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Re: [SCA-Archery] (unknown)

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  • Jonathas
    Jon, My concern would also be with the crouching end as there are more then a few people who can not do that for many different reasons. The easiest
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 19, 2013
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      Jon,

      My concern would also be with the "crouching" end as there are more then a few people who can not do that for many different reasons.  The easiest solution might be to eliminate that one end, but the other would be to provide a second optional stance for it, IE call it "Low Window" or "Bent" or something the choice is stand with either the knees bent to near 90 degrees (crouching) or with the waist bent to near 90 degrees (leaning over).

      Just an idea...
      Jonathas


      On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 4:26 PM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
       

      Here is my latest addition to the possible SSAC shoots. Your comments will be greatly appreciated. 

      Thank you 

      Jon
      ****************************

      Random Stance Competition

      (Draft 4/18/13)

       

      The Random Stance Competition is shot from six different stances which are chosen at random by the marshal in charge from a predetermined set of stances. By “stances”, it is meant either standing, kneeling, sitting, etc. The purpose of this competition is to test the ability of archers to shoot from different stances.

       

      The “stances” are:

      1)    Standing. 

      2)    Kneeling, on one or both knees.

      3)    Sitting, posterior on ground.

      4)    Parthian, back toward the target and toes pointed away from target, rotate torso and shoot back over your shoulder.

      5)    Crouching, both knees bent at approximately a ninety degree angle.

      6)    Twister, feet pointing the opposite way they normally would (a right handed archer’s feet would point left). 

       

      The bow should not be drawn until the archer is facing the target.

       

      If an archer, due to a disability or injury, can not assume a stance, they may assume one of the other stances which is most similar to it with the approval of the marshal. At the decision of the marshal in charge of the competition, the archers may shoot one at a time or as groups depending upon the number of archers.

       

      The distance is 20 yards.

       

      Ends. There six ends of six arrows, each shot from a different stance, six arrows from each stance. The marshal in charge randomly draws a stance from a container of the six stances, announces the stance and then removes that stance from the container. This is repeated for each end. The arrows are scored at the finish of each end.

       

       Target. The roundel target is the same as a Period IKAC target, a 6cm (2.4”) peg, 24cm (9.6”) roundel, with a 60cm (23.6”) outer circle. The peg, roundel and circle may be of any contrasting colors.

       

      Additional period style decoration may be added to the target as long as it does not make aiming or scoring difficult. Such decoration is strongly encouraged, but not required.

      For those who wish to stop by a print shop, here is a PDF designed for large format printers with the target face pre-drawn.

       

       Scoring. The peg is five points, the roundel is three points and the circle is one point. Arrows touching the line count as the higher score. There is a maximum possible score of 180 points.

       

       Youth division. The distance for the youth division is fifteen yards.

       

      Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf

       

       

       


    • jdrago75
      There is also the retreating on horseback stance, which is heels on the line, knees slightly bent. I find that to be an easier position for people with knee
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 19, 2013
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        There is also the "retreating on horseback" stance, which is heels on the line, knees slightly bent. I find that to be an easier position for people with knee problems but not so much for people with back issues. 

        -William Douglas


        On Apr 19, 2013, at 8:25 AM, Jonathas <Jonathas@...> wrote:

         

        Jon,

        My concern would also be with the "crouching" end as there are more then a few people who can not do that for many different reasons.  The easiest solution might be to eliminate that one end, but the other would be to provide a second optional stance for it, IE call it "Low Window" or "Bent" or something the choice is stand with either the knees bent to near 90 degrees (crouching) or with the waist bent to near 90 degrees (leaning over).

        Just an idea...
        Jonathas


        On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 4:26 PM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
         

        Here is my latest addition to the possible SSAC shoots. Your comments will be greatly appreciated. 

        Thank you 

        Jon
        ****************************

        Random Stance Competition

        (Draft 4/18/13)

         

        The Random Stance Competition is shot from six different stances which are chosen at random by the marshal in charge from a predetermined set of stances. By “stances”, it is meant either standing, kneeling, sitting, etc. The purpose of this competition is to test the ability of archers to shoot from different stances.

