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Re: [SCA-Archery] Horn Nocks

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  • John Edgerton
    Are you looking for a horn equivalent of a slide on tapered plastic nock? If you know of a reference for these being used in period, I would like to add it to
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 13 3:19 PM
      Are you looking for a horn equivalent of a slide on tapered plastic nock? If you know of a reference for these being used in period, I would like to add it to my files.  Or do you want the horn inserts that were used in period to reinforce nocks cut into the wood shaft? They were often thin (1/16 to 1/8) rectangles about the width of the shaft and about two inches long or they were triangular wedges that fit into the end of the shaft with the nock slot cut into them. 

      Jon, West


      From: aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...>
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, September 13, 2012 2:40:35 PM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Horn Nocks

       

      Anyone here ever made nocks out of horn? 3 Rivers carries a horn nock that is meant to be INSERTED into bamboo arrows, but I'm looking for either a source of "slip on/over" horn nocks, or some info on how to go about making them myself. (doesn't look like there's enough meat on the 3 Rivers kind to modify/ drill them out for a tapered shaft)

      Thanks,
      Aelric, West K

    • James W
      Here is one site http://traditionalbowshop.com/arrow-accessories/91-horn-nock-to-arrows.html James
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 13 4:03 PM
        Here is one site

        http://traditionalbowshop.com/arrow-accessories/91-horn-nock-to-arrows.html

        James
        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "aelric_southlake" <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
        >
        > Anyone here ever made nocks out of horn? 3 Rivers carries a horn nock that is meant to be INSERTED into bamboo arrows, but I'm looking for either a source of "slip on/over" horn nocks, or some info on how to go about making them myself. (doesn't look like there's enough meat on the 3 Rivers kind to modify/ drill them out for a tapered shaft)
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Aelric, West K
        >
      • Doug Copley
        I have never used a nock like that and have never seen one documented as being period. My horn inserts have always been the ones that were fitted in to a slot
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 13 6:57 PM
          I have never used a nock like that and have never seen one documented as
          being period.

          My horn inserts have always been the ones that were fitted in to a slot
          in the arrow shaft and then the nock for the string was cut
          perpendicular to that. Using this method I have never had one split or
          break and I shoot a 50# longbow.

          Vincenti

          On 9/13/2012 6:03 PM, James W wrote:
          >
          > Here is one site
          >
          > http://traditionalbowshop.com/arrow-accessories/91-horn-nock-to-arrows.html
          >
          > James
          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>, "aelric_southlake"
          > <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Anyone here ever made nocks out of horn? 3 Rivers carries a horn nock
          > that is meant to be INSERTED into bamboo arrows, but I'm looking for
          > either a source of "slip on/over" horn nocks, or some info on how to go
          > about making them myself. (doesn't look like there's enough meat on the
          > 3 Rivers kind to modify/ drill them out for a tapered shaft)
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Aelric, West K
          > >
        • James W
          No, I don t believe they are period. There is a turkish horn nock but it doesn t really look like this. It is really just a modern plastic nock out of a
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 13 7:20 PM
            No, I don't believe they are period.

            There is a turkish horn nock but it doesn't really look like this.

            It is really just a modern plastic nock out of a natural material.

            James

            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Doug Copley <doug.copley@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have never used a nock like that and have never seen one documented as
            > being period.
            >
            > My horn inserts have always been the ones that were fitted in to a slot
            > in the arrow shaft and then the nock for the string was cut
            > perpendicular to that. Using this method I have never had one split or
            > break and I shoot a 50# longbow.
            >
            > Vincenti
            >
            > On 9/13/2012 6:03 PM, James W wrote:
            > >
            > > Here is one site
            > >
            > > http://traditionalbowshop.com/arrow-accessories/91-horn-nock-to-arrows.html
            > >
            > > James
            > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            > > <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>, "aelric_southlake"
            > > <magnetcoil@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Anyone here ever made nocks out of horn? 3 Rivers carries a horn nock
            > > that is meant to be INSERTED into bamboo arrows, but I'm looking for
            > > either a source of "slip on/over" horn nocks, or some info on how to go
            > > about making them myself. (doesn't look like there's enough meat on the
            > > 3 Rivers kind to modify/ drill them out for a tapered shaft)
            > > >
            > > > Thanks,
            > > > Aelric, West K
            > > >
            >
          • Doug Copley
            ahhh, kk. I was thinking that I really needed to read this:-) Vincenti
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 13 7:54 PM
              ahhh, kk. I was thinking that I really needed to read this:-)

