Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SCA-Archery] Nock points, arrow angle, and some other stuff...

Expand Messages
  • Guy Taylor
    I have never seen archeological or historical evidence for nocking points on the string so can t answer to their use in past history. But I can say that about
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 8, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      I have never seen archeological or historical evidence for nocking points on the string so can't answer to their use in past history. But I can say that about 99% of the primitive archers I hang out with use them. Rather than the brass nock points we usually use dental floss knotted and wrapped about the string, sometimes reinforced with a drop of glue.
      When the nocking point is properly located on the string it will almost always be nock high from horizontal. I say almost but I have never seen a properly tuned traditional bow with the arrow nocked horizontal. I'm just taking into considreation that it may happen with some set ups.
      Why is it set like that? Beats me, I'm not a physicist. It just works better and gives better arrow flight without porpoiseing.
       
      Guy 

      The new Greenman Archery website




      From: aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...>
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, February 8, 2012 2:51:50 PM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Nock points, arrow angle, and some other stuff...

       

      Hey there, I was shooting my modern recurve at the local indoor archery range the other day, and the guy who runs the place was surprised to see that I don't use a nock point. (one of those little brass crimp-on deals)

      I told him, "well, you know me, I'm trying to do this as primitively as possible, etc. etc." That is, he knows I'm the guy who more often brings his medieval self longbow there and shoots with self nocked arrows, and the whole nine yards.

      His response was, "Y'know, those medieval guys used nock points, OR SUMTHIN', too - they wanted consistency just as much as we do" And proceeded to insist that I let him put a nock point on my recurve's string.

      I let him, cuz it seemed important to him, and I can always take it off, ha ha ha - but it led to a number of questions in my mind.

      1)Did indeed medieval/ ancient/ early European selfbow shooting type folks use some kind of mark on their string - be it what we use now-a-days, or a bit of string, or something?

      2) If so, what WOULD be the period thing to put on the string? My persona, as far as that goes, is Anglo-Saxon/ Generic "Dark Ages" Guy, and my bow is a very simple hickory self longbow, no shelf (from Rudderbows).

      Then, the next questions stem from the fact that when he put said nock point on my recurve string, he set it so that the nock of my arrow would sit markedly higher than how I've always shot (the point of the arrow kind of facing down, as it were). He said that's how it's supposed to be. I've always (since childhood) simply put the arrow perfectly perpendicualr to the bow string. I am self-taught in archery, which is a fancy way of saying I have no idea what I'm doing. He didn't know the physics of it, but insisted it'd help my shooting. So...

      3/4) Is that true, and why? What does that rear-higher angle achive, and how does it do it? (please understand I'm not suggesting it's wrong, I'm just looking to understand)

      5) Is that appropriate for the longbow too?

      Thanks for reading all this,

      Aelric,
      West Kingdom

    • The Greys
      Aelric, Here s a simple answer to your question about nock point placement. If your arrows porpoise up and down in flight, your nock point is in the wrong
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Aelric,
        Here's a simple answer to your question about nock point placement. If your arrows porpoise up and down in flight, your nock point is in the wrong place. If your arrows swim, waggle left and right, your technique is bad. (Number one thing folks do is pull their release hand away from their face upon release thereby pulling the back of the arrow to one side.) As others have said here, when placing your nock point you typically start with it slightly higher than needed, i.e. the diameter of your arrow shafts high. Then you slowly move the point down until the arrows stop porpoising. I find for my recurves and longbows (yes, it works for both) that the final nocking point is usually one half the diameter of the arrow shaft high. Putting nock points such that the arrow is perpendicular to the string is very common and wrong for consistency.

        Now as for a period nocking point, I think it goes without saying our Medieval brethren did not have metal clips with rubber inserts. I've used a different colored string wrapped several times then coated with a dab of glue. I have this on my horse bow. Because this bow, and my ELB, shoot of the hand the next thing for consistency is to grip the bow in exactly the same spot each time thereby having your "arrow rest" (your hand) in the same spot each time maintaining the relationship between arrow rest and nocking point.

        With all this done, the comment was made that your fletches clear the arrow rest. If you shoot a lot ultimately you will see the wear on your arrow rest. i.e. if your arrow rest plate is fur lined, the fur will be worn off over time. On my favorite longbow even the wood at the edge of the rest is showing signs of wear. Fletches seem nice and soft and cuddly (?), but they are really quite vicious. How many on the list have had a fletch go into their hand? I make my own arrows and ALWAYS put a drop of glue on the leading edge of each fletch. This helps to keep the fletch from getting snagged on anything and causing problems.

