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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Proposed Rules For New Grand Archery Shoot "Schutzenfest"

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  • Bernal Schooley
    Gladius, I m not sure if Edmund was asking about shooting multiple times in a multi-event shoot designed to get 20+ participants or if he was just talking
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
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      Gladius, 

      I'm not sure if Edmund was asking about shooting multiple times in a multi-event shoot designed to get 20+ participants or if he was just talking about shooting at multiple GAT events. In your examples you suggested that if an archer has multiple submitted scores they add together as the "sum of all standings" and the number of events would be noted as well. What I'm curious about is how scores are compared between individuals that participate in one, four and ten events. Do you have a system where the top four scores within the last year are summed for an official ranking or at least something similar?

      --Richard de Scolay
      Ayreton


      On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 8:44 PM, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
       

      Edmund,
      >
      This is something we considered, but didn't address since we figured it is unlikely to happen in most cases.  My personal take is, how such a situation would be handled ought to be entirely up to the people who designed the shoot.  You could allow the person to shoot the tournament again, but submit only the original score.  You could submit the average, you could submit the highest score.  It is really up to the individuals designing the actual shoot to come up with rules which are both fair and allow for the greatest possible number of people to compete. 

      >
      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
      >
      >
      >. At 09:41 AM 1/6/2013, you wrote:
       

      I love this idea, but I did have a question about the "multiple events" rule. My corner of Gleann Abhann is one such area where this rule would allow us to participate where otherwise we could not, but what happens if/when a shooter attends the second event with the GAT qualifying shoots?

      Do the shooter's first score(s) stand, or their best score(s)? Can they mix and match scores from the two events to form a "composite" of sorts?

      I'm not advocating one way or another, I simply know that this is a question that will eventually come up, and we as marshals need to know.

      -Edmund of Penyngton
      Live Weapons Marshal, Gleann Abhann
      Baronial Yeoman of Small Gray Bear

      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch wrote:
      >
      > Siegfried,
      > >
      > Jonathas is 100% correct. He neglected to add
      > that people would not have to drive 3 hours to
      > shoot the same thing they shot last
      > weekend. Their score would already be on record.
      > >
      > There is something I neglected to mention when I
      > first posted this. What I posted are not just
      > the rules. In addition to the rules are notes as
      > to why each rule is thought to be necessary along
      > with examples of what the rule allows. Once the
      > web site is created, you will see only the actual
      > rules. For notes, explanations, and examples
      > there will be hyperlinks to a FAQ page.
      > >
      > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
      > >
      > >
      > > At 12:31 PM 1/5/2013, you wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >Siegfried,
      > >
      > >That was added so that in locations that do not
      > >draw many archers it would be possible to hold
      > >the same shoot at several events such that the
      > >combined total of archers would be enough. We
      > >are lucky in Atlantia that the vast majority of
      > >our archery events have enough archers to qualify.
      > >
      > >Jonathas
      > >On Jan 5, 2013 9:12 AM, "Siegfried"
      > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >Allow me to clarify - as my words may have been
      > >confusing since this is a "any shoot can qualify" thing.
      > >
      > >Primarily I meant the nature that this is still
      > >standardized in the nature of "create a shoot
      > >that can be run at 2-3 events" - Which
      > >encourages identical shoots at events, vs unique
      > >ones that are encouraged in our area.
      > >
      > >As people are not typically excited to drive
      > >3hrs just to shoot the same thing they did last weekend.
      > >
      > >:-)
      > >
      > >Siegfried
      > >
      > >
      > >On Jan 5, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Siegfried
      > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >>Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot
      > >>get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia)
      > >>that have prided themselves at havin unique
      > >>interesting shoots at events. And keeping
      > >>"stock" shoots (RR, IKAC, Winter) primarily at practices.
      > >>
      > >>Siegfried
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Bill Tait
      > >>< arwemakere@...> wrote:
      > >>
      > >>>One question:
      > >>>
      > >>>"To be official, the competition must be shot
      > >>>at an event listed on the Calendar of the
      > >>>kingdom in which it will be held. Unlike
      > >>>Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be
      > >>>shot at practices or unofficial gatherings
      > >>>even if enough participants are present. This
      > >>>rule has been added to assure the maximum
      > >>>number of participants the opportunity to compete."
      > >>>
      > >>>Huh? This would actually reduce the number of
      > >>>possible competitors. We have a number of
      > >>>archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per
      > >>>year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't
      > >>>get me wrong, I support having "At events
      > >>>only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.
      > >>>
      > >>>William Arwemakere
      > >>>
      > >>>On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette
      > >>>< pickette@...> wrote:
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>Dear Gladius -
      > >>>This is a great help to those who wish GOA and
      > >>>related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?
      > >>>
      > >>>JoO
      > >>>Calontir
      > >>>
      > >>>