              Vincenti

              On 9/13/2012 9:20 PM, James W wrote:
              > No, I don't believe they are period.
              >
              > There is a turkish horn nock but it doesn't really look like this.
              >
              > It is really just a modern plastic nock out of a natural material.
              >
              > James
              >
              > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>, Doug Copley <doug.copley@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I have never used a nock like that and have never seen one documented as
              > > being period.
              > >
              > > My horn inserts have always been the ones that were fitted in to a slot
              > > in the arrow shaft and then the nock for the string was cut
              > > perpendicular to that. Using this method I have never had one split or
              > > break and I shoot a 50# longbow.
              > >
              > > Vincenti
              > >
              > > On 9/13/2012 6:03 PM, James W wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Here is one site
              > > >
              > > >
              > http://traditionalbowshop.com/arrow-accessories/91-horn-nock-to-arrows.html
              > > >
              > > > James
              > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > > <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>, "aelric_southlake"
              > > > <magnetcoil@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Anyone here ever made nocks out of horn? 3 Rivers carries a horn nock
              > > > that is meant to be INSERTED into bamboo arrows, but I'm looking for
              > > > either a source of "slip on/over" horn nocks, or some info on how to go
              > > > about making them myself. (doesn't look like there's enough meat on the
              > > > 3 Rivers kind to modify/ drill them out for a tapered shaft)
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks,
              > > > > Aelric, West K
              > > > >
              > >
            • Bill Tait
              But. It _is_ a nock made from horn, not plastic. William
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 13 8:31 PM
                But.

                It _is_ a nock made from horn, not plastic.

                William

                On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Doug Copley <doug.copley@...> wrote:
                 

                ahhh, kk. I was thinking that I really needed to read this:-)

                Vincenti



                On 9/13/2012 9:20 PM, James W wrote:
                > No, I don't believe they are period.
                >
                > There is a turkish horn nock but it doesn't really look like this.
                >
                > It is really just a modern plastic nock out of a natural material.
                >
                > James
                >
                > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>, Doug Copley <doug.copley@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > I have never used a nock like that and have never seen one documented as
                > > being period.
                > >
                > > My horn inserts have always been the ones that were fitted in to a slot
                > > in the arrow shaft and then the nock for the string was cut
                > > perpendicular to that. Using this method I have never had one split or
                > > break and I shoot a 50# longbow.
                > >
                > > Vincenti
                > >
                > > On 9/13/2012 6:03 PM, James W wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Here is one site
                > > >
                > > >
                > http://traditionalbowshop.com/arrow-accessories/91-horn-nock-to-arrows.html
                > > >
                > > > James
                > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>, "aelric_southlake"
                > > > <magnetcoil@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Anyone here ever made nocks out of horn? 3 Rivers carries a horn nock
                > > > that is meant to be INSERTED into bamboo arrows, but I'm looking for
                > > > either a source of "slip on/over" horn nocks, or some info on how to go
                > > > about making them myself. (doesn't look like there's enough meat on the
                > > > 3 Rivers kind to modify/ drill them out for a tapered shaft)
                > > > >
                > > > > Thanks,
                > > > > Aelric, West K
                > > > >
                > >


              • aelric_southlake
                Thanks for replies. Don t mean the sliver of horn type nock reinforcement. Or the wedge of horn type. I should have explained. My periods-of-interest
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 14 9:04 AM

                  Thanks for replies.  Don't mean the 'sliver of horn' type nock reinforcement. Or the 'wedge of horn' type. I should have explained.  My periods-of-interest lean toward Migration, "viking" type stuff (and well up to 2nd Crusade, but as far as this current archery pursuit goes, more the former).

                  I have seen examples of  the "chunky extra wood at the end" type "viking" nocks, which I may try someday if I ever make a shaft from scratch. But SOMEWHERE in my diggings and searchings (and of course, I won't be able to find it now) I came across references to cast bronze nocks (Birka) and this notion that they might've also carved nocks from bone or horn. I can't remember how it was phrased, but the impression I got was an implication of "over the shaft"/ applied nock (like a modern nock, but probably none too streamlined).

