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Re: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

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  • William Davis
    Giovanna, While I agree with your sentiment, I will have to disagree with your request.  It has nothing to do with you, or Eastern vs Western Archery, it has
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 15 1:30 PM
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      Giovanna,

      While I agree with your sentiment, I will have to disagree with your request.  It has nothing to do with you, or Eastern vs Western Archery, it has to do with safety concerns.  If the range Marshal(s) sees something that does not look correct, or possibly unsafe, he/she is obligated to step in and verify things.  The simple solution is that when you, or any other archers, who may use an unusual  bow and/or style, at check in, make sure that you mention this to the Marshal, so that he/she is aware of the altered style, then there is no need for any interruption.

      Gwilym


      --- On Fri, 3/15/13, Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...> wrote:

      From: Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...>
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter
      To: "(Unknown)" <archers@...>, "(Unknown)" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Friday, March 15, 2013, 1:05 PM

       

      Dear Western style archers,

      When a new person of whom you have not seen before comes out to the range with an Eastern bow and they seem to be doing things "differently" please allow them the time, space and consideration to shoot in their style. If you have questions save them for after the round of the shoot as tapping and double teaming the person and Literally standing over them asking them if they are doing it right will only make them flustered but also wish they had never bothered to use your range. Shooting styles are not all the same. Please allow for archers to shoot in their preferred method.  http://www.kyudo.org/html/articles/shichido_eng1.html there is an article on a different shooting style.

      I will certainly never use a new bow on range without others who shoot in the same style with me again.

      Giovanna,
      One very flustered mounted archer

    • Misasai
      I am not sure the issue is safety but consideration of others on the range. Giovanna does not cite safety but the annoyance of others invading the space of a
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 15 2:26 PM
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        I am not sure the issue is safety but consideration of others on the range.  Giovanna does not cite safety but the annoyance of others invading the space of a workout/practice. I have had people come up to an archery lesson I am giving and tell me I am doing it all wrong. I am a level 4 NTS coach and I am doing it wrong… I usually have to just shake my head and move on. I understand that we see things differently. People are always happy that they have learned something new and they think that what they were just taught was gifts from the gods. I am not focused on my wrongness because that is not what I am working on. I also have to give these people the chance to come to their own conclusion that interrupting my lesson/practice is rude and sooner or later they will be in the same position and I hope they will respond in kind.

         

        I agree with you, Giovanna, we need to tolerate other archery forms. Some days people just don’t get it.

         

        James Everglad.

        Those are not complete thought, but a start

         

        From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Davis
        Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 1:30 PM
        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

         

         

        Giovanna,

         

        While I agree with your sentiment, I will have to disagree with your request.  It has nothing to do with you, or Eastern vs Western Archery, it has to do with safety concerns.  If the range Marshal(s) sees something that does not look correct, or possibly unsafe, he/she is obligated to step in and verify things.  The simple solution is that when you, or any other archers, who may use an unusual  bow and/or style, at check in, make sure that you mention this to the Marshal, so that he/she is aware of the altered style, then there is no need for any interruption.

        Gwilym


        --- On Fri, 3/15/13, Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...> wrote:


        From: Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...>
        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter
        To: "(Unknown)" <archers@...>, "(Unknown)" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Friday, March 15, 2013, 1:05 PM

         

        Dear Western style archers,

        When a new person of whom you have not seen before comes out to the range with an Eastern bow and they seem to be doing things "differently" please allow them the time, space and consideration to shoot in their style. If you have questions save them for after the round of the shoot as tapping and double teaming the person and Literally standing over them asking them if they are doing it right will only make them flustered but also wish they had never bothered to use your range. Shooting styles are not all the same. Please allow for archers to shoot in their preferred method.  http://www.kyudo.org/html/articles/shichido_eng1.html there is an article on a different shooting style.

        I will certainly never use a new bow on range without others who shoot in the same style with me again.

        Giovanna,
        One very flustered mounted archer

      • Dawn Ratz
        I had barely taken a breath and tried to move into the first stance when I was tapped and interrupted. Fluster any one to the point they can t think and stand
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 15 2:34 PM
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          I had barely taken a breath and tried to move into the first stance when I was tapped and interrupted.  Fluster any one to the point they can't think and stand over them and there are bound to be some issues. I should have just stepped back and not shot at all. But then hindsight is 20-20. I had spoken about my experience with another female yumi archer and she had been interrupted in her stance and time on range as well. If I had stayed at war I would have gone back to the range with her. If I am being unsafe by all means let me know. But merely holding my bow and taking a breath does not denote a saftey issue.

