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Interesting example of speed shooting

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  • John Edgerton
    Just found this on YouTube. Laws Andersen doing some unbelievable shooting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g&feature=em-uploademail Jon
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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      Just found this on YouTube.  Laws Andersen doing some unbelievable shooting.


      Jon





      larsandersen23 just uploaded a video ?>
      larsandersen23 has uploaded Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery..
      Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery.
      Faster than Legolas!
      A historical technique much faster than the known.

      The Danish archers Lars Andersen has rediscovered. an old and very fast way to shoot bows.

      To compare speed
      I have added 4 other good fast archers together !
      to show the time it takes to shoot 10 arrows.

      It is completely unscientific and not objectively
      The 4 other archers can probably shoot faster than these video.

      1: Lajos Kassai famous and fabulous Hungarian.
      Fastest horseback shooting in the world !
      He was the one who first inspired me to fast shooting.
      Shoot and teach the horses and archery system
      he has developed.
      A system based on pre angerede arrows.

      2: Iza Privezenceva tough Russian girl.
      Fastest quiver shooting in the world!
      She shoots a new and very interesting inverse system developed by Seregedel.

      3: DasDaan Dutch archer
      He shoots a ""classic"" quiver system

      4: Bo " CombatArchery" cole American archer.
      Shoot and teach the system he has developed
      A fairly simple s...
      More videos. New Features. The official iPhone app is here. Get it now.
      You were sent this email because you chose to receive updates about new videos uploaded by larsandersen23. If you don't want these updates anymore, you can change your preferences by visiting My Subscriptions.
      ©2012 YouTube, LLC 901 Cherry Ave, San Bruno, CA 94066
    • Frank Schalles
      This should help my Royal Rounds score :-) Francois de Lions ... -- Change is a function of the Universe, embrace it. This should help my Royal Rounds score
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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        This should help my Royal Rounds score :-)
        Francois de Lions

        On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:33 AM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:


        Just found this on YouTube.  Laws Andersen doing some unbelievable shooting.


        Jon





        larsandersen23 has uploaded Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery..
        Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery.
        Faster than Legolas!
        A historical technique much faster than the known.

        The Danish archers Lars Andersen has rediscovered. an old and very fast way to shoot bows.

        To compare speed
        I have added 4 other good fast archers together !
        to show the time it takes to shoot 10 arrows.

        It is completely unscientific and not objectively
        The 4 other archers can probably shoot faster than these video.

        1: Lajos Kassai famous and fabulous Hungarian.
        Fastest horseback shooting in the world !
        He was the one who first inspired me to fast shooting.
        Shoot and teach the horses and archery system
        he has developed.
        A system based on pre angerede arrows.

        2: Iza Privezenceva tough Russian girl.
        Fastest quiver shooting in the world!
        She shoots a new and very interesting inverse system developed by Seregedel.

        3: DasDaan Dutch archer
        He shoots a ""classic"" quiver system

        4: Bo " CombatArchery" cole American archer.
        Shoot and teach the system he has developed
        A fairly simple s...
        More videos. New Features. The official iPhone app is here. Get it now.
        You were sent this email because you chose to receive updates about new videos uploaded by larsandersen23. If you don't want these updates anymore, you can change your preferences by visiting My Subscriptions.
        ©2012 YouTube, LLC 901 Cherry Ave, San Bruno, CA 94066





        --
        Change is a function of the Universe, embrace it.

      • JDS
        Pretty cool stuff wow Lars with awink & lol it is too bad that we have the old boning filmstrip voice and cant see whats he is doing very well might have to
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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          Pretty cool stuff wow Lars
          with awink & lol it is too bad that we have
          the "old boning filmstrip voice"
          and cant see whats he is doing very well
          might have to poke at more videos
          cheer
          happy holidays
          Johann
          an tir
        • John Edgerton
          His videos seem to show that it is possible to do. However, he never really shows just how he does it, no close ups of his string hand loading and shooting
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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            His videos seem to show that it is possible to do.  However, he never really shows just how he does it, no close ups of his string hand loading and shooting the arrows.

            Jon


            From: Frank Schalles <francisschalles@...>
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, November 26, 2012 8:45:48 AM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Interesting example of speed shooting

             

            This should help my Royal Rounds score :-)
            Francois de Lions

            On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:33 AM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:


            Just found this on YouTube.  Laws Andersen doing some unbelievable shooting.


            Jon





            larsandersen23 has uploaded Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery..
            Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery.
            Faster than Legolas!
            A historical technique much faster than the known.

            The Danish archers Lars Andersen has rediscovered. an old and very fast way to shoot bows.

            To compare speed
            I have added 4 other good fast archers together !
            to show the time it takes to shoot 10 arrows.

            It is completely unscientific and not objectively
            The 4 other archers can probably shoot faster than these video.

            1: Lajos Kassai famous and fabulous Hungarian.
            Fastest horseback shooting in the world !
            He was the one who first inspired me to fast shooting.
            Shoot and teach the horses and archery system
            he has developed.
            A system based on pre angerede arrows.

            2: Iza Privezenceva tough Russian girl.
            Fastest quiver shooting in the world!
            She shoots a new and very interesting inverse system developed by Seregedel.

            3: DasDaan Dutch archer
            He shoots a ""classic"" quiver system

            4: Bo " CombatArchery" cole American archer.
            Shoot and teach the system he has developed
            A fairly simple s...
            More videos. New Features. The official iPhone app is here. Get it now.
            You were sent this email because you chose to receive updates about new videos uploaded by larsandersen23. If you don't want these updates anymore, you can change your preferences by visiting My Subscriptions.
            ©2012 YouTube, LLC 901 Cherry Ave, San Bruno, CA 94066





            --
            Change is a function of the Universe, embrace it.

          • Frank Schalles
            This looks like a challenge to figure out how it is done, and then report to the group. What say you? Francois de Lions, Ansteorra ... -- Change is a function
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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              This looks like a challenge to figure out how it is done, and then report to the group.

              What say you?

              Francois de Lions,
              Ansteorra

              On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 11:02 AM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:


              His videos seem to show that it is possible to do.  However, he never really shows just how he does it, no close ups of his string hand loading and shooting the arrows.

              Jon


              From: Frank Schalles <francisschalles@...>
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, November 26, 2012 8:45:48 AM
              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Interesting example of speed shooting

               

              This should help my Royal Rounds score :-)
              Francois de Lions

              On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:33 AM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:


              Just found this on YouTube.  Laws Andersen doing some unbelievable shooting.


              Jon





              larsandersen23 has uploaded Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery..
              Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery.
              Faster than Legolas!
              A historical technique much faster than the known.

              The Danish archers Lars Andersen has rediscovered. an old and very fast way to shoot bows.

              To compare speed
              I have added 4 other good fast archers together !
              to show the time it takes to shoot 10 arrows.

              It is completely unscientific and not objectively
              The 4 other archers can probably shoot faster than these video.

              1: Lajos Kassai famous and fabulous Hungarian.
              Fastest horseback shooting in the world !
              He was the one who first inspired me to fast shooting.
              Shoot and teach the horses and archery system
              he has developed.
              A system based on pre angerede arrows.

              2: Iza Privezenceva tough Russian girl.
              Fastest quiver shooting in the world!
              She shoots a new and very interesting inverse system developed by Seregedel.

              3: DasDaan Dutch archer
              He shoots a ""classic"" quiver system

              4: Bo " CombatArchery" cole American archer.
              Shoot and teach the system he has developed
              A fairly simple s...
              More videos. New Features. The official iPhone app is here. Get it now.
              You were sent this email because you chose to receive updates about new videos uploaded by larsandersen23. If you don't want these updates anymore, you can change your preferences by visiting My Subscriptions.
              ©2012 YouTube, LLC 901 Cherry Ave, San Bruno, CA 94066





              --
              Change is a function of the Universe, embrace it.






              --
              Change is a function of the Universe, embrace it.

            • Ken Dolphin
              larsandersen23 just uploaded a video ? I wonder how he would do with period arrows. Also, how would he do from the back of a horse. Someone in the SCA should
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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                larsandersen23 just uploaded a video ?>
                I wonder how he would do with period arrows. Also, how would he do from the back of a horse. Someone in the SCA should get him to shoot a thirty second speed round.
                 
                KOS
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 8:33 AM
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Interesting example of speed shooting

                 

                Just found this on YouTube.  Laws Andersen doing some unbelievable shooting.


                Jon





                larsandersen23 has uploaded Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery..
                Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery.
                Faster than Legolas!
                A historical technique much faster than the known.

                The Danish archers Lars Andersen has rediscovered. an old and very fast way to shoot bows.

                To compare speed
                I have added 4 other good fast archers together !
                to show the time it takes to shoot 10 arrows.

                It is completely unscientific and not objectively
                The 4 other archers can probably shoot faster than these video.

                1: Lajos Kassai famous and fabulous Hungarian.
                Fastest horseback shooting in the world !
                He was the one who first inspired me to fast shooting.
                Shoot and teach the horses and archery system
                he has developed.
                A system based on pre angerede arrows.

                2: Iza Privezenceva tough Russian girl.
                Fastest quiver shooting in the world!
                She shoots a new and very interesting inverse system developed by Seregedel.

                3: DasDaan Dutch archer
                He shoots a ""classic"" quiver system

                4: Bo " CombatArchery" cole American archer.
                Shoot and teach the system he has developed
                A fairly simple s...
                More videos. New Features. The official iPhone app is here. Get it now.
                You were sent this email because you chose to receive updates about new videos uploaded by larsandersen23. If you don't want these updates anymore, you can change your preferences by visiting My Subscriptions.
                ©2012 YouTube, LLC 901 Cherry Ave, San Bruno, CA 94066

              • Joe Klovance
                Here are a few factors that probably help the speed;1. Low poundage bow. less effort to draw2. Short range. less need to aim well.3. Short draw. Less time to
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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                  Here are a few factors that probably help the speed;
                  1. Low poundage bow. less effort to draw
                  2. Short range. less need to aim well.
                  3. Short draw. Less time to draw.

                  It looks like he holds the bundle in his left hand against the bow, pulls an arrow onto the string, draws, and shoots through the bundle. The sounds are great but it is in a small room and the target material really helps.
                  I bet in combat conditions his arrows would just piss of a person in armour. Speed isn't everything. Sure he can get a lot of arrows down range but if they are ineffective then why do it? This reminds me of the arrow scene from Apocalypse Now.

                  Gryffyd
                • John Edgerton
                  He has been asked on YouTube before by his viewers to explain how he does this. However, he never explains. It would be important to know what type of nock he
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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                    He has been asked on YouTube before by his viewers to explain how he does this.  However, he never explains.  

                    It would be important to know what type of nock he is using on the arrows and what his release is. 

                    Jon


                    From: Frank Schalles <francisschalles@...>
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, November 26, 2012 9:06:03 AM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Interesting example of speed shooting

                     

                    This looks like a challenge to figure out how it is done, and then report to the group.

                    What say you?

                    Francois de Lions,
                    Ansteorra

                    On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 11:02 AM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:


                    His videos seem to show that it is possible to do.  However, he never really shows just how he does it, no close ups of his string hand loading and shooting the arrows.

                    Jon


                    From: Frank Schalles <francisschalles@...>
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, November 26, 2012 8:45:48 AM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Interesting example of speed shooting

                     

                    This should help my Royal Rounds score :-)
                    Francois de Lions

                    On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:33 AM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:


                    Just found this on YouTube.  Laws Andersen doing some unbelievable shooting.


                    Jon





                    larsandersen23 has uploaded Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery..
                    Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery.
                    Faster than Legolas!
                    A historical technique much faster than the known.

                    The Danish archers Lars Andersen has rediscovered. an old and very fast way to shoot bows.

                    To compare speed
                    I have added 4 other good fast archers together !
                    to show the time it takes to shoot 10 arrows.

                    It is completely unscientific and not objectively
                    The 4 other archers can probably shoot faster than these video.

                    1: Lajos Kassai famous and fabulous Hungarian.
                    Fastest horseback shooting in the world !
                    He was the one who first inspired me to fast shooting.
                    Shoot and teach the horses and archery system
                    he has developed.
                    A system based on pre angerede arrows.

                    2: Iza Privezenceva tough Russian girl.
                    Fastest quiver shooting in the world!
                    She shoots a new and very interesting inverse system developed by Seregedel.

                    3: DasDaan Dutch archer
                    He shoots a ""classic"" quiver system

                    4: Bo " CombatArchery" cole American archer.
                    Shoot and teach the system he has developed
                    A fairly simple s...
                    More videos. New Features. The official iPhone app is here. Get it now.
                    You were sent this email because you chose to receive updates about new videos uploaded by larsandersen23. If you don't want these updates anymore, you can change your preferences by visiting My Subscriptions.
                    ©2012 YouTube, LLC 901 Cherry Ave, San Bruno, CA 94066





                    --
                    Change is a function of the Universe, embrace it.






                    --
                    Change is a function of the Universe, embrace it.

                  • Mackenzie Morgan
                    It looks like he pinches the back of the arrow between thumb and knuckle rather than wrapping his fingers around the string. It also looks like he s holding
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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                      It looks like he pinches the back of the arrow between thumb and
                      knuckle rather than wrapping his fingers around the string. It also
                      looks like he's holding the remaining arrows between his drawing
                      hand's fingers.

                      Grazia
                    • John Rossignol
                      Also: 4. Low poundage bow: can get away with using some sort of fast-but-weak pinch grip instead of a more-secure 3-finger or Mongolian grip. -John
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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                        Also:
                        4. Low poundage bow: can get away with using some sort of fast-but-weak pinch grip instead of a more-secure 3-finger or Mongolian grip.

                        -John

                        On 11/26/2012 11:54 AM, Joe Klovance wrote:
                        Here are a few factors that probably help the speed;
                        1. Low poundage bow. less effort to draw
                        2. Short range. less need to aim well.
                        3. Short draw. Less time to draw.


                      • Joe Klovance
                        I am wondering if he even uses knocks. If one pushed forward on the string with the flesh between the thumb and forefinger, grasped the arrow at the end and
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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                          I am wondering if he even uses knocks. If one pushed forward on the string with the flesh between the thumb and forefinger, grasped the arrow at the end and pilled back the string will rest on the end of the arrow long enough for the short draw. Another option would be a square ended shaft with two knocks cut in it perpendicular to each other. That way when he pinched the arrow between his thumb and forefinger a knock is lined up with the string.

                          Another thing about Youtube videos is how many takes did he do to get perfect ones?  It looks easy but he may have done it 20 times to get the shot.

                          I realize I am being very negative but I am skeptical about these trick shots.

                          Gryffyd

                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          From: giguette@...
                          Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:39:54 -0800
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Interesting example of speed shooting

                           

                          Also:
                          4. Low poundage bow: can get away with using some sort of fast-but-weak pinch grip instead of a more-secure 3-finger or Mongolian grip.

                          -John

                          On 11/26/2012 11:54 AM, Joe Klovance wrote:
                          Here are a few factors that probably help the speed;
                          1. Low poundage bow. less effort to draw
                          2. Short range. less need to aim well.
                          3. Short draw. Less time to draw.



                        • Bernal Schooley
                          Really people...? ... He does show stop motion footage of how he s doing it at 2:50 and 3:20. He s pretty clearly using a locked thumb kinda like a thumb ring
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
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                            Really people...?

                            He does show stop motion footage of how he's doing it at 2:50 and 3:20. He's pretty clearly using a locked thumb kinda like a thumb ring without the ring. And it looks like he may be putting pressure on the string with his middle and/or ring finger given the angle of the string in some shots.

                            In the credits at the end he says he's using #30 and #35 bows.

                            At 2:55, you can see he's got basic off the shelf carbon arrows with simple plastic nocks.

                            There several places where you can see he's holding the arrows by the nock between his shooting hand fingers.

                            ...

                            Now, what I don't understand is why people feel the need to dismiss him as some sort of charlatan.

