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Re: Proposal for Target Archery Tournament for SCA 50th Anniversary

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  • John Edgerton
    The following is re-posted from someone that no longer is on the list, but thanks to Yahoo still receives messages. Jon
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 18, 2011
      The following is re-posted from someone that no longer is on the list, but thanks to Yahoo still receives messages.  

      Jon


      ________________________________
      From: Oblio of Abertwidr <oblio.of.abertwidr@...>
      To: John Edgerton <sirjon1@...>
      Sent: Thu, December 15, 2011 7:47:33 PM
      Subject: Re: Proposal for Target Archery Tournament for SCA 50th
      Anniversary
      Event



      I thought that I had sent a message containing a couple of suggestions
      relating to a possible Target Archery Event. However, I cannot find a
      copy of the message from me, that I had believed that I have sent, so
      it appears to have been eaten by the evil spirits that haunt gmail.

      The first suggestion component is that, given the increasing
      difficulties with international travel, I suggest that a Target
      Archery Tournament be held as a virtual/Internet tournament. An
      example of a Target Archery tournament being conducted this way, is
      the SCAIKAC, which is held from 01 February to 01 December, each
      year. Many other examples of tournaments held remotely, exist, in
      various archery organisations. Having such a tournament, over a number
      of months, allows for the difference in seasons between different
      countries, and, for example, I believe that most archery clubs in the
      United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, do not shoot outside,
      during the winter months.

      That is the first suggestion component.

      The second suggestion component, is the type of shoot.

      The SCA currently has the IKAC Round.

      I propose a tournament to incorporate that Round, and, a version of
      the Kings Round, which I shall name the Henry Round. This is a
      modified version of the Henry Round that I had described in my
      previous email message. If you have not received that email message,
      then the allusion to the Henry Round as described in that message,
      does not matter, as I believe the round described below, to be a
      better version of the round..

      I name the Henry Round after King Henry 8, who , at the "Field of the
      Cloth of Gold", held "from 7 June to 24 June 1520", accomplished the
      following feat.

      "1520 AD - Henry VIII demonstrates his skill with the longbow at a
      summit meeting hosted by the French King, where he repeatedly shot
      into the centre of a target at a distance of 220 metres ( 240 yards
      )."
      - from http://www.centenaryarchers.gil.com.au/history.htm

      The Henry Round as defined by me, is thus. Starting at the distance of
      20 yards, the archers shoot an end of 6 arrows, at the standard target
      face as used by the SCA; a FITA 60cm 10 scoring zone target face. The
      archers who achieve a minimum of 4 arrows of the 6 arrows, as scoring
      arrows, are awarded 20 points, and proceed to the next distance. The
      targets are then put at a distance greater by 10 yards, at a distance
      of 30 yards. The archers who have not been eliminated in the last
      distance shot, then shoot an end of 6 arrows. The archers who achieve
      a minimum of 4 arrows of the 6 arrows, as scoring arrows, are awarded
      20 points, and proceed to the next distance. The targets are then put
      at a distance greater by 10 yards, at a distance of 40 yards. The
      archers who have not been eliminated in the last distance shot, then
      shoot an end of 6 arrows. The archers who achieve a minimum of 4
      arrows of the 6 arrows, as scoring arrows, are awarded 20 points, and
      proceed to the next distance. The targets are then put at a distance
      greater by 10 yards,, and this keeps being repeated, until no archer
      achieves the minimum of four arrows of the six arrows shot in the end,
      as scoring arrows. The points for each archer who entered, are then
      totalled, for the Henry Round.

      The points totals for the Henry Round, are then added to the points
      for the IKAC Round, for each archer.

      The total points for each of the IKAC Round, the Henry Round, and the
      total of the points for the two rounds, added together, are then sent
      to the organiser of the tournament, and the person who gets the
      highest total score, wins.

      The third suggestion component, is the separation of the different bow
      types, into separate Divisions.

      I note that, due to the differences between bow types, in the methods
      of shooting and the scoring results,  the bow types should be
      separated for this competition, as separate Divisions, so that there
      is one for English Longbow style bows, that are shot of the hand, one
      for American Flatbow style bows that are shot off an arrow shelf, one
      for horsebows that are shot off the hand, one for recurve bows that
      are shot off an arrow rest, etc, with a Champion for each bow type.

      In the Barony of Aneala, which I understand, in the SCA "scheme of
      things", to be a relatively small Barony, with around 100 members,
      from what I understand, several archers shoot recurve bows, several
      archers shoot American Flatbow style bows, a couple (about 3, I think)
      shoot horsebows, and a couple, I think, shoot English Longbow Style
      bows. I believe that I am the only person from the state of Western
      Australia, that has shot in the IKAC Period Handbow Division, although
      I have tried to encourage other archers to shoot in that Division.

      I believe that, across the SCA (International), sufficient archers
      shoot each of the named bow types, and, possibly other bow types, to
      justify separation of the bow types into separate Divisions, for the
      proposed tournament, if not also for the IKAC, itself.

      I had, at the local level, wanted to have more involvement in Target
      Archery within the SCA, and I had hoped to be able to start a Guild Of
      Target Archers, at least at the Lochac Kingdom level, and, that would
      have involved assessment of skill, using the Henry Round, and, with
      the bow types separated for comparison of skill. For a number of
      reasons, that has not happened, but I believe that the above
      proposition, should make for an interesting tournament for Target
      Archery, for the SCA 50th Anniversary event, if it would be
      implemented.

      I hope that you find the above proposed tournament, a worthwhile
      proposition for the SCA 50th Anniversary event.