         

        The “stances” are:

        1)    Standing. 

        2)    Kneeling, on one or both knees.

        3)    Sitting, posterior on ground.

        4)    Parthian, back toward the target and toes pointed away from target, rotate torso and shoot back over your shoulder.

        5)    Crouching, both knees bent at approximately a ninety degree angle.

        6)    Twister, feet pointing the opposite way they normally would (a right handed archer’s feet would point left). 

         

        The bow should not be drawn until the archer is facing the target.

         

        If an archer, due to a disability or injury, can not assume a stance, they may assume one of the other stances which is most similar to it with the approval of the marshal. At the decision of the marshal in charge of the competition, the archers may shoot one at a time or as groups depending upon the number of archers.

         

        The distance is 20 yards.

         

        Ends. There six ends of six arrows, each shot from a different stance, six arrows from each stance. The marshal in charge randomly draws a stance from a container of the six stances, announces the stance and then removes that stance from the container. This is repeated for each end. The arrows are scored at the finish of each end.

         

         Target. The roundel target is the same as a Period IKAC target, a 6cm (2.4”) peg, 24cm (9.6”) roundel, with a 60cm (23.6”) outer circle. The peg, roundel and circle may be of any contrasting colors.

         

        Additional period style decoration may be added to the target as long as it does not make aiming or scoring difficult. Such decoration is strongly encouraged, but not required.

        For those who wish to stop by a print shop, here is a PDF designed for large format printers with the target face pre-drawn.

         

         Scoring. The peg is five points, the roundel is three points and the circle is one point. Arrows touching the line count as the higher score. There is a maximum possible score of 180 points.

         

         Youth division. The distance for the youth division is fifteen yards.

         

        Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf

         

         

         


      • Dave Poulin
        An option for those of us with bad knees might be a T seat. Basically what I mean is a flat board on top of a thick dowel or another flat board that forms a
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 19, 2013
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          An option for those of us with bad knees might be a ‘T’ seat.  Basically what I mean is a flat board on top of a thick dowel or another flat board that forms a T – not a comfortable seat by any stretch of the imagination so no one could complain about that shooter having a ‘comfort’ advantage… 

           

          Antony

           

          From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonathas
          Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 9:25 AM
          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] (unknown)

           

           

          Jon,

          My concern would also be with the "crouching" end as there are more then a few people who can not do that for many different reasons.  The easiest solution might be to eliminate that one end, but the other would be to provide a second optional stance for it, IE call it "Low Window" or "Bent" or something the choice is stand with either the knees bent to near 90 degrees (crouching) or with the waist bent to near 90 degrees (leaning over).

          Just an idea...

          Jonathas

           

          On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 4:26 PM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:

           

          Here is my latest addition to the possible SSAC shoots. Your comments will be greatly appreciated. 

           

          Thank you 

           

          Jon

          ****************************

           

          Random Stance Competition

          (Draft 4/18/13)

           

          The Random Stance Competition is shot from six different stances which are chosen at random by the marshal in charge from a predetermined set of stances. By “stances”, it is meant either standing, kneeling, sitting, etc. The purpose of this competition is to test the ability of archers to shoot from different stances.

           

          The “stances” are:

          1)    Standing. 

          2)    Kneeling, on one or both knees.

          3)    Sitting, posterior on ground.

          4)    Parthian, back toward the target and toes pointed away from target, rotate torso and shoot back over your shoulder.

          5)    Crouching, both knees bent at approximately a ninety degree angle.

          6)    Twister, feet pointing the opposite way they normally would (a right handed archer’s feet would point left). 

           

          The bow should not be drawn until the archer is facing the target.

           

          If an archer, due to a disability or injury, can not assume a stance, they may assume one of the other stances which is most similar to it with the approval of the marshal. At the decision of the marshal in charge of the competition, the archers may shoot one at a time or as groups depending upon the number of archers.