          Gio

        • Taslen
          Gio, As someone with limited Kyudo experience was the stance one that would normally be considered incorrect in SCA archery IE one foot not straddling the
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 15 2:40 PM
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            Gio,

            As someone with limited Kyudo experience was the stance one that would normally be considered "incorrect" in SCA archery IE one foot not straddling the line?

            Gaelen
            Midrealm 



            From: Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...>
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:34 PM
            Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

             
            I had barely taken a breath and tried to move into the first stance when I was tapped and interrupted.  Fluster any one to the point they can't think and stand over them and there are bound to be some issues. I should have just stepped back and not shot at all. But then hindsight is 20-20. I had spoken about my experience with another female yumi archer and she had been interrupted in her stance and time on range as well. If I had stayed at war I would have gone back to the range with her. If I am being unsafe by all means let me know. But merely holding my bow and taking a breath does not denote a saftey issue.
            Gio


          • Caterina Fortuna
            Ensuring basic safety is the marshal s primary job. In this game we play, giving a bit of courtesy will get you a lot more in return. May I suggest in the
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 15 2:49 PM
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              Ensuring basic safety is the marshal's primary job.

              In this game we play, giving a bit of courtesy will get you a lot more in return. May I suggest in the future that you check in with the archery marshal on the range before you shoot. If you briefly explain your shooting style and show them your equipment, there would be no need to bother you while shooting. And they would keep others from disturbing you.

              My tip: be knowledgeable, confident, and display safety at all times. Possibly carry a sheet showing the positions of your (spiritual) method of shooting. Also, while not mandatory in every kingdom, please be knowledgeable about the parts of your equipment. If you show up with knot(s) in your string, you should know whether or not it is a bowyers knot.

              SCA archers seem to heckle and tease each other while shooting, so when anyone new comes to the range some of that will trickle down. I've seen it in multiple Kingdoms. Personally, I prefer a quiet range, but have had to accommodate for the noisy shooters.

              All too often, even at our local stores' ranges, I've had to stop shooting and give lessons to kids and adults so that they would stop pointing their arrows at the back of my head while drawing. Nothing kills my (meditative) archery buzz like arrows not pointed down range, shooting across several lanes unintentionally, dry firing, or shooting at me. Don't even joke about shooting me. Besides, the paperwork on that would be... Yeah, just don't go there.

              Yours in Service to the Dream,
              Signora Caterina Fortuna
              AnTir

            • Dawn Ratz
              Yes, that was the beginning and I tried to explain I was getting to straddling the line in a moment as I was stepping up to it when the poking began. I tried
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 15 3:38 PM
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                Yes, that was the beginning and I tried to explain I was getting to straddling the line in a moment as I was stepping up to it when the poking began. I tried to explain what I was doing but that is very hard with two men poking and asking you the same questions over and over at once without allowing you to answer.

                Gio

                On Mar 15, 2013 5:40 PM, "Taslen" <taslen2000@...> wrote:
                 

                Gio,

                As someone with limited Kyudo experience was the stance one that would normally be considered "incorrect" in SCA archery IE one foot not straddling the line?

                Gaelen
                Midrealm 



                From: Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...>
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:34 PM
                Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                 
                I had barely taken a breath and tried to move into the first stance when I was tapped and interrupted.  Fluster any one to the point they can't think and stand over them and there are bound to be some issues. I should have just stepped back and not shot at all. But then hindsight is 20-20. I had spoken about my experience with another female yumi archer and she had been interrupted in her stance and time on range as well. If I had stayed at war I would have gone back to the range with her. If I am being unsafe by all means let me know. But merely holding my bow and taking a breath does not denote a saftey issue.
                Gio


              • Taslen
                sounds like too much help . ________________________________ From: Dawn Ratz To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 15,
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 15 3:50 PM
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                  sounds like too much "help".