                          • James Koch
                            Gentlemen & Ladies, ... From time to time over the years a discussion starts on this forum regarding the creation of a new type of tournament to augment the
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 4, 2013
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                              Gentlemen & Ladies,
                              >
                              From time to time over the years a discussion starts on this forum regarding the creation of a new type of tournament to augment the Royal Round, IKAC & etc...  Many people do not believe that the existing standardized competitions give a well rounded view of the skill of many archers.  Some people expressed the need for a way of recording and comparing the standings of competitors in large tournament shot at SCA events.  More recently we had the discussion pertaining to finding and recognizing the top archers in the SCA.  This was engendered by the news that the BOD was considering the possibility of new martial Peerages in addition to Knighthoods for armored combatants.  The idea was suggested that we need something in the archery community similar to the crown tournaments of the armored combatants.
                              A number of us realized that the task of designing such a tournament could not be accomplished in a large public forum.  We therefore formed a small group to hash out how such a non standardized tournament could be run, scored, what rules would be required, and how the scores could be tabulated, recorded, and displayed.
                              Late last Summer a Grand Archery Tournament was held in the Middle Kingdom according to these rules as a test.  As a result of the test tournament, the rules were modified and improved.  Additionally a spread sheet was created to automatically calculate the percentile rankings once the raw scores were entered.
                              We believe the proposed rules are now ready for public comment prior to creating the scores page.  These follow.  We welcome your feedback. 
                              >
                              Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"      
                              >
                              >
                              Welcome to the Grand Archery Tournament Official page! The Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for short, is a system that allows all the archers in the Knowne World to compete in local tournaments and compare their performance to archers elsewhere in the SCA.  Many archers shoot Royal Rounds, IKACs, and similar standardized competitions where the target type, ranges, and number of ends are the same whenever shot.  A means needed to be devised to record scores and compare archer’s resulting standings in non-standardized tournaments as shot at most large events where archery is included.  The GAT is an attempt to address this need. 
                               
                              The intent of the GAT is therefore to allow scores obtained during non-standardized shoots to be recorded, and competitor’s final standings to be calculated based on their performance relative to the other shooters.  For the sake of fairness at this time the GAT is divided into only two simple divisions, one for hand bows, and one for crossbows.  A Grand Archery Tournament consists of one or many shoots, each with a numeric score.  Once the shoots have been completed, all of the participant’s scores are submitted to the Keeper Of The GAT who will calculate the resulting standing of each shooter relative to the other competitors.  The winner of the tournament will be assigned a standing of 100, while the others will have standings calculated as a percentage of the winner’s score.
                               
                              The formula for calculating standings is as follows. 
                              Standing = ((Score – Lowest-score) / (Highest-score – Lowest-score)) * 100
                              In a GAT where eight crossbow shooters turned in numeric scores of 33, 29, 20, 20, 19, 13, 12, and 8, the resulting standings would be 100, 84, 48, 48, 44, 20, 16, and 0. 
                               
                              The participant’s “name”, “kingdom”, “division” (bow type), “total GATs entered”, “sum of all standings”, “tournament place and date, and standing” are then recorded.  A record is posted to the GAT scores page.  Only participants who have shot at least one tournament with a standing of 50 or higher will have their record automatically posted to the scores page.  This cut off is necessary due to space and other limitations too numerous to list here.  If you have shot one or more GATS and none of your standings have reached the 50% or above threshold, you may contact the keeper of the scores and request that a record be displayed showing your standings down to whatever limit you deem necessary, and your record will be added to the GAT standings page. 
                               
                              In the above example where eight crossbow shooters participated, only the individuals who earned standings of 100 and 84 would have records automatically added to the scores page, if they did not already have a previous record posted.  If one of the shooters with a score of 48 already had one earlier GAT tournament posted, with a standing of 60, his “total GATs entered” would be increased to 2 and his “sum of all standings” would total 60 + 48 = 108.           
                                  
                              If you have any questions, comments, or criticisms, do not hesitate to write to me Joe The Scorekeeper.
                               
                                                                            Marshal Accounts
                              If you are a marshal, have not already gotten an account, and would be willing to submit your scores via the site, please send me an email with "Account Request" as the subject. The email must include your Mundane name, Scadian Name, Home Kingdom/Group, and Email address. Scores which are submitted via the site will be given priority for getting approved and included in the official standings.
                               
                                          Grand Archery Tournament “GAT” Format and Requirements
                              Any archery competition can be designated a GAT.  However, if the resulting standings are to be calculated and posted to the official GAT scores page, the following criteria must be met.
                               
                              A minimum of 20 hand bow and/or 6 crossbow competitors must enter the GAT to assure the presence of a range of skill levels among the shooters.  If too few competitors enter, the scores for that division will not be valid and will not be calculated and posted to the official GAT scores page.  The GAT is intended as an advanced tournament and as such does not AT THIS TIME offer a youth division.  However, all archers are welcome to compete regardless of age and ability.  What if you don’t have enough people to hold a GAT in your area?  1) Train more archers.  2) Invite skilled competitors from surrounding kingdoms.  3) Design a competition made up of shoots that can be reproduced and shot at several events in several locations.  So long as the locations provide similar conditions, the standings can be accurately calculated.  As an example, if there are only 6 crossbow shooters in your entire kingdom, devise a tournament that can be set up at two or three events that all six crossbow shooters can attend.  This could simply consist of a Royal Round or a RR and one or more novelty shoots.  Announce on your kingdom calendar that a GAT will be shot at the X, Y, and Z events.  Once the shoots are complete, submit the individual RR scores to your kingdom scorekeeper, and submit the combined RR and any novelty shoot scores to the Keeper Of The GAT.  Of the 6 scores submitted, the top 2 or 3 shooters will have their standings posted to the GAT scores page.     

                              To be official, the competition must be shot at an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it will be held.  Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or unofficial gatherings even if enough participants are present.  This rule has been added to assure the maximum number of participants the opportunity to compete.  So long as you can get enough people to compete to meet the minimum number requirements, your kingdom can host as many GATs per year as you wish.  Ideally a large kingdom ought to host multiple GATs far enough apart to allow everyone a chance to submit a score.
                              Equipment that is allowed in your kingdom according to your archery rules may be used in a GAT.  Each GAT consists of two Divisions: Open Handbow, including period and modern equipment, and Open Crossbow, also including period and modern equipment.  Any shoot with a numeric score can be included in a GAT. 
                               
                              Certain basic information must be recorded and provided to the scorekeeper.  This information must include The date or dates of the shoot, the place or places where the shoot was held, consisting of kingdom and group, the names of the participants, their home groups, their home kingdoms, their division (bow type), and their numeric score.  Ties do not present a problem.  If a participant was unable to complete the shoot for some reason, the partial score will be provided.  If no partial score is provided, a score of zero will be assigned.  Only the top 50% of submitted scores will be calculated and posted to the GAT standings page.  So non-completion of a GAT due to illness or an equipment failure will not adversely affect an individuals posted standing.  
                               
                              To ease and assist submitting the scores, a scores entry page has been created.  Data may be entered in any order.  The resulting standings will be posted to the official page within two weeks.
                            • Jim Pickette
                              Dear Gladius - This is a great help to those who wish GOA and related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ? JoO Calontir
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 4, 2013
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                                Dear Gladius -
                                This is a great help to those who wish GOA and related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?


                                JoO
                                Calontir

                                ---- James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                                > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                > >
                                > From time to time over the years a discussion
                                > starts on this forum regarding the creation of a
                                > new type of tournament to augment the Royal
                                > Round, IKAC & etc... Many people do not believe
                                > that the existing standardized competitions give
                                > a well rounded view of the skill of many
                                > archers. Some people expressed the need for a
                                > way of recording and comparing the standings of
                                > competitors in large tournament shot at SCA
                                > events. More recently we had the discussion
                                > pertaining to finding and recognizing the top
                                > archers in the SCA. This was engendered by the
                                > news that the BOD was considering the possibility
                                > of new martial Peerages in addition to
                                > Knighthoods for armored combatants. The idea was
                                > suggested that we need something in the archery
                                > community similar to the crown tournaments of the armored combatants.
                                > A number of us realized that the task of
                                > designing such a tournament could not be
                                > accomplished in a large public forum. We
                                > therefore formed a small group to hash out how
                                > such a non standardized tournament could be run,
                                > scored, what rules would be required, and how the
                                > scores could be tabulated, recorded, and displayed.
                                > Late last Summer a Grand Archery Tournament was
                                > held in the Middle Kingdom according to these
                                > rules as a test. As a result of the test
                                > tournament, the rules were modified and
                                > improved. Additionally a spread sheet was
                                > created to automatically calculate the percentile
                                > rankings once the raw scores were entered.
                                > We believe the proposed rules are now ready for
                                > public comment prior to creating the scores
                                > page. These follow. We welcome your feedback.
                                > >
                                > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                > >
                                > >
                                > Welcome to the Grand Archery Tournament Official
                                > page! The Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for
                                > short, is a system that allows all the archers in
                                > the Knowne World to compete in local tournaments
                                > and compare their performance to archers
                                > elsewhere in the SCA. Many archers shoot Royal
                                > Rounds, IKACs, and similar standardized
                                > competitions where the target type, ranges, and
                                > number of ends are the same whenever shot. A
                                > means needed to be devised to record scores and
                                > compare archer’s resulting standings in
                                > non-standardized tournaments as shot at most
                                > large events where archery is included. The GAT
                                > is an attempt to address this need.
                                >
                                > The intent of the GAT is therefore to allow
                                > scores obtained during non-standardized shoots to
                                > be recorded, and competitor’s final standings to
                                > be calculated based on their performance relative
                                > to the other shooters. For the sake of fairness
                                > at this time the GAT is divided into only two
                                > simple divisions, one for hand bows, and one for
                                > crossbows. A Grand Archery Tournament consists
                                > of one or many shoots, each with a numeric
                                > score. Once the shoots have been completed, all
                                > of the participant’s scores are submitted to the
                                > Keeper Of The GAT who will calculate the
                                > resulting standing of each shooter relative to
                                > the other competitors. The winner of the
                                > tournament will be assigned a standing of 100,
                                > while the others will have standings calculated
                                > as a percentage of the winner’s score.
                                >
                                > The formula for calculating standings is as follows.
                                > Standing = ((Score – Lowest-score) / (Highest-score – Lowest-score)) * 100
                                > In a GAT where eight crossbow shooters turned in
                                > numeric scores of 33, 29, 20, 20, 19, 13, 12, and
                                > 8, the resulting standings would be 100, 84, 48, 48, 44, 20, 16, and 0.
                                >
                                > The participant’s “name”, “kingdom”, “division”
                                > (bow type), “total GATs entered”, “sum of all
                                > standings”, “tournament place and date, and
                                > standing” are then recorded. A record is posted
                                > to the GAT scores page. Only participants who
                                > have shot at least one tournament with a standing
                                > of 50 or higher will have their record
                                > automatically posted to the scores page. This
                                > cut off is necessary due to space and other
                                > limitations too numerous to list here. If you
                                > have shot one or more GATS and none of your
                                > standings have reached the 50% or above
                                > threshold, you may contact the keeper of the
                                > scores and request that a record be displayed
                                > showing your standings down to whatever limit you
                                > deem necessary, and your record will be added to the GAT standings page.
                                >
                                > In the above example where eight crossbow
                                > shooters participated, only the individuals who
                                > earned standings of 100 and 84 would have records
                                > automatically added to the scores page, if they
                                > did not already have a previous record
                                > posted. If one of the shooters with a score of
                                > 48 already had one earlier GAT tournament posted,
                                > with a standing of 60, his “total GATs entered”
                                > would be increased to 2 and his “sum of all
                                > standings” would total 60 + 48 = 108.
                                >
                                > If you have any questions, comments, or
                                > criticisms, do not hesitate to write to me Joe The Scorekeeper.
                                >
                                > Marshal Accounts
                                > If you are a marshal, have not already gotten an
                                > account, and would be willing to submit your
                                > scores via the site, please send me an email with
                                > "Account Request" as the subject. The email must
                                > include your Mundane name, Scadian Name, Home
                                > Kingdom/Group, and Email address. Scores which
                                > are submitted via the site will be given priority
                                > for getting approved and included in the official standings.
                                >
                                > Grand Archery Tournament “GAT” Format and Requirements
                                > Any archery competition can be designated a
                                > GAT. However, if the resulting standings are to
                                > be calculated and posted to the official GAT
                                > scores page, the following criteria must be met.
                                >
                                > A minimum of 20 hand bow and/or 6 crossbow
                                > competitors must enter the GAT to assure the
                                > presence of a range of skill levels among the
                                > shooters. If too few competitors enter, the
                                > scores for that division will not be valid and
                                > will not be calculated and posted to the official
                                > GAT scores page. The GAT is intended as an
                                > advanced tournament and as such does not AT THIS
                                > TIME offer a youth division. However, all
                                > archers are welcome to compete regardless of age
                                > and ability. What if you don’t have enough
                                > people to hold a GAT in your area? 1) Train more
                                > archers. 2) Invite skilled competitors from
                                > surrounding kingdoms. 3) Design a competition
                                > made up of shoots that can be reproduced and shot
                                > at several events in several locations. So long
                                > as the locations provide similar conditions, the
                                > standings can be accurately calculated. As an
                                > example, if there are only 6 crossbow shooters in
                                > your entire kingdom, devise a tournament that can
                                > be set up at two or three events that all six
                                > crossbow shooters can attend. This could simply
                                > consist of a Royal Round or a RR and one or more
                                > novelty shoots. Announce on your kingdom
                                > calendar that a GAT will be shot at the X, Y, and
                                > Z events. Once the shoots are complete, submit
                                > the individual RR scores to your kingdom
                                > scorekeeper, and submit the combined RR and any
                                > novelty shoot scores to the Keeper Of The
                                > GAT. Of the 6 scores submitted, the top 2 or 3
                                > shooters will have their standings posted to the GAT scores page.
                                >
                                > To be official, the competition must be shot at
                                > an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in
                                > which it will be held. Unlike Royal Round and
                                > IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or
                                > unofficial gatherings even if enough participants
                                > are present. This rule has been added to assure
                                > the maximum number of participants the
                                > opportunity to compete. So long as you can get
                                > enough people to compete to meet the minimum
                                > number requirements, your kingdom can host as
                                > many GATs per year as you wish. Ideally a large
                                > kingdom ought to host multiple GATs far enough
                                > apart to allow everyone a chance to submit a score.
                                > Equipment that is allowed in your kingdom
                                > according to your archery rules may be used in a
                                > GAT. Each GAT consists of two Divisions: Open
                                > Handbow, including period and modern equipment,
                                > and Open Crossbow, also including period and
                                > modern equipment. Any shoot with a numeric score can be included in a GAT.
                                >
                                > Certain basic information must be recorded and
                                > provided to the scorekeeper. This information
                                > must include The date or dates of the shoot, the
                                > place or places where the shoot was held,
                                > consisting of kingdom and group, the names of the
                                > participants, their home groups, their home
                                > kingdoms, their division (bow type), and their
                                > numeric score. Ties do not present a
                                > problem. If a participant was unable to complete
                                > the shoot for some reason, the partial score will
                                > be provided. If no partial score is provided, a
                                > score of zero will be assigned. Only the top 50%
                                > of submitted scores will be calculated and posted
                                > to the GAT standings page. So non-completion of
                                > a GAT due to illness or an equipment failure will
                                > not adversely affect an individuals posted standing.
                                >
                                > To ease and assist submitting the scores, a
                                > scores entry page has been created. Data may be
                                > entered in any order. The resulting standings
                                > will be posted to the official page within two weeks.
                              • Bill Tait
                                One question: To be official, the competition must be shot at an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it will be held. Unlike Royal Round and
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 4, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  One question:

                                  "To be official, the competition must be shot at an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it will be held.  Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or unofficial gatherings even if enough participants are present.  This rule has been added to assure the maximum number of participants the opportunity to compete."

                                  Huh? This would actually reduce the number of possible competitors. We have a number of archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't get me wrong, I support having "At events only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.

                                  William Arwemakere

                                  On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette <pickette@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Dear Gladius -
                                  This is a great help to those who wish GOA and related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?