        cog



        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "aelric_southlake" <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hey there, I was shooting my modern recurve at the local indoor archery range the other day, and the guy who runs the place was surprised to see that I don't use a nock point. (one of those little brass crimp-on deals)
        >
        > I told him, "well, you know me, I'm trying to do this as primitively as possible, etc. etc." That is, he knows I'm the guy who more often brings his medieval self longbow there and shoots with self nocked arrows, and the whole nine yards.
        >
        > His response was, "Y'know, those medieval guys used nock points, OR SUMTHIN', too - they wanted consistency just as much as we do" And proceeded to insist that I let him put a nock point on my recurve's string.
        >
        > I let him, cuz it seemed important to him, and I can always take it off, ha ha ha - but it led to a number of questions in my mind.
        >
        > 1)Did indeed medieval/ ancient/ early European selfbow shooting type folks use some kind of mark on their string - be it what we use now-a-days, or a bit of string, or something?
        >
        > 2) If so, what WOULD be the period thing to put on the string? My persona, as far as that goes, is Anglo-Saxon/ Generic "Dark Ages" Guy, and my bow is a very simple hickory self longbow, no shelf (from Rudderbows).
        >
        > Then, the next questions stem from the fact that when he put said nock point on my recurve string, he set it so that the nock of my arrow would sit markedly higher than how I've always shot (the point of the arrow kind of facing down, as it were). He said that's how it's supposed to be. I've always (since childhood) simply put the arrow perfectly perpendicualr to the bow string. I am self-taught in archery, which is a fancy way of saying I have no idea what I'm doing. He didn't know the physics of it, but insisted it'd help my shooting. So...
        >
        > 3/4) Is that true, and why? What does that rear-higher angle achive, and how does it do it? (please understand I'm not suggesting it's wrong, I'm just looking to understand)
        >
        > 5) Is that appropriate for the longbow too?
        >
        > Thanks for reading all this,
        >
        > Aelric,
        > West Kingdom
        >
      • logantheboweyder
        Paper Tuning: By means of a stand, secure a sheet of paper about 2 yards downrange, and shoot an arrow through the paper at eye height. You will be able to see
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Paper Tuning:

          By means of a stand, secure a sheet of paper about 2 yards downrange, and shoot an arrow through the paper at eye height.

          You will be able to see from the tear whether the arrow flew through the paper nock-high, straight, or tip high, by the fletch-tears vs. the shaft tear. This works as a fine-tuning for your nock indicator adjustment, after getting rid of visible porpoising.

          Gervase Markham writes about putting serving on the string in The Art of Archerie, and indicates that he uses it to increase the size of the string to the size of the arrow nocks. This results in the serving showing clearly your nock point, but the extra tidbit of string makes the nocking point more precise on each shot, and allows you to nock your arrow more quickly. This exact precision is lost if you are shooting without a shelf; the tolerance for hand-placement imprecision is as large as the tolerance for arrow placement imprecision.

          Logan

          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "The Greys" <cogworks@...> wrote:
          >
          > Aelric,
          > Here's a simple answer to your question about nock point placement. If your arrows porpoise up and down in flight, your nock point is in the wrong place. ...
          >
          > cog
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "aelric_southlake" <magnetcoil@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hey there, I was shooting my modern recurve at the local indoor archery range the other day, and the guy who runs the place was surprised to see that I don't use a nock point. (one of those little brass crimp-on deals)
          > >
          > > I told him, "well, you know me, I'm trying to do this as primitively as possible, etc. etc." That is, he knows I'm the guy who more often brings his medieval self longbow there and shoots with self nocked arrows, and the whole nine yards.
          > >
          > > His response was, "Y'know, those medieval guys used nock points, OR SUMTHIN', too - they wanted consistency just as much as we do" And proceeded to insist that I let him put a nock point on my recurve's string.
          > >
          > > I let him, cuz it seemed important to him, and I can always take it off, ha ha ha - but it led to a number of questions in my mind.
          > >
          > > 1)Did indeed medieval/ ancient/ early European selfbow shooting type folks use some kind of mark on their string - be it what we use now-a-days, or a bit of string, or something?
          > >
          > > 2) If so, what WOULD be the period thing to put on the string? My persona, as far as that goes, is Anglo-Saxon/ Generic "Dark Ages" Guy, and my bow is a very simple hickory self longbow, no shelf (from Rudderbows).
          > >
          > > Then, the next questions stem from the fact that when he put said nock point on my recurve string, he set it so that the nock of my arrow would sit markedly higher than how I've always shot (the point of the arrow kind of facing down, as it were). He said that's how it's supposed to be. I've always (since childhood) simply put the arrow perfectly perpendicualr to the bow string. I am self-taught in archery, which is a fancy way of saying I have no idea what I'm doing. He didn't know the physics of it, but insisted it'd help my shooting. So...
          > >
          > > 3/4) Is that true, and why? What does that rear-higher angle achive, and how does it do it? (please understand I'm not suggesting it's wrong, I'm just looking to understand)
          > >
          > > 5) Is that appropriate for the longbow too?
          > >
          > > Thanks for reading all this,
          > >
          > > Aelric,
          > > West Kingdom
          > >
          >
        • Taslen
          Logan,   Thanks so much for this fine tuning tip I had not heard this one!   Gaelen O Gradaigh Midrealm archery marshal of the field
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Logan,
             
            Thanks so much for this fine tuning tip I had not heard this one!
             
            Gaelen O'Gradaigh
            Midrealm archery marshal of the field

            From: logantheboweyder <logantheboweyder@...>
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 11:00 AM
            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Nock points, arrow angle, and some other stuff...

             
            Paper Tuning:

            By means of a stand, secure a sheet of paper about 2 yards downrange, and shoot an arrow through the paper at eye height.

            You will be able to see from the tear whether the arrow flew through the paper nock-high, straight, or tip high, by the fletch-tears vs. the shaft tear. This works as a fine-tuning for your nock indicator adjustment, after getting rid of visible porpoising.

            Gervase Markham writes about putting serving on the string in The Art of Archerie, and indicates that he uses it to increase the size of the string to the size of the arrow nocks. This results in the serving showing clearly your nock point, but the extra tidbit of string makes the nocking point more precise on each shot, and allows you to nock your arrow more quickly. This exact precision is lost if you are shooting without a shelf; the tolerance for hand-placement imprecision is as large as the tolerance for arrow placement imprecision.

