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Re: [SCA-Archery] Appropriate field points for target

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  • Ld.blackmoon
    greetings from many posts on different lists I would say that , the reality is that ( using 3 rivers as an example ) the long and short bodkins are not
    Message 1 of 13 , May 1, 2012
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      greetings
       
      from many posts on different lists I would say that  , the reality is that ( using 3 rivers as an example ) the long and short bodkins are not allowed on most ranges because the corners tend to tear up a lot of the targets used in the sca.
      however , the " ace classic  medieval points " ( round " mod-bods " ) are usually allowed ,but ( yes the proverbial but ) be prepared to spend more and lose more of them , as the hour glass shape tends to pull off the shafts a lot more often.
      also the price difference is steep, with ace points going for $10.95 a six pack, and only coming in 11/32. while " steel field points " go for $ 4.99 a 12 pack and come in 1/4 , 5/16 , 11/32 , 23/64 .
      and brass points  the other period ish look is a bit  more expensive at $13.50 or $15.50 a 12 pack ( depending on whether or not you get the screw on tips ) , coming in 11/32 , 23/64 , but still less expensive than the ace classics.
       
      so , if your doing the arrows  for an a& s project , the ace points may gain you some points, but most archers would use the extra money to get better equipment, or garb, or even buy the supplies to help them start making new arrows, or bows themselves. there used to even be some ( west kingdom I believe )  video's showing how to hand make your own bodkins in a forge : )  ahh found it ; )
       
      thing to do would be to check with the archery marshals in your area to see what tips they allow on their ranges,kingdom, regional, local, and any wars you may wish to attend .
       
      Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun .
      Arthur
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 8:10 PM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Appropriate field points for target

       

      Are there any types of field points that we can't use in the SCA? Are there regional variances?

      I ask because I was ordering some Ace "classic" points from 3 Rivers, and the guy told me "Now be careful, cuz some areas of the SCA don't like those kind of points, or bodkins, cuz they really tear up a target..."

      I can sort of see bodkins as maybe being a bit iffy (really? aren't we trying to be authentic?) But I always thought those Ace points were an old standard target tip from 'back in the day.' Was surprised he said that, so I thought I'd ask here.

      I am in West Kingdom by the way, and hope to shoot them at events.

      I'll try to load a pic of Ace "classic" points (if I can figure it out), so you'll know what I'm going on about...

      Thanks,
      Aelric

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    • aelric_southlake
      Thanks Arthur, yeah, I ll have to track down some locals who might know the specific rules around here...
      Message 2 of 13 , May 1, 2012
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        Thanks Arthur, yeah, I'll have to track down some locals who might know the specific rules around here...
      • bluecat@neo.rr.com
        I agree with Arthur. The Ace Classic Medieval Points are nice- but you will pay more when you lose them. Frankly- I have never heard of anyone rejecting them
        Message 3 of 13 , May 2, 2012
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          I agree with Arthur. The Ace Classic Medieval Points are nice- but you will pay more when you lose them.
          Frankly- I have never heard of anyone rejecting them at the range. I doubt they would tear up a target any
          more than any other common point. Besides, tearing up targets is what we do.

          Dirk
        • James W
          It is not so much the tearing up of the target. It is the tearing up of the butt that is usually an issue. Targets are cheap but a Saunders Matt is pretty
          Message 4 of 13 , May 2, 2012
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            It is not so much the tearing up of the target. It is the tearing up of the butt that is usually an issue. Targets are cheap but a Saunders Matt is pretty expensive and you want to get more than a few practises out of them before having to replace them.

            One solution is to bring your own butt. This is what one of our crossbowman does. Although he is just shooting standard field points, he is capable of putting six in the inner gold at 20 yards. Do this over and over and the center of the butt goes pretty quick. As such, he brings his own butt and material to restuff the center. He also brings colour photocopies of the target face center (and, yes, they are scaled properly) to replace the center of the target face.

            James

            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "bluecat@..." <bluecat@...> wrote:
            >
            > I agree with Arthur. The Ace Classic Medieval Points are nice- but you will pay more when you lose them.
            > Frankly- I have never heard of anyone rejecting them at the range. I doubt they would tear up a target any
            > more than any other common point. Besides, tearing up targets is what we do.
            >
            > Dirk
            >
          • Bill Tait
            The main problems I have had with the ACE Classic points are: 1. Loss. The hourglass shape tends to be held more firmly by (non-haybale) backstops. 2. Damage
            Message 5 of 13 , May 2, 2012
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              The main problems I have had with the ACE Classic points are:

              1. Loss. The hourglass shape tends to be held more firmly by (non-haybale) backstops.
              2. Damage to backstops. Our range uses butts made from soundproofing board. These points will remove huge pieces of the material due to the shape.
              3. Blood loss. The points are very sharp, and I have jabbed my bowhand index finger a number of times during a speed round. :)

              William Arwemakere

              On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 8:56 AM, bluecat@... <bluecat@...> wrote:
               

              I agree with Arthur. The Ace Classic Medieval Points are nice- but you will pay more when you lose them.
              Frankly- I have never heard of anyone rejecting them at the range. I doubt they would tear up a target any
              more than any other common point. Besides, tearing up targets is what we do.