                  From: Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...>
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 6:38 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                   
                  Yes, that was the beginning and I tried to explain I was getting to straddling the line in a moment as I was stepping up to it when the poking began. I tried to explain what I was doing but that is very hard with two men poking and asking you the same questions over and over at once without allowing you to answer.
                  Gio
                  On Mar 15, 2013 5:40 PM, "Taslen" <taslen2000@...> wrote:
                   
                  Gio,

                  As someone with limited Kyudo experience was the stance one that would normally be considered "incorrect" in SCA archery IE one foot not straddling the line?

                  Gaelen
                  Midrealm 



                  From: Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...>
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:34 PM
                  Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                   
                  I had barely taken a breath and tried to move into the first stance when I was tapped and interrupted.  Fluster any one to the point they can't think and stand over them and there are bound to be some issues. I should have just stepped back and not shot at all. But then hindsight is 20-20. I had spoken about my experience with another female yumi archer and she had been interrupted in her stance and time on range as well. If I had stayed at war I would have gone back to the range with her. If I am being unsafe by all means let me know. But merely holding my bow and taking a breath does not denote a saftey issue.
                  Gio




                • Taslen
                  Agreed Gaelen O Gradaigh Midrealm ________________________________ From: Caterina Fortuna To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 15 3:52 PM
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                    Agreed

                    Gaelen O'Gradaigh
                    Midrealm


                    From: Caterina Fortuna <cat4tuna@...>
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:49 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                     
                    Ensuring basic safety is the marshal's primary job.
                    In this game we play, giving a bit of courtesy will get you a lot more in return. May I suggest in the future that you check in with the archery marshal on the range before you shoot. If you briefly explain your shooting style and show them your equipment, there would be no need to bother you while shooting. And they would keep others from disturbing you.
                    My tip: be knowledgeable, confident, and display safety at all times. Possibly carry a sheet showing the positions of your (spiritual) method of shooting. Also, while not mandatory in every kingdom, please be knowledgeable about the parts of your equipment. If you show up with knot(s) in your string, you should know whether or not it is a bowyers knot.
                    SCA archers seem to heckle and tease each other while shooting, so when anyone new comes to the range some of that will trickle down. I've seen it in multiple Kingdoms. Personally, I prefer a quiet range, but have had to accommodate for the noisy shooters.
                    All too often, even at our local stores' ranges, I've had to stop shooting and give lessons to kids and adults so that they would stop pointing their arrows at the back of my head while drawing. Nothing kills my (meditative) archery buzz like arrows not pointed down range, shooting across several lanes unintentionally, dry firing, or shooting at me. Don't even joke about shooting me. Besides, the paperwork on that would be... Yeah, just don't go there.
                    Yours in Service to the Dream,
                    Signora Caterina Fortuna
                    AnTir


                  • Ken Dolphin
                    Had you loaded up an arrow prior to straddling the line? KOS An Tir ... From: Dawn Ratz To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:38 PM
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 15 5:00 PM
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                      Had you loaded up an arrow prior to straddling the line?
                       
                      KOS
                      An Tir
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Dawn Ratz
                      Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:38 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                       

                      Yes, that was the beginning and I tried to explain I was getting to straddling the line in a moment as I was stepping up to it when the poking began. I tried to explain what I was doing but that is very hard with two men poking and asking you the same questions over and over at once without allowing you to answer.

                      Gio

                      On Mar 15, 2013 5:40 PM, "Taslen" <taslen2000@...> wrote:
                       

                      Gio,

                      As someone with limited Kyudo experience was the stance one that would normally be considered "incorrect" in SCA archery IE one foot not straddling the line?

                      Gaelen
                      Midrealm 



                      From: Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...>
                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:34 PM
                      Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                       
                      I had barely taken a breath and tried to move into the first stance when I was tapped and interrupted.  Fluster any one to the point they can't think and stand over them and there are bound to be some issues. I should have just stepped back and not shot at all. But then hindsight is 20-20. I had spoken about my experience with another female yumi archer and she had been interrupted in her stance and time on range as well. If I had stayed at war I would have gone back to the range with her. If I am being unsafe by all means let me know. But merely holding my bow and taking a breath does not denote a saftey issue.
                      Gio