            Logan

            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "The Greys" <cogworks@...> wrote:
            >
            > Aelric,
            > Here's a simple answer to your question about nock point placement. If your arrows porpoise up and down in flight, your nock point is in the wrong place. ...
            >
            > cog
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "aelric_southlake" <magnetcoil@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hey there, I was shooting my modern recurve at the local indoor archery range the other day, and the guy who runs the place was surprised to see that I don't use a nock point. (one of those little brass crimp-on deals)
            > >
            > > I told him, "well, you know me, I'm trying to do this as primitively as possible, etc. etc." That is, he knows I'm the guy who more often brings his medieval self longbow there and shoots with self nocked arrows, and the whole nine yards.
            > >
            > > His response was, "Y'know, those medieval guys used nock points, OR SUMTHIN', too - they wanted consistency just as much as we do" And proceeded to insist that I let him put a nock point on my recurve's string.
            > >
            > > I let him, cuz it seemed important to him, and I can always take it off, ha ha ha - but it led to a number of questions in my mind.
            > >
            > > 1)Did indeed medieval/ ancient/ early European selfbow shooting type folks use some kind of mark on their string - be it what we use now-a-days, or a bit of string, or something?
            > >
            > > 2) If so, what WOULD be the period thing to put on the string? My persona, as far as that goes, is Anglo-Saxon/ Generic "Dark Ages" Guy, and my bow is a very simple hickory self longbow, no shelf (from Rudderbows).
            > >
            > > Then, the next questions stem from the fact that when he put said nock point on my recurve string, he set it so that the nock of my arrow would sit markedly higher than how I've always shot (the point of the arrow kind of facing down, as it were). He said that's how it's supposed to be. I've always (since childhood) simply put the arrow perfectly perpendicualr to the bow string. I am self-taught in archery, which is a fancy way of saying I have no idea what I'm doing. He didn't know the physics of it, but insisted it'd help my shooting. So...
            > >
            > > 3/4) Is that true, and why? What does that rear-higher angle achive, and how does it do it? (please understand I'm not suggesting it's wrong, I'm just looking to understand)
            > >
            > > 5) Is that appropriate for the longbow too?
            > >
            > > Thanks for reading all this,
            > >
            > > Aelric,
            > > West Kingdom
            > >
            >



          • Bill Tait
            The thing with paper tuning is that it will tell you what the arrows are doing _at_ the location of the paper, nothing more. It s a good starting point, but
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              The thing with paper tuning is that it will tell you what the arrows are doing _at_ the location of the paper, nothing more. It's a good starting point, but you do want to have a vertical tear, not a pinhole. (Vertical tear with the fletched end high).

              A left / right tear may indicated poor technique, OR improperly spined arrows. That said, watch some high-speed footage of an arrow on release. It will oscillate for a good part of its flight, sometimes even all the way to the target.


              I have asked a number of my recurve shooting friends, and none of them paper tune. A quick search of the archerytalk forum suggests that the people who do paper tune use it _only_ as a starting point.

              William

              On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Taslen <taslen2000@...> wrote:
               

              Logan,
               
              Thanks so much for this fine tuning tip I had not heard this one!
               
              Gaelen O'Gradaigh
              Midrealm archery marshal of the field

              From: logantheboweyder <logantheboweyder@...>
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 11:00 AM
              Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Nock points, arrow angle, and some other stuff...

               
              Paper Tuning:

              By means of a stand, secure a sheet of paper about 2 yards downrange, and shoot an arrow through the paper at eye height.

              You will be able to see from the tear whether the arrow flew through the paper nock-high, straight, or tip high, by the fletch-tears vs. the shaft tear. This works as a fine-tuning for your nock indicator adjustment, after getting rid of visible porpoising.

              Gervase Markham writes about putting serving on the string in The Art of Archerie, and indicates that he uses it to increase the size of the string to the size of the arrow nocks. This results in the serving showing clearly your nock point, but the extra tidbit of string makes the nocking point more precise on each shot, and allows you to nock your arrow more quickly. This exact precision is lost if you are shooting without a shelf; the tolerance for hand-placement imprecision is as large as the tolerance for arrow placement imprecision.

              Logan

              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "The Greys" <cogworks@...> wrote:
              >
              > Aelric,
              > Here's a simple answer to your question about nock point placement. If your arrows porpoise up and down in flight, your nock point is in the wrong place. ...
              >
              > cog
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "aelric_southlake" <magnetcoil@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hey there, I was shooting my modern recurve at the local indoor archery range the other day, and the guy who runs the place was surprised to see that I don't use a nock point. (one of those little brass crimp-on deals)
              > >
              > > I told him, "well, you know me, I'm trying to do this as primitively as possible, etc. etc." That is, he knows I'm the guy who more often brings his medieval self longbow there and shoots with self nocked arrows, and the whole nine yards.
              > >
              > > His response was, "Y'know, those medieval guys used nock points, OR SUMTHIN', too - they wanted consistency just as much as we do" And proceeded to insist that I let him put a nock point on my recurve's string.
              > >
              > > I let him, cuz it seemed important to him, and I can always take it off, ha ha ha - but it led to a number of questions in my mind.
              > >
              > > 1)Did indeed medieval/ ancient/ early European selfbow shooting type folks use some kind of mark on their string - be it what we use now-a-days, or a bit of string, or something?
              > >
              > > 2) If so, what WOULD be the period thing to put on the string? My persona, as far as that goes, is Anglo-Saxon/ Generic "Dark Ages" Guy, and my bow is a very simple hickory self longbow, no shelf (from Rudderbows).
              > >
              > > Then, the next questions stem from the fact that when he put said nock point on my recurve string, he set it so that the nock of my arrow would sit markedly higher than how I've always shot (the point of the arrow kind of facing down, as it were). He said that's how it's supposed to be. I've always (since childhood) simply put the arrow perfectly perpendicualr to the bow string. I am self-taught in archery, which is a fancy way of saying I have no idea what I'm doing. He didn't know the physics of it, but insisted it'd help my shooting. So...
              > >
              > > 3/4) Is that true, and why? What does that rear-higher angle achive, and how does it do it? (please understand I'm not suggesting it's wrong, I'm just looking to understand)
              > >
              > > 5) Is that appropriate for the longbow too?
              > >
              > > Thanks for reading all this,
              > >
              > > Aelric,
              > > West Kingdom
              > >
              >




