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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: What to do when you are always overspined?

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  • Catherine Townson
    Thank you - this is incredibly helpful. I will work on this next time I can get to a range. I agree, this is a wonderful group of people. Thank you all.
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 5, 2013
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      Thank you - this is incredibly helpful. I will work on this next time
      I can get to a range.

      I agree, this is a wonderful group of people. Thank you all.

      -Cate.

      On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 1:06 PM, The Greys <cogworks@...> wrote:
      > Cate,
      > You have received some very good advice here about your aiming issue. However, it strikes me that the main issue is your aiming technique. Being an archer geek (Yeah, like I'm the ONLY one on this list!?!) I have recruve, reflex/deflex, english longbows and a horse bow I shoot. Only the recurves are close to center shot bows. Having 14 bows, I also have at least 14 sets of arrows matched to the bows. However, and being lazy, I often shoot seriously over spined arrows out of some of the bows. But I still hit what I aim at.
      >
      > So here is a trick to try before you make up a new set of arrows, I use this in my beginning archery classes. With your bow hand index finger point at the target where you want to hit. With your draw hand, put it at your anchor point and lift your thumb. The top of your thumb and your index finger should be lined up. If not, you are not (or would not if actually holding a bow with an arrow drawn) be sighting down the arrow shaft. Where you point the tip is irrelevant if your eye is not aligned with the back of the shaft. You will find, as was mentioned elsewhere on this list, that the raised thumb of your draw hand does not lineup under your eye if your head is held vertically. A slight tilt towards your draw hand puts your eye just above your thumb and in line of sight.
      >
      > Of course stance and draw form also are major contributors. Start with both feet perpendicular to a line to the target, about shoulder width apart. When you draw, your body should be in alignment such that your bow arm, shoulders, through your draw arm to the elbow are all in line both vertically and horizontally. This is a good basic starting position. As you develop your shot you can experiment with open and closed stances.
      >
      > I see lots of beginning archers that do not have their arms in alignment as mentioned above. The final thing many beginning and experienced archers do is have the draw hand fly away from the face upon release. If your draw hand moves at all it should continue moving backwards so that it finishes by touching your rear shoulder. It is much like drawing through your anchor point, release just as you touch your anchor point. Personally my draw hand stays at my anchor point in what is called the dead release. When you release the string you don't actually release the string. Instead you simply stop holding it. The weight of your bow will pull the string off of your fingers.
      >
      > Good luck and practice, practice, practice. That's really how you become a better archer. But remember, productive practice is not just shooting lots of arrows or shooting Royal Rounds all afternoon. Good practice takes one aspect of the draw, anchor, release of a shot and works on just one item. After you feel you've got that worked out, move to the next item. Of course in between just shooting to have fun allows your body to "remember" some of what it learned in your structured practices. Good instinctive shooters depend upon a lot of muscle memory, how a good shot feels. But that developed feel only comes from good structured practice.
      >
      > Good luck and welcome to the BEST group of folks in the SCA!
      > kog
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Catherine Townson <cate.townson@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Hello all,
      >>
      >> I tried looking through the history, but didn't see an answer to my
      >> question.
      >>
      >> From everything I've read, one should be able to aim the tip of the arrow
      >> at the centre of the target, adjusting vertically for range. In order to
      >> hit the target, I have to aim far to the left. At 20 yards maybe 2-3 feet
      >> to the left of the target. Googling my problem, it appears my arrows are
      >> very overspined. I shoot left handed.
      >>
      >> I shoot a 25# recurve bow. My draw length is 26". At approximately 2#
      >> loss per inch, it means my draw weight is effectively 21#. I use
      >> an approximately 28" shaft length. I have been unable to find wood
      >> shafts lower than a 30-35# spine, mine are currently 35-40# (this was the
      >> lowest available at the time) but I have some 30-35# shafts on the way.
      >> I'm using a fast flight string (which I believe adds 5 lbs to the
      >> suggested spine weight). I am currently using 70 gr. points, which is what
      >> I was told to use, but I have 100 and 125 gr points on hand.
      >>
      >> I'd like to get a better idea of what to do before making my new arrows. I
      >> can't be the only one with this problem. Do I just consistently aim at a
      >> point to the left and hope to upgrade to a heavier bow in a couple of
      >> years? Can I weight my points further (I see there are wood shaft point
      >> weights on the market)?
      >>
      >> Thank you for the assistance,
      >> -Cate.
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > --
      > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Bill Tait
      Actually, I d like to touch on the active release here: Snip ... This isn t quite right, but it does describe what I see when sca archers are trying to do an
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 5, 2013
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        Actually, I'd like to touch on the active release here:

        Snip

         The final thing many beginning and experienced archers do is have the draw hand fly away from the face upon release. If your draw hand moves at all it should continue moving backwards so that it finishes by touching your rear shoulder. It is much like drawing through your anchor point, release just as you touch your anchor point. 