                                  JoO
                                  Calontir



                                  ---- James Koch alchem@...> wrote:
                                  > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                  > >
                                  > From time to time over the years a discussion
                                  > starts on this forum regarding the creation of a
                                  > new type of tournament to augment the Royal
                                  > Round, IKAC & etc... Many people do not believe
                                  > that the existing standardized competitions give
                                  > a well rounded view of the skill of many
                                  > archers. Some people expressed the need for a
                                  > way of recording and comparing the standings of
                                  > competitors in large tournament shot at SCA
                                  > events. More recently we had the discussion
                                  > pertaining to finding and recognizing the top
                                  > archers in the SCA. This was engendered by the
                                  > news that the BOD was considering the possibility
                                  > of new martial Peerages in addition to
                                  > Knighthoods for armored combatants. The idea was
                                  > suggested that we need something in the archery
                                  > community similar to the crown tournaments of the armored combatants.
                                  > A number of us realized that the task of
                                  > designing such a tournament could not be
                                  > accomplished in a large public forum. We
                                  > therefore formed a small group to hash out how
                                  > such a non standardized tournament could be run,
                                  > scored, what rules would be required, and how the
                                  > scores could be tabulated, recorded, and displayed.
                                  > Late last Summer a Grand Archery Tournament was
                                  > held in the Middle Kingdom according to these
                                  > rules as a test. As a result of the test
                                  > tournament, the rules were modified and
                                  > improved. Additionally a spread sheet was
                                  > created to automatically calculate the percentile
                                  > rankings once the raw scores were entered.
                                  > We believe the proposed rules are now ready for
                                  > public comment prior to creating the scores
                                  > page. These follow. We welcome your feedback.
                                  > >
                                  > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > Welcome to the Grand Archery Tournament Official
                                  > page! The Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for
                                  > short, is a system that allows all the archers in
                                  > the Knowne World to compete in local tournaments
                                  > and compare their performance to archers
                                  > elsewhere in the SCA. Many archers shoot Royal
                                  > Rounds, IKACs, and similar standardized
                                  > competitions where the target type, ranges, and
                                  > number of ends are the same whenever shot. A
                                  > means needed to be devised to record scores and
                                  > compare archer’s resulting standings in
                                  > non-standardized tournaments as shot at most
                                  > large events where archery is included. The GAT
                                  > is an attempt to address this need.
                                  >
                                  > The intent of the GAT is therefore to allow
                                  > scores obtained during non-standardized shoots to
                                  > be recorded, and competitor’s final standings to
                                  > be calculated based on their performance relative
                                  > to the other shooters. For the sake of fairness
                                  > at this time the GAT is divided into only two
                                  > simple divisions, one for hand bows, and one for
                                  > crossbows. A Grand Archery Tournament consists
                                  > of one or many shoots, each with a numeric
                                  > score. Once the shoots have been completed, all
                                  > of the participant’s scores are submitted to the
                                  > Keeper Of The GAT who will calculate the
                                  > resulting standing of each shooter relative to
                                  > the other competitors. The winner of the
                                  > tournament will be assigned a standing of 100,
                                  > while the others will have standings calculated
                                  > as a percentage of the winner’s score.
                                  >
                                  > The formula for calculating standings is as follows.
                                  > Standing = ((Score – Lowest-score) / (Highest-score – Lowest-score)) * 100
                                  > In a GAT where eight crossbow shooters turned in
                                  > numeric scores of 33, 29, 20, 20, 19, 13, 12, and
                                  > 8, the resulting standings would be 100, 84, 48, 48, 44, 20, 16, and 0.
                                  >
                                  > The participant’s “name”, “kingdom”, “division”
                                  > (bow type), “total GATs entered”, “sum of all
                                  > standings”, “tournament place and date, and
                                  > standing” are then recorded. A record is posted
                                  > to the GAT scores page. Only participants who
                                  > have shot at least one tournament with a standing
                                  > of 50 or higher will have their record
                                  > automatically posted to the scores page. This
                                  > cut off is necessary due to space and other
                                  > limitations too numerous to list here. If you
                                  > have shot one or more GATS and none of your
                                  > standings have reached the 50% or above
                                  > threshold, you may contact the keeper of the
                                  > scores and request that a record be displayed
                                  > showing your standings down to whatever limit you
                                  > deem necessary, and your record will be added to the GAT standings page.
                                  >
                                  > In the above example where eight crossbow
                                  > shooters participated, only the individuals who
                                  > earned standings of 100 and 84 would have records
                                  > automatically added to the scores page, if they
                                  > did not already have a previous record
                                  > posted. If one of the shooters with a score of
                                  > 48 already had one earlier GAT tournament posted,
                                  > with a standing of 60, his “total GATs entered”
                                  > would be increased to 2 and his “sum of all
                                  > standings” would total 60 + 48 = 108.
                                  >
                                  > If you have any questions, comments, or
                                  > criticisms, do not hesitate to write to me Joe The Scorekeeper.
                                  >
                                  > Marshal Accounts
                                  > If you are a marshal, have not already gotten an
                                  > account, and would be willing to submit your
                                  > scores via the site, please send me an email with
                                  > "Account Request" as the subject. The email must
                                  > include your Mundane name, Scadian Name, Home
                                  > Kingdom/Group, and Email address. Scores which
                                  > are submitted via the site will be given priority
                                  > for getting approved and included in the official standings.
                                  >
                                  > Grand Archery Tournament “GAT” Format and Requirements
                                  > Any archery competition can be designated a
                                  > GAT. However, if the resulting standings are to
                                  > be calculated and posted to the official GAT
                                  > scores page, the following criteria must be met.
                                  >
                                  > A minimum of 20 hand bow and/or 6 crossbow
                                  > competitors must enter the GAT to assure the
                                  > presence of a range of skill levels among the
                                  > shooters. If too few competitors enter, the
                                  > scores for that division will not be valid and
                                  > will not be calculated and posted to the official
                                  > GAT scores page. The GAT is intended as an
                                  > advanced tournament and as such does not AT THIS
                                  > TIME offer a youth division. However, all
                                  > archers are welcome to compete regardless of age
                                  > and ability. What if you don’t have enough
                                  > people to hold a GAT in your area? 1) Train more
                                  > archers. 2) Invite skilled competitors from
                                  > surrounding kingdoms. 3) Design a competition
                                  > made up of shoots that can be reproduced and shot
                                  > at several events in several locations. So long
                                  > as the locations provide similar conditions, the
                                  > standings can be accurately calculated. As an
                                  > example, if there are only 6 crossbow shooters in
                                  > your entire kingdom, devise a tournament that can
                                  > be set up at two or three events that all six
                                  > crossbow shooters can attend. This could simply
                                  > consist of a Royal Round or a RR and one or more
                                  > novelty shoots. Announce on your kingdom
                                  > calendar that a GAT will be shot at the X, Y, and
                                  > Z events. Once the shoots are complete, submit
                                  > the individual RR scores to your kingdom
                                  > scorekeeper, and submit the combined RR and any
                                  > novelty shoot scores to the Keeper Of The
                                  > GAT. Of the 6 scores submitted, the top 2 or 3
                                  > shooters will have their standings posted to the GAT scores page.
                                  >
                                  > To be official, the competition must be shot at
                                  > an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in
                                  > which it will be held. Unlike Royal Round and
                                  > IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or
                                  > unofficial gatherings even if enough participants
                                  > are present. This rule has been added to assure
                                  > the maximum number of participants the
                                  > opportunity to compete. So long as you can get
                                  > enough people to compete to meet the minimum
                                  > number requirements, your kingdom can host as
                                  > many GATs per year as you wish. Ideally a large
                                  > kingdom ought to host multiple GATs far enough
                                  > apart to allow everyone a chance to submit a score.
                                  > Equipment that is allowed in your kingdom
                                  > according to your archery rules may be used in a
                                  > GAT. Each GAT consists of two Divisions: Open
                                  > Handbow, including period and modern equipment,
                                  > and Open Crossbow, also including period and
                                  > modern equipment. Any shoot with a numeric score can be included in a GAT.
                                  >
                                  > Certain basic information must be recorded and
                                  > provided to the scorekeeper. This information
                                  > must include The date or dates of the shoot, the
                                  > place or places where the shoot was held,
                                  > consisting of kingdom and group, the names of the
                                  > participants, their home groups, their home
                                  > kingdoms, their division (bow type), and their
                                  > numeric score. Ties do not present a
                                  > problem. If a participant was unable to complete
                                  > the shoot for some reason, the partial score will
                                  > be provided. If no partial score is provided, a
                                  > score of zero will be assigned. Only the top 50%
                                  > of submitted scores will be calculated and posted
                                  > to the GAT standings page. So non-completion of
                                  > a GAT due to illness or an equipment failure will
                                  > not adversely affect an individuals posted standing.
                                  >
                                  > To ease and assist submitting the scores, a
                                  > scores entry page has been created. Data may be
                                  > entered in any order. The resulting standings
                                  > will be posted to the official page within two weeks.


                                • Des & Jan Howard
                                  Gladius In Lochac, because of our insurance requirements, all activities be it a Crown Tourney, a yearly war, a weekly baronial/shire practice, an A&S evening
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 4, 2013
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                                    Gladius
                                    In Lochac, because of our insurance requirements, all
                                    activities be it a Crown Tourney, a yearly war, a
                                    weekly baronial/shire practice, an A&S evening or a
                                    monthly household gathering are the same. All are
                                    announced, all are official events, not all would be in
                                    the Calendar.
                                    Ranif

                                    On 5/01/2013 1:02 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                    > To be official, the competition must be shot at an
                                    > event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it
                                    > will be held. Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs
                                    > may not be shot at practices or unofficial gatherings
                                    > even if enough participants are present. This rule has
                                    > been added to assure the maximum number of participants
                                    > the opportunity to compete.
                                  • Jim Pickette
                                    The rule still seems bass ackwards to its intent. JoO
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 4, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      The rule still seems 'bass ackwards' to its intent.

                                      JoO


                                      ---- Des & Jan Howard <djhoward@...> wrote:
                                      > Gladius
                                      > In Lochac, because of our insurance requirements, all
                                      > activities be it a Crown Tourney, a yearly war, a
                                      > weekly baronial/shire practice, an A&S evening or a
                                      > monthly household gathering are the same. All are
                                      > announced, all are official events, not all would be in
                                      > the Calendar.
                                      > Ranif
                                      >
                                      > On 5/01/2013 1:02 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                      > > To be official, the competition must be shot at an
                                      > > event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it
                                      > > will be held. Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs
                                      > > may not be shot at practices or unofficial gatherings
                                      > > even if enough participants are present. This rule has
                                      > > been added to assure the maximum number of participants
                                      > > the opportunity to compete.
                                      >
                                    • Siegfried
                                      Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia) that have prided themselves at havin unique interesting shoots
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 5, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia) that have prided themselves at havin unique interesting shoots at events. And keeping "stock" shoots (RR, IKAC, Winter) primarily at practices.

                                        Siegfried


                                        On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:

                                        One question:

                                        "To be official, the competition must be shot at an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it will be held.  Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or unofficial gatherings even if enough participants are present.  This rule has been added to assure the maximum number of participants the opportunity to compete."

                                        Huh? This would actually reduce the number of possible competitors. We have a number of archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't get me wrong, I support having "At events only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.

                                        William Arwemakere

                                        On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette <pickette@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        Dear Gladius -
                                        This is a great help to those who wish GOA and related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?

                                        JoO
                                        Calontir



                                        ---- James Koch alchem@...> wrote:
                                        > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                        > >
                                        > From time to time over the years a discussion
                                        > starts on this forum regarding the creation of a
                                        > new type of tournament to augment the Royal
                                        > Round, IKAC & etc... Many people do not believe
                                        > that the existing standardized competitions give
                                        > a well rounded view of the skill of many
                                        > archers. Some people expressed the need for a
                                        > way of recording and comparing the standings of
                                        > competitors in large tournament shot at SCA
                                        > events. More recently we had the discussion
                                        > pertaining to finding and recognizing the top
                                        > archers in the SCA. This was engendered by the
                                        > news that the BOD was considering the possibility
                                        > of new martial Peerages in addition to
                                        > Knighthoods for armored combatants. The idea was
                                        > suggested that we need something in the archery
                                        > community similar to the crown tournaments of the armored combatants.
                                        > A number of us realized that the task of
                                        > designing such a tournament could not be
                                        > accomplished in a large public forum. We
                                        > therefore formed a small group to hash out how
                                        > such a non standardized tournament could be run,
                                        > scored, what rules would be required, and how the
                                        > scores could be tabulated, recorded, and displayed.
                                        > Late last Summer a Grand Archery Tournament was
                                        > held in the Middle Kingdom according to these
                                        > rules as a test. As a result of the test
                                        > tournament, the rules were modified and
                                        > improved. Additionally a spread sheet was
                                        > created to automatically calculate the percentile
                                        > rankings once the raw scores were entered.
                                        > We believe the proposed rules are now ready for
                                        > public comment prior to creating the scores
                                        > page. These follow. We welcome your feedback.
                                        > >
                                        > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > Welcome to the Grand Archery Tournament Official
                                        > page! The Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for
                                        > short, is a system that allows all the archers in
                                        > the Knowne World to compete in local tournaments
                                        > and compare their performance to archers
                                        > elsewhere in the SCA. Many archers shoot Royal
                                        > Rounds, IKACs, and similar standardized
                                        > competitions where the target type, ranges, and
                                        > number of ends are the same whenever shot. A
                                        > means needed to be devised to record scores and
                                        > compare archer’s resulting standings in
                                        > non-standardized tournaments as shot at most
                                        > large events where archery is included. The GAT
                                        > is an attempt to address this need.
                                        >
                                        > The intent of the GAT is therefore to allow
                                        > scores obtained during non-standardized shoots to
                                        > be recorded, and competitor’s final standings to
                                        > be calculated based on their performance relative
                                        > to the other shooters. For the sake of fairness
                                        > at this time the GAT is divided into only two
                                        > simple divisions, one for hand bows, and one for
                                        > crossbows. A Grand Archery Tournament consists
                                        > of one or many shoots, each with a numeric
                                        > score. Once the shoots have been completed, all
                                        > of the participant’s scores are submitted to the
                                        > Keeper Of The GAT who will calculate the
                                        > resulting standing of each shooter relative to
                                        > the other competitors. The winner of the
                                        > tournament will be assigned a standing of 100,
                                        > while the others will have standings calculated
                                        > as a percentage of the winner’s score.
                                        >
                                        > The formula for calculating standings is as follows.
                                        > Standing = ((Score – Lowest-score) / (Highest-score – Lowest-score)) * 100
                                        > In a GAT where eight crossbow shooters turned in
                                        > numeric scores of 33, 29, 20, 20, 19, 13, 12, and
                                        > 8, the resulting standings would be 100, 84, 48, 48, 44, 20, 16, and 0.
                                        >
                                        > The participant’s “name”, “kingdom”, “division”
                                        > (bow type), “total GATs entered”, “sum of all
                                        > standings”, “tournament place and date, and
                                        > standing” are then recorded. A record is posted
                                        > to the GAT scores page. Only participants who
                                        > have shot at least one tournament with a standing
                                        > of 50 or higher will have their record
                                        > automatically posted to the scores page. This
                                        > cut off is necessary due to space and other
                                        > limitations too numerous to list here. If you
                                        > have shot one or more GATS and none of your
                                        > standings have reached the 50% or above
                                        > threshold, you may contact the keeper of the
                                        > scores and request that a record be displayed
                                        > showing your standings down to whatever limit you
                                        > deem necessary, and your record will be added to the GAT standings page.
                                        >
                                        > In the above example where eight crossbow
                                        > shooters participated, only the individuals who
                                        > earned standings of 100 and 84 would have records
                                        > automatically added to the scores page, if they
                                        > did not already have a previous record
                                        > posted. If one of the shooters with a score of
                                        > 48 already had one earlier GAT tournament posted,
                                        > with a standing of 60, his “total GATs entered”
                                        > would be increased to 2 and his “sum of all
                                        > standings” would total 60 + 48 = 108.
                                        >
                                        > If you have any questions, comments, or
                                        > criticisms, do not hesitate to write to me Joe The Scorekeeper.
                                        >
                                        > Marshal Accounts
                                        > If you are a marshal, have not already gotten an
                                        > account, and would be willing to submit your
                                        > scores via the site, please send me an email with
                                        > "Account Request" as the subject. The email must
                                        > include your Mundane name, Scadian Name, Home
                                        > Kingdom/Group, and Email address. Scores which
                                        > are submitted via the site will be given priority
                                        > for getting approved and included in the official standings.
                                        >
                                        > Grand Archery Tournament “GAT” Format and Requirements
                                        > Any archery competition can be designated a
                                        > GAT. However, if the resulting standings are to
                                        > be calculated and posted to the official GAT
                                        > scores page, the following criteria must be met.
                                        >
                                        > A minimum of 20 hand bow and/or 6 crossbow
                                        > competitors must enter the GAT to assure the
                                        > presence of a range of skill levels among the
                                        > shooters. If too few competitors enter, the
                                        > scores for that division will not be valid and
                                        > will not be calculated and posted to the official
                                        > GAT scores page. The GAT is intended as an
                                        > advanced tournament and as such does not AT THIS
                                        > TIME offer a youth division. However, all
                                        > archers are welcome to compete regardless of age
                                        > and ability. What if you don’t have enough
                                        > people to hold a GAT in your area? 1) Train more
                                        > archers. 2) Invite skilled competitors from
                                        > surrounding kingdoms. 3) Design a competition
                                        > made up of shoots that can be reproduced and shot
                                        > at several events in several locations. So long
                                        > as the locations provide similar conditions, the
                                        > standings can be accurately calculated. As an
                                        > example, if there are only 6 crossbow shooters in
                                        > your entire kingdom, devise a tournament that can
                                        > be set up at two or three events that all six
                                        > crossbow shooters can attend. This could simply
                                        > consist of a Royal Round or a RR and one or more
                                        > novelty shoots. Announce on your kingdom
                                        > calendar that a GAT will be shot at the X, Y, and
                                        > Z events. Once the shoots are complete, submit
                                        > the individual RR scores to your kingdom
                                        > scorekeeper, and submit the combined RR and any
                                        > novelty shoot scores to the Keeper Of The
                                        > GAT. Of the 6 scores submitted, the top 2 or 3
                                        > shooters will have their standings posted to the GAT scores page.
                                        >
                                        > To be official, the competition must be shot at
                                        > an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in
                                        > which it will be held. Unlike Royal Round and
                                        > IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or
                                        > unofficial gatherings even if enough participants
                                        > are present. This rule has been added to assure
                                        > the maximum number of participants the
                                        > opportunity to compete. So long as you can get
                                        > enough people to compete to meet the minimum
                                        > number requirements, your kingdom can host as
                                        > many GATs per year as you wish. Ideally a large
                                        > kingdom ought to host multiple GATs far enough
                                        > apart to allow everyone a chance to submit a score.
                                        > Equipment that is allowed in your kingdom
                                        > according to your archery rules may be used in a
                                        > GAT. Each GAT consists of two Divisions: Open
                                        > Handbow, including period and modern equipment,
                                        > and Open Crossbow, also including period and
                                        > modern equipment. Any shoot with a numeric score can be included in a GAT.
                                        >
                                        > Certain basic information must be recorded and
                                        > provided to the scorekeeper. This information
                                        > must include The date or dates of the shoot, the
                                        > place or places where the shoot was held,
                                        > consisting of kingdom and group, the names of the
                                        > participants, their home groups, their home
                                        > kingdoms, their division (bow type), and their
                                        > numeric score. Ties do not present a
                                        > problem. If a participant was unable to complete
                                        > the shoot for some reason, the partial score will
                                        > be provided. If no partial score is provided, a
                                        > score of zero will be assigned. Only the top 50%
                                        > of submitted scores will be calculated and posted
                                        > to the GAT standings page. So non-completion of
                                        > a GAT due to illness or an equipment failure will
                                        > not adversely affect an individuals posted standing.
                                        >
                                        > To ease and assist submitting the scores, a
                                        > scores entry page has been created. Data may be
                                        > entered in any order. The resulting standings
                                        > will be posted to the official page within two weeks.


