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Iberian archery gear....

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  • John S
    I am trying to find some information on what types of bows the medieval Portuguese were using around the time of the first/second crusades? Was it a more
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 3, 2012
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      I am trying to find some information on what types of bows the medieval Portuguese were using around the time of the first/second crusades? Was it a more middle eastern styled recurve? If anyone has any info to share I would greatly appreciate it---John
    • Jim Pickette
      http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=DC21BFE5681AFE67E52EED1D790DCE248D7CEA99&first=1
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 3, 2012
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        http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=DC21BFE5681AFE67E52EED1D790DCE248D7CEA99&first=1

        http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=7E5A7872A60AD7235EEB17E7C67B262F280EC12C&first=196

        Both links contain period bows used by the Moors in Iberia in approximately the right period. Haven’t seen pictures of Christian bows yet. Still looking.

        James of Odo, Fidelibus
        AMIT, Calontir
        ---- John S <jkonkapot@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am trying to find some information on what types of bows the medieval Portuguese were using around the time of the first/second crusades? Was it a more middle eastern styled recurve? If anyone has any info to share I would greatly appreciate it---John
        >
      • John Edgerton
        I would go with the idea of composite recurves because of the Moorish influence in that area. However, either short or long self bows are also likely due to
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 3, 2012
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          I would go with the idea of composite recurves because of the Moorish influence in that area.  However, either short or long self bows are also likely due to the supply of yew in Spain for those with more limited budgets.  You should also consider the use of crossbows with self wood or composite prods, which were very common in Spain during that period. 

          When you find illustrations, you should give more value to those that were done in that period and not later, particularly Victorian illustrations.  Look for books on the Reconquest, the story of Roland, Osprey books on that period, etc. 

          I hope this is some help. 

          Jon



          From: Jim Pickette <pickette@...>
          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: John S <jkonkapot@...>
          Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 8:55:13 AM
          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Iberian archery gear....

           

          http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=DC21BFE5681AFE67E52EED1D790DCE248D7CEA99&first=1

          http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=7E5A7872A60AD7235EEB17E7C67B262F280EC12C&first=196

          Both links contain period bows used by the Moors in Iberia in approximately the right period. Haven’t seen pictures of Christian bows yet. Still looking.

          James of Odo, Fidelibus
          AMIT, Calontir
          ---- John S <jkonkapot@...> wrote:

          >
          > I am trying to find some information on what types of bows the medieval Portuguese were using around the time of the first/second crusades? Was it a more middle eastern styled recurve? If anyone has any info to share I would greatly appreciate it---John
          >

        • John S
          I found this site....which may give some clues....---John http://www.atarn.org/islamic/islamic.htm
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 4, 2012
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            I found this site....which may give some clues....---John


            http://www.atarn.org/islamic/islamic.htm




            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
            >
            > I would go with the idea of composite recurves because of the Moorish influence
            > in that area. However, either short or long self bows are also likely due to
            > the supply of yew in Spain for those with more limited budgets. You should also
            > consider the use of crossbows with self wood or composite prods, which were very
            > common in Spain during that period.
            >
            > When you find illustrations, you should give more value to those that were done
            > in that period and not later, particularly Victorian illustrations. Look for
            > books on the Reconquest, the story of Roland, Osprey books on that period, etc.
            >
            > I hope this is some help.
            >
            > Jon
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Jim Pickette <pickette@...>
            > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            > Cc: John S <jkonkapot@...>
            > Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 8:55:13 AM
            > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Iberian archery gear....
            >
            >
            > http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=DC21BFE5681AFE67E52EED1D790DCE248D7CEA99&first=1
            >
            >
            > http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=7E5A7872A60AD7235EEB17E7C67B262F280EC12C&first=196
            >
            >
            > Both links contain period bows used by the Moors in Iberia in approximately the
            > right period. Haven’t seen pictures of Christian bows yet. Still looking.
            >
            > James of Odo, Fidelibus
            > AMIT, Calontir
            > ---- John S <jkonkapot@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I am trying to find some information on what types of bows the medieval
            > >Portuguese were using around the time of the first/second crusades? Was it a
            > >more middle eastern styled recurve? If anyone has any info to share I would
            > >greatly appreciate it---John
            > >
            >
          • John S
            oh here s another....--John http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayson/islamicarchery/islamicarchery.shtml
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 4, 2012
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              oh here's another....--John