        This isn't quite right, but it does describe what I see when sca archers are trying to do an active release.

        What should happen is that you come into your anchor, and the string actually does stop. This is where your final aiming step takes place. What does not stop is the movement of the string side shoulder blade. Continue to pull the shoulder blade back, transferring the load rearward and downward. At this point we move into "expansion", often accompanied by a slow release of breath. The arrow gets drawn another 1-2 mm, and is released. The expansion phase is used by olympic archers to draw the arrow through the clicker.

        Your description of the release is a good one. Don't "let go", but rather "stop holding". By loading into the lower / mid trapezius, the resultant movement of the string hand will be rearward. If it comes away from the face _aterally_, it is indicative of drawing using arm muscles, and upper traps / deltoids (one of the hardest habits I'm trying to break). The string hand does not have to come to rest at any specific location, describing such will have people actively trying to hit a spot with their string hand, employing more muscles to make that happen, rather than simply letting the shot "open you up". My hand often comes to rest at the back of my head. :)

        A fantastic example of a release is Natalia Valeeva: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aln-GSMmRaU

        Watch any of the youtube footage of the archery world cups, or world championships for examples of active release. 

        William Arwemakere


      • The Greys
        William, Good points. My comments about pulling through the anchor point was the Pappa Bear method of draw release. Wherein he came to aim point in a half
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 5, 2013
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          William,
          Good points. My comments about pulling through the anchor point was the Pappa Bear method of draw release. Wherein he came to aim point in a half draw, where he would hesitate, then continued on backwards until his draw hand middle finger touched his upper canine tooth, at which point he released while continuing his draw hand/arm movement backward through the anchor point. It has the appearance to me of a snap shot. I've tried this technique but personally do much better with the static or dead release.

          On a different subject, I believe you are the William oft seen lurking about Gulf Wars :-). Will we have that pleasure once again next week?

          kog

          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:
          >
          > Actually, I'd like to touch on the active release here:
          >
          > Snip
          >
          > > The final thing many beginning and experienced archers do is have the
          > > draw hand fly away from the face upon release. If your draw hand moves at
          > > all it should continue moving backwards so that it finishes by touching
          > > your rear shoulder. It is much like drawing through your anchor point,
          > > release just as you touch your anchor point.
          > >
          >
          > This isn't quite right, but it does describe what I see when sca archers
          > are trying to do an active release.
          >
          > What should happen is that you come into your anchor, and the string
          > actually does stop. This is where your final aiming step takes place. What
          > does not stop is the movement of the string side shoulder blade. Continue
          > to pull the shoulder blade back, transferring the load rearward and
          > downward. At this point we move into "expansion", often accompanied by a
          > slow release of breath. The arrow gets drawn another 1-2 mm, and is
          > released. The expansion phase is used by olympic archers to draw the arrow
          > through the clicker.
          >
          > Your description of the release is a good one. Don't "let go", but rather
          > "stop holding". By loading into the lower / mid trapezius, the resultant
          > movement of the string hand will be rearward. If it comes away from the
          > face _aterally_, it is indicative of drawing using arm muscles, and upper
          > traps / deltoids (one of the hardest habits I'm trying to break). The
          > string hand does not have to come to rest at any specific location,
          > describing such will have people actively trying to hit a spot with their
          > string hand, employing more muscles to make that happen, rather than simply
          > letting the shot "open you up". My hand often comes to rest at the back of
          > my head. :)
          >
          > A fantastic example of a release is Natalia Valeeva:
          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aln-GSMmRaU
          >
          > Watch any of the youtube footage of the archery world cups, or world
          > championships for examples of active release.
          >
          > William Arwemakere
          >
        • Bill Tait
          Yes, that s me, and sadly no, I can t afford the trip again this year. I m aiming for Gator Cup in Florida in May (no pun intended). Aiming at half draw, then
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 5, 2013
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            Yes, that's me, and sadly no, I can't afford the trip again this year. I'm aiming for Gator Cup in Florida in May (no pun intended).