                  I have some self nocks arrows that don't have reinforcement of any kind - that's ok, but they seem somehow 'wrong' to me.  The 'sliver of horn' method arrows look very late period - I say this only because of the context they're usually presented in.  I SURELY am no authority - not even a well informed novice.  All of this has led me to start digging around for a method of nock reinforcement that would work for what we might generically call "early period."

                  I'm not really set up to cast bronze, so I thought maybe a carved bone or horn nock would do. Something in the neighborhood of the profile of those "chunky extra wood at the end" period examples.

                  In my first post I probably should have led with "Nock reinforcement for 'Early Period' arrows?" ha ha ha...   Any other info, thoughts, direction would be, as always, greatly appreciated.

                  Oh, and I've seen those same nocks (from the link) on e-bay (sold out). Interesting, but strangely modern looking. Raptor Archery makes a horn nock arrow (expensive, but GORGEOUS) with a nock that is a bit more in step with what I was visualizing.  I told him he should make a youtube vid on how to make them, ha ha ha... 

                  ~ Aelric, West K

                • John Edgerton
                  You could make your own. But, you would need a mini-lathe and a drill press and make parallel, rather than tapered fit for the shafts. And I would suggest
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 14 9:54 AM
                    You could make your own.  But, you would need a mini-lathe and a drill press and make parallel, rather than tapered fit for the shafts. And I would suggest practicing using Delrin instead of horn till you work out the method. I used to make "bulbous" nocks for olde style combat arrows that way. 

                    Jon


                    From: aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...>
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 9:04:48 AM
                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Horn Nocks

                     

                    Thanks for replies.  Don't mean the 'sliver of horn' type nock reinforcement. Or the 'wedge of horn' type. I should have explained.  My periods-of-interest lean toward Migration, "viking" type stuff (and well up to 2nd Crusade, but as far as this current archery pursuit goes, more the former).

                    I have seen examples of  the "chunky extra wood at the end" type "viking" nocks, which I may try someday if I ever make a shaft from scratch. But SOMEWHERE in my diggings and searchings (and of course, I won't be able to find it now) I came across references to cast bronze nocks (Birka) and this notion that they might've also carved nocks from bone or horn. I can't remember how it was phrased, but the impression I got was an implication of "over the shaft"/ applied nock (like a modern nock, but probably none too streamlined).

                    I have some self nocks arrows that don't have reinforcement of any kind - that's ok, but they seem somehow 'wrong' to me.  The 'sliver of horn' method arrows look very late period - I say this only because of the context they're usually presented in.  I SURELY am no authority - not even a well informed novice.  All of this has led me to start digging around for a method of nock reinforcement that would work for what we might generically call "early period."

                    I'm not really set up to cast bronze, so I thought maybe a carved bone or horn nock would do. Something in the neighborhood of the profile of those "chunky extra wood at the end" period examples.

                    In my first post I probably should have led with "Nock reinforcement for 'Early Period' arrows?" ha ha ha...   Any other info, thoughts, direction would be, as always, greatly appreciated.

                    Oh, and I've seen those same nocks (from the link) on e-bay (sold out). Interesting, but strangely modern looking. Raptor Archery makes a horn nock arrow (expensive, but GORGEOUS) with a nock that is a bit more in step with what I was visualizing.  I told him he should make a youtube vid on how to make them, ha ha ha... 

                    ~ Aelric, West K

                  • James of the Lake
                    Erik Roth, _With a Bended Bow: Archery in Mediaeval and Renaissance Europe_, Spellmount, The History Press, Port Stroud, Gloucestershire, 2012, ISBN
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 14 12:11 PM
                      Erik Roth, _With a Bended Bow: Archery in Mediaeval and Renaissance Europe_,  Spellmount, The History Press, Port Stroud,  Gloucestershire, 2012, ISBN 9780752463551, p. 36, shows a drawing of a brass nock insert next to a Viking arrow in addition to unreinforced, "chunky extra wood at the end" nocks.  