                                      • Siegfried
                                        Allow me to clarify - as my words may have been confusing since this is a any shoot can qualify thing. Primarily I meant the nature that this is still
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 5, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Allow me to clarify - as my words may have been confusing since this is a "any shoot can qualify" thing. 

                                          Primarily I meant the nature that this is still standardized in the nature of "create a shoot that can be run at 2-3 events" - Which encourages identical shoots at events, vs unique ones that are encouraged in our area. 

                                          As people are not typically excited to drive 3hrs just to shoot the same thing they did last weekend. 

                                          :-)

                                          Siegfried


                                          On Jan 5, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Siegfried <siegfried@...> wrote:

                                          Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia) that have prided themselves at havin unique interesting shoots at events. And keeping "stock" shoots (RR, IKAC, Winter) primarily at practices.

                                          Siegfried


                                          On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:

                                          One question:

                                          "To be official, the competition must be shot at an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it will be held.  Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or unofficial gatherings even if enough participants are present.  This rule has been added to assure the maximum number of participants the opportunity to compete."

                                          Huh? This would actually reduce the number of possible competitors. We have a number of archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't get me wrong, I support having "At events only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.

                                          William Arwemakere

                                          On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette <pickette@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          Dear Gladius -
                                          This is a great help to those who wish GOA and related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?

                                          JoO
                                          Calontir



                                          ---- James Koch alchem@...> wrote:
                                          > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                          > >
                                          > From time to time over the years a discussion
                                          > starts on this forum regarding the creation of a
                                          > new type of tournament to augment the Royal
                                          > Round, IKAC & etc... Many people do not believe
                                          > that the existing standardized competitions give
                                          > a well rounded view of the skill of many
                                          > archers. Some people expressed the need for a
                                          > way of recording and comparing the standings of
                                          > competitors in large tournament shot at SCA
                                          > events. More recently we had the discussion
                                          > pertaining to finding and recognizing the top
                                          > archers in the SCA. This was engendered by the
                                          > news that the BOD was considering the possibility
                                          > of new martial Peerages in addition to
                                          > Knighthoods for armored combatants. The idea was
                                          > suggested that we need something in the archery
                                          > community similar to the crown tournaments of the armored combatants.
                                          > A number of us realized that the task of
                                          > designing such a tournament could not be
                                          > accomplished in a large public forum. We
                                          > therefore formed a small group to hash out how
                                          > such a non standardized tournament could be run,
                                          > scored, what rules would be required, and how the
                                          > scores could be tabulated, recorded, and displayed.
                                          > Late last Summer a Grand Archery Tournament was
                                          > held in the Middle Kingdom according to these
                                          > rules as a test. As a result of the test
                                          > tournament, the rules were modified and
                                          > improved. Additionally a spread sheet was
                                          > created to automatically calculate the percentile
                                          > rankings once the raw scores were entered.
                                          > We believe the proposed rules are now ready for
                                          > public comment prior to creating the scores
                                          > page. These follow. We welcome your feedback.
                                          > >
                                          > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > Welcome to the Grand Archery Tournament Official
                                          > page! The Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for
                                          > short, is a system that allows all the archers in
                                          > the Knowne World to compete in local tournaments
                                          > and compare their performance to archers
                                          > elsewhere in the SCA. Many archers shoot Royal
                                          > Rounds, IKACs, and similar standardized
                                          > competitions where the target type, ranges, and
                                          > number of ends are the same whenever shot. A
                                          > means needed to be devised to record scores and
                                          > compare archer’s resulting standings in
                                          > non-standardized tournaments as shot at most
                                          > large events where archery is included. The GAT
                                          > is an attempt to address this need.
                                          >
                                          > The intent of the GAT is therefore to allow
                                          > scores obtained during non-standardized shoots to
                                          > be recorded, and competitor’s final standings to
                                          > be calculated based on their performance relative
                                          > to the other shooters. For the sake of fairness
                                          > at this time the GAT is divided into only two
                                          > simple divisions, one for hand bows, and one for
                                          > crossbows. A Grand Archery Tournament consists
                                          > of one or many shoots, each with a numeric
                                          > score. Once the shoots have been completed, all
                                          > of the participant’s scores are submitted to the
                                          > Keeper Of The GAT who will calculate the
                                          > resulting standing of each shooter relative to
                                          > the other competitors. The winner of the
                                          > tournament will be assigned a standing of 100,
                                          > while the others will have standings calculated
                                          > as a percentage of the winner’s score.
                                          >
                                          > The formula for calculating standings is as follows.
                                          > Standing = ((Score – Lowest-score) / (Highest-score – Lowest-score)) * 100
                                          > In a GAT where eight crossbow shooters turned in
                                          > numeric scores of 33, 29, 20, 20, 19, 13, 12, and
                                          > 8, the resulting standings would be 100, 84, 48, 48, 44, 20, 16, and 0.
                                          >
                                          > The participant’s “name”, “kingdom”, “division”
                                          > (bow type), “total GATs entered”, “sum of all
                                          > standings”, “tournament place and date, and
                                          > standing” are then recorded. A record is posted
                                          > to the GAT scores page. Only participants who
                                          > have shot at least one tournament with a standing
                                          > of 50 or higher will have their record
                                          > automatically posted to the scores page. This
                                          > cut off is necessary due to space and other
                                          > limitations too numerous to list here. If you
                                          > have shot one or more GATS and none of your
                                          > standings have reached the 50% or above
                                          > threshold, you may contact the keeper of the
                                          > scores and request that a record be displayed
                                          > showing your standings down to whatever limit you
                                          > deem necessary, and your record will be added to the GAT standings page.
                                          >
                                          > In the above example where eight crossbow
                                          > shooters participated, only the individuals who
                                          > earned standings of 100 and 84 would have records
                                          > automatically added to the scores page, if they
                                          > did not already have a previous record
                                          > posted. If one of the shooters with a score of
                                          > 48 already had one earlier GAT tournament posted,
                                          > with a standing of 60, his “total GATs entered”
                                          > would be increased to 2 and his “sum of all
                                          > standings” would total 60 + 48 = 108.
                                          >
                                          > If you have any questions, comments, or
                                          > criticisms, do not hesitate to write to me Joe The Scorekeeper.
                                          >
                                          > Marshal Accounts
                                          > If you are a marshal, have not already gotten an
                                          > account, and would be willing to submit your
                                          > scores via the site, please send me an email with
                                          > "Account Request" as the subject. The email must
                                          > include your Mundane name, Scadian Name, Home
                                          > Kingdom/Group, and Email address. Scores which
                                          > are submitted via the site will be given priority
                                          > for getting approved and included in the official standings.
                                          >
                                          > Grand Archery Tournament “GAT” Format and Requirements
                                          > Any archery competition can be designated a
                                          > GAT. However, if the resulting standings are to
                                          > be calculated and posted to the official GAT
                                          > scores page, the following criteria must be met.
                                          >
                                          > A minimum of 20 hand bow and/or 6 crossbow
                                          > competitors must enter the GAT to assure the
                                          > presence of a range of skill levels among the
                                          > shooters. If too few competitors enter, the
                                          > scores for that division will not be valid and
                                          > will not be calculated and posted to the official
                                          > GAT scores page. The GAT is intended as an
                                          > advanced tournament and as such does not AT THIS
                                          > TIME offer a youth division. However, all
                                          > archers are welcome to compete regardless of age
                                          > and ability. What if you don’t have enough
                                          > people to hold a GAT in your area? 1) Train more
                                          > archers. 2) Invite skilled competitors from
                                          > surrounding kingdoms. 3) Design a competition
                                          > made up of shoots that can be reproduced and shot
                                          > at several events in several locations. So long
                                          > as the locations provide similar conditions, the
                                          > standings can be accurately calculated. As an
                                          > example, if there are only 6 crossbow shooters in
                                          > your entire kingdom, devise a tournament that can
                                          > be set up at two or three events that all six
                                          > crossbow shooters can attend. This could simply
                                          > consist of a Royal Round or a RR and one or more
                                          > novelty shoots. Announce on your kingdom
                                          > calendar that a GAT will be shot at the X, Y, and
                                          > Z events. Once the shoots are complete, submit
                                          > the individual RR scores to your kingdom
                                          > scorekeeper, and submit the combined RR and any
                                          > novelty shoot scores to the Keeper Of The
                                          > GAT. Of the 6 scores submitted, the top 2 or 3
                                          > shooters will have their standings posted to the GAT scores page.
                                          >
                                          > To be official, the competition must be shot at
                                          > an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in
                                          > which it will be held. Unlike Royal Round and
                                          > IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or
                                          > unofficial gatherings even if enough participants
                                          > are present. This rule has been added to assure
                                          > the maximum number of participants the
                                          > opportunity to compete. So long as you can get
                                          > enough people to compete to meet the minimum
                                          > number requirements, your kingdom can host as
                                          > many GATs per year as you wish. Ideally a large
                                          > kingdom ought to host multiple GATs far enough
                                          > apart to allow everyone a chance to submit a score.
                                          > Equipment that is allowed in your kingdom
                                          > according to your archery rules may be used in a
                                          > GAT. Each GAT consists of two Divisions: Open
                                          > Handbow, including period and modern equipment,
                                          > and Open Crossbow, also including period and
                                          > modern equipment. Any shoot with a numeric score can be included in a GAT.
                                          >
                                          > Certain basic information must be recorded and
                                          > provided to the scorekeeper. This information
                                          > must include The date or dates of the shoot, the
                                          > place or places where the shoot was held,
                                          > consisting of kingdom and group, the names of the
                                          > participants, their home groups, their home
                                          > kingdoms, their division (bow type), and their
                                          > numeric score. Ties do not present a
                                          > problem. If a participant was unable to complete
                                          > the shoot for some reason, the partial score will
                                          > be provided. If no partial score is provided, a
                                          > score of zero will be assigned. Only the top 50%
                                          > of submitted scores will be calculated and posted
                                          > to the GAT standings page. So non-completion of
                                          > a GAT due to illness or an equipment failure will
                                          > not adversely affect an individuals posted standing.
                                          >
                                          > To ease and assist submitting the scores, a
                                          > scores entry page has been created. Data may be
                                          > entered in any order. The resulting standings
                                          > will be posted to the official page within two weeks.


                                        • Jonathas
                                          Siegfried, That was added so that in locations that do not draw many archers it would be possible to hold the same shoot at several events such that the
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 5, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment

                                            Siegfried,

                                            That was added so that in locations that do not draw many archers it would be possible to hold the same shoot at several events such that the combined total of archers would be enough.  We are lucky in Atlantia that the vast majority of our archery events have enough archers to qualify.

                                            Jonathas

                                            On Jan 5, 2013 9:12 AM, "Siegfried" <siegfried@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            Allow me to clarify - as my words may have been confusing since this is a "any shoot can qualify" thing. 

                                            Primarily I meant the nature that this is still standardized in the nature of "create a shoot that can be run at 2-3 events" - Which encourages identical shoots at events, vs unique ones that are encouraged in our area. 

                                            As people are not typically excited to drive 3hrs just to shoot the same thing they did last weekend. 

                                            :-)

                                            Siegfried


                                            On Jan 5, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Siegfried <siegfried@...> wrote:

                                            Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia) that have prided themselves at havin unique interesting shoots at events. And keeping "stock" shoots (RR, IKAC, Winter) primarily at practices.

                                            Siegfried


                                            On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:

                                            One question:

                                            "To be official, the competition must be shot at an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it will be held.  Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or unofficial gatherings even if enough participants are present.  This rule has been added to assure the maximum number of participants the opportunity to compete."

                                            Huh? This would actually reduce the number of possible competitors. We have a number of archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't get me wrong, I support having "At events only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.

                                            William Arwemakere

                                            On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette <pickette@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            Dear Gladius -
                                            This is a great help to those who wish GOA and related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?