      --
      Oblio the Unregistered,
      Heretic of Abertwidr

      Per fructu, non folii
      ................................
      (Abertridwr is a Canton of the Barony of Aneala, which is a Barony of
      the Kingdom of Lochac)



      Hello.



      Having said that, with me not being (officially?) subscribed to the
      list, I give you my permission to forward the message to the list, for
      discussion. I believe that it is a suggestion that merits discussion,
      and therefore, I do not object to the suggestion being discussed on a
      list to which I am not subscribed.

      Regarding the proposed Divisions, the Divisions that i suggested, were
      only as starting points.

      A multiplicity of bow types exist, and, for example, one bow type with
      which I want to experiment (when I get such a bow), is a Holm(e)gaard
      Bow, and I believe that it is such a radical design, that it deserves
      its own bow type Division. I understand that the Holm(e)gaard Bow
      dates back about 9,000 years, and so, depending on a person's
      interpretation of what is covered by the SCA (I understand that this
      is one of the controversies that people can argue extremely
      emotionally about), wiuth some saying that the SCA covers only from
      600AD to 1600AD, some sayong (I Think) 400AD to 1600AD, and, I think,
      the Corpora or the SCAByLaws, in a peface, or, in some other official
      publication of equall standing, says simply pre-1600, which includes
      going back to the "Ice Age", and so, should be inclusive of the
      Holm(e)gaard Bow.

      I think that the inclusion of crossbows is a matter of controversy.
      Whilst they are a valid part of the heritage to which the SCA is
      applicable, in some countries, due to hysterical and crooked police
      ministers and equivalent lawmakers, stupid restrictions and even
      prohibition, apply to crossbows and crossbow archers. I live in the
      state of Western Australia. Crossbows are effectively banned here, due
      to a single incident of a person being shot in the chest with a
      crossbow, in Western Australia. Insofar as I am aware, no-one has been
      killed by a crossbow, in Western Australia. But, people (more than
      one) have been beaten to death with cricket bats and baseball bats and
      such, and they are not prohibited in the same way that crossbows are
      banned, here. More people have been shot to death with modern
      firearms. But, while restrictions apply to their ownership and,
      (minor) restrictions apply to their use, they are not outlawed. The
      restrictions and banning of crossbows, for the reasons for the
      actions, are false and stupid.

      But, some countries, and some states, do not allow the use of
      crossbows, and I believe that this makes it unfair for the SCA to
      allow the use of crossbows, when some of its members are allowed to
      use them, and some are not.

      I am not saying that, if crossbows are included in such a tournament,
      I would raise loud objection; my only objection is, as I have stated.

      However, if crossbows are to be included, then I believe that,
      firstly, only period crossbows should be allowed (modern
      sports/hunting crossbows, are far too powerful, to be safe at the
      short distances involved in target shooting in the SCA), and, they
      should definitely, as in the IKAC, have a bow type Division dedicated
      to them.

      As far as having the youth Divisions, I agree that that would be fair,
      but not, I think, the way that it is implemented in the IKAC. I do not
      think that theway that it is implemented in teIKAC, is fair, or,
      sufficiently simple.

      But, the matter of which Divisions should be incorporated in the
      proposed tournament, would be up to, ultimately, the event
      organiser(s), who I expect to implement whatever Divisions, with
      safety and fairness to competitors, in mind.

      Just out of interest, in terms of the separation of bow types by
      Divisions, at a recent meeting of my Canton, a new member complained
      that, as an archer shooting an American Flatbow style bow, he was
      shooting against archers shooting modern recurve bows. Whilst his bow
      has an arrow shelf, and, the recurve bows are only allowed to be shot
      as barebowrecurve bows, I believe that it is one of the inequities
      that could be overcome, by separating bow types by having separate a
      Division for each bow type.

      And, publishing my proposal for the tournament, could perhaps lead to
      discussions that could, amongst other things, flow on, to having the
      beneficial result of having bow types separated by having a separate
      Division for each defined bow type, across the SCA.

      And, in so doing, I believe that this would accord more recognition
      to, and, therefore, encourage participation, Period Bow Divisions, and
      so, better encourage the development of period style archery within
      the SCA.

      We can always hope...

      --
      Oblio the Unregistered,
      Heretic of Abertwidr

      Per fructu, non folii
      ................................
    • Harry Billings
      I like the way he thinks for a round. plachoya Ansteorra The following is re-posted from someone that no longer is on the list, but thanks to Yahoo still
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 18, 2011
        I like the way he thinks for a round.

        plachoya
        Ansteorra

         

         
        The following is re-posted from someone that no longer is on the list, but thanks to Yahoo still receives messages.  

        Jon


        ________________________________
         

        The Henry Round as defined by me, is thus. Starting at the distance of
        20 yards, the archers shoot an end of 6 arrows, at the standard target
        face as used by the SCA; a FITA 60cm 10 scoring zone target face. The
        archers who achieve a minimum of 4 arrows of the 6 arrows, as scoring
        arrows, are awarded 20 points, and proceed to the next distance. The
        targets are then put at a distance greater by 10 yards, at a distance
        of 30 yards. The archers who have not been eliminated in the last
        distance shot, then shoot an end of 6 arrows. The archers who achieve
        a minimum of 4 arrows of the 6 arrows, as scoring arrows, are awarded
        20 points, and proceed to the next distance. The targets are then put
        at a distance greater by 10 yards, at a distance of 40 yards. The
        archers who have not been eliminated in the last distance shot, then
        shoot an end of 6 arrows. The archers who achieve a minimum of 4
        arrows of the 6 arrows, as scoring arrows, are awarded 20 points, and