    • James Koch
      Richard, ... We went back and forth on this one. At this time we plan to list each relevant score shot. Basically anyone who finishes in the top half of a
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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        Richard,
        >
        We went back and forth on this one.  At this time we plan to list each relevant score shot.  Basically anyone who finishes in the top half of a GAT will have that score posted.  Initially people will have only one score posted, since this is so new.  Eventually, once people have shot in multiple GATs, they will have several scores behind their name.  There are a myriad number of "batting" averages we can come up with.  People can calculate those on their own.  If people start frequently using an average or a total, we can include it on the scores page.  We want this to be more like a crown tournament though than like a Royal Round.  In a crown tournament all that matters is who came in first, and to a lesser extent second, and how many times have they won. 
        >
        Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        >
        >
        >   At 11:36 PM 1/6/2013, you wrote:
         

        Gladius,

        I'm not sure if Edmund was asking about shooting multiple times in a multi-event shoot designed to get 20+ participants or if he was just talking about shooting at multiple GAT events. In your examples you suggested that if an archer has multiple submitted scores they add together as the "sum of all standings" and the number of events would be noted as well. What I'm curious about is how scores are compared between individuals that participate in one, four and ten events. Do you have a system where the top four scores within the last year are summed for an official ranking or at least something similar?

        --Richard de Scolay
        Ayreton


        On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 8:44 PM, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
         

        Edmund,
        >
        This is something we considered, but didn't address since we figured it is unlikely to happen in most cases.  My personal take is, how such a situation would be handled ought to be entirely up to the people who designed the shoot.  You could allow the person to shoot the tournament again, but submit only the original score.  You could submit the average, you could submit the highest score.  It is really up to the individuals designing the actual shoot to come up with rules which are both fair and allow for the greatest possible number of people to compete. 
        >
        Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        >
        >
        >. At 09:41 AM 1/6/2013, you wrote:
         

        I love this idea, but I did have a question about the "multiple events" rule. My corner of Gleann Abhann is one such area where this rule would allow us to participate where otherwise we could not, but what happens if/when a shooter attends the second event with the GAT qualifying shoots?

        Do the shooter's first score(s) stand, or their best score(s)? Can they mix and match scores from the two events to form a "composite" of sorts?

        I'm not advocating one way or another, I simply know that this is a question that will eventually come up, and we as marshals need to know.

        -Edmund of Penyngton
        Live Weapons Marshal, Gleann Abhann
        Baronial Yeoman of Small Gray Bear