            • Sam Cohen
              So if I see that my arrow is shooting nock high (for example) which way do I move the nock point? ... From: Bill Tait To:
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                So if I see that my arrow is shooting nock high (for example) which way do I move the nock point?


                From: "Bill Tait" <arwemakere@...>
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 12:57:59 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Nock points, arrow angle, and some other stuff...

                 

                The thing with paper tuning is that it will tell you what the arrows are doing _at_ the location of the paper, nothing more. It's a good starting point, but you do want to have a vertical tear, not a pinhole. (Vertical tear with the fletched end high).


                A left / right tear may indicated poor technique, OR improperly spined arrows. That said, watch some high-speed footage of an arrow on release. It will oscillate for a good part of its flight, sometimes even all the way to the target.


                I have asked a number of my recurve shooting friends, and none of them paper tune. A quick search of the archerytalk forum suggests that the people who do paper tune use it _only_ as a starting point.

                William

                On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Taslen <taslen2000@...> wrote:
                 

                Logan,
                 
                Thanks so much for this fine tuning tip I had not heard this one!
                 
                Gaelen O'Gradaigh
                Midrealm archery marshal of the field

                From: logantheboweyder <logantheboweyder@...>
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 11:00 AM
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Nock points, arrow angle, and some other stuff...

                 
                Paper Tuning:

                By means of a stand, secure a sheet of paper about 2 yards downrange, and shoot an arrow through the paper at eye height.

                You will be able to see from the tear whether the arrow flew through the paper nock-high, straight, or tip high, by the fletch-tears vs. the shaft tear. This works as a fine-tuning for your nock indicator adjustment, after getting rid of visible porpoising.

                Gervase Markham writes about putting serving on the string in The Art of Archerie, and indicates that he uses it to increase the size of the string to the size of the arrow nocks. This results in the serving showing clearly your nock point, but the extra tidbit of string makes the nocking point more precise on each shot, and allows you to nock your arrow more quickly. This exact precision is lost if you are shooting without a shelf; the tolerance for hand-placement imprecision is as large as the tolerance for arrow placement imprecision.

                Logan

                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "The Greys" <cogworks@...> wrote:
                >
                > Aelric,
                > Here's a simple answer to your question about nock point placement. If your arrows porpoise up and down in flight, your nock point is in the wrong place. ...
                >
                > cog
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "aelric_southlake" <magnetcoil@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hey there, I was shooting my modern recurve at the local indoor archery range the other day, and the guy who runs the place was surprised to see that I don't use a nock point. (one of those little brass crimp-on deals)
                > >
                > > I told him, "well, you know me, I'm trying to do this as primitively as possible, etc. etc." That is, he knows I'm the guy who more often brings his medieval self longbow there and shoots with self nocked arrows, and the whole nine yards.
                > >
                > > His response was, "Y'know, those medieval guys used nock points, OR SUMTHIN', too - they wanted consistency just as much as we do" And proceeded to insist that I let him put a nock point on my recurve's string.
                > >
                > > I let him, cuz it seemed important to him, and I can always take it off, ha ha ha - but it led to a number of questions in my mind.
                > >
                > > 1)Did indeed medieval/ ancient/ early European selfbow shooting type folks use some kind of mark on their string - be it what we use now-a-days, or a bit of string, or something?
                > >
                > > 2) If so, what WOULD be the period thing to put on the string? My persona, as far as that goes, is Anglo-Saxon/ Generic "Dark Ages" Guy, and my bow is a very simple hickory self longbow, no shelf (from Rudderbows).
                > >
                > > Then, the next questions stem from the fact that when he put said nock point on my recurve string, he set it so that the nock of my arrow would sit markedly higher than how I've always shot (the point of the arrow kind of facing down, as it were). He said that's how it's supposed to be. I've always (since childhood) simply put the arrow perfectly perpendicualr to the bow string. I am self-taught in archery, which is a fancy way of saying I have no idea what I'm doing. He didn't know the physics of it, but insisted it'd help my shooting. So...
                > >
                > > 3/4) Is that true, and why? What does that rear-higher angle achive, and how does it do it? (please understand I'm not suggesting it's wrong, I'm just looking to understand)
                > >
                > > 5) Is that appropriate for the longbow too?
                > >
                > > Thanks for reading all this,
                > >
                > > Aelric,
                > > West Kingdom
                > >
                >




              • Bill Tait
                Down.
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Down.

                  On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Sam Cohen <saintelmo.1@...> wrote:
                   

                  So if I see that my arrow is shooting nock high (for example) which way do I move the nock point?


                  From: "Bill Tait" <arwemakere@...>
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 12:57:59 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Nock points, arrow angle, and some other stuff...