            Aiming at half draw, then trusting that you're still on target through more draw will work reasonably well for the shorter distances we generally shoot in the SCA. I'm trying to hit a 12.2 cm 10ring at 90 meters, For me to be in the gold @ 90, I'm within .055" of center on release (assuming, of course, I don't botch the release)

            William

            On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 1:50 PM, The Greys <cogworks@...> wrote:
             

            William,
            Good points. My comments about pulling through the anchor point was the Pappa Bear method of draw release. Wherein he came to aim point in a half draw, where he would hesitate, then continued on backwards until his draw hand middle finger touched his upper canine tooth, at which point he released while continuing his draw hand/arm movement backward through the anchor point. It has the appearance to me of a snap shot. I've tried this technique but personally do much better with the static or dead release.

            On a different subject, I believe you are the William oft seen lurking about Gulf Wars :-). Will we have that pleasure once again next week?

            kog



            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Bill Tait wrote:
            >
            > Actually, I'd like to touch on the active release here:
            >
            > Snip
            >
            > > The final thing many beginning and experienced archers do is have the
            > > draw hand fly away from the face upon release. If your draw hand moves at
            > > all it should continue moving backwards so that it finishes by touching
            > > your rear shoulder. It is much like drawing through your anchor point,
            > > release just as you touch your anchor point.
            > >
            >
            > This isn't quite right, but it does describe what I see when sca archers
            > are trying to do an active release.
            >
            > What should happen is that you come into your anchor, and the string
            > actually does stop. This is where your final aiming step takes place. What
            > does not stop is the movement of the string side shoulder blade. Continue
            > to pull the shoulder blade back, transferring the load rearward and
            > downward. At this point we move into "expansion", often accompanied by a
            > slow release of breath. The arrow gets drawn another 1-2 mm, and is
            > released. The expansion phase is used by olympic archers to draw the arrow
            > through the clicker.
            >
            > Your description of the release is a good one. Don't "let go", but rather
            > "stop holding". By loading into the lower / mid trapezius, the resultant
            > movement of the string hand will be rearward. If it comes away from the
            > face _aterally_, it is indicative of drawing using arm muscles, and upper
            > traps / deltoids (one of the hardest habits I'm trying to break). The
            > string hand does not have to come to rest at any specific location,
            > describing such will have people actively trying to hit a spot with their
            > string hand, employing more muscles to make that happen, rather than simply
            > letting the shot "open you up". My hand often comes to rest at the back of
            > my head. :)
            >
            > A fantastic example of a release is Natalia Valeeva:
            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aln-GSMmRaU
            >
            > Watch any of the youtube footage of the archery world cups, or world
            > championships for examples of active release.
            >
            > William Arwemakere
            >


          • lynn.palmieri
            Hello, I ve also had issues with having to aim far to the right (right handed in my case). I fell into the bad habit of gripping the bow too hard and also
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 5, 2013
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              Hello,

              I’ve also had issues with having to aim far to the right (right handed in my case).  I fell into the bad habit of gripping the bow too hard and also lifting my left shoulder.  Shifting back to the pinch grip (holding bow between thumb and first finger for support, one finger curled around to hold bow in place at release only), and consciously making sure my shoulders are dropped brought my targeting back into alignment.  If you have a master or advanced bowman in your vicinity, get them to watch your stance and give you their feedback.  Our group is more than willing to help each other with form when we find we have consistent issues with our shooting.

              Hope you find your answer.

              Elynor.

               

              From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Catherine Townson
              Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 10:51 AM
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [SCA-Archery] What to do when you are always overspined?

               

               

              Hello all,

               

              I tried looking through the history, but didn't see an answer to my question.

               

              From everything I've read, one should be able to aim the tip of the arrow at the centre of the target, adjusting vertically for range.  In order to hit the target, I have to aim far to the left.  At 20 yards maybe 2-3 feet to the left of the target.  Googling my problem, it appears my arrows are very overspined.  I shoot left handed.

               

              I shoot a 25# recurve bow.  My draw length is 26".  At approximately 2# loss per inch, it means my draw weight is effectively 21#.  I use an approximately 28" shaft length.  I have been unable to find wood shafts lower than a 30-35# spine, mine are currently 35-40# (this was the lowest available at the time) but I have some 30-35# shafts on the way.  I'm using a fast flight string (which I believe adds 5 lbs to the suggested spine weight).  I am currently using 70 gr. points, which is what I was told to use, but I have 100 and 125 gr points on hand.  