                      James

                      On Sep 14, 2012, at 9:04 AM, aelric_southlake wrote:

                       

                      I have seen examples of  the "chunky extra wood at the end" type "viking" nocks, which I may try someday if I ever make a shaft from scratch. But SOMEWHERE in my diggings and searchings (and of course, I won't be able to find it now) I came across references to cast bronze nocks (Birka) and this notion that they might've also carved nocks from bone or horn. I can't remember how it was phrased, but the impression I got was an implication of "over the shaft"/ applied nock (like a modern nock, but probably none too streamlined).


                    • aelric_southlake
                      Thank you Jon and James. I see this topic has come up before, should ve searched before posting, my apologies. James, thank you for the book reference! Sounds
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 14 1:20 PM
                        Thank you Jon and James. I see this topic has come up before, should've searched before posting, my apologies.

                        James, thank you for the book reference!

                        Sounds like the gentleman in the previous post found DRILLED horn nocks from 3 Rivers... too bad they don't carry them now.

                        Jon, I was thinking of cutting some horn (seems an easier place to start than bone, maybe that's not true) into small blocks, drilling them parallel to the shaft, as you were suggesting, glueing them to the shaft (so's to have something to hold on to) and then going at them with a file. I don't know if that's a really bad idea or not (does horn like filing?, does it de-laminate?). But I DO like the idea of practicing with Delrin first!

                        As this mission progresses, I will update with my travails...

                        ~ Aelric, West K
                      • Ld.blackmoon
                        greetings i believe what 3 rivers sells are the rivercane / bamboo nocks and points : http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=6344X
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 14 1:49 PM
                          greetings
                           
                          i believe what 3 rivers sells are the rivercane / bamboo nocks and points : http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=6344X     http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=6348X 
                          they don't appear to still carry the horn target tips like they used to though : /
                           
                          Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun .
                          Arthur
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 3:20 PM
                          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Horn Nocks

                           

                          Thank you Jon and James. I see this topic has come up before, should've searched before posting, my apologies.

                          James, thank you for the book reference!

                          Sounds like the gentleman in the previous post found DRILLED horn nocks from 3 Rivers... too bad they don't carry them now.

                          Jon, I was thinking of cutting some horn (seems an easier place to start than bone, maybe that's not true) into small blocks, drilling them parallel to the shaft, as you were suggesting, glueing them to the shaft (so's to have something to hold on to) and then going at them with a file. I don't know if that's a really bad idea or not (does horn like filing?, does it de-laminate?). But I DO like the idea of practicing with Delrin first!

                          As this mission progresses, I will update with my travails...

                          ~ Aelric, West K

                        • John Edgerton
                          See the photo section of the group for the drawing of the arrow with brass nock from the book. Go to period nocks folder and click on viking brass nock, Jon
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 14 2:18 PM
                            See the photo section of the group for the drawing of the arrow with brass nock from the book. Go to period nocks folder and click on viking brass nock,

                            Jon


                            From: James of the Lake <jotl2008@...>
                            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 12:11:33 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Horn Nocks

                             

                            Erik Roth, _With a Bended Bow: Archery in Mediaeval and Renaissance Europe_,  Spellmount, The History Press, Port Stroud,  Gloucestershire, 2012, ISBN 9780752463551, p. 36, shows a drawing of a brass nock insert next to a Viking arrow in addition to unreinforced, "chunky extra wood at the end" nocks.  


                            James,_._,___
                          • John Edgerton
                            You can also attach the horn to a short section of shaft and insert the shaft into a electric hand drill held in a vice or into a drill press and use that to
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 14 2:30 PM
                              You can also attach the horn to a short section of shaft and insert the shaft into a electric hand drill held in a vice or into a drill press and use that to turn the horn/plastic while you file or cut it. I used a 7/32 drill bit and threaded a length of 1/4-20 bolt into the plastic and then chucked that to a drill press and used files to shape it. You can drill out the shaft hole afterward to the correct size.  I would also suggest going with something more bulbous in shape to allow more room for error. 

                              Any chance you will be at Westermark Madness?

                              Jon


                              From: aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...>
                              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 1:20:23 PM
                              Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Horn Nocks

                               

                              Thank you Jon and James. I see this topic has come up before, should've searched before posting, my apologies.

                              James, thank you for the book reference!

                              Sounds like the gentleman in the previous post found DRILLED horn nocks from 3 Rivers... too bad they don't carry them now.