           

          The distance is 20 yards.

           

          Ends. There six ends of six arrows, each shot from a different stance, six arrows from each stance. The marshal in charge randomly draws a stance from a container of the six stances, announces the stance and then removes that stance from the container. This is repeated for each end. The arrows are scored at the finish of each end.

           

           Target. The roundel target is the same as a Period IKAC target, a 6cm (2.4”) peg, 24cm (9.6”) roundel, with a 60cm (23.6”) outer circle. The peg, roundel and circle may be of any contrasting colors.

           

          Additional period style decoration may be added to the target as long as it does not make aiming or scoring difficult. Such decoration is strongly encouraged, but not required.

          For those who wish to stop by a print shop, here is a PDF designed for large format printers with the target face pre-drawn.

           

           Scoring. The peg is five points, the roundel is three points and the circle is one point. Arrows touching the line count as the higher score. There is a maximum possible score of 180 points.

           

           Youth division. The distance for the youth division is fifteen yards.

           

          Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf

           

           

           

           

        • John Edgerton
          The current draft of the Random Stance has a change to the crouching. 5) Crouching, both knees bent at approximately a ninety degree angle. (The archer
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 19, 2013
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            The current draft of the Random Stance has a change to the crouching. 

            "5)    Crouching, both knees bent at approximately a ninety degree angle. (The archer only has to crouch while aiming and releasing. They may stand while nocking and drawing.)"

            I am 71 with arthritis and a bad back and a bad knee and I can just barely manage the stance.  But, I can do it.  

            However, if anyone can come up with a good replacement we can either use that or just drop the "Crouching" and change it to five stances. 

            Jon




            From: Jonathas <Jonathas@...>
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, April 19, 2013 6:25:21 AM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] (unknown)

             

            Jon,

            My concern would also be with the "crouching" end as there are more then a few people who can not do that for many different reasons.  The easiest solution might be to eliminate that one end, but the other would be to provide a second optional stance for it, IE call it "Low Window" or "Bent" or something the choice is stand with either the knees bent to near 90 degrees (crouching) or with the waist bent to near 90 degrees (leaning over).

            Just an idea...
            Jonathas
          • Rusty McMillan
            Everyone, don t forget the portion of the rules that states: If an archer, due to a disability or injury, can not assume a stance, they may assume one of the
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 20, 2013
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              Everyone, don't forget the portion of the rules that states:

              "If an archer, due to a disability or injury, can not assume a stance, they may assume one of the other stances which is most similar to it with the approval of the marshal."

              This handles the fact that no matter what five or six stances we choose, somebody won't be able to achieve them all.

              Randal

              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
              >
              > The current draft of the Random Stance has a change to the crouching.
              >
              > "5) Crouching, both knees bent at approximately a ninety degree angle. (The
              > archer only has to crouch while aiming and releasing. They may stand while
              > nocking and drawing.)"
              >
              > I am 71 with arthritis and a bad back and a bad knee and I can just barely
              > manage the stance. But, I can do it.
              >
              > However, if anyone can come up with a good replacement we can either use that or
              > just drop the "Crouching" and change it to five stances.
              >
              > Jon
            • John R. Edgerton
              Yes,I put that option in the rules in case anyone was unable to assume any of the positions. However, if the majority feel that the crouching stance is too
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 21, 2013
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                Yes,I put that option in the rules in case anyone was unable to assume any of the positions. However, if the majority feel that the crouching stance is too difficult,I can drop it. The closest stance to crouching would be standing.

                However,it is possible that some archers that are capable of shooting in that stance might opt for standing in order to get a better score. Any thoughts on this?

                Jon

                Rusty McMillan <randal_of_camusfearna@...> wrote:

                 

                Everyone, don't forget the portion of the rules that states:

                "If an archer, due to a disability or injury, can not assume a stance, they may assume one of the other stances which is most similar to it with the approval of the marshal."

                This handles the fact that no matter what five or six stances we choose, somebody won't be able to achieve them all.