                                            JoO
                                            Calontir



                                            ---- James Koch alchem@...> wrote:
                                            > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                            > >
                                            > From time to time over the years a discussion
                                            > starts on this forum regarding the creation of a
                                            > new type of tournament to augment the Royal
                                            > Round, IKAC & etc... Many people do not believe
                                            > that the existing standardized competitions give
                                            > a well rounded view of the skill of many
                                            > archers. Some people expressed the need for a
                                            > way of recording and comparing the standings of
                                            > competitors in large tournament shot at SCA
                                            > events. More recently we had the discussion
                                            > pertaining to finding and recognizing the top
                                            > archers in the SCA. This was engendered by the
                                            > news that the BOD was considering the possibility
                                            > of new martial Peerages in addition to
                                            > Knighthoods for armored combatants. The idea was
                                            > suggested that we need something in the archery
                                            > community similar to the crown tournaments of the armored combatants.
                                            > A number of us realized that the task of
                                            > designing such a tournament could not be
                                            > accomplished in a large public forum. We
                                            > therefore formed a small group to hash out how
                                            > such a non standardized tournament could be run,
                                            > scored, what rules would be required, and how the
                                            > scores could be tabulated, recorded, and displayed.
                                            > Late last Summer a Grand Archery Tournament was
                                            > held in the Middle Kingdom according to these
                                            > rules as a test. As a result of the test
                                            > tournament, the rules were modified and
                                            > improved. Additionally a spread sheet was
                                            > created to automatically calculate the percentile
                                            > rankings once the raw scores were entered.
                                            > We believe the proposed rules are now ready for
                                            > public comment prior to creating the scores
                                            > page. These follow. We welcome your feedback.
                                            > >
                                            > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > Welcome to the Grand Archery Tournament Official
                                            > page! The Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for
                                            > short, is a system that allows all the archers in
                                            > the Knowne World to compete in local tournaments
                                            > and compare their performance to archers
                                            > elsewhere in the SCA. Many archers shoot Royal
                                            > Rounds, IKACs, and similar standardized
                                            > competitions where the target type, ranges, and
                                            > number of ends are the same whenever shot. A
                                            > means needed to be devised to record scores and
                                            > compare archer’s resulting standings in
                                            > non-standardized tournaments as shot at most
                                            > large events where archery is included. The GAT
                                            > is an attempt to address this need.
                                            >
                                            > The intent of the GAT is therefore to allow
                                            > scores obtained during non-standardized shoots to
                                            > be recorded, and competitor’s final standings to
                                            > be calculated based on their performance relative
                                            > to the other shooters. For the sake of fairness
                                            > at this time the GAT is divided into only two
                                            > simple divisions, one for hand bows, and one for
                                            > crossbows. A Grand Archery Tournament consists
                                            > of one or many shoots, each with a numeric
                                            > score. Once the shoots have been completed, all
                                            > of the participant’s scores are submitted to the
                                            > Keeper Of The GAT who will calculate the
                                            > resulting standing of each shooter relative to
                                            > the other competitors. The winner of the
                                            > tournament will be assigned a standing of 100,
                                            > while the others will have standings calculated
                                            > as a percentage of the winner’s score.
                                            >
                                            > The formula for calculating standings is as follows.
                                            > Standing = ((Score – Lowest-score) / (Highest-score – Lowest-score)) * 100
                                            > In a GAT where eight crossbow shooters turned in
                                            > numeric scores of 33, 29, 20, 20, 19, 13, 12, and
                                            > 8, the resulting standings would be 100, 84, 48, 48, 44, 20, 16, and 0.
                                            >
                                            > The participant’s “name”, “kingdom”, “division”
                                            > (bow type), “total GATs entered”, “sum of all
                                            > standings”, “tournament place and date, and
                                            > standing” are then recorded. A record is posted
                                            > to the GAT scores page. Only participants who
                                            > have shot at least one tournament with a standing
                                            > of 50 or higher will have their record
                                            > automatically posted to the scores page. This
                                            > cut off is necessary due to space and other
                                            > limitations too numerous to list here. If you
                                            > have shot one or more GATS and none of your
                                            > standings have reached the 50% or above
                                            > threshold, you may contact the keeper of the
                                            > scores and request that a record be displayed
                                            > showing your standings down to whatever limit you
                                            > deem necessary, and your record will be added to the GAT standings page.
                                            >
                                            > In the above example where eight crossbow
                                            > shooters participated, only the individuals who
                                            > earned standings of 100 and 84 would have records
                                            > automatically added to the scores page, if they
                                            > did not already have a previous record
                                            > posted. If one of the shooters with a score of
                                            > 48 already had one earlier GAT tournament posted,
                                            > with a standing of 60, his “total GATs entered”
                                            > would be increased to 2 and his “sum of all
                                            > standings” would total 60 + 48 = 108.
                                            >
                                            > If you have any questions, comments, or
                                            > criticisms, do not hesitate to write to me Joe The Scorekeeper.
                                            >
                                            > Marshal Accounts
                                            > If you are a marshal, have not already gotten an
                                            > account, and would be willing to submit your
                                            > scores via the site, please send me an email with
                                            > "Account Request" as the subject. The email must
                                            > include your Mundane name, Scadian Name, Home
                                            > Kingdom/Group, and Email address. Scores which
                                            > are submitted via the site will be given priority
                                            > for getting approved and included in the official standings.
                                            >
                                            > Grand Archery Tournament “GAT” Format and Requirements
                                            > Any archery competition can be designated a
                                            > GAT. However, if the resulting standings are to
                                            > be calculated and posted to the official GAT
                                            > scores page, the following criteria must be met.
                                            >
                                            > A minimum of 20 hand bow and/or 6 crossbow
                                            > competitors must enter the GAT to assure the
                                            > presence of a range of skill levels among the
                                            > shooters. If too few competitors enter, the
                                            > scores for that division will not be valid and
                                            > will not be calculated and posted to the official
                                            > GAT scores page. The GAT is intended as an
                                            > advanced tournament and as such does not AT THIS
                                            > TIME offer a youth division. However, all
                                            > archers are welcome to compete regardless of age
                                            > and ability. What if you don’t have enough
                                            > people to hold a GAT in your area? 1) Train more
                                            > archers. 2) Invite skilled competitors from
                                            > surrounding kingdoms. 3) Design a competition
                                            > made up of shoots that can be reproduced and shot
                                            > at several events in several locations. So long
                                            > as the locations provide similar conditions, the
                                            > standings can be accurately calculated. As an
                                            > example, if there are only 6 crossbow shooters in
                                            > your entire kingdom, devise a tournament that can
                                            > be set up at two or three events that all six
                                            > crossbow shooters can attend. This could simply
                                            > consist of a Royal Round or a RR and one or more
                                            > novelty shoots. Announce on your kingdom
                                            > calendar that a GAT will be shot at the X, Y, and
                                            > Z events. Once the shoots are complete, submit
                                            > the individual RR scores to your kingdom
                                            > scorekeeper, and submit the combined RR and any
                                            > novelty shoot scores to the Keeper Of The
                                            > GAT. Of the 6 scores submitted, the top 2 or 3
                                            > shooters will have their standings posted to the GAT scores page.
                                            >
                                            > To be official, the competition must be shot at
                                            > an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in
                                            > which it will be held. Unlike Royal Round and
                                            > IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or
                                            > unofficial gatherings even if enough participants
                                            > are present. This rule has been added to assure
                                            > the maximum number of participants the
                                            > opportunity to compete. So long as you can get
                                            > enough people to compete to meet the minimum
                                            > number requirements, your kingdom can host as
                                            > many GATs per year as you wish. Ideally a large
                                            > kingdom ought to host multiple GATs far enough
                                            > apart to allow everyone a chance to submit a score.
                                            > Equipment that is allowed in your kingdom
                                            > according to your archery rules may be used in a
                                            > GAT. Each GAT consists of two Divisions: Open
                                            > Handbow, including period and modern equipment,
                                            > and Open Crossbow, also including period and
                                            > modern equipment. Any shoot with a numeric score can be included in a GAT.
                                            >
                                            > Certain basic information must be recorded and
                                            > provided to the scorekeeper. This information
                                            > must include The date or dates of the shoot, the
                                            > place or places where the shoot was held,
                                            > consisting of kingdom and group, the names of the
                                            > participants, their home groups, their home
                                            > kingdoms, their division (bow type), and their
                                            > numeric score. Ties do not present a
                                            > problem. If a participant was unable to complete
                                            > the shoot for some reason, the partial score will
                                            > be provided. If no partial score is provided, a
                                            > score of zero will be assigned. Only the top 50%
                                            > of submitted scores will be calculated and posted
                                            > to the GAT standings page. So non-completion of
                                            > a GAT due to illness or an equipment failure will
                                            > not adversely affect an individuals posted standing.
                                            >
                                            > To ease and assist submitting the scores, a
                                            > scores entry page has been created. Data may be
                                            > entered in any order. The resulting standings
                                            > will be posted to the official page within two weeks.


                                          • James Koch
                                            William, ... I tend to agree with you. In my opinion, any time you can get the requisite minimum number of archers together, you ought to be able to submit
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 5, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              William, 
                                              >
                                              I tend to agree with you.  In my opinion, any time you can get the requisite minimum number of archers together, you ought to be able to submit the resulting scores.  However, when we argued this last year on this very forum several people insisted that they wanted the requirement that the GATs appear on the kingdon calendars so that everyone would be aware when and where they would be held.  If you think about it, this makes sense.  We already have RRs and IKACs to shoot at small weekly practices.  GATs are intended to serve as a means for recording results of archery competitions shot at large events. 
                                              >
                                              Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >  At 10:18 PM 1/4/2013, you wrote:
                                               

                                              One question:

                                              "To be official, the competition must be shot at an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it will be held.  Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or unofficial gatherings even if enough participants are present.  This rule has been added to assure the maximum number of participants the opportunity to compete."

                                              Huh? This would actually reduce the number of possible competitors. We have a number of archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't get me wrong, I support having "At events only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.

                                              William Arwemakere

                                              On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette <pickette@... > wrote:
                                               

                                              Dear Gladius -
                                              This is a great help to those who wish GOA and related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?

                                              JoO
                                              Calontir


                                              ---- James Koch alchem@...> wrote:
                                              > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                              > >
                                              > From time to time over the years a discussion
                                              > starts on this forum regarding the creation of a
                                              > new type of tournament to augment the Royal
                                              > Round, IKAC & etc... Many people do not believe
                                              > that the existing standardized competitions give
                                              > a well rounded view of the skill of many
                                              > archers. Some people expressed the need for a
                                              > way of recording and comparing the standings of
                                              > competitors in large tournament shot at SCA
                                              > events. More recently we had the discussion
                                              > pertaining to finding and recognizing the top
                                              > archers in the SCA. This was engendered by the
                                              > news that the BOD was considering the possibility
                                              > of new martial Peerages in addition to
                                              > Knighthoods for armored combatants. The idea was
                                              > suggested that we need something in the archery
                                              > community similar to the crown tournaments of the armored combatants.
                                              > A number of us realized that the task of
                                              > designing such a tournament could not be
                                              > accomplished in a large public forum. We
                                              > therefore formed a small group to hash out how
                                              > such a non standardized tournament could be run,
                                              > scored, what rules would be required, and how the
                                              > scores could be tabulated, recorded, and displayed.
                                              > Late last Summer a Grand Archery Tournament was
                                              > held in the Middle Kingdom according to these
                                              > rules as a test. As a result of the test
                                              > tournament, the rules were modified and
                                              > improved. Additionally a spread sheet was
                                              > created to automatically calculate the percentile
                                              > rankings once the raw scores were entered.
                                              > We believe the proposed rules are now ready for
                                              > public comment prior to creating the scores
                                              > page. These follow. We welcome your feedback.
                                              > >
                                              > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > Welcome to the Grand Archery Tournament Official
                                              > page! The Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for
                                              > short, is a system that allows all the archers in
                                              > the Knowne World to compete in local tournaments
                                              > and compare their performance to archers
                                              > elsewhere in the SCA. Many archers shoot Royal
                                              > Rounds, IKACs, and similar standardized
                                              > competitions where the target type, ranges, and
                                              > number of ends are the same whenever shot. A
                                              > means needed to be devised to record scores and
                                              > compare archer’s resulting standings in
                                              > non-standardized tournaments as shot at most
                                              > large events where archery is included. The GAT
                                              > is an attempt to address this need.
                                              >
                                              > The intent of the GAT is therefore to allow
                                              > scores obtained during non-standardized shoots to
                                              > be recorded, and competitor’s final standings to
                                              > be calculated based on their performance relative
                                              > to the other shooters. For the sake of fairness
                                              > at this time the GAT is divided into only two
                                              > simple divisions, one for hand bows, and one for
                                              > crossbows. A Grand Archery Tournament consists
                                              > of one or many shoots, each with a numeric
                                              > score. Once the shoots have been completed, all
                                              > of the participant’s scores are submitted to the
                                              > Keeper Of The GAT who will calculate the
                                              > resulting standing of each shooter relative to
                                              > the other competitors. The winner of the
                                              > tournament will be assigned a standing of 100,
                                              > while the others will have standings calculated
                                              > as a percentage of the winner’s score.
                                              >
                                              > The formula for calculating standings is as follows.
                                              > Standing = ((Score – Lowest-score) / (Highest-score – Lowest-score)) * 100
                                              > In a GAT where eight crossbow shooters turned in
                                              > numeric scores of 33, 29, 20, 20, 19, 13, 12, and
                                              > 8, the resulting standings would be 100, 84, 48, 48, 44, 20, 16, and 0.
                                              >
                                              > The participant’s “name”, “kingdom”, “division”
                                              > (bow type), “total GATs entered”, “sum of all
                                              > standings”, “tournament place and date, and
                                              > standing” are then recorded. A record is posted
                                              > to the GAT scores page. Only participants who
                                              > have shot at least one tournament with a standing
                                              > of 50 or higher will have their record
                                              > automatically posted to the scores page. This
                                              > cut off is necessary due to space and other
                                              > limitations too numerous to list here. If you
                                              > have shot one or more GATS and none of your
                                              > standings have reached the 50% or above
                                              > threshold, you may contact the keeper of the
                                              > scores and request that a record be displayed
                                              > showing your standings down to whatever limit you
                                              > deem necessary, and your record will be added to the GAT standings page.
                                              >
                                              > In the above example where eight crossbow
                                              > shooters participated, only the individuals who
                                              > earned standings of 100 and 84 would have records
                                              > automatically added to the scores page, if they
                                              > did not already have a previous record
                                              > posted. If one of the shooters with a score of
                                              > 48 already had one earlier GAT tournament posted,
                                              > with a standing of 60, his “total GATs entered”
                                              > would be increased to 2 and his “sum of all
                                              > standings” would total 60 + 48 = 108.
                                              >
                                              > If you have any questions, comments, or
                                              > criticisms, do not hesitate to write to me Joe The Scorekeeper.
                                              >
                                              > Marshal Accounts
                                              > If you are a marshal, have not already gotten an
                                              > account, and would be willing to submit your
                                              > scores via the site, please send me an email with
                                              > "Account Request" as the subject. The email must
                                              > include your Mundane name, Scadian Name, Home
                                              > Kingdom/Group, and Email address. Scores which
                                              > are submitted via the site will be given priority
                                              > for getting approved and included in the official standings.
                                              >
                                              > Grand Archery Tournament “GAT” Format and Requirements
                                              > Any archery competition can be designated a
                                              > GAT. However, if the resulting standings are to
                                              > be calculated and posted to the official GAT
                                              > scores page, the following criteria must be met.
                                              >
                                              > A minimum of 20 hand bow and/or 6 crossbow
                                              > competitors must enter the GAT to assure the
                                              > presence of a range of skill levels among the
                                              > shooters. If too few competitors enter, the
                                              > scores for that division will not be valid and
                                              > will not be calculated and posted to the official
                                              > GAT scores page. The GAT is intended as an
                                              > advanced tournament and as such does not AT THIS
                                              > TIME offer a youth division. However, all
                                              > archers are welcome to compete regardless of age
                                              > and ability. What if you don’t have enough
                                              > people to hold a GAT in your area? 1) Train more
                                              > archers. 2) Invite skilled competitors from
                                              > surrounding kingdoms. 3) Design a competition
                                              > made up of shoots that can be reproduced and shot
                                              > at several events in several locations. So long
                                              > as the locations provide similar conditions, the
                                              > standings can be accurately calculated. As an
                                              > example, if there are only 6 crossbow shooters in
                                              > your entire kingdom, devise a tournament that can
                                              > be set up at two or three events that all six
                                              > crossbow shooters can attend. This could simply
                                              > consist of a Royal Round or a RR and one or more
                                              > novelty shoots. Announce on your kingdom
                                              > calendar that a GAT will be shot at the X, Y, and
                                              > Z events. Once the shoots are complete, submit
                                              > the individual RR scores to your kingdom
                                              > scorekeeper, and submit the combined RR and any
                                              > novelty shoot scores to the Keeper Of The
                                              > GAT. Of the 6 scores submitted, the top 2 or 3
                                              > shooters will have their standings posted to the GAT scores page.
                                              >
                                              > To be official, the competition must be shot at
                                              > an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in
                                              > which it will be held. Unlike Royal Round and
                                              > IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or
                                              > unofficial gatherings even if enough participants
                                              > are present. This rule has been added to assure
                                              > the maximum number of participants the
                                              > opportunity to compete. So long as you can get
                                              > enough people to compete to meet the minimum
                                              > number requirements, your kingdom can host as
                                              > many GATs per year as you wish. Ideally a large
                                              > kingdom ought to host multiple GATs far enough
                                              > apart to allow everyone a chance to submit a score.
                                              > Equipment that is allowed in your kingdom
                                              > according to your archery rules may be used in a
                                              > GAT. Each GAT consists of two Divisions: Open
                                              > Handbow, including period and modern equipment,
                                              > and Open Crossbow, also including period and
                                              > modern equipment. Any shoot with a numeric score can be included in a GAT.
                                              >
                                              > Certain basic information must be recorded and
                                              > provided to the scorekeeper. This information
                                              > must include The date or dates of the shoot, the
                                              > place or places where the shoot was held,
                                              > consisting of kingdom and group, the names of the
                                              > participants, their home groups, their home
                                              > kingdoms, their division (bow type), and their
                                              > numeric score. Ties do not present a
                                              > problem. If a participant was unable to complete
                                              > the shoot for some reason, the partial score will
                                              > be provided. If no partial score is provided, a
                                              > score of zero will be assigned. Only the top 50%
                                              > of submitted scores will be calculated and posted
                                              > to the GAT standings page. So non-completion of
                                              > a GAT due to illness or an equipment failure will
                                              > not adversely affect an individuals posted standing.
                                              >
                                              > To ease and assist submitting the scores, a
                                              > scores entry page has been created. Data may be
                                              > entered in any order. The resulting standings
                                              > will be posted to the official page within two weeks.