                   

                  The thing with paper tuning is that it will tell you what the arrows are doing _at_ the location of the paper, nothing more. It's a good starting point, but you do want to have a vertical tear, not a pinhole. (Vertical tear with the fletched end high).


                  A left / right tear may indicated poor technique, OR improperly spined arrows. That said, watch some high-speed footage of an arrow on release. It will oscillate for a good part of its flight, sometimes even all the way to the target.


                  I have asked a number of my recurve shooting friends, and none of them paper tune. A quick search of the archerytalk forum suggests that the people who do paper tune use it _only_ as a starting point.

                  William

                  On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Taslen <taslen2000@...> wrote:
                   

                  Logan,
                   
                  Thanks so much for this fine tuning tip I had not heard this one!
                   
                  Gaelen O'Gradaigh
                  Midrealm archery marshal of the field

                  From: logantheboweyder <logantheboweyder@...>
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 11:00 AM
                  Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Nock points, arrow angle, and some other stuff...

                   
                  Paper Tuning:

                  By means of a stand, secure a sheet of paper about 2 yards downrange, and shoot an arrow through the paper at eye height.

                  You will be able to see from the tear whether the arrow flew through the paper nock-high, straight, or tip high, by the fletch-tears vs. the shaft tear. This works as a fine-tuning for your nock indicator adjustment, after getting rid of visible porpoising.

                  Gervase Markham writes about putting serving on the string in The Art of Archerie, and indicates that he uses it to increase the size of the string to the size of the arrow nocks. This results in the serving showing clearly your nock point, but the extra tidbit of string makes the nocking point more precise on each shot, and allows you to nock your arrow more quickly. This exact precision is lost if you are shooting without a shelf; the tolerance for hand-placement imprecision is as large as the tolerance for arrow placement imprecision.

                  Logan

                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "The Greys" <cogworks@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Aelric,
                  > Here's a simple answer to your question about nock point placement. If your arrows porpoise up and down in flight, your nock point is in the wrong place. ...
                  >
                  > cog
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "aelric_southlake" <magnetcoil@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hey there, I was shooting my modern recurve at the local indoor archery range the other day, and the guy who runs the place was surprised to see that I don't use a nock point. (one of those little brass crimp-on deals)
                  > >
                  > > I told him, "well, you know me, I'm trying to do this as primitively as possible, etc. etc." That is, he knows I'm the guy who more often brings his medieval self longbow there and shoots with self nocked arrows, and the whole nine yards.
                  > >
                  > > His response was, "Y'know, those medieval guys used nock points, OR SUMTHIN', too - they wanted consistency just as much as we do" And proceeded to insist that I let him put a nock point on my recurve's string.
                  > >
                  > > I let him, cuz it seemed important to him, and I can always take it off, ha ha ha - but it led to a number of questions in my mind.
                  > >
                  > > 1)Did indeed medieval/ ancient/ early European selfbow shooting type folks use some kind of mark on their string - be it what we use now-a-days, or a bit of string, or something?
                  > >
                  > > 2) If so, what WOULD be the period thing to put on the string? My persona, as far as that goes, is Anglo-Saxon/ Generic "Dark Ages" Guy, and my bow is a very simple hickory self longbow, no shelf (from Rudderbows).
                  > >
                  > > Then, the next questions stem from the fact that when he put said nock point on my recurve string, he set it so that the nock of my arrow would sit markedly higher than how I've always shot (the point of the arrow kind of facing down, as it were). He said that's how it's supposed to be. I've always (since childhood) simply put the arrow perfectly perpendicualr to the bow string. I am self-taught in archery, which is a fancy way of saying I have no idea what I'm doing. He didn't know the physics of it, but insisted it'd help my shooting. So...
                  > >
                  > > 3/4) Is that true, and why? What does that rear-higher angle achive, and how does it do it? (please understand I'm not suggesting it's wrong, I'm just looking to understand)
                  > >
                  > > 5) Is that appropriate for the longbow too?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for reading all this,
                  > >
                  > > Aelric,
                  > > West Kingdom
                  > >
                  >





                • aelric_southlake
                  Thank you all for the responses! Phew, time to re-think my set-up! I noticed that after the nock point was put on my new recurve string, an indentation was
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thank you all for the responses! Phew, time to re-think my set-up!

                    I noticed that after the nock point was put on my new recurve string, an indentation was left in the string's serving where the arrow nocks. So I should think that if one indeed did make the serving a bit wide, the "nock impression" left behind could serve as a nock point. Interesting. I'll have to find that guy's book, sounds like a great resource.

                    But I think the "bit of string and some glue" might just do the trick - should I actually ever figure out how to tune my bow, ha ha ha. Here's a question though: My strings, on both bows, tend to stretch, I'm often winding up my longbow's string to get the brace height 'right.' I know I'm never getting it exactly the same (cuz I eyeball it), and I suspect my recurve's string stretches a bit with every session. So, string nock point is a bit of an ever moving target? That is, better than NOT having it, but something that really needs to be monitored from session to session?

                    AND, glad to've heard about the paper tuning! At my local bow range they have these odd contraptions that hold paper in a frame. Had been wondering what those might be for.

                    Thanks again, and back to the range for me...
                  • David A. Nolan
                    This may just be from a longbow perspective, but has anyone tried tying a bowyers knot for a nock point on a recurve? Aengus O Nolan Middle Kingdom Sent from
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      This may just be from a longbow perspective, but has anyone tried tying a bowyers knot for a nock point on a recurve?

                      Aengus O'Nolan
                      Middle Kingdom

                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On Feb 9, 2012, at 12:15 PM, "aelric_southlake" <magnetcoil@...> wrote:

                       

                      Thank you all for the responses! Phew, time to re-think my set-up!

