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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: The Fourth Peerage

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  • Ld.blackmoon
    greetings something else to think about , with kingdoms relying on the money being made at war , some kingdoms are also increasing the amount of combat
    Message 1 of 127 , May 8 9:48 AM
      something else to think about ,
      with kingdoms relying on the money being made at war , some kingdoms are also increasing the amount of " combat archery " ( as well as ikcac )
      done during their " kingdom archery champion " tourney , at times to the exclusion of target archery .
      would that affect how a kingdoms " masters " were chosen ?
      also things like , do you lose your ranking if you have health issues, and cant shoot any longer ? do you lose your rankings each year if your scores drop for any reason ? ( or if the scoring system changes ? )
      will people only qualify for a masters ranking if they can afford to go to a major war to compete in a tourney ?
      will the master ranking be for the most accurate archer? the most skilled archer ? the best dressed archer ? the archer with the most matching period gear ? the archer that goes to the most wars ?
       the archer with the most logged hours marshaling , or teaching ?
      all of the above ? or some mixture of the above ?
      an old fart that may or may not ever get to compete in top flight competitions again due to arthritis in the spine .
      Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun .
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: The Greys
      Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 10:38 AM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: The Fourth Peerage


      For me the question about a Masters shoot is is it to determine the best archer in the SCA or is it a shoot on a grand scale shot by the best, i.e. open to all those who qualified as a master (yet to be determined how that happens) within their kingdom. If it is to determine the best archer in the SCA then it needs to be advertised long before a few months prior to Pennsic. Not everyone lives within a few hours of Pennsic and lives need to be rescheduled to plan for it. All of this if a person REALLY wants to be in the competition and I expect that there will be some.

      If there is a Master Shoot at Pennsic this year I would think a few potentially major issues come up. If one competes in the master shoot should they also be eligible to shoot in the war point shoot which has traditionally be called the Masters Shoot? If an individual can shoot in both then it pretty much drums out those "unworthy". My point being, the better shooters hog all the opportunities. This will run into the purpose of who gets on the former Masters team. The idea there was to win the war point, thus your better shooters make the team. But the better shooters will also want to and will most likely qualify for the new Masters Shoot and thus, the better shooters hog all the opportunities.

      As for a Masters shoot at a kingdom level the issue of what constitutes a masters shoot needs to be resolved. i.e. we have Royal Rounds and IKACs that are the same, we need similar for a masters shoot particularly if we are going to rank masters between kingdoms. Atlantia has an Atlantian Archery Champion, would that qualify them to be a master? Each year the shoot to determine who that person is is different. How would a Trimarian Champion fare against an Atlantian champion at any particular shoot wherein the shooting stations are not the same as in, say, East or Mid Realm? Thus the issue of consistency for cross kingdom rankings.

      I like the idea of division between crossbow and handbow.

      Just a few more things to discuss and think about.


      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
      > Gentlemen & Ladies,
      > >
      > We have had a break. Now it is time to get back to the matter of the
      > Archery Masters and the proposed Master's tournaments. Merlin and I
      > are working on promoting a couple Master's Tournaments here in the
      > Middle Kingdom. Basically the archery equivalent of a crown
      > tournament. I have also been wondering if the tournament at this
      > coming Pennsic will be a Master's tournament?
      > >
      > What is required of an archery tournament for it to be considered a
      > Master's tournament? Eventually we can say, "A Master's tournament
      > must have at least a minimum of X number of Masters competing, and a
      > minimum of Y number of competitors overall." For now though we have
      > only Y to consider.
      > >
      > We'll also need to add to the SCA scores site a page listing the
      > winners of each of the Master's level tournaments. Theoretically
      > since this is SCA wide, it ought to be sorted by name within
      > rank. Each tournament will produce two winners. One for hand bow
      > and one for crossbow. A Midrealmer ought to be able to compete in an
      > Aethelmearc Master's tournament and vice versa. In fact such cross
      > border competition ought to be encouraged. The ranks will simply be
      > the number of tournaments won. Initially everyone listed will have
      > won only one tournament. Eventually one and then two and more
      > competitors will be listed in a higher rank for having won two such
      > tournaments. Then three, four, and so on.
      > >
      > We'll have to decide at what point a person is recognized as a Master
      > Of Archery. Two wins? Three? In armored combat winning one crown
      > tournament pretty much guarantees Knighthood. Also, what other
      > criteria ought to be considered? Do we give extra points for using
      > SCA period equipment, or for RR or IKAC scores in the top percentiles?
      > >
      > Jim Koch "Gladius The ALchemist"