                    • Ranif
                      Giovanna If you are using a bow of an SCA approved type, the bow has been accepted by the TAM, you are not in a stance or draw position that violates safety,
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 15 5:10 PM
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                        Giovanna
                        If you are using a bow of an SCA approved type, the bow
                        has been accepted by the TAM, you are not in a stance
                        or draw position that violates safety, event rules or
                        courtesy, I find a gently voiced, "Bugger off!", is
                        effective with interferers. But then, I'm older with
                        diminishing tolerance levels.
                        Ranif

                        On 16/03/2013 7:05 AM, Dawn Ratz wrote:
                        > When a new person of whom you have not seen before
                        > comes out to the range with an Eastern bow and they
                        > seem to be doing things "differently" please allow them
                        > the time, space and consideration to shoot in their
                        > style.
                        --
                        Nullus anxietas amicus
                        Carpe argillam
                      • Dawn Ratz
                        No, I did not begin to load till I just grew fustrated and just straddled the line and dropped the rest of the steps. I did begin trying to load it but I had
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 15 5:21 PM
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                          No, I did not begin to load till I just grew fustrated and just straddled the line and dropped the rest of the steps. I did begin trying to load it but I had people leaning over me on both sides that I could not turn. Thankfully once I started as if to load they moved and I could turn, straddle and load. By that point I was so flustered I am amazed I even got it nocked.

                          You would think shooting from the ground an hour after shooting from rodeo prancing pony who was not listening to me at all would be easier LOL
                          It however was not.

                          Next time I will bring documentation and speak to who ever is running the range.

                          Gio

                          On Mar 15, 2013 8:00 PM, "Ken Dolphin" <kldolphin@...> wrote:
                           

                          Had you loaded up an arrow prior to straddling the line?
                           
                          KOS
                          An Tir
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Dawn Ratz
                          Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:38 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                           

                          Yes, that was the beginning and I tried to explain I was getting to straddling the line in a moment as I was stepping up to it when the poking began. I tried to explain what I was doing but that is very hard with two men poking and asking you the same questions over and over at once without allowing you to answer.

                          Gio

                          On Mar 15, 2013 5:40 PM, "Taslen" <taslen2000@...> wrote:
                           

                          Gio,

                          As someone with limited Kyudo experience was the stance one that would normally be considered "incorrect" in SCA archery IE one foot not straddling the line?

                          Gaelen
                          Midrealm 



                          From: Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...>
                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:34 PM
                          Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                           
                          I had barely taken a breath and tried to move into the first stance when I was tapped and interrupted.  Fluster any one to the point they can't think and stand over them and there are bound to be some issues. I should have just stepped back and not shot at all. But then hindsight is 20-20. I had spoken about my experience with another female yumi archer and she had been interrupted in her stance and time on range as well. If I had stayed at war I would have gone back to the range with her. If I am being unsafe by all means let me know. But merely holding my bow and taking a breath does not denote a saftey issue.
                          Gio


                        • Ken Dolphin
                          Doesn t sound like any SCA range that I have ever been a part of. We have a couple of yumis, horsebows shot with or without thumb ring, many recurves,
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 15 5:48 PM
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                            Doesn't sound like any SCA range that I have ever been a part of. We have a couple of yumis, horsebows shot with or without thumb ring, many recurves, longbows, period longbows, and a few crossbows and period crossbows. All are able to shoot and it is up to the range marshal to make sure that safe procedures are followed.
                             
                            I hope you get everything cleared with the local group.
                             
                            KOS
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Dawn Ratz
                            Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:21 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                             

                            No, I did not begin to load till I just grew fustrated and just straddled the line and dropped the rest of the steps. I did begin trying to load it but I had people leaning over me on both sides that I could not turn. Thankfully once I started as if to load they moved and I could turn, straddle and load. By that point I was so flustered I am amazed I even got it nocked.

                            You would think shooting from the ground an hour after shooting from rodeo prancing pony who was not listening to me at all would be easier LOL
                            It however was not.

                            Next time I will bring documentation and speak to who ever is running the range.

                            Gio

                            On Mar 15, 2013 8:00 PM, "Ken Dolphin" <kldolphin@...> wrote:
                             

                            Had you loaded up an arrow prior to straddling the line?
                             