                      I noticed that after the nock point was put on my new recurve string, an indentation was left in the string's serving where the arrow nocks. So I should think that if one indeed did make the serving a bit wide, the "nock impression" left behind could serve as a nock point. Interesting. I'll have to find that guy's book, sounds like a great resource.

                      But I think the "bit of string and some glue" might just do the trick - should I actually ever figure out how to tune my bow, ha ha ha. Here's a question though: My strings, on both bows, tend to stretch, I'm often winding up my longbow's string to get the brace height 'right.' I know I'm never getting it exactly the same (cuz I eyeball it), and I suspect my recurve's string stretches a bit with every session. So, string nock point is a bit of an ever moving target? That is, better than NOT having it, but something that really needs to be monitored from session to session?

                      AND, glad to've heard about the paper tuning! At my local bow range they have these odd contraptions that hold paper in a frame. Had been wondering what those might be for.

                      Thanks again, and back to the range for me...

                    • Bill Tait
                      Your nocking point will not move vertically due to string stretch; the entire string stretches, not just the top half. :) Get yourself a bow square (clips to
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Your nocking point will not move vertically due to string stretch; the entire string stretches, not just the top half. :)

                        Get yourself a bow square (clips to your string to help measure nocking point location, as well as brace height. Simply eyeballing it will give you inconsistent results. Mine is always the same, within 1mm. Brace height will affect the size of your group, not just the arrow speed.

                        William

                        On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:15 AM, aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
                         

                        Thank you all for the responses! Phew, time to re-think my set-up!

                        I noticed that after the nock point was put on my new recurve string, an indentation was left in the string's serving where the arrow nocks. So I should think that if one indeed did make the serving a bit wide, the "nock impression" left behind could serve as a nock point. Interesting. I'll have to find that guy's book, sounds like a great resource.

                        But I think the "bit of string and some glue" might just do the trick - should I actually ever figure out how to tune my bow, ha ha ha. Here's a question though: My strings, on both bows, tend to stretch, I'm often winding up my longbow's string to get the brace height 'right.' I know I'm never getting it exactly the same (cuz I eyeball it), and I suspect my recurve's string stretches a bit with every session. So, string nock point is a bit of an ever moving target? That is, better than NOT having it, but something that really needs to be monitored from session to session?

                        AND, glad to've heard about the paper tuning! At my local bow range they have these odd contraptions that hold paper in a frame. Had been wondering what those might be for.

                        Thanks again, and back to the range for me...


                      • Bill Tait
                        A bowyers knot is (I believe) simply a timber hitch used to secure the bowstring to the limb (at one end only). It is not a knot in the middle of the string,
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          A "bowyers knot" is (I believe) simply a timber hitch used to secure the bowstring to the limb (at one end only). It is not a knot in the middle of the string, 

                          from the SCA target archery rules: a. Strings that have become knotted, or those that have been repaired by knotting strands
                          together, shall not be used. This rule does not forbid those string designs that incorporate
                          knots, such as a bowyer’s knot, in their original design.


                          William

                          On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:
                          Your nocking point will not move vertically due to string stretch; the entire string stretches, not just the top half. :)

                          Get yourself a bow square (clips to your string to help measure nocking point location, as well as brace height. Simply eyeballing it will give you inconsistent results. Mine is always the same, within 1mm. Brace height will affect the size of your group, not just the arrow speed.

                          William


                          On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:15 AM, aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
                           

                          Thank you all for the responses! Phew, time to re-think my set-up!

                          I noticed that after the nock point was put on my new recurve string, an indentation was left in the string's serving where the arrow nocks. So I should think that if one indeed did make the serving a bit wide, the "nock impression" left behind could serve as a nock point. Interesting. I'll have to find that guy's book, sounds like a great resource.

                          But I think the "bit of string and some glue" might just do the trick - should I actually ever figure out how to tune my bow, ha ha ha. Here's a question though: My strings, on both bows, tend to stretch, I'm often winding up my longbow's string to get the brace height 'right.' I know I'm never getting it exactly the same (cuz I eyeball it), and I suspect my recurve's string stretches a bit with every session. So, string nock point is a bit of an ever moving target? That is, better than NOT having it, but something that really needs to be monitored from session to session?

                          AND, glad to've heard about the paper tuning! At my local bow range they have these odd contraptions that hold paper in a frame. Had been wondering what those might be for.

                          Thanks again, and back to the range for me...



                        • David A. Nolan
                          I misspoke. I meant the use of a knot as a nock point, not necessarily an actual timber hitch. I ve heard of some archers tying a nock point using an entirely
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I misspoke. I meant the use of a knot as a nock point, not necessarily an actual timber hitch.

                            I've heard of some archers tying a nock point using an entirely separate piece of serving or even regular thread, and was wondering if anyone had experimented with it in the SCA.

                            Aengus

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On Feb 9, 2012, at 12:24 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:

                             

                            A "bowyers knot" is (I believe) simply a timber hitch used to secure the bowstring to the limb (at one end only). It is not a knot in the middle of the string, 


                            from the SCA target archery rules: a. Strings that have become knotted, or those that have been repaired by knotting strands
                            together, shall not be used. This rule does not forbid those string designs that incorporate
                            knots, such as a bowyer’s knot, in their original design.


                            William

                            On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:
                            Your nocking point will not move vertically due to string stretch; the entire string stretches, not just the top half. :)

                            Get yourself a bow square (clips to your string to help measure nocking point location, as well as brace height. Simply eyeballing it will give you inconsistent results. Mine is always the same, within 1mm. Brace height will affect the size of your group, not just the arrow speed.