                                            • James Koch
                                              Siegfried, ... Jonathas is 100% correct. He neglected to add that people would not have to drive 3 hours to shoot the same thing they shot last weekend.
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 5, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Siegfried,
                                                >
                                                Jonathas is 100% correct.  He neglected to add that people would not have to drive 3 hours to shoot the same thing they shot last weekend.  Their score would already be on record. 
                                                >
                                                There is something I neglected to mention when I first posted this.  What I posted are not just the rules.  In addition to the rules are notes as to why each rule is thought to be necessary along with examples of what the rule allows.  Once the web site is created, you will see only the actual rules.  For notes, explanations, and examples there will be hyperlinks to a FAQ page.
                                                >
                                                Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > At 12:31 PM 1/5/2013, you wrote:
                                                 

                                                Siegfried,

                                                That was added so that in locations that do not draw many archers it would be possible to hold the same shoot at several events such that the combined total of archers would be enough.  We are lucky in Atlantia that the vast majority of our archery events have enough archers to qualify.

                                                Jonathas
                                                On Jan 5, 2013 9:12 AM, "Siegfried" <siegfried@... > wrote:
                                                 

                                                Allow me to clarify - as my words may have been confusing since this is a "any shoot can qualify" thing.

                                                Primarily I meant the nature that this is still standardized in the nature of "create a shoot that can be run at 2-3 events" - Which encourages identical shoots at events, vs unique ones that are encouraged in our area.

                                                As people are not typically excited to drive 3hrs just to shoot the same thing they did last weekend.

                                                :-)

                                                Siegfried


                                                On Jan 5, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Siegfried <siegfried@... > wrote:

                                                Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia) that have prided themselves at havin unique interesting shoots at events. And keeping "stock" shoots (RR, IKAC, Winter) primarily at practices.

                                                Siegfried


                                                On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:

                                                One question:

                                                "To be official, the competition must be shot at an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it will be held.  Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or unofficial gatherings even if enough participants are present.  This rule has been added to assure the maximum number of participants the opportunity to compete."

                                                Huh? This would actually reduce the number of possible competitors. We have a number of archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't get me wrong, I support having "At events only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.

                                                William Arwemakere

                                                On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette <pickette@... > wrote:
                                                 

                                                Dear Gladius -
                                                This is a great help to those who wish GOA and related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?

                                                JoO
                                                Calontir


                                                ---- James Koch alchem@...> wrote:
                                                > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                                > >
                                                > From time to time over the years a discussion
                                                > starts on this forum regarding the creation of a
                                                > new type of tournament to augment the Royal
                                                > Round, IKAC & etc... Many people do not believe
                                                > that the existing standardized competitions give
                                                > a well rounded view of the skill of many
                                                > archers. Some people expressed the need for a
                                                > way of recording and comparing the standings of
                                                > competitors in large tournament shot at SCA
                                                > events. More recently we had the discussion
                                                > pertaining to finding and recognizing the top
                                                > archers in the SCA. This was engendered by the
                                                > news that the BOD was considering the possibility
                                                > of new martial Peerages in addition to
                                                > Knighthoods for armored combatants. The idea was
                                                > suggested that we need something in the archery
                                                > community similar to the crown tournaments of the armored combatants.
                                                > A number of us realized that the task of
                                                > designing such a tournament could not be
                                                > accomplished in a large public forum. We
                                                > therefore formed a small group to hash out how
                                                > such a non standardized tournament could be run,
                                                > scored, what rules would be required, and how the
                                                > scores could be tabulated, recorded, and displayed.
                                                > Late last Summer a Grand Archery Tournament was
                                                > held in the Middle Kingdom according to these
                                                > rules as a test. As a result of the test
                                                > tournament, the rules were modified and
                                                > improved. Additionally a spread sheet was
                                                > created to automatically calculate the percentile
                                                > rankings once the raw scores were entered.
                                                > We believe the proposed rules are now ready for
                                                > public comment prior to creating the scores
                                                > page. These follow. We welcome your feedback.
                                                > >
                                                > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > Welcome to the Grand Archery Tournament Official
                                                > page! The Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for
                                                > short, is a system that allows all the archers in
                                                > the Knowne World to compete in local tournaments
                                                > and compare their performance to archers
                                                > elsewhere in the SCA. Many archers shoot Royal
                                                > Rounds, IKACs, and similar standardized
                                                > competitions where the target type, ranges, and
                                                > number of ends are the same whenever shot. A
                                                > means needed to be devised to record scores and
                                                > compare archer’s resulting standings in
                                                > non-standardized tournaments as shot at most
                                                > large events where archery is included. The GAT
                                                > is an attempt to address this need.
                                                >
                                                > The intent of the GAT is therefore to allow
                                                > scores obtained during non-standardized shoots to
                                                > be recorded, and competitor’s final standings to
                                                > be calculated based on their performance relative
                                                > to the other shooters. For the sake of fairness
                                                > at this time the GAT is divided into only two
                                                > simple divisions, one for hand bows, and one for
                                                > crossbows. A Grand Archery Tournament consists
                                                > of one or many shoots, each with a numeric
                                                > score. Once the shoots have been completed, all
                                                > of the participant’s scores are submitted to the
                                                > Keeper Of The GAT who will calculate the
                                                > resulting standing of each shooter relative to
                                                > the other competitors. The winner of the
                                                > tournament will be assigned a standing of 100,
                                                > while the others will have standings calculated
                                                > as a percentage of the winner’s score.
                                                >
                                                > The formula for calculating standings is as follows.
                                                > Standing = ((Score – Lowest-score) / (Highest-score – Lowest-score)) * 100
                                                > In a GAT where eight crossbow shooters turned in
                                                > numeric scores of 33, 29, 20, 20, 19, 13, 12, and
                                                > 8, the resulting standings would be 100, 84, 48, 48, 44, 20, 16, and 0.
                                                >
                                                > The participant’s “name”, “kingdom”, “division”
                                                > (bow type), “total GATs entered”, “sum of all
                                                > standings”, “tournament place and date, and
                                                > standing” are then recorded. A record is posted
                                                > to the GAT scores page. Only participants who
                                                > have shot at least one tournament with a standing
                                                > of 50 or higher will have their record
                                                > automatically posted to the scores page. This
                                                > cut off is necessary due to space and other
                                                > limitations too numerous to list here. If you
                                                > have shot one or more GATS and none of your
                                                > standings have reached the 50% or above
                                                > threshold, you may contact the keeper of the
                                                > scores and request that a record be displayed
                                                > showing your standings down to whatever limit you
                                                > deem necessary, and your record will be added to the GAT standings page.
                                                >
                                                > In the above example where eight crossbow
                                                > shooters participated, only the individuals who
                                                > earned standings of 100 and 84 would have records
                                                > automatically added to the scores page, if they
                                                > did not already have a previous record
                                                > posted. If one of the shooters with a score of
                                                > 48 already had one earlier GAT tournament posted,
                                                > with a standing of 60, his “total GATs entered”
                                                > would be increased to 2 and his “sum of all
                                                > standings” would total 60 + 48 = 108.
                                                >
                                                > If you have any questions, comments, or
                                                > criticisms, do not hesitate to write to me Joe The Scorekeeper.
                                                >
                                                > Marshal Accounts
                                                > If you are a marshal, have not already gotten an
                                                > account, and would be willing to submit your
                                                > scores via the site, please send me an email with
                                                > "Account Request" as the subject. The email must
                                                > include your Mundane name, Scadian Name, Home
                                                > Kingdom/Group, and Email address. Scores which
                                                > are submitted via the site will be given priority
                                                > for getting approved and included in the official standings.
                                                >
                                                > Grand Archery Tournament “GAT” Format and Requirements
                                                > Any archery competition can be designated a
                                                > GAT. However, if the resulting standings are to
                                                > be calculated and posted to the official GAT
                                                > scores page, the following criteria must be met.
                                                >
                                                > A minimum of 20 hand bow and/or 6 crossbow
                                                > competitors must enter the GAT to assure the
                                                > presence of a range of skill levels among the
                                                > shooters. If too few competitors enter, the
                                                > scores for that division will not be valid and
                                                > will not be calculated and posted to the official
                                                > GAT scores page. The GAT is intended as an
                                                > advanced tournament and as such does not AT THIS
                                                > TIME offer a youth division. However, all
                                                > archers are welcome to compete regardless of age
                                                > and ability. What if you don’t have enough
                                                > people to hold a GAT in your area? 1) Train more
                                                > archers. 2) Invite skilled competitors from
                                                > surrounding kingdoms. 3) Design a competition
                                                > made up of shoots that can be reproduced and shot
                                                > at several events in several locations. So long
                                                > as the locations provide similar conditions, the
                                                > standings can be accurately calculated. As an
                                                > example, if there are only 6 crossbow shooters in
                                                > your entire kingdom, devise a tournament that can
                                                > be set up at two or three events that all six
                                                > crossbow shooters can attend. This could simply
                                                > consist of a Royal Round or a RR and one or more
                                                > novelty shoots. Announce on your kingdom
                                                > calendar that a GAT will be shot at the X, Y, and
                                                > Z events. Once the shoots are complete, submit
                                                > the individual RR scores to your kingdom
                                                > scorekeeper, and submit the combined RR and any
                                                > novelty shoot scores to the Keeper Of The
                                                > GAT. Of the 6 scores submitted, the top 2 or 3
                                                > shooters will have their standings posted to the GAT scores page.
                                                >
                                                > To be official, the competition must be shot at
                                                > an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in
                                                > which it will be held. Unlike Royal Round and
                                                > IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or
                                                > unofficial gatherings even if enough participants
                                                > are present. This rule has been added to assure
                                                > the maximum number of participants the
                                                > opportunity to compete. So long as you can get
                                                > enough people to compete to meet the minimum
                                                > number requirements, your kingdom can host as
                                                > many GATs per year as you wish. Ideally a large
                                                > kingdom ought to host multiple GATs far enough
                                                > apart to allow everyone a chance to submit a score.
                                                > Equipment that is allowed in your kingdom
                                                > according to your archery rules may be used in a
                                                > GAT. Each GAT consists of two Divisions: Open
                                                > Handbow, including period and modern equipment,
                                                > and Open Crossbow, also including period and
                                                > modern equipment. Any shoot with a numeric score can be included in a GAT.
                                                >
                                                > Certain basic information must be recorded and
                                                > provided to the scorekeeper. This information
                                                > must include The date or dates of the shoot, the
                                                > place or places where the shoot was held,
                                                > consisting of kingdom and group, the names of the
                                                > participants, their home groups, their home
                                                > kingdoms, their division (bow type), and their
                                                > numeric score. Ties do not present a
                                                > problem. If a participant was unable to complete
                                                > the shoot for some reason, the partial score will
                                                > be provided. If no partial score is provided, a
                                                > score of zero will be assigned. Only the top 50%
                                                > of submitted scores will be calculated and posted
                                                > to the GAT standings page. So non-completion of
                                                > a GAT due to illness or an equipment failure will
                                                > not adversely affect an individuals posted standing.
                                                >
                                                > To ease and assist submitting the scores, a
                                                > scores entry page has been created. Data may be
                                                > entered in any order. The resulting standings
                                                > will be posted to the official page within two weeks.

                                              • Des & Jan Howard
                                                Gladius Well, there you go. Lochac doesn t have a great number of large events. War is usually at large events. If there is war I m strictly a CA, because
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Gladius
                                                  Well, there you go.
                                                  Lochac doesn't have a great number of large events.
                                                  War is usually at large events. If there is war I'm
                                                  strictly a CA, because archery/war activities usually
                                                  overlap.
                                                  Our rural household shoots IKAC at our monthly
                                                  gatherings before fighter/war practice. Even the
                                                  heavies shoot target.
                                                  Ranif

                                                  On 6/01/2013 1:51 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                                  > We already have RRs and IKACs to shoot at
                                                  > small weekly practices. GATs are intended to serve as
                                                  > a means for recording results of archery competitions
                                                  > shot at large events.
                                                • edmund_penyngton
                                                  I love this idea, but I did have a question about the multiple events rule. My corner of Gleann Abhann is one such area where this rule would allow us to
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    I love this idea, but I did have a question about the "multiple events" rule. My corner of Gleann Abhann is one such area where this rule would allow us to participate where otherwise we could not, but what happens if/when a shooter attends the second event with the GAT qualifying shoots?

                                                    Do the shooter's first score(s) stand, or their best score(s)? Can they mix and match scores from the two events to form a "composite" of sorts?

                                                    I'm not advocating one way or another, I simply know that this is a question that will eventually come up, and we as marshals need to know.

                                                    -Edmund of Penyngton
                                                    Live Weapons Marshal, Gleann Abhann
                                                    Baronial Yeoman of Small Gray Bear

                                                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Siegfried,
                                                    > >
                                                    > Jonathas is 100% correct. He neglected to add
                                                    > that people would not have to drive 3 hours to
                                                    > shoot the same thing they shot last
                                                    > weekend. Their score would already be on record.
                                                    > >
                                                    > There is something I neglected to mention when I
                                                    > first posted this. What I posted are not just
                                                    > the rules. In addition to the rules are notes as
                                                    > to why each rule is thought to be necessary along
                                                    > with examples of what the rule allows. Once the
                                                    > web site is created, you will see only the actual
                                                    > rules. For notes, explanations, and examples
                                                    > there will be hyperlinks to a FAQ page.
                                                    > >
                                                    > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > At 12:31 PM 1/5/2013, you wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >Siegfried,
                                                    > >
                                                    > >That was added so that in locations that do not
                                                    > >draw many archers it would be possible to hold
                                                    > >the same shoot at several events such that the
                                                    > >combined total of archers would be enough. We
                                                    > >are lucky in Atlantia that the vast majority of
                                                    > >our archery events have enough archers to qualify.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >Jonathas
                                                    > >On Jan 5, 2013 9:12 AM, "Siegfried"
                                                    > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >Allow me to clarify - as my words may have been
                                                    > >confusing since this is a "any shoot can qualify" thing.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >Primarily I meant the nature that this is still
                                                    > >standardized in the nature of "create a shoot
                                                    > >that can be run at 2-3 events" - Which
                                                    > >encourages identical shoots at events, vs unique
                                                    > >ones that are encouraged in our area.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >As people are not typically excited to drive
                                                    > >3hrs just to shoot the same thing they did last weekend.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >:-)
                                                    > >
                                                    > >Siegfried
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >On Jan 5, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Siegfried
                                                    > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > >>Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot
                                                    > >>get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia)
                                                    > >>that have prided themselves at havin unique
                                                    > >>interesting shoots at events. And keeping
                                                    > >>"stock" shoots (RR, IKAC, Winter) primarily at practices.
                                                    > >>
                                                    > >>Siegfried
                                                    > >>
                                                    > >>
                                                    > >>On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Bill Tait
                                                    > >>< arwemakere@...> wrote:
                                                    > >>
                                                    > >>>One question:
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>>"To be official, the competition must be shot
                                                    > >>>at an event listed on the Calendar of the
                                                    > >>>kingdom in which it will be held. Unlike
                                                    > >>>Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be
                                                    > >>>shot at practices or unofficial gatherings
                                                    > >>>even if enough participants are present. This
                                                    > >>>rule has been added to assure the maximum
                                                    > >>>number of participants the opportunity to compete."
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>>Huh? This would actually reduce the number of
                                                    > >>>possible competitors. We have a number of
                                                    > >>>archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per
                                                    > >>>year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't
                                                    > >>>get me wrong, I support having "At events
                                                    > >>>only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>>William Arwemakere
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>>On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette
                                                    > >>>< pickette@...> wrote:
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>>Dear Gladius -
                                                    > >>>This is a great help to those who wish GOA and
                                                    > >>>related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>>JoO
                                                    > >>>Calontir
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>>
                                                  • Siegfried
                                                    Ahh. You miss my point Gladius. It s not that someone would actively seek out driving to shoot it again. It s that if multiple events are having the same
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Ahh. You miss my point Gladius. 

                                                      It's not that someone would actively seek out driving to shoot it again. 

                                                      It's that if multiple events are having the same shoot. Then archers as they go alo their normal event to event schedule ... Will find themselves at the same shoot again. 

                                                      (Which in turn could discourage event attendance.)

                                                      On Jan 5, 2013, at 10:09 PM, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:

                                                      Siegfried,
                                                      >
                                                      Jonathas is 100% correct.  He neglected to add that people would not have to drive 3 hours to shoot the same thing they shot last weekend.  Their score would already be on record. 
                                                      >
                                                      There is something I neglected to mention when I first posted this.  What I posted are not just the rules.  In addition to the rules are notes as to why each rule is thought to be necessary along with examples of what the rule allows.  Once the web site is created, you will see only the actual rules.  For notes, explanations, and examples there will be hyperlinks to a FAQ page.
                                                      >
                                                      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > At 12:31 PM 1/5/2013, you wrote:
                                                       

                                                      Siegfried,

                                                      That was added so that in locations that do not draw many archers it would be possible to hold the same shoot at several events such that the combined total of archers would be enough.  We are lucky in Atlantia that the vast majority of our archery events have enough archers to qualify.