              Dirk


            • Michael Scherrer
              I had shoot said points into Saunders butts. Out of respect to the owners of said butt, never did it again. The points don t cut the butt fibber, but did have
              Message 6 of 13 , May 2, 2012
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                I had shoot said points into Saunders butts.
                Out of respect to the owners of said butt, never did it again.
                The points don't cut the butt fibber, but did have a tendency
                to pull said fibbers out of the butt when pulling the arrows.
                The safety netting behind the butts did not really slow the arrows
                either, sent them right threw it.  Might have been an old net...
                Thomas
                 

                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                From: jameswolfden@...
                Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 17:03:38 +0000
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Appropriate field points for target

                 
                It is not so much the tearing up of the target. It is the tearing up of the butt that is usually an issue. Targets are cheap but a Saunders Matt is pretty expensive and you want to get more than a few practises out of them before having to replace them.

                One solution is to bring your own butt. This is what one of our crossbowman does. Although he is just shooting standard field points, he is capable of putting six in the inner gold at 20 yards. Do this over and over and the center of the butt goes pretty quick. As such, he brings his own butt and material to restuff the center. He also brings colour photocopies of the target face center (and, yes, they are scaled properly) to replace the center of the target face.

                James

                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "bluecat@..." <bluecat@...> wrote:
                >
                > I agree with Arthur. The Ace Classic Medieval Points are nice- but you will pay more when you lose them.
                > Frankly- I have never heard of anyone rejecting them at the range. I doubt they would tear up a target any
                > more than any other common point. Besides, tearing up targets is what we do.
                >
                > Dirk
                >


              • The Greys
                Aelric, I have used the Ace points here in Atlantia, no issues. I don t find them any tougher on targets than the field tips as they are basically the same
                Message 7 of 13 , May 2, 2012
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                  Aelric,
                  I have used the Ace points here in Atlantia, no issues. I don't find them any tougher on targets than the field tips as they are basically the same diameter as field tips. OK, maybe a mm or so wider in diameter but nothing compared to a forged bodkin!

                  As for keeping them on that's a problem I've had with ALL my points, field tips, brass bullet screw ons and glue ons, Ace, etc. This is what I do. Number one NEVER, NEVER, NEVER shoot the center of a new Saunders mat. The centers are wrapped tighter than the outside edges. Saunders says they do that due to wear and the ONLY way to loosen the center is to wear out the outer rings to allow the centers to expand.

                  Second is how you make your arrows. I soak the points in alcohol then burn the excess off. This removes any machining oil residue. I then take a Dremel tool with a bur head and rough up the inside of the point. Just so a few metal chips fall out. When I taper the shaft I leave it rough. I then use Smooth On epoxy which dries flexible. It's the epoxy bowyers use to glue up their bows. Since I've gone through this process I no longer lose points in any target. Even wood!

                  Arthur - Thanks for the link. Great reference!

                  cog

                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "aelric_southlake" <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Are there any types of field points that we can't use in the SCA? Are there regional variances?
                  >
                  > I ask because I was ordering some Ace "classic" points from 3 Rivers, and the guy told me "Now be careful, cuz some areas of the SCA don't like those kind of points, or bodkins, cuz they really tear up a target..."
                  >
                  > I can sort of see bodkins as maybe being a bit iffy (really? aren't we trying to be authentic?) But I always thought those Ace points were an old standard target tip from 'back in the day.' Was surprised he said that, so I thought I'd ask here.
                  >
                  > I am in West Kingdom by the way, and hope to shoot them at events.
                  >
                  > I'll try to load a pic of Ace "classic" points (if I can figure it out), so you'll know what I'm going on about...
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Aelric
                  >
                • John Edgerton
                  I just rivet my points on. I use a thin wire brad and drill a matching hole through the point and shaft. Then I peen it over and then file it smooth. You
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 2, 2012
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                    I just rivet my points on.  I use a thin wire brad and drill a matching hole through the point and shaft.  Then I peen it over and then file it smooth.  You have to punch the rivet/brad out to remove the point from the shaft. Never lost a point this way.

                    Jon


                    From: The Greys <cogworks@...>
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, May 2, 2012 1:28:33 PM
                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Appropriate field points for target

                     

                    Aelric,
                    I have used the Ace points here in Atlantia, no issues. I don't find them any tougher on targets than the field tips as they are basically the same diameter as field tips. OK, maybe a mm or so wider in diameter but nothing compared to a forged bodkin!

                    As for keeping them on that's a problem I've had with ALL my points, field tips, brass bullet screw ons and glue ons, Ace, etc. This is what I do. Number one NEVER, NEVER, NEVER shoot the center of a new Saunders mat. The centers are wrapped tighter than the outside edges. Saunders says they do that due to wear and the ONLY way to loosen the center is to wear out the outer rings to allow the centers to expand.

                    Second is how you make your arrows. I soak the points in alcohol then burn the excess off. This removes any machining oil residue. I then take a Dremel tool with a bur head and rough up the inside of the point. Just so a few metal chips fall out. When I taper the shaft I leave it rough. I then use Smooth On epoxy which dries flexible. It's the epoxy bowyers use to glue up their bows. Since I've gone through this process I no longer lose points in any target. Even wood!