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    • otlcp1@cablelynx.com
      I also would not like to see the number set so high as here in glean abhann i think it would be truly hard to get that number of archers at one event...its
      Message 127 of 127 , May 9 8:04 PM
        I also would not like to see the number set so high as here in glean
        abhann i think it would be truly hard to get that number of archers at one
        event...its hard enough to get people at weekly practices consistently
        much less 30 people for an event shoot. possibly twenty archers at most.
        > Gladius
        > I was just going with your top five. I would rather see top ten, if
        > possible.
        > The maximum number would be up to Baron Jonathas.
        > Crossbows.... In some kingdoms it might be hard to come up with ten
        > crossbows or
        > even five at an event. In the West there are only two archers that usually
        > shoot
        > target crossbows. And I think Caid also has only a very few target
        > crossbows as
        > well. Target crossbows are not common out here. Just combat archery
        > crossbows.
        > Based on my knowledge of the number of target archers in the West, it
        > would be
        > hard to come up with a minimum of 40 at most in-kingdom events. It would
        > be most
        > difficult for our archers in Oretha (Alaska) to field that many at an
        > event up
        > there. It could be done at Antir/West War and Greatern Western War for
        > handbows.
        > I understand the need for a minimum number for a base to award points. Is
        > there
        > any way to work around this?
        > Is there a way to work the mail-in competitions into this?
        > Jon
        > ________________________________
        > From: James Koch <alchem@...>
        > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wed, May 9, 2012 12:58:10 PM
        > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Masters Shoot. Was: The Fourth Peerage
        > Jon,
        > I'll defer to you in these matters. If you think the top five will do, we
        > can
        > go with the top five. That will be easier on the keeper of the scores.
        > I talked to Merlin today and he said 30 participants minimum for a "GAT".
        > I was
        > thinking 25 or 30 initially. If we get large turnouts we can always up
        > the
        > minimum at a later date. There is a problem. We also need a minimum for
        > the
        > crossbows since they will be scored separately. 30 handbows and or 10
        > crossbows? That would make 40 participants total for a GAT including both
        > handbows and crossbows. What are people's thoughts on this?
        > Once we decide what minimums we'll use, I'll contact Baron Jonathas and
        > we'll
        > discuss the format for the scores page. He will have to maintain the
        > scores, so
        > he'll have the final say on what gets posted and in what format.
        > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        >> At 11:49 AM 5/9/2012, you wrote:
        >>Archery competitions at existing inter-kingdom wars should qualify as
        >> GATs. (I
        >>do prefer the term "Schutzenfests", or Shooting Festivals. However, most
        >> people,
        >>even archers, would not know what that was.) For war competitions no
        >> special
        >>tournament needs to be set up, whatever is being shot becomes the GAT and
        >> the
        >>top five scores are sent to the SCA scores site. Any kingdom that has a
        >> large
        >>competition could submit the top five scores as GAT scores. This could
        >>encourage archers to shoot in more competitions. And this might encourage
        >>kingdoms to set up more major archery competitions because their archers
        >> would
        >>want a chance to submit more scores. This could work because no special
        >> GAT
        >>needs to be created and run, a tournment only needs the required minimum
        >> number
        >>of archers.
        >>Perhaps even the mail-in competitions such as: IKAC. RR. Winter
        >> Challenge. SSAC.
        >>etc could be used as well, with the scores from the top five archers in
        >> each
        >>kingdom submitted.
        >>Baron Jonathas should be contacted about the possibility of setting up a
        >> page
        >>for this on the SCA scores site.
        >>From: James Koch <alchem@...>
        >>To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        >>Sent: Tue, May 8, 2012 11:15:05 PM
        >>Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Masters Shoot. Was: The Fourth Peerage
        >>Gentlemen & Ladies,
        >>Sir Jon and others have made good points
        >>regarding the problems we'll likely encounter
        >>with any suggestion of an archery peerage or
        >>pre-peerage at this time. So, no Masters of any
        >>sort and no White Hats. In any case, discussing
        >>a possible future peerage is putting the cart
        >>before the horse. For the time being we ought to
        >>limit our discussion to the proposed new
        >>tournaments themselves. We can go back to
        >>considering a possible future 4th Peerage once we
        >>have the tools necessary to choose members.
        >>I personally like the idea of calling the
        >>competitions "Grand Tournaments Of Archery",
        >>Grand Archery Tournaments "GATs"", or
        >>"Schutzenfests". Merlin and I shall sponsor one
        >>here in the Midrealm in the Northern Oaken
        >>(Northeastern) region. Perhaps as soon as this
        >>Fall. These names do not in any way imply that
        >>these tournaments are being used as one of
        >>several criteria for eventually selecting
        >>(whatever we eventually decide to call them
        >>(Schützenkönig?)). Each kingdom can use a
        >>standard name for their tournaments or create their own.
        >>For a tournament to be considered a "Grand
        >>Tournament" it has to meet at least one simple
        >>standard. It has to field a certain minimum number of competitors.
        >>This evening I had a stroke of genius. Suppose
        >>for the sake of argument we initially set the
        >>minimum number of Grand Tournament competitors at
        >>25. Now suppose we consider an imaginary
        >>tournament in which 30 people actually
        >>participate. This means we have a first place
        >>winner who beat 29 others. That individual has a
        >>placing of 1 and a score of 29. The second place
        >>competitor has a placing of 2 and a score of
        >>28. And so on and so forth down to the fifth
        >>place competitor who has a placing of 5 and a
        >>score of 25. These scores will be submitted to
        >>the Keeper Of The Scores for posting on the web
        >>site. For the sake of simplicity we won't record
        >>scores of 25 or less. So each person who
        >>competes in a Grand Tournament and scores above
        >>the minimum we have set will have a ranking and a
        >>posted score. Over time as more scores are
        >>submitted, the web site can display the scores
        >>and compute the ranks in a variety of ways. We
        >>can display a competitor's running average rank,
        >>most recent three tournament placing rank,
        >>running total score, recent score, recent average
        >>score, total number of tournaments recorded, & etc.....
        >>Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"

        Kirby Campbell
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