              http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayson/islamicarchery/islamicarchery.shtml
              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "John S" <jkonkapot@...> wrote:
              >
              > I found this site....which may give some clues....---John
              >
              >
              > http://www.atarn.org/islamic/islamic.htm
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John Edgerton <sirjon1@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I would go with the idea of composite recurves because of the Moorish influence
              > > in that area. However, either short or long self bows are also likely due to
              > > the supply of yew in Spain for those with more limited budgets. You should also
              > > consider the use of crossbows with self wood or composite prods, which were very
              > > common in Spain during that period.
              > >
              > > When you find illustrations, you should give more value to those that were done
              > > in that period and not later, particularly Victorian illustrations. Look for
              > > books on the Reconquest, the story of Roland, Osprey books on that period, etc.
              > >
              > > I hope this is some help.
              > >
              > > Jon
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > > From: Jim Pickette <pickette@>
              > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              > > Cc: John S <jkonkapot@>
              > > Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 8:55:13 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Iberian archery gear....
              > >
              > >
              > > http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=DC21BFE5681AFE67E52EED1D790DCE248D7CEA99&first=1
              > >
              > >
              > > http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=7E5A7872A60AD7235EEB17E7C67B262F280EC12C&first=196
              > >
              > >
              > > Both links contain period bows used by the Moors in Iberia in approximately the
              > > right period. Haven’t seen pictures of Christian bows yet. Still looking.
              > >
              > > James of Odo, Fidelibus
              > > AMIT, Calontir
              > > ---- John S <jkonkapot@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I am trying to find some information on what types of bows the medieval
              > > >Portuguese were using around the time of the first/second crusades? Was it a
              > > >more middle eastern styled recurve? If anyone has any info to share I would
              > > >greatly appreciate it---John
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • J. Hughes
              Throughout Portugeuse history in period I would suspect they shared with the rest of the Iberian pensulia the use of the crossbow. That included both the
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 4, 2012
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                Throughout Portugeuse history in period I would suspect they shared with the rest of the Iberian pensulia the use of the crossbow. That included both the Christian kingdoms and Islamic Emirates. I will post to the files a picture of an Portuguese crossbow used by a 16th king of Portugal.
                 
                Charles O'Connor.

                From: John S <jkonkapot@...>
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 7:25 AM
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Iberian archery gear....
                 

                I am trying to find some information on what types of bows the medieval Portuguese were using around the time of the first/second crusades? Was it a more middle eastern styled recurve? If anyone has any info to share I would greatly appreciate it---John

              • Taslen
                Ironically I live just outside of a small town called Iberia which is right down the road from Caledonia . Ah life in rural Ohio. Gaelen O Gradaigh
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 4, 2012
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                  Ironically I live just outside of a small town called "Iberia" which is right down the road from "Caledonia". Ah life in rural Ohio.

                  Gaelen O'Gradaigh


                  From: John S <jkonkapot@...>
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 12:37 PM
                  Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Iberian archery gear....

                   
                  I found this site....which may give some clues....---John

                  http://www.atarn.org/islamic/islamic.htm

                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I would go with the idea of composite recurves because of the Moorish influence
                  > in that area. However, either short or long self bows are also likely due to
                  > the supply of yew in Spain for those with more limited budgets. You should also
                  > consider the use of crossbows with self wood or composite prods, which were very
                  > common in Spain during that period.
                  >
                  > When you find illustrations, you should give more value to those that were done
                  > in that period and not later, particularly Victorian illustrations. Look for
                  > books on the Reconquest, the story of Roland, Osprey books on that period, etc.
                  >
                  > I hope this is some help.
                  >
                  > Jon
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Jim Pickette <pickette@...>
                  > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  > Cc: John S <jkonkapot@...>
                  > Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 8:55:13 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Iberian archery gear....
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=DC21BFE5681AFE67E52EED1D790DCE248D7CEA99&first=1
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=7E5A7872A60AD7235EEB17E7C67B262F280EC12C&first=196
                  >
                  >
                  > Both links contain period bows used by the Moors in Iberia in approximately the
                  > right period. Haven’t seen pictures of Christian bows yet. Still looking.
                  >
                  > James of Odo, Fidelibus
                  > AMIT, Calontir
                  > ---- John S <jkonkapot@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I am trying to find some information on what types of bows the medieval
                  > >Portuguese were using around the time of the first/second crusades? Was it a
                  > >more middle eastern styled recurve? If anyone has any info to share I would
                  > >greatly appreciate it---John
                  > >
                  >



                • Jim Pickette
                  By late in our period crossbows were honored and Masters of Crossbowmen were very honored. In the eleventh and twelvth centuries they wer not honored, just
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 4, 2012
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                    By late in 'our' period crossbows were honored and Masters of Crossbowmen were very honored.
                    In the eleventh and twelvth centuries they wer not honored, just peasants, and not much mentioned in histories.