                            William


                            On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:15 AM, aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
                             

                            Thank you all for the responses! Phew, time to re-think my set-up!

                            I noticed that after the nock point was put on my new recurve string, an indentation was left in the string's serving where the arrow nocks. So I should think that if one indeed did make the serving a bit wide, the "nock impression" left behind could serve as a nock point. Interesting. I'll have to find that guy's book, sounds like a great resource.

                            But I think the "bit of string and some glue" might just do the trick - should I actually ever figure out how to tune my bow, ha ha ha. Here's a question though: My strings, on both bows, tend to stretch, I'm often winding up my longbow's string to get the brace height 'right.' I know I'm never getting it exactly the same (cuz I eyeball it), and I suspect my recurve's string stretches a bit with every session. So, string nock point is a bit of an ever moving target? That is, better than NOT having it, but something that really needs to be monitored from session to session?

                            AND, glad to've heard about the paper tuning! At my local bow range they have these odd contraptions that hold paper in a frame. Had been wondering what those might be for.

                            Thanks again, and back to the range for me...



                          • Bill Tait
                            A tied nock point is a separate length of string wrapped and tied around the bowstring. You _cannot_ simply tie a knot in the bowstring. An overhand knot will
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              A tied nock point is a separate length of string wrapped and tied around the bowstring. You _cannot_ simply tie a knot in the bowstring. An overhand knot will reduce the strength of the string by as much as 50%.

                              William

                              On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:29 AM, David A. Nolan <davnolan88@...> wrote:
                               

                              I misspoke. I meant the use of a knot as a nock point, not necessarily an actual timber hitch.

                              I've heard of some archers tying a nock point using an entirely separate piece of serving or even regular thread, and was wondering if anyone had experimented with it in the SCA.

                              Aengus

                              Sent from my iPhone

                              On Feb 9, 2012, at 12:24 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:

                               

                              A "bowyers knot" is (I believe) simply a timber hitch used to secure the bowstring to the limb (at one end only). It is not a knot in the middle of the string, 


                              from the SCA target archery rules: a. Strings that have become knotted, or those that have been repaired by knotting strands
                              together, shall not be used. This rule does not forbid those string designs that incorporate
                              knots, such as a bowyer’s knot, in their original design.


                              William

                              On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:
                              Your nocking point will not move vertically due to string stretch; the entire string stretches, not just the top half. :)

                              Get yourself a bow square (clips to your string to help measure nocking point location, as well as brace height. Simply eyeballing it will give you inconsistent results. Mine is always the same, within 1mm. Brace height will affect the size of your group, not just the arrow speed.

                              William


                              On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:15 AM, aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
                               

                              Thank you all for the responses! Phew, time to re-think my set-up!

                              I noticed that after the nock point was put on my new recurve string, an indentation was left in the string's serving where the arrow nocks. So I should think that if one indeed did make the serving a bit wide, the "nock impression" left behind could serve as a nock point. Interesting. I'll have to find that guy's book, sounds like a great resource.

                              But I think the "bit of string and some glue" might just do the trick - should I actually ever figure out how to tune my bow, ha ha ha. Here's a question though: My strings, on both bows, tend to stretch, I'm often winding up my longbow's string to get the brace height 'right.' I know I'm never getting it exactly the same (cuz I eyeball it), and I suspect my recurve's string stretches a bit with every session. So, string nock point is a bit of an ever moving target? That is, better than NOT having it, but something that really needs to be monitored from session to session?

                              AND, glad to've heard about the paper tuning! At my local bow range they have these odd contraptions that hold paper in a frame. Had been wondering what those might be for.

                              Thanks again, and back to the range for me...




                            • Guy Taylor
                              Yes. Per my original post on this subject, this is what I do. Many, many people in mundane traditional archery do this with fine results. Most use either
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Yes. Per my original post on this subject, this is what I do. Many, many people in mundane traditional archery do this with fine results. Most use either dental floss or some serving line.
                                 
                                Guy 

                                The new Greenman Archery website




                                From: David A. Nolan <davnolan88@...>
                                To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thu, February 9, 2012 10:29:38 AM
                                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Nock points, arrow angle, and some other stuff...

                                 

                                I misspoke. I meant the use of a knot as a nock point, not necessarily an actual timber hitch.

                                I've heard of some archers tying a nock point using an entirely separate piece of serving or even regular thread, and was wondering if anyone had experimented with it in the SCA.

                                Aengus

                                Sent from my iPhone

                                On Feb 9, 2012, at 12:24 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:

                                 

                                A "bowyers knot" is (I believe) simply a timber hitch used to secure the bowstring to the limb (at one end only). It is not a knot in the middle of the string, 


                                from the SCA target archery rules: a. Strings that have become knotted, or those that have been repaired by knotting strands
                                together, shall not be used. This rule does not forbid those string designs that incorporate
                                knots, such as a bowyer’s knot, in their original design.


                                William

                                On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:
                                Your nocking point will not move vertically due to string stretch; the entire string stretches, not just the top half. :)

                                Get yourself a bow square (clips to your string to help measure nocking point location, as well as brace height. Simply eyeballing it will give you inconsistent results. Mine is always the same, within 1mm. Brace height will affect the size of your group, not just the arrow speed.

                                William


                                On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:15 AM, aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Thank you all for the responses! Phew, time to re-think my set-up!