                Randal

                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                >
                > The current draft of the Random Stance has a change to the crouching.
                >
                > "5) Crouching, both knees bent at approximately a ninety degree angle. (The
                > archer only has to crouch while aiming and releasing. They may stand while
                > nocking and drawing.)"
                >
                > I am 71 with arthritis and a bad back and a bad knee and I can just barely
                > manage the stance. But, I can do it.
                >
                > However, if anyone can come up with a good replacement we can either use that or
                > just drop the "Crouching" and change it to five stances.
                >
                > Jon

              • John R. Edgerton
                I have found period examples of two other stances. The first from medieval India has the archer standing one leg while the foot of the other leg is pressed
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 21, 2013
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                  I have found period examples of two other stances. The first from medieval India has the archer standing one leg while the foot of the other leg is pressed against that knee.

                  The second,also from India is seated on the ground with the legs crossed and the feet resting on top of the opposite thigh. A basic Yoga position.

                  The one leg stance could be modified to just standing on one leg with the other not touching the ground. This stance to be held while aiming and loosing. Otherwise it could present problems for cocking crossbows.

                  Jon

                  "John R. Edgerton" <sirjon1@...> wrote:

                   

                  Yes,I put that option in the rules in case anyone was unable to assume any of the positions. However, if the majority feel that the crouching stance is too difficult,I can drop it. The closest stance to crouching would be standing.

                  However,it is possible that some archers that are capable of shooting in that stance might opt for standing in order to get a better score. Any thoughts on this?

                  Jon

                  Rusty McMillan <randal_of_camusfearna@...> wrote:

                   

                  Everyone, don't forget the portion of the rules that states:

                  "If an archer, due to a disability or injury, can not assume a stance, they may assume one of the other stances which is most similar to it with the approval of the marshal."

                  This handles the fact that no matter what five or six stances we choose, somebody won't be able to achieve them all.

                  Randal

                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The current draft of the Random Stance has a change to the crouching.
                  >
                  > "5) Crouching, both knees bent at approximately a ninety degree angle. (The
                  > archer only has to crouch while aiming and releasing. They may stand while
                  > nocking and drawing.)"
                  >
                  > I am 71 with arthritis and a bad back and a bad knee and I can just barely
                  > manage the stance. But, I can do it.
                  >
                  > However, if anyone can come up with a good replacement we can either use that or
                  > just drop the "Crouching" and change it to five stances.
                  >
                  > Jon

                • Rusty McMillan
                  Jon, While I will of course go along with whatever the majority decides, I don t feel the crouching stance needs to be eliminated. Those who have difficulty
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 21, 2013
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                    Jon,

                    While I will of course go along with whatever the majority decides, I
                    don't feel the crouching stance needs to be eliminated. Those who have
                    difficulty bending the knees to 90 degrees could bend as much as is
                    comfortable/safe for them.

                    As for the potential scenario you describe of archers opting out of
                    crouching just to gain an advantage, I prefer to believe that in
                    archery, as in all SCA martial activities, we are on our honor to treat
                    chivalrously with other competitors, and I would hope that such behavior
                    would not occur.

                    Randal


                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "John R. Edgerton" wrote:
                    >
                    > Yes,I put that option in the rules in case anyone was unable to assume
                    any of the positions. However, if the majority feel that the crouching
                    stance is too difficult,I can drop it. The closest stance to crouching
                    would be standing.
                    >
                    > However,it is possible that some archers that are capable of shooting
                    in that stance might opt for standing in order to get a better score.
                    Any thoughts on this?
                    >
                    > Jon
                    >
                    > Rusty McMillan randal_of_camusfearna@... wrote:
                    >
                    > >Everyone, don't forget the portion of the rules that states:
                    > >
                    > >"If an archer, due to a disability or injury, can not assume a
                    stance, they may assume one of the other stances which is most similar
                    to it with the approval of the marshal."
                    > >
                    > >This handles the fact that no matter what five or six stances we
                    choose, somebody won't be able to achieve them all.
                    > >
                    > >Randal
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