                                                      Jonathas
                                                      On Jan 5, 2013 9:12 AM, "Siegfried" <siegfried@... > wrote:
                                                       

                                                      Allow me to clarify - as my words may have been confusing since this is a "any shoot can qualify" thing.

                                                      Primarily I meant the nature that this is still standardized in the nature of "create a shoot that can be run at 2-3 events" - Which encourages identical shoots at events, vs unique ones that are encouraged in our area.

                                                      As people are not typically excited to drive 3hrs just to shoot the same thing they did last weekend.

                                                      :-)

                                                      Siegfried


                                                      On Jan 5, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Siegfried <siegfried@... > wrote:

                                                      Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia) that have prided themselves at havin unique interesting shoots at events. And keeping "stock" shoots (RR, IKAC, Winter) primarily at practices.

                                                      Siegfried


                                                      On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:

                                                      One question:

                                                      "To be official, the competition must be shot at an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it will be held.  Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or unofficial gatherings even if enough participants are present.  This rule has been added to assure the maximum number of participants the opportunity to compete."

                                                      Huh? This would actually reduce the number of possible competitors. We have a number of archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't get me wrong, I support having "At events only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.

                                                      William Arwemakere

                                                      On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette <pickette@... > wrote:
                                                       

                                                      Dear Gladius -
                                                      This is a great help to those who wish GOA and related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?

                                                      JoO
                                                      Calontir


                                                      ---- James Koch alchem@...> wrote:
                                                      > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                                      > >
                                                      > From time to time over the years a discussion
                                                      > starts on this forum regarding the creation of a
                                                      > new type of tournament to augment the Royal
                                                      > Round, IKAC & etc... Many people do not believe
                                                      > that the existing standardized competitions give
                                                      > a well rounded view of the skill of many
                                                      > archers. Some people expressed the need for a
                                                      > way of recording and comparing the standings of
                                                      > competitors in large tournament shot at SCA
                                                      > events. More recently we had the discussion
                                                      > pertaining to finding and recognizing the top
                                                      > archers in the SCA. This was engendered by the
                                                      > news that the BOD was considering the possibility
                                                      > of new martial Peerages in addition to
                                                      > Knighthoods for armored combatants. The idea was
                                                      > suggested that we need something in the archery
                                                      > community similar to the crown tournaments of the armored combatants.
                                                      > A number of us realized that the task of
                                                      > designing such a tournament could not be
                                                      > accomplished in a large public forum. We
                                                      > therefore formed a small group to hash out how
                                                      > such a non standardized tournament could be run,
                                                      > scored, what rules would be required, and how the
                                                      > scores could be tabulated, recorded, and displayed.
                                                      > Late last Summer a Grand Archery Tournament was
                                                      > held in the Middle Kingdom according to these
                                                      > rules as a test. As a result of the test
                                                      > tournament, the rules were modified and
                                                      > improved. Additionally a spread sheet was
                                                      > created to automatically calculate the percentile
                                                      > rankings once the raw scores were entered.
                                                      > We believe the proposed rules are now ready for
                                                      > public comment prior to creating the scores
                                                      > page. These follow. We welcome your feedback.
                                                      > >
                                                      > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > Welcome to the Grand Archery Tournament Official
                                                      > page! The Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for
                                                      > short, is a system that allows all the archers in
                                                      > the Knowne World to compete in local tournaments
                                                      > and compare their performance to archers
                                                      > elsewhere in the SCA. Many archers shoot Royal
                                                      > Rounds, IKACs, and similar standardized
                                                      > competitions where the target type, ranges, and
                                                      > number of ends are the same whenever shot. A
                                                      > means needed to be devised to record scores and
                                                      > compare archer’s resulting standings in
                                                      > non-standardized tournaments as shot at most
                                                      > large events where archery is included. The GAT
                                                      > is an attempt to address this need.
                                                      >
                                                      > The intent of the GAT is therefore to allow
                                                      > scores obtained during non-standardized shoots to
                                                      > be recorded, and competitor’s final standings to
                                                      > be calculated based on their performance relative
                                                      > to the other shooters. For the sake of fairness
                                                      > at this time the GAT is divided into only two
                                                      > simple divisions, one for hand bows, and one for
                                                      > crossbows. A Grand Archery Tournament consists
                                                      > of one or many shoots, each with a numeric
                                                      > score. Once the shoots have been completed, all
                                                      > of the participant’s scores are submitted to the
                                                      > Keeper Of The GAT who will calculate the
                                                      > resulting standing of each shooter relative to
                                                      > the other competitors. The winner of the
                                                      > tournament will be assigned a standing of 100,
                                                      > while the others will have standings calculated
                                                      > as a percentage of the winner’s score.
                                                      >
                                                      > The formula for calculating standings is as follows.
                                                      > Standing = ((Score – Lowest-score) / (Highest-score – Lowest-score)) * 100
                                                      > In a GAT where eight crossbow shooters turned in
                                                      > numeric scores of 33, 29, 20, 20, 19, 13, 12, and
                                                      > 8, the resulting standings would be 100, 84, 48, 48, 44, 20, 16, and 0.
                                                      >
                                                      > The participant’s “name”, “kingdom”, “division”
                                                      > (bow type), “total GATs entered”, “sum of all
                                                      > standings”, “tournament place and date, and
                                                      > standing” are then recorded. A record is posted
                                                      > to the GAT scores page. Only participants who
                                                      > have shot at least one tournament with a standing
                                                      > of 50 or higher will have their record
                                                      > automatically posted to the scores page. This
                                                      > cut off is necessary due to space and other
                                                      > limitations too numerous to list here. If you
                                                      > have shot one or more GATS and none of your
                                                      > standings have reached the 50% or above
                                                      > threshold, you may contact the keeper of the
                                                      > scores and request that a record be displayed
                                                      > showing your standings down to whatever limit you
                                                      > deem necessary, and your record will be added to the GAT standings page.
                                                      >
                                                      > In the above example where eight crossbow
                                                      > shooters participated, only the individuals who
                                                      > earned standings of 100 and 84 would have records
                                                      > automatically added to the scores page, if they
                                                      > did not already have a previous record
                                                      > posted. If one of the shooters with a score of
                                                      > 48 already had one earlier GAT tournament posted,
                                                      > with a standing of 60, his “total GATs entered”
                                                      > would be increased to 2 and his “sum of all
                                                      > standings” would total 60 + 48 = 108.
                                                      >
                                                      > If you have any questions, comments, or
                                                      > criticisms, do not hesitate to write to me Joe The Scorekeeper.
                                                      >
                                                      > Marshal Accounts
                                                      > If you are a marshal, have not already gotten an
                                                      > account, and would be willing to submit your
                                                      > scores via the site, please send me an email with
                                                      > "Account Request" as the subject. The email must
                                                      > include your Mundane name, Scadian Name, Home
                                                      > Kingdom/Group, and Email address. Scores which
                                                      > are submitted via the site will be given priority
                                                      > for getting approved and included in the official standings.
                                                      >
                                                      > Grand Archery Tournament “GAT” Format and Requirements
                                                      > Any archery competition can be designated a
                                                      > GAT. However, if the resulting standings are to
                                                      > be calculated and posted to the official GAT
                                                      > scores page, the following criteria must be met.
                                                      >
                                                      > A minimum of 20 hand bow and/or 6 crossbow
                                                      > competitors must enter the GAT to assure the
                                                      > presence of a range of skill levels among the
                                                      > shooters. If too few competitors enter, the
                                                      > scores for that division will not be valid and
                                                      > will not be calculated and posted to the official
                                                      > GAT scores page. The GAT is intended as an
                                                      > advanced tournament and as such does not AT THIS
                                                      > TIME offer a youth division. However, all
                                                      > archers are welcome to compete regardless of age
                                                      > and ability. What if you don’t have enough
                                                      > people to hold a GAT in your area? 1) Train more
                                                      > archers. 2) Invite skilled competitors from
                                                      > surrounding kingdoms. 3) Design a competition
                                                      > made up of shoots that can be reproduced and shot
                                                      > at several events in several locations. So long
                                                      > as the locations provide similar conditions, the
                                                      > standings can be accurately calculated. As an
                                                      > example, if there are only 6 crossbow shooters in
                                                      > your entire kingdom, devise a tournament that can
                                                      > be set up at two or three events that all six
                                                      > crossbow shooters can attend. This could simply
                                                      > consist of a Royal Round or a RR and one or more
                                                      > novelty shoots. Announce on your kingdom
                                                      > calendar that a GAT will be shot at the X, Y, and
                                                      > Z events. Once the shoots are complete, submit
                                                      > the individual RR scores to your kingdom
                                                      > scorekeeper, and submit the combined RR and any
                                                      > novelty shoot scores to the Keeper Of The
                                                      > GAT. Of the 6 scores submitted, the top 2 or 3
                                                      > shooters will have their standings posted to the GAT scores page.
                                                      >
                                                      > To be official, the competition must be shot at
                                                      > an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in
                                                      > which it will be held. Unlike Royal Round and
                                                      > IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at practices or
                                                      > unofficial gatherings even if enough participants
                                                      > are present. This rule has been added to assure
                                                      > the maximum number of participants the
                                                      > opportunity to compete. So long as you can get
                                                      > enough people to compete to meet the minimum
                                                      > number requirements, your kingdom can host as
                                                      > many GATs per year as you wish. Ideally a large
                                                      > kingdom ought to host multiple GATs far enough
                                                      > apart to allow everyone a chance to submit a score.
                                                      > Equipment that is allowed in your kingdom
                                                      > according to your archery rules may be used in a
                                                      > GAT. Each GAT consists of two Divisions: Open
                                                      > Handbow, including period and modern equipment,
                                                      > and Open Crossbow, also including period and
                                                      > modern equipment. Any shoot with a numeric score can be included in a GAT.
                                                      >
                                                      > Certain basic information must be recorded and
                                                      > provided to the scorekeeper. This information
                                                      > must include The date or dates of the shoot, the
                                                      > place or places where the shoot was held,
                                                      > consisting of kingdom and group, the names of the
                                                      > participants, their home groups, their home
                                                      > kingdoms, their division (bow type), and their
                                                      > numeric score. Ties do not present a
                                                      > problem. If a participant was unable to complete
                                                      > the shoot for some reason, the partial score will
                                                      > be provided. If no partial score is provided, a
                                                      > score of zero will be assigned. Only the top 50%
                                                      > of submitted scores will be calculated and posted
                                                      > to the GAT standings page. So non-completion of
                                                      > a GAT due to illness or an equipment failure will
                                                      > not adversely affect an individuals posted standing.
                                                      >
                                                      > To ease and assist submitting the scores, a
                                                      > scores entry page has been created. Data may be
                                                      > entered in any order. The resulting standings
                                                      > will be posted to the official page within two weeks.

                                                    • James Koch
                                                      Edmund, ... This is something we considered, but didn t address since we figured it is unlikely to happen in most cases. My personal take is, how such a
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Edmund,
                                                        >
                                                        This is something we considered, but didn't address since we figured it is unlikely to happen in most cases.  My personal take is, how such a situation would be handled ought to be entirely up to the people who designed the shoot.  You could allow the person to shoot the tournament again, but submit only the original score.  You could submit the average, you could submit the highest score.  It is really up to the individuals designing the actual shoot to come up with rules which are both fair and allow for the greatest possible number of people to compete. 
                                                        >
                                                        Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >. At 09:41 AM 1/6/2013, you wrote:
                                                         

                                                        I love this idea, but I did have a question about the "multiple events" rule. My corner of Gleann Abhann is one such area where this rule would allow us to participate where otherwise we could not, but what happens if/when a shooter attends the second event with the GAT qualifying shoots?

                                                        Do the shooter's first score(s) stand, or their best score(s)? Can they mix and match scores from the two events to form a "composite" of sorts?

                                                        I'm not advocating one way or another, I simply know that this is a question that will eventually come up, and we as marshals need to know.

                                                        -Edmund of Penyngton
                                                        Live Weapons Marshal, Gleann Abhann
                                                        Baronial Yeoman of Small Gray Bear

                                                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Siegfried,
                                                        > >
                                                        > Jonathas is 100% correct. He neglected to add
                                                        > that people would not have to drive 3 hours to
                                                        > shoot the same thing they shot last
                                                        > weekend. Their score would already be on record.
                                                        > >
                                                        > There is something I neglected to mention when I
                                                        > first posted this. What I posted are not just
                                                        > the rules. In addition to the rules are notes as
                                                        > to why each rule is thought to be necessary along
                                                        > with examples of what the rule allows. Once the
                                                        > web site is created, you will see only the actual
                                                        > rules. For notes, explanations, and examples
                                                        > there will be hyperlinks to a FAQ page.
                                                        > >
                                                        > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > At 12:31 PM 1/5/2013, you wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Siegfried,
                                                        > >
                                                        > >That was added so that in locations that do not
                                                        > >draw many archers it would be possible to hold
                                                        > >the same shoot at several events such that the
                                                        > >combined total of archers would be enough. We
                                                        > >are lucky in Atlantia that the vast majority of
                                                        > >our archery events have enough archers to qualify.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Jonathas
                                                        > >On Jan 5, 2013 9:12 AM, "Siegfried"
                                                        > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Allow me to clarify - as my words may have been
                                                        > >confusing since this is a "any shoot can qualify" thing.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Primarily I meant the nature that this is still
                                                        > >standardized in the nature of "create a shoot
                                                        > >that can be run at 2-3 events" - Which
                                                        > >encourages identical shoots at events, vs unique
                                                        > >ones that are encouraged in our area.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >As people are not typically excited to drive
                                                        > >3hrs just to shoot the same thing they did last weekend.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >:-)
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Siegfried
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >On Jan 5, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Siegfried
                                                        > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > >>Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot
                                                        > >>get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia)
                                                        > >>that have prided themselves at havin unique
                                                        > >>interesting shoots at events. And keeping
                                                        > >>"stock" shoots (RR, IKAC, Winter) primarily at practices.
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >>Siegfried
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >>On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Bill Tait
                                                        > >>< arwemakere@...> wrote:
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >>>One question:
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>"To be official, the competition must be shot
                                                        > >>>at an event listed on the Calendar of the
                                                        > >>>kingdom in which it will be held. Unlike
                                                        > >>>Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be
                                                        > >>>shot at practices or unofficial gatherings
                                                        > >>>even if enough participants are present. This
                                                        > >>>rule has been added to assure the maximum
                                                        > >>>number of participants the opportunity to compete."
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>Huh? This would actually reduce the number of
                                                        > >>>possible competitors. We have a number of
                                                        > >>>archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per
                                                        > >>>year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't
                                                        > >>>get me wrong, I support having "At events
                                                        > >>>only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>William Arwemakere
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette
                                                        > >>>< pickette@...> wrote:
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>Dear Gladius -
                                                        > >>>This is a great help to those who wish GOA and
                                                        > >>>related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>JoO
                                                        > >>>Calontir
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>

                                                      • Bernal Schooley
                                                        Gladius, I m not sure if Edmund was asking about shooting multiple times in a multi-event shoot designed to get 20+ participants or if he was just talking
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Gladius, 

                                                          I'm not sure if Edmund was asking about shooting multiple times in a multi-event shoot designed to get 20+ participants or if he was just talking about shooting at multiple GAT events. In your examples you suggested that if an archer has multiple submitted scores they add together as the "sum of all standings" and the number of events would be noted as well. What I'm curious about is how scores are compared between individuals that participate in one, four and ten events. Do you have a system where the top four scores within the last year are summed for an official ranking or at least something similar?

                                                          --Richard de Scolay
                                                          Ayreton


                                                          On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 8:44 PM, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                                                           

                                                          Edmund,
                                                          >
                                                          This is something we considered, but didn't address since we figured it is unlikely to happen in most cases.  My personal take is, how such a situation would be handled ought to be entirely up to the people who designed the shoot.  You could allow the person to shoot the tournament again, but submit only the original score.  You could submit the average, you could submit the highest score.  It is really up to the individuals designing the actual shoot to come up with rules which are both fair and allow for the greatest possible number of people to compete. 

                                                          >
                                                          Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >. At 09:41 AM 1/6/2013, you wrote:
                                                           

                                                          I love this idea, but I did have a question about the "multiple events" rule. My corner of Gleann Abhann is one such area where this rule would allow us to participate where otherwise we could not, but what happens if/when a shooter attends the second event with the GAT qualifying shoots?