                                I noticed that after the nock point was put on my new recurve string, an indentation was left in the string's serving where the arrow nocks. So I should think that if one indeed did make the serving a bit wide, the "nock impression" left behind could serve as a nock point. Interesting. I'll have to find that guy's book, sounds like a great resource.

                                But I think the "bit of string and some glue" might just do the trick - should I actually ever figure out how to tune my bow, ha ha ha. Here's a question though: My strings, on both bows, tend to stretch, I'm often winding up my longbow's string to get the brace height 'right.' I know I'm never getting it exactly the same (cuz I eyeball it), and I suspect my recurve's string stretches a bit with every session. So, string nock point is a bit of an ever moving target? That is, better than NOT having it, but something that really needs to be monitored from session to session?

                                AND, glad to've heard about the paper tuning! At my local bow range they have these odd contraptions that hold paper in a frame. Had been wondering what those might be for.

                                Thanks again, and back to the range for me...



                              • Me
                                Some people use a type of monkeys fist knot for the nock point. Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless ... From: David A. Nolan To:
                                Message 15 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Some people use a type of monkeys fist knot for the nock point.

                                  Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless


                                  -----Original message-----
                                  From: "David A. Nolan" <davnolan88@...>
                                  To:
                                  "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent:
                                  Thu, Feb 9, 2012 18:29:38 GMT+00:00
                                  Subject:
                                  Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Nock points, arrow angle, and some other stuff...

                                   

                                  I misspoke. I meant the use of a knot as a nock point, not necessarily an actual timber hitch.

                                  I've heard of some archers tying a nock point using an entirely separate piece of serving or even regular thread, and was wondering if anyone had experimented with it in the SCA.

                                  Aengus

                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                  On Feb 9, 2012, at 12:24 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:

                                   

                                  A "bowyers knot" is (I believe) simply a timber hitch used to secure the bowstring to the limb (at one end only). It is not a knot in the middle of the string, 


                                  from the SCA target archery rules: a. Strings that have become knotted, or those that have been repaired by knotting strands
                                  together, shall not be used. This rule does not forbid those string designs that incorporate
                                  knots, such as a bowyer’s knot, in their original design.


                                  William

                                  On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:
                                  Your nocking point will not move vertically due to string stretch; the entire string stretches, not just the top half. :)

                                  Get yourself a bow square (clips to your string to help measure nocking point location, as well as brace height. Simply eyeballing it will give you inconsistent results. Mine is always the same, within 1mm. Brace height will affect the size of your group, not just the arrow speed.

                                  William


                                  On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:15 AM, aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Thank you all for the responses! Phew, time to re-think my set-up!

                                  I noticed that after the nock point was put on my new recurve string, an indentation was left in the string's serving where the arrow nocks. So I should think that if one indeed did make the serving a bit wide, the "nock impression" left behind could serve as a nock point. Interesting. I'll have to find that guy's book, sounds like a great resource.

                                  But I think the "bit of string and some glue" might just do the trick - should I actually ever figure out how to tune my bow, ha ha ha. Here's a question though: My strings, on both bows, tend to stretch, I'm often winding up my longbow's string to get the brace height 'right.' I know I'm never getting it exactly the same (cuz I eyeball it), and I suspect my recurve's string stretches a bit with every session. So, string nock point is a bit of an ever moving target? That is, better than NOT having it, but something that really needs to be monitored from session to session?

                                  AND, glad to've heard about the paper tuning! At my local bow range they have these odd contraptions that hold paper in a frame. Had been wondering what those might be for.

                                  Thanks again, and back to the range for me...



                                • Fritz
                                  I make my strings by twining (so called flemish splice ) and instead of serving them to add thickness in the nock-and-draw area, I twine in extra string
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Feb 9, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I make my strings by twining (so called flemish 'splice') and instead of
                                    serving them to add thickness in the nock-and-draw area, I twine in
                                    extra string material.

                                    AFTER the string has stretched-in, to put on my nocking point I loosen
                                    the string, put a strand of string material _through_ the bowstring
                                    (between plys), re-string the bow, and then serve/whip the string for
                                    about 3/4".

                                    This gives me a place for my forefinger to be _on_ instead of above,
                                    giving me a little more control of the arrow as I draw, and there's no
                                    knob of metal trying to tear a groove in my glove.

                                    --
                                    Fritz
                                    Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.


                                    When Me put fingers to keys it was 2/9/12 3:06 PM...

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Some people use a type of monkeys fist knot for the nock point.
                                  • aelric_southlake
                                    Hey Fritz, that sounds really interesting. My longbow string has NO serving, and though I have no idea HOW to do it, I ve been thinking of adding more string
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Feb 10, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hey Fritz, that sounds really interesting. My longbow string has NO serving, and though I have no idea HOW to do it, I've been thinking of adding more string thickness to it. I THINK I understood what you were describing, but if you were ever inclined to put up a couple pics, I'd be much obliged. My string is made up of strands, so I think I could do something like you were describing.

                                      I also want to round out the interior of the the self-nocks on my arrows, as (I'm assuming from the appearance) they were made on a mechanical jig (by Glacier Traditional Archery), which made a hard 90 degree edge. I think it is eating my string quite a bit. I think a properly sized round file, and a dab of varnish to re-seal it oughtta do it... I dunno...

                                      ~ Aelric

                                      Fritz Wrote: ...I make my strings by twining (so called flemish 'splice') and instead of serving them to add thickness in the nock-and-draw area, I twine in extra string material. AFTER the string has stretched-in, to put on my nocking point I loosen the string, put a strand of string material _through_ the bowstring...
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.