        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch wrote:
        >
        > Siegfried,
        > >
        > Jonathas is 100% correct. He neglected to add
        > that people would not have to drive 3 hours to
        > shoot the same thing they shot last
        > weekend. Their score would already be on record.
        > >
        > There is something I neglected to mention when I
        > first posted this. What I posted are not just
        > the rules. In addition to the rules are notes as
        > to why each rule is thought to be necessary along
        > with examples of what the rule allows. Once the
        > web site is created, you will see only the actual
        > rules. For notes, explanations, and examples
        > there will be hyperlinks to a FAQ page.
        > >
        > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        > >
        > >
        > > At 12:31 PM 1/5/2013, you wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >Siegfried,
        > >
        > >That was added so that in locations that do not
        > >draw many archers it would be possible to hold
        > >the same shoot at several events such that the
        > >combined total of archers would be enough. We
        > >are lucky in Atlantia that the vast majority of
        > >our archery events have enough archers to qualify.
        > >
        > >Jonathas
        > >On Jan 5, 2013 9:12 AM, "Siegfried"
        > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >Allow me to clarify - as my words may have been
        > >confusing since this is a "any shoot can qualify" thing.
        > >
        > >Primarily I meant the nature that this is still
        > >standardized in the nature of "create a shoot
        > >that can be run at 2-3 events" - Which
        > >encourages identical shoots at events, vs unique
        > >ones that are encouraged in our area.
        > >
        > >As people are not typically excited to drive
        > >3hrs just to shoot the same thing they did last weekend.
        > >
        > >:-)
        > >
        > >Siegfried
        > >
        > >
        > >On Jan 5, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Siegfried
        > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >>Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot
        > >>get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia)
        > >>that have prided themselves at havin unique
        > >>interesting shoots at events. And keeping
        > >>"stock" shoots (RR, IKAC, Winter) primarily at practices.
        > >>
        > >>Siegfried
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Bill Tait
        > >>< arwemakere@...> wrote:
        > >>
        > >>>One question:
        > >>>
        > >>>"To be official, the competition must be shot
        > >>>at an event listed on the Calendar of the
        > >>>kingdom in which it will be held. Unlike
        > >>>Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be
        > >>>shot at practices or unofficial gatherings
        > >>>even if enough participants are present. This
        > >>>rule has been added to assure the maximum
        > >>>number of participants the opportunity to compete."
        > >>>
        > >>>Huh? This would actually reduce the number of
        > >>>possible competitors. We have a number of
        > >>>archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per
        > >>>year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't
        > >>>get me wrong, I support having "At events
        > >>>only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.
        > >>>
        > >>>William Arwemakere
        > >>>
        > >>>On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette
        > >>>< pickette@...> wrote:
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>>Dear Gladius -
        > >>>This is a great help to those who wish GOA and
        > >>>related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?
        > >>>
        > >>>JoO
        > >>>Calontir
        > >>>
        > >>>

      • James Koch
        Gentlemen & Ladies, ... Sir Jon requested that I post the revised version of the proposed rules for the new Grand Archery Tournament. We have made a number of
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 15, 2013
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          Gentlemen & Ladies,
          >
          Sir Jon requested that I post the revised version of the proposed rules for the new Grand Archery Tournament.  We have made a number of changes to address concerns expressed and for the sake of clarity.  Again, I am sorry for the layout.  Once these rules have been finalized and displayed on a web site, much of the information can be placed on hyperlinks for the sake of simplicity and brevity.  We look forward to your suggestions, and comments.
          >
          >
          >
                                 Welcome to the Grand Archery Tournament Official page!
                                           PART ONE, BACKGROUND
          The Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for short, is a system that allows all the archers in the Knowne World to compete in local tournaments and compare their performance to archers elsewhere in the SCA.  Many archers shoot Royal Rounds, IKACs, and similar standardized competitions where the target type, ranges, and number of ends are the same whenever shot.  A means needed to be devised to record scores and compare archer’s resulting standings in non-standardized tournaments as shot at most large events where archery is included.  The GAT is an attempt to address this need. 
           
          INTENT.  The intent of the GAT is therefore to allow scores obtained during non-standardized shoots to be recorded, and competitor’s final standings to be calculated based on their performance relative to the other shooters, and displayed for comparison. 
           
          ORGANIZATION.  For the sake of simplicity and fairness, at this time the GAT is divided into only two divisions, one for hand bows, and one for crossbows.  A Grand Archery Tournament consists of one or many shoots, each with a numeric score.  The GAT is meant to be an advanced tournament, but, all archers are welcome to compete regardless of age and ability.     
           
          SUBMISSIONS.  Once the shoots have been completed, all of the participant’s scores and other necessary information may be submitted by the responsible marshal to the Keeper Of The GAT who will calculate the resulting standing of each shooter relative to the other competitors.  The winner of the tournament will be assigned a standing of 100, while the others will have standings calculated as a percentage of the winner’s score.
           
          CALCULATION.  The formula the Keeper Of The GAT uses for calculating standings is as follows. 
          Standing = ((Score – Lowest-score) / (Highest-score – Lowest-score)) * 100
          In a GAT where eight crossbow shooters turned in numeric scores of 33, 29, 20, 20, 19, 13, 12, and 8, the resulting standings would be 100, 84, 48, 48, 44, 20, 16, and 0. 
           