                                                          Do the shooter's first score(s) stand, or their best score(s)? Can they mix and match scores from the two events to form a "composite" of sorts?

                                                          I'm not advocating one way or another, I simply know that this is a question that will eventually come up, and we as marshals need to know.

                                                          -Edmund of Penyngton
                                                          Live Weapons Marshal, Gleann Abhann
                                                          Baronial Yeoman of Small Gray Bear

                                                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Siegfried,
                                                          > >
                                                          > Jonathas is 100% correct. He neglected to add
                                                          > that people would not have to drive 3 hours to
                                                          > shoot the same thing they shot last
                                                          > weekend. Their score would already be on record.
                                                          > >
                                                          > There is something I neglected to mention when I
                                                          > first posted this. What I posted are not just
                                                          > the rules. In addition to the rules are notes as
                                                          > to why each rule is thought to be necessary along
                                                          > with examples of what the rule allows. Once the
                                                          > web site is created, you will see only the actual
                                                          > rules. For notes, explanations, and examples
                                                          > there will be hyperlinks to a FAQ page.
                                                          > >
                                                          > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > At 12:31 PM 1/5/2013, you wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >Siegfried,
                                                          > >
                                                          > >That was added so that in locations that do not
                                                          > >draw many archers it would be possible to hold
                                                          > >the same shoot at several events such that the
                                                          > >combined total of archers would be enough. We
                                                          > >are lucky in Atlantia that the vast majority of
                                                          > >our archery events have enough archers to qualify.
                                                          > >
                                                          > >Jonathas
                                                          > >On Jan 5, 2013 9:12 AM, "Siegfried"
                                                          > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >Allow me to clarify - as my words may have been
                                                          > >confusing since this is a "any shoot can qualify" thing.
                                                          > >
                                                          > >Primarily I meant the nature that this is still
                                                          > >standardized in the nature of "create a shoot
                                                          > >that can be run at 2-3 events" - Which
                                                          > >encourages identical shoots at events, vs unique
                                                          > >ones that are encouraged in our area.
                                                          > >
                                                          > >As people are not typically excited to drive
                                                          > >3hrs just to shoot the same thing they did last weekend.
                                                          > >
                                                          > >:-)
                                                          > >
                                                          > >Siegfried
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >On Jan 5, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Siegfried
                                                          > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > >>Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot
                                                          > >>get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia)
                                                          > >>that have prided themselves at havin unique
                                                          > >>interesting shoots at events. And keeping
                                                          > >>"stock" shoots (RR, IKAC, Winter) primarily at practices.
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >>Siegfried
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >>On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Bill Tait
                                                          > >>< arwemakere@...> wrote:
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >>>One question:
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>>"To be official, the competition must be shot
                                                          > >>>at an event listed on the Calendar of the
                                                          > >>>kingdom in which it will be held. Unlike
                                                          > >>>Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be
                                                          > >>>shot at practices or unofficial gatherings
                                                          > >>>even if enough participants are present. This
                                                          > >>>rule has been added to assure the maximum
                                                          > >>>number of participants the opportunity to compete."
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>>Huh? This would actually reduce the number of
                                                          > >>>possible competitors. We have a number of
                                                          > >>>archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per
                                                          > >>>year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't
                                                          > >>>get me wrong, I support having "At events
                                                          > >>>only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>>William Arwemakere
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>>On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette
                                                          > >>>< pickette@...> wrote:
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>>Dear Gladius -
                                                          > >>>This is a great help to those who wish GOA and
                                                          > >>>related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>>JoO
                                                          > >>>Calontir
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>>


                                                        • James Koch
                                                          Richard, ... We went back and forth on this one. At this time we plan to list each relevant score shot. Basically anyone who finishes in the top half of a
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                                                            Richard,
                                                            >
                                                            We went back and forth on this one.  At this time we plan to list each relevant score shot.  Basically anyone who finishes in the top half of a GAT will have that score posted.  Initially people will have only one score posted, since this is so new.  Eventually, once people have shot in multiple GATs, they will have several scores behind their name.  There are a myriad number of "batting" averages we can come up with.  People can calculate those on their own.  If people start frequently using an average or a total, we can include it on the scores page.  We want this to be more like a crown tournament though than like a Royal Round.  In a crown tournament all that matters is who came in first, and to a lesser extent second, and how many times have they won. 
                                                            >
                                                            Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >   At 11:36 PM 1/6/2013, you wrote:
                                                             

                                                            Gladius,

                                                            I'm not sure if Edmund was asking about shooting multiple times in a multi-event shoot designed to get 20+ participants or if he was just talking about shooting at multiple GAT events. In your examples you suggested that if an archer has multiple submitted scores they add together as the "sum of all standings" and the number of events would be noted as well. What I'm curious about is how scores are compared between individuals that participate in one, four and ten events. Do you have a system where the top four scores within the last year are summed for an official ranking or at least something similar?

                                                            --Richard de Scolay
                                                            Ayreton


                                                            On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 8:44 PM, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                                                             

                                                            Edmund,
                                                            >
                                                            This is something we considered, but didn't address since we figured it is unlikely to happen in most cases.  My personal take is, how such a situation would be handled ought to be entirely up to the people who designed the shoot.  You could allow the person to shoot the tournament again, but submit only the original score.  You could submit the average, you could submit the highest score.  It is really up to the individuals designing the actual shoot to come up with rules which are both fair and allow for the greatest possible number of people to compete. 
                                                            >
                                                            Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >. At 09:41 AM 1/6/2013, you wrote:
                                                             

                                                            I love this idea, but I did have a question about the "multiple events" rule. My corner of Gleann Abhann is one such area where this rule would allow us to participate where otherwise we could not, but what happens if/when a shooter attends the second event with the GAT qualifying shoots?

                                                            Do the shooter's first score(s) stand, or their best score(s)? Can they mix and match scores from the two events to form a "composite" of sorts?

                                                            I'm not advocating one way or another, I simply know that this is a question that will eventually come up, and we as marshals need to know.

                                                            -Edmund of Penyngton
                                                            Live Weapons Marshal, Gleann Abhann
                                                            Baronial Yeoman of Small Gray Bear

                                                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Siegfried,
                                                            > >
                                                            > Jonathas is 100% correct. He neglected to add
                                                            > that people would not have to drive 3 hours to
                                                            > shoot the same thing they shot last
                                                            > weekend. Their score would already be on record.
                                                            > >
                                                            > There is something I neglected to mention when I
                                                            > first posted this. What I posted are not just
                                                            > the rules. In addition to the rules are notes as
                                                            > to why each rule is thought to be necessary along
                                                            > with examples of what the rule allows. Once the
                                                            > web site is created, you will see only the actual
                                                            > rules. For notes, explanations, and examples
                                                            > there will be hyperlinks to a FAQ page.
                                                            > >
                                                            > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > At 12:31 PM 1/5/2013, you wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >Siegfried,
                                                            > >
                                                            > >That was added so that in locations that do not
                                                            > >draw many archers it would be possible to hold
                                                            > >the same shoot at several events such that the
                                                            > >combined total of archers would be enough. We
                                                            > >are lucky in Atlantia that the vast majority of
                                                            > >our archery events have enough archers to qualify.
                                                            > >
                                                            > >Jonathas
                                                            > >On Jan 5, 2013 9:12 AM, "Siegfried"
                                                            > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >Allow me to clarify - as my words may have been
                                                            > >confusing since this is a "any shoot can qualify" thing.
                                                            > >
                                                            > >Primarily I meant the nature that this is still
                                                            > >standardized in the nature of "create a shoot
                                                            > >that can be run at 2-3 events" - Which
                                                            > >encourages identical shoots at events, vs unique
                                                            > >ones that are encouraged in our area.
                                                            > >
                                                            > >As people are not typically excited to drive
                                                            > >3hrs just to shoot the same thing they did last weekend.
                                                            > >
                                                            > >:-)
                                                            > >
                                                            > >Siegfried
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >On Jan 5, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Siegfried
                                                            > >< siegfried@...> wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > >>Also it would probably guarantee that the shoot
                                                            > >>get little traction in areas (such as Atlantia)
                                                            > >>that have prided themselves at havin unique
                                                            > >>interesting shoots at events. And keeping
                                                            > >>"stock" shoots (RR, IKAC, Winter) primarily at practices.
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >>Siegfried
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >>On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Bill Tait
                                                            > >>< arwemakere@...> wrote:
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >>>One question:
                                                            > >>>
                                                            > >>>"To be official, the competition must be shot
                                                            > >>>at an event listed on the Calendar of the
                                                            > >>>kingdom in which it will be held. Unlike
                                                            > >>>Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be
                                                            > >>>shot at practices or unofficial gatherings
                                                            > >>>even if enough participants are present. This
                                                            > >>>rule has been added to assure the maximum
                                                            > >>>number of participants the opportunity to compete."
                                                            > >>>
                                                            > >>>Huh? This would actually reduce the number of
                                                            > >>>possible competitors. We have a number of
                                                            > >>>archers who only get to 2 or 3 events per
                                                            > >>>year, but can attend weekly practices. Don't
                                                            > >>>get me wrong, I support having "At events
                                                            > >>>only" shoots for ranking, it's just your statement doesn't make sense.
                                                            > >>>
                                                            > >>>William Arwemakere
                                                            > >>>
                                                            > >>>On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Jim Pickette
                                                            > >>>< pickette@...> wrote:
                                                            > >>>
                                                            > >>>
                                                            > >>>Dear Gladius -
                                                            > >>>This is a great help to those who wish GOA and
                                                            > >>>related awards. How does it help the un-ranked ?
                                                            > >>>
                                                            > >>>JoO
                                                            > >>>Calontir
                                                            > >>>
                                                            > >>>

                                                          • James Koch
                                                            Gentlemen & Ladies, ... Sir Jon requested that I post the revised version of the proposed rules for the new Grand Archery Tournament. We have made a number of
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jan 15, 2013
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                                                              Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                                              >
                                                              Sir Jon requested that I post the revised version of the proposed rules for the new Grand Archery Tournament.  We have made a number of changes to address concerns expressed and for the sake of clarity.  Again, I am sorry for the layout.  Once these rules have been finalized and displayed on a web site, much of the information can be placed on hyperlinks for the sake of simplicity and brevity.  We look forward to your suggestions, and comments.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                                                     Welcome to the Grand Archery Tournament Official page!
                                                                                               PART ONE, BACKGROUND
                                                              The Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for short, is a system that allows all the archers in the Knowne World to compete in local tournaments and compare their performance to archers elsewhere in the SCA.  Many archers shoot Royal Rounds, IKACs, and similar standardized competitions where the target type, ranges, and number of ends are the same whenever shot.  A means needed to be devised to record scores and compare archer’s resulting standings in non-standardized tournaments as shot at most large events where archery is included.  The GAT is an attempt to address this need. 
                                                               
                                                              INTENT.  The intent of the GAT is therefore to allow scores obtained during non-standardized shoots to be recorded, and competitor’s final standings to be calculated based on their performance relative to the other shooters, and displayed for comparison. 
                                                               
                                                              ORGANIZATION.  For the sake of simplicity and fairness, at this time the GAT is divided into only two divisions, one for hand bows, and one for crossbows.  A Grand Archery Tournament consists of one or many shoots, each with a numeric score.  The GAT is meant to be an advanced tournament, but, all archers are welcome to compete regardless of age and ability.     
                                                               
                                                              SUBMISSIONS.  Once the shoots have been completed, all of the participant’s scores and other necessary information may be submitted by the responsible marshal to the Keeper Of The GAT who will calculate the resulting standing of each shooter relative to the other competitors.  The winner of the tournament will be assigned a standing of 100, while the others will have standings calculated as a percentage of the winner’s score.
                                                               
                                                              CALCULATION.  The formula the Keeper Of The GAT uses for calculating standings is as follows. 
                                                              Standing = ((Score – Lowest-score) / (Highest-score – Lowest-score)) * 100
                                                              In a GAT where eight crossbow shooters turned in numeric scores of 33, 29, 20, 20, 19, 13, 12, and 8, the resulting standings would be 100, 84, 48, 48, 44, 20, 16, and 0. 
                                                               
                                                              RESULTS.  The participant’s “name”, “kingdom”, “division” (bow type), “total GATs entered”, “tournament place and date, and standing” are then recorded.  A record is posted to the GAT standings web page.  Only participants who have shot at least one tournament with a standing of 50 or higher will have their record automatically posted to the scores page.  This cut off is necessary due to space and other limitations too numerous to list here.  If you have shot one or more GATS and none of your standings have reached the 50% or above threshold, you may contact the Keeper Of The GAT and request that a record be displayed showing your standings down to whatever limit you deem necessary, and your record will be added to the GAT standings page.  As scores accumulate, various other statistics may be added to the standings page.   
                                                              In the earlier example where eight crossbow shooters participated, only the individuals who earned standings of 100 and 84 would have records automatically added to the scores page, if they did not already have a previous record posted.  If one of the shooters with a score of 48 already had one earlier GAT tournament posted, with a standing of 60, his “total GATs entered” would be increased to 2.           
                                                                  
                                                              QUESTIONS.  If you have any questions, comments, or criticisms, do not hesitate to write to me Joe The Scorekeeper.
                                                               
                                                              MARSHAL ACCOUNTS.  If you are a marshal, have not already gotten an account, and would be willing to submit your scores via the site, please send me an email with "Account Request" as the subject. The email must include your Mundane name, Scadian Name, Home Kingdom/Group, and Email address. Scores which are submitted via the site will be given priority for getting approved and included in the official standings.
                                                               
                                                                                 PART TWO FORMAT AND REQUIREMENTS
                                                              Any archery competition can be designated a GAT.  However, if the resulting standings are to be calculated and posted to the official GAT scores page, the following criteria must be met.
                                                               
                                                              RULE 1.  In order for the keeper of the scores to be able to calculate valid standings, a minimum of 20 hand bow or 6 crossbow competitors must enter the tournament.  END OF RULE 1. 
                                                              REASON FOR RULE 1.  If too few competitors enter either division, the scores for that division will not be statistically valid and will not be calculated and posted to the official GAT scores page.  END OF REASON FOR RULE 1.
                                                              RULE 1 CONSIDERATIONS.  What if you don’t have enough people to hold a GAT in your area?  1) Train more archers.  2) Invite skilled competitors from surrounding kingdoms.  3) Design a competition made up of shoots that can be reproduced and shot at several events in several locations.  So long as the locations provide similar conditions, the standings can be accurately calculated.  As an example, if there are only 6 crossbow shooters in your entire kingdom, devise a tournament that can be set up at two or three events that all six crossbow shooters can attend.  Announce on your kingdom calendar that a GAT will be shot at the X, Y, and Z events.  Once the shoots are complete, submit the accumulated information to the Keeper Of The GAT.  END OF RULE 1 CONSIDERATIONS.    
                                                               

                                                              RULE 2.  To be official, the GAT must be shot at an event listed on the Calendar of the kingdom in which it will be held.  Unlike Royal Round and IKAC shoots, GATs may not be shot at unofficial gatherings even if enough participants are present.  END OF RULE 2.

                                                              REASON FOR RULE 2.  This rule has been added to assure the maximum number of participants the opportunity to compete.  END OF REASON FOR RULE 2. 

                                                              RULE 2 CONSIDERATIONS.  A kingdom can host many GATs per year.  Ideally a large kingdom ought to host multiple GATs far enough apart to allow everyone a chance to submit a score.  If your local weekly practice attracts the required number of participants to qualify as a GAT, simply announce it as such on your kingdom’s calendar. END OF RULE 2 CONSIDERATIONS.

                                                              RULE 3.  Equipment that is allowed in your kingdom according to your archery rules may be used to shoot a GAT.  Equipment that is not allowed in your kingdom according to your archery rules may not be used to shoot a GAT.  END OF RULE 3.
                                                               
                                                              RULE 4.  Certain basic information must be recorded and provided to the Keeper Of The GAT by the responsible marshal.  This is to include The date or dates of the shoot, the place or places where the shoot was held, consisting of kingdom and group, the names of the participants, their home groups, their home kingdoms, their division (bow type), and their numeric score.  END OF RULE 4.
                                                              RULE 4 CONSIDERATIONS.  Ties do not present a problem.  If a participant was unable to complete the shoot for some reason, the partial score will be provided.  If no partial score is provided, a score of zero will be assigned.  Only the top 50% of submitted scores will be calculated and posted to the GAT standings page.  So non-completion of a GAT due to illness or an equipment failure will not adversely affect an individuals posted standing.  END OF RULE 4 CONSIDERATIONS.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
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