               

              I'd like to get a better idea of what to do before making my new arrows.   I can't be the only one with this problem.  Do I just consistently aim at a point to the left and hope to upgrade to a heavier bow in a couple of years?  Can I weight my points further (I see there are wood shaft point weights on the market)?

               

              Thank you for the assistance,

              -Cate.

               

               

            • William Davis
              I too had a problem with arrow spine when I first started shooting.  I had 35 lb bow, so figured I should be using 35 lb arrows.  I actually bought 40-45 and
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 6, 2013
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                I too had a problem with arrow spine when I first started shooting.  I had 35 lb bow, so figured I should be using 35 lb arrows.  I actually bought 40-45 and they worked okay, but I too had to aim at the outside edge of the black ring, to achieve a center hit.  My next set of arrows, turned out to be poorly spined, ranging from 33 lb up to 50 lb, so they were all over the target.  I decided to change arrow suppliers and in doing so, discovered the following chart, which shows that I should be using arrows spined at around 50 lbs, so I ordered 50-55s.  My aim point is now dead center.  

                http://www.allwoodarrows.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1831

                If the link does not work, just go to Allwoodarrows.com, and click the spine chart link at bottom of the header banner.

                Gwilym of Fflint


              • talonoak
                I have been shooting for a number of years, but I have never been a consistent archer (my arrows are always all over the place). I was always under the
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 6, 2013
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                  I have been shooting for a number of years, but I have never been a consistent archer (my arrows are always all over the place). I was always under the impression that the spine of your arrow should be within 2 to 3 pounds of you bow weight. I looked at the chart, but I need someone who knows how to read it to explain to me how to determine what spine weight arrow I should be using.

                  Eoin


                  From: "William Davis" <willied0296@...>
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 6:46:01 AM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] What to do when you are always overspined?

                   

                  I too had a problem with arrow spine when I first started shooting.  I had 35 lb bow, so figured I should be using 35 lb arrows.  I actually bought 40-45 and they worked okay, but I too had to aim at the outside edge of the black ring, to achieve a center hit.  My next set of arrows, turned out to be poorly spined, ranging from 33 lb up to 50 lb, so they were all over the target.  I decided to change arrow suppliers and in doing so, discovered the following chart, which shows that I should be using arrows spined at around 50 lbs, so I ordered 50-55s.  My aim point is now dead center.  

                  http://www.allwoodarrows.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1831

                  If the link does not work, just go to Allwoodarrows.com, and click the spine chart link at bottom of the header banner.

                  Gwilym of Fflint


                • William Davis
                  Simple enough. Step 1)  Which kind of bow are you using?  Shelved Recurve or Shelved Longbow, that are center shot, ie the string lines up with the inner
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 6, 2013
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                    Simple enough.

                    Step 1)  Which kind of bow are you using?  Shelved Recurve or Shelved Longbow, that are center shot, ie the string lines up with the inner edge of the shelf (more or less), you use the columns on the left of the table.  If you are using an unshelved longbow, or other bow where the edge of the bow and the bowstring do NOT align, then you use the columns on the right side of the table.

                    Step 2)  What is your point weight?  Most people use either the 100 or 125 grain points, some may have lighter, in which case you will have to extrapolate from this chart, and some use heavier.  Go down under the Point Grain Weight column until you come to the box with the draw weight of your bow.

                    Step 3)  Now move to the right (or left, as the case may be) until you reach a box under your arrow length.  That box will tell you the spine weight you want for your arrows.

                    Step 4)  Buy arrows.

                    Step 5)  Practice, practice, practice, and practice some more.  If you are a beginner, or novice, you may want to even consider lessons.

                    One thing I have done, which I find helps.  I made a simple chart with bunch of roundel targets on it (I got 20 on a standard 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper).  I numbered the boxes 1 - 20. I then took a sharpie and numbered my arrows, 1 - 18 (1 don't have 20 of the same).  I then went to the range, and using the same group of 6 arrows, I shot an end. Using the box number that corresponds to the arrow I shot, I mark where each arrow hit.  I did that 12 or 15 ends, with the same arrows.  When finished I have a record of where each arrow went.  I can now see a number of things.  Which arrows fly truest.  It shows grouping.  Some may fly a bit left, or right, or up, or down.  Do the same thing with all your arrows.  You can now sort by how they fly.  If you have several that go a little left, put them together, and use them together, that way you know, more or less, where they are going to go, and you can compensate with your aim point.  Likewise with any other direction.  
                    If however, all the arrows are scattered all over the target, then you are probably doing something wrong with your mechanics, and should seek assistance identifying the problem.  Then revert to step 5 above.