                            KOS
                            An Tir
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Dawn Ratz
                            Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:38 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                             

                            Yes, that was the beginning and I tried to explain I was getting to straddling the line in a moment as I was stepping up to it when the poking began. I tried to explain what I was doing but that is very hard with two men poking and asking you the same questions over and over at once without allowing you to answer.

                            Gio

                            On Mar 15, 2013 5:40 PM, "Taslen" <taslen2000@...> wrote:
                             

                            Gio,

                            As someone with limited Kyudo experience was the stance one that would normally be considered "incorrect" in SCA archery IE one foot not straddling the line?

                            Gaelen
                            Midrealm 



                            From: Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...>
                            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:34 PM
                            Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                             
                            I had barely taken a breath and tried to move into the first stance when I was tapped and interrupted.  Fluster any one to the point they can't think and stand over them and there are bound to be some issues. I should have just stepped back and not shot at all. But then hindsight is 20-20. I had spoken about my experience with another female yumi archer and she had been interrupted in her stance and time on range as well. If I had stayed at war I would have gone back to the range with her. If I am being unsafe by all means let me know. But merely holding my bow and taking a breath does not denote a saftey issue.
                            Gio


                          • Dawn Ratz
                            Sadly it was not a local group. If it had been a local group I would have been more able to pull them aside and explained what I was doing.
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 15 5:52 PM
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                              Sadly it was not a local group. If it had been a local group I would have been more able to pull them aside and explained what I was doing.

                              On Mar 15, 2013 8:48 PM, "Ken Dolphin" <kldolphin@...> wrote:
                               

                              Doesn't sound like any SCA range that I have ever been a part of. We have a couple of yumis, horsebows shot with or without thumb ring, many recurves, longbows, period longbows, and a few crossbows and period crossbows. All are able to shoot and it is up to the range marshal to make sure that safe procedures are followed.
                               
                              I hope you get everything cleared with the local group.
                               
                              KOS
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Dawn Ratz
                              Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:21 PM
                              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                               

                              No, I did not begin to load till I just grew fustrated and just straddled the line and dropped the rest of the steps. I did begin trying to load it but I had people leaning over me on both sides that I could not turn. Thankfully once I started as if to load they moved and I could turn, straddle and load. By that point I was so flustered I am amazed I even got it nocked.

                              You would think shooting from the ground an hour after shooting from rodeo prancing pony who was not listening to me at all would be easier LOL
                              It however was not.

                              Next time I will bring documentation and speak to who ever is running the range.

                              Gio

                              On Mar 15, 2013 8:00 PM, "Ken Dolphin" <kldolphin@...> wrote:
                               

                              Had you loaded up an arrow prior to straddling the line?
                               
                              KOS
                              An Tir
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Dawn Ratz
                              Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:38 PM
                              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                               

                              Yes, that was the beginning and I tried to explain I was getting to straddling the line in a moment as I was stepping up to it when the poking began. I tried to explain what I was doing but that is very hard with two men poking and asking you the same questions over and over at once without allowing you to answer.

                              Gio

                              On Mar 15, 2013 5:40 PM, "Taslen" <taslen2000@...> wrote:
                               

                              Gio,

                              As someone with limited Kyudo experience was the stance one that would normally be considered "incorrect" in SCA archery IE one foot not straddling the line?

                              Gaelen
                              Midrealm 



                              From: Dawn Ratz <dawn.ratz@...>
                              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:34 PM
                              Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Dear Western style archers- an open letter

                               
                              I had barely taken a breath and tried to move into the first stance when I was tapped and interrupted.  Fluster any one to the point they can't think and stand over them and there are bound to be some issues. I should have just stepped back and not shot at all. But then hindsight is 20-20. I had spoken about my experience with another female yumi archer and she had been interrupted in her stance and time on range as well. If I had stayed at war I would have gone back to the range with her. If I am being unsafe by all means let me know. But merely holding my bow and taking a breath does not denote a saftey issue.
                              Gio


                            • Steven Casort
                              Where on earth did this happen?!? They were very rude and I would not wish to shoot at that range. In Service Ihon MacLucas Ex CAID Minister of Archers aka
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 15 8:09 PM
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                                Where on earth did this happen?!?
                                They were very rude and I would not wish to shoot at that range.

                                In Service
                                Ihon MacLucas
                                Ex CAID Minister of Archers
                                aka Steve Casort
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