                    JoO

                    ---- "J. Hughes" <jphughessr@...> wrote:
                    > Throughout Portugeuse history in period I would suspect they shared with the rest of the Iberian pensulia the use of the crossbow. That included both the Christian kingdoms and Islamic Emirates. I will post to the files a picture of an Portuguese crossbow used by a 16th king of Portugal.
                    >  
                    > Charles O'Connor.
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: John S <jkonkapot@...>
                    > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 7:25 AM
                    > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Iberian archery gear....
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    > I am trying to find some information on what types of bows the medieval Portuguese were using around the time of the first/second crusades? Was it a more middle eastern styled recurve? If anyone has any info to share I would greatly appreciate it---John
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Jim Pickette
                    between 5400-5200 BC, A yew bow in Spain. http://www.sci-news.com/archaeology/article00433.html JoO
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 4, 2012
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                      between 5400-5200 BC, A yew bow in Spain.

                      http://www.sci-news.com/archaeology/article00433.html

                      JoO

                      ---- John S <jkonkapot@...> wrote:
                      > oh here's another....--John
                      >
                      > http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayson/islamicarchery/islamicarchery.shtml
                      > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "John S" <jkonkapot@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I found this site....which may give some clues....---John
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > http://www.atarn.org/islamic/islamic.htm
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John Edgerton <sirjon1@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I would go with the idea of composite recurves because of the Moorish influence
                      > > > in that area. However, either short or long self bows are also likely due to
                      > > > the supply of yew in Spain for those with more limited budgets. You should also
                      > > > consider the use of crossbows with self wood or composite prods, which were very
                      > > > common in Spain during that period.
                      > > >
                      > > > When you find illustrations, you should give more value to those that were done
                      > > > in that period and not later, particularly Victorian illustrations. Look for
                      > > > books on the Reconquest, the story of Roland, Osprey books on that period, etc.
                      > > >
                      > > > I hope this is some help.
                      > > >
                      > > > Jon
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ________________________________
                      > > > From: Jim Pickette <pickette@>
                      > > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Cc: John S <jkonkapot@>
                      > > > Sent: Mon, December 3, 2012 8:55:13 AM
                      > > > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Iberian archery gear....
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=DC21BFE5681AFE67E52EED1D790DCE248D7CEA99&first=1
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=reconquista+image&view=detail&id=7E5A7872A60AD7235EEB17E7C67B262F280EC12C&first=196
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Both links contain period bows used by the Moors in Iberia in approximately the
                      > > > right period. Haven’t seen pictures of Christian bows yet. Still looking.
                      > > >
                      > > > James of Odo, Fidelibus
                      > > > AMIT, Calontir
                      > > > ---- John S <jkonkapot@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I am trying to find some information on what types of bows the medieval
                      > > > >Portuguese were using around the time of the first/second crusades? Was it a
                      > > > >more middle eastern styled recurve? If anyone has any info to share I would
                      > > > >greatly appreciate it---John
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • John Edgerton
                      David Nicolle, the author of “El Cid and the Reconquista 1050-1492” Osprey publishing, has some comments on the common use of the crossbow in that period
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 4, 2012
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                        David Nicolle, the author of “El Cid and the Reconquista 1050-1492” Osprey publishing, has some comments on the common use of the crossbow in that period and area. 

                        Jon
                        ****************

                         

                        http://www.amazon.com/Cid-Reconquista-1050-1492-Men-At-Arms-200/dp/0850458404

                         

                        Page 9

                        “Another, perhaps more significant military development was the widespread adoption of crossbows during the 11th century: Spaniards probably led the way but Andalusians were only a few years behind.”

                         

                        Page 12

                        Portugal

                        “Portuguese costume continued to be influenced by Mozarab-Andalusian styles while an ever older tradition may have lain behind a continued use of longbows, though crossbows had also come into fashion. “

                         

                        Page 14

                        “Face-covering mail coifs are mentioned, as are leather lamt shields imported From the Sahara, while crossbows were now the most important infantry weapon. “

                         

                        page 20

                        ..and a greater use of scale armor reflected the threat from crossbows.”

                         

                        Page 21

                        “…XIII century while Catalonia was famous not only for the manufacture of crossbows but also for its crossbowmen.”

                         

                        Page 24

                        “… more significantly, from the special character of Iberian warfare where light cavalry and crossbows used on both foot and horseback, were particularly prominent…” 



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