                              Jon, I was thinking of cutting some horn (seems an easier place to start than bone, maybe that's not true) into small blocks, drilling them parallel to the shaft, as you were suggesting, glueing them to the shaft (so's to have something to hold on to) and then going at them with a file. I don't know if that's a really bad idea or not (does horn like filing?, does it de-laminate?). But I DO like the idea of practicing with Delrin first!

                              As this mission progresses, I will update with my travails...

                              ~ Aelric, West K

                            • James W
                              Actually, I think the gentlemen in the older post was looking at the pre-drilled horn nocks for english long bows which 3rivers still sells.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 14 2:40 PM
                                Actually, I think the gentlemen in the older post was looking at the pre-drilled horn nocks for english long bows which 3rivers still sells.

                                http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=8567X

                                Normally, when I hear horn nocks, I think of bow nocks.

                                I believe the bronze nocks you are referring to are actually a tang fit reinforced by a wire wrap.

                                If they were a tang fit, the inserts for the bamboo might actually be a suitable option.

                                Cheers,
                                James
                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "aelric_southlake" <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thank you Jon and James. I see this topic has come up before, should've searched before posting, my apologies.
                                >
                                > James, thank you for the book reference!
                                >
                                > Sounds like the gentleman in the previous post found DRILLED horn nocks from 3 Rivers... too bad they don't carry them now.
                                >
                                > Jon, I was thinking of cutting some horn (seems an easier place to start than bone, maybe that's not true) into small blocks, drilling them parallel to the shaft, as you were suggesting, glueing them to the shaft (so's to have something to hold on to) and then going at them with a file. I don't know if that's a really bad idea or not (does horn like filing?, does it de-laminate?). But I DO like the idea of practicing with Delrin first!
                                >
                                > As this mission progresses, I will update with my travails...
                                >
                                > ~ Aelric, West K
                                >
                              • lekervere
                                Interesting. That brass nock looks a lot like the profile of many native american arrow nocks, which were designed to be used with a thumb and finger pinch
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 14 3:00 PM
                                  Interesting. That brass nock looks a lot like the profile of many native american arrow nocks, which were designed to be used with a thumb and finger pinch release. I wonder...

                                  Edward le Kervere

                                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > See the photo section of the group for the drawing of the arrow with brass nock
                                  > from the book. Go to period nocks folder and click on viking brass nock,
                                  >
                                  > Jon
                                  >
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/photos/album/142364681/pic/631010821/view?picmode=original&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: James of the Lake <jotl2008@...>
                                  > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 12:11:33 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Horn Nocks
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Erik Roth, _With a Bended Bow: Archery in Mediaeval and Renaissance Europe_,
                                  > Spellmount, The History Press, Port Stroud, Gloucestershire, 2012, ISBN
                                  > 9780752463551, p. 36, shows a drawing of a brass nock insert next to a Viking
                                  > arrow in addition to unreinforced, "chunky extra wood at the end" nocks.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > James,_._,___
                                  >
                                • aelric_southlake
                                  Yeah, about 3 minutes after I made my last post I was like, wait a minute, duh... the previous post I mentioned was probably talking about bow nocks.
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 14 3:22 PM
                                    Yeah, about 3 minutes after I made my last post I was like, "wait a minute, duh... the 'previous post' I mentioned was probably talking about bow nocks." Yeah, duhh...

                                    ~ A
                                  • aelric_southlake
                                    Jon, great idea. And thank you for direction to the pic. That raises so many questions! And wow! I d only read about the cast brass nocks, didn t imagine they
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Sep 14 3:35 PM
                                      Jon, great idea. And thank you for direction to the pic. That raises so many questions! And wow! I'd only read about the cast brass nocks, didn't imagine they were tanged. This means that indeed, as suggested, the 3 Rivers tanged bone and horn nocks COULD be quasi-appropriate (if, I would imagine, you reinforced the tang hole with linen or sinew wrap).
                                      Hmmm...

                                      I was hoping to make my next batch of arrows out of the 3 Rivers tapered shafts, but was told they were back ordered with "no foreseeable" delivery date. "could be up to 6 months"...So among other things, I'm looking for another source of tapered shafts. I'm not ready to start making my own shafts yet, ha ha ha SOMEDAY!

                                      > You can also attach the horn to a short section of shaft and insert the shaft...
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