          RESULTS.  The participant’s “name”, “kingdom”, “division” (bow type), “total GATs entered”, “tournament place and date, and standing” are then recorded.  A record is posted to the GAT standings web page.  Only participants who have shot at least one tournament with a standing of 50 or higher will have their record automatically posted to the scores page.  This cut off is necessary due to space and other limitations too numerous to list here.  If you have shot one or more GATS and none of your standings have reached the 50% or above threshold, you may contact the Keeper Of The GAT and request that a record be displayed showing your standings down to whatever limit you deem necessary, and your record will be added to the GAT standings page.  As scores accumulate, various other statistics may be added to the standings page.   
          In the earlier example where eight crossbow shooters participated, only the individuals who earned standings of 100 and 84 would have records automatically added to the scores page, if they did not already have a previous record posted.  If one of the shooters with a score of 48 already had one earlier GAT tournament posted, with a standing of 60, his “total GATs entered” would be increased to 2.           
              
          QUESTIONS.  If you have any questions, comments, or criticisms, do not hesitate to write to me Joe The Scorekeeper.
           
          MARSHAL ACCOUNTS.  If you are a marshal, have not already gotten an account, and would be willing to submit your scores via the site, please send me an email with "Account Request" as the subject. The email must include your Mundane name, Scadian Name, Home Kingdom/Group, and Email address. Scores which are submitted via the site will be given priority for getting approved and included in the official standings.
           
                             PART TWO FORMAT AND REQUIREMENTS
          Any archery competition can be designated a GAT.  However, if the resulting standings are to be calculated and posted to the official GAT scores page, the following criteria must be met.
           
          RULE 1.  In order for the keeper of the scores to be able to calculate valid standings, a minimum of 20 hand bow or 6 crossbow competitors must enter the tournament.  END OF RULE 1. 
          REASON FOR RULE 1.  If too few competitors enter either division, the scores for that division will not be statistically valid and will not be calculated and posted to the official GAT scores page.  END OF REASON FOR RULE 1.
          RULE 1 CONSIDERATIONS.  What if you don’t have enough people to hold a GAT in your area?  1) Train more archers.  2) Invite skilled competitors from surrounding kingdoms.  3) Design a competition made up of shoots that can be reproduced and shot at several events in several locations.  So long as the locations provide similar conditions, the standings can be accurately calculated.  As an example, if there are only 6 crossbow shooters in your entire kingdom, devise a tournament that can be set up at two or three events that all six crossbow shooters can attend.  Announce on your kingdom calendar that a GAT will be shot at the X, Y, and Z events.  Once the shoots are complete, submit the accumulated information to the Keeper Of The GAT.  END OF RULE 1 CONSIDERATIONS.    
           

          RULE 2.  To be official, the GAT must be shot at an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it will be held.  Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at unofficial gatherings even if enough participants are present.  END OF RULE 2.

          REASON FOR RULE 2.  This rule has been added to assure the maximum number of participants the opportunity to compete.  END OF REASON FOR RULE 2. 

          RULE 2 CONSIDERATIONS.  A kingdom can host many GATs per year.  Ideally a large kingdom ought to host multiple GATs far enough apart to allow everyone a chance to submit a score.  If your local weekly practice attracts the required number of participants to qualify as a GAT, simply announce it as such on your kingdom’s calendar. END OF RULE 2 CONSIDERATIONS.

          RULE 3.  Equipment that is allowed in your kingdom according to your archery rules may be used to shoot a GAT.  Equipment that is not allowed in your kingdom according to your archery rules may not be used to shoot a GAT.  END OF RULE 3.
           
          RULE 4.  Certain basic information must be recorded and provided to the Keeper Of The GAT by the responsible marshal.  This is to include The date or dates of the shoot, the place or places where the shoot was held, consisting of kingdom and group, the names of the participants, their home groups, their home kingdoms, their division (bow type), and their numeric score.  END OF RULE 4.
          RULE 4 CONSIDERATIONS.  Ties do not present a problem.  If a participant was unable to complete the shoot for some reason, the partial score will be provided.  If no partial score is provided, a score of zero will be assigned.  Only the top 50% of submitted scores will be calculated and posted to the GAT standings page.  So non-completion of a GAT due to illness or an equipment failure will not adversely affect an individuals posted standing.  END OF RULE 4 CONSIDERATIONS.
          >
          >
          >
          Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
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