                    Arthur - Thanks for the link. Great reference!

                    cog

                  • Carl West
                    When Ld.blackmoon put fingers to keys it was 5/1/12 10:42 PM... ... That s me. I m an Easterner, start to finish. - Fritz -- Carl West aka Frydherik Eysenkopf,
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 2, 2012
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                      When Ld.blackmoon put fingers to keys it was 5/1/12 10:42 PM...

                      > ... there used to even be some ( west
                      > kingdom I believe ) video's showing how to hand make your own bodkins in
                      > a forge : ) ahh found it ; )
                      > http://carl.west.home.comcast.net/~carl.west/archerypage.html


                      That's me.
                      I'm an Easterner, start to finish.

                      - Fritz

                      --

                      Carl West aka Frydherik Eysenkopf, Sagg, &c.
                      http://prospecthillforge.com : The Blacksmithing Classroom
                      http://carl.west.home.comcast.net
                      Reduce. Reuse. Recover. Refurbish. Repair. Repurpose. Recycle.
                    • Edward deWitt
                      Aelric,  I have shot with archers using the ACE points.  If the target frame is made of wood, there was some damage.  The tips are so much sharper than
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 2, 2012
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                        Aelric,  I have shot with archers using the ACE points.  If the target frame is made of wood, there was some damage.  The tips are so much sharper than target tips and bullets that they seem to penetrate deeper into the wood.  Then trying to pull them out and not snap the arrow shaft slows things down.  you have to gradually work them out, or dig them out with a knife or screwdriver, or go find a pair of pliers.  I do allow them, but don't like what they do.
                        A new one a few weeks ago was an archer using a 110lb. warbow, shooting a flat, diamond shaped tip similar to many museum examples.  One arrow did hit the target frame (1"x3" pine).  Luckily it only splintered the edge off.  he wasn't hitting much of anything that day.  I did refuse the use of 1 1/2" -2" bodkin tipped arrows.

                        Eduard deWitte
                        Atlantia

                        From: aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...>
                        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 9:10 PM
                        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Appropriate field points for target

                         
                        Are there any types of field points that we can't use in the SCA? Are there regional variances?

                        I ask because I was ordering some Ace "classic" points from 3 Rivers, and the guy told me "Now be careful, cuz some areas of the SCA don't like those kind of points, or bodkins, cuz they really tear up a target..."

                        I can sort of see bodkins as maybe being a bit iffy (really? aren't we trying to be authentic?) But I always thought those Ace points were an old standard target tip from 'back in the day.' Was surprised he said that, so I thought I'd ask here.

                        I am in West Kingdom by the way, and hope to shoot them at events.

                        I'll try to load a pic of Ace "classic" points (if I can figure it out), so you'll know what I'm going on about...

                        Thanks,
                        Aelric



                      • George Bottorf
                        Greetings. I have used the real minibods. Got them from England some years back. I really liked them! I have never had any problem with them coming off. I use
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 3, 2012
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                          Greetings. I have used the real minibods. Got them from England some years back. I really liked them! I have never had any problem with them coming off. I use JBWeld epoxy for all point installs. Even screw-in adapters. Some fitment is required due to a somewhat smaller socket on some designs. I use emery cloth rolled into cone to fit in socket and a few turns to rough up inside. Followed by a de-greasing using your favorite product. A short squirt of brake cleaning spray or acetone, etc. will do. A good non oily residue product is neeeded. I have very seldom had any point come unstuck using this method. Except for slaming into steel or concrete!! ZERO penetration!! OOPS! It happens to everybody over time! No big deal to install points. Just clean points, fit to shaft as required, put large dab of throughly mixed epoxy on tip of shaft, put point on with twisting motion, seat down with tap to tip of pointed shaft, to really secure joint, make sure point is really on tight. Wipe off any epoxy from joint seam. Stand up w/point down for overnight so epoxy may cure properly.  Then just take them out and shoot 'em! Enjoy. Later. YIS, Abner.
                        • Siegfried
                          Sir Jon, How do you keep the point tight in this case? The concept is REALLY intriguing to me. But it would seem to me, that over time with repeated impact,
                          Message 12 of 13 , May 4, 2012
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                            Sir Jon, How do you keep the point 'tight' in this case? The concept is
                            REALLY intriguing to me.

                            But it would seem to me, that over time with repeated impact, and
                            pulling from the target ... that the brad would start to wear it's hole
                            through the wood slightly.

                            And that therefore over time, the head would get a hair 'wobbly'. Which
                            wouldn't be good at all for accuracy.

                            Siegfried


                            On 5/2/12 6:22 PM, John Edgerton wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > I just rivet my points on. I use a thin wire brad and drill a matching
                            > hole through the point and shaft. Then I peen it over and then file it
                            > smooth. You have to punch the rivet/brad out to remove the point from
                            > the shaft. Never lost a point this way.
                            >
                            > Jon


                            --
                            Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                            http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
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