                    Hope that helps

                    Gwilym


                    --- On Wed, 3/6/13, stalek@... <stalek@...> wrote:

                    From: stalek@... <stalek@...>
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] What to do when you are always overspined?
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2013, 1:26 PM

                     

                    I have been shooting for a number of years, but I have never been a consistent archer (my arrows are always all over the place). I was always under the impression that the spine of your arrow should be within 2 to 3 pounds of you bow weight. I looked at the chart, but I need someone who knows how to read it to explain to me how to determine what spine weight arrow I should be using.

                    Eoin


                    From: "William Davis" <willied0296@...>
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 6:46:01 AM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] What to do when you are always overspined?

                     

                    I too had a problem with arrow spine when I first started shooting.  I had 35 lb bow, so figured I should be using 35 lb arrows.  I actually bought 40-45 and they worked okay, but I too had to aim at the outside edge of the black ring, to achieve a center hit.  My next set of arrows, turned out to be poorly spined, ranging from 33 lb up to 50 lb, so they were all over the target.  I decided to change arrow suppliers and in doing so, discovered the following chart, which shows that I should be using arrows spined at around 50 lbs, so I ordered 50-55s.  My aim point is now dead center.  

                    http://www.allwoodarrows.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1831

                    If the link does not work, just go to Allwoodarrows.com, and click the spine chart link at bottom of the header banner.

                    Gwilym of Fflint


                  • The Greys
                    As long as we are discussing spine let me share what I have learned about the subject and arrow making. First the basic rule is for longbow match spine to
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 7, 2013
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                      As long as we are discussing spine let me share what I have learned about the subject and arrow making. First the basic rule is for longbow match spine to draw weight of bow. For recurve add 10 pounds to the spine. Thus 45 pound longbow, spine 45 - 50. 45 pound recurve, 55 - 60 spine. However, this is only a starting position as technique may cause need for more or less spine.

                      Next is the issue of how spine is measured. It is measured on 28 inch centers. Thus a 40 - 45 spine shaft is such only if 28 inches long. Every inch added reduces spine by 5 pounds. Every inch less than 28 increases spine by 5 pounds. Every coat of finish added to the shaft adds back 5 pounds of spine. Thus cutting a 45 - 50 spined shaft to 30 inches reduces it's spine to 35 - 40. Add two coats of finish and you are back to 45 - 50.

                      Next is how you orient the nock to the grain of the shaft. Basically the string/nock should be perpendicular to the grain of the shaft. This way you get maximum stiffness out of the shaft - read here, more accurate spine - and consistent flex between shafts/arrows.

                      Point weight is the next factor. The basic rule here is 10 % FOC (Forward Of Center) for completed arrows. However, a heavier point tends to cause the shaft to hit harder (more mass) but drop faster. A lighter point, tends towards less impact (less mass) and floats a bit more - longer distance.

                      And lastly fletching. Straight fletching = less drag. Helicoil fletching = most drag. Diagonal fletching = between straight and helicoil. All shafts spin in flight. How much spin you get is determined by how the fletches are oriented on the shaft, helicoil most, straight least. However, the jury is not in on spin increasing accuracy of the shot. However, air drag on fletching is seldom an issue in the SCA due to the shorter distances we shot. If you are going for flight arrows then straight fletching with very small, i.e. height from shaft, fletches.

                      And we haven't even gotten into how well bow and arrow are set up, i.e. shafts "swimming" sideways or waggling up and down during flight. All issues that could cause the need to aim way off center of what you are trying to hit.

                      And who would have thought a string on a bent stick flinging another stick would be so complex?!?

                      Kog

                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, William Davis <willied0296@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I too had a problem with arrow spine when I first started shooting.  I had 35 lb bow, so figured I should be using 35 lb arrows.  I actually bought 40-45 and they worked okay, but I too had to aim at the outside edge of the black ring, to achieve a center hit.  My next set of arrows, turned out to be poorly spined, ranging from 33 lb up to 50 lb, so they were all over the target.  I decided to change arrow suppliers and in doing so, discovered the following chart, which shows that I should be using arrows spined at around 50 lbs, so I ordered 50-55s.  My aim point is now dead center.  
                      > http://www.allwoodarrows.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1831
                      > If the link does not work, just go to Allwoodarrows.com, and click the spine chart link at bottom of the header banner.
                      > Gwilym of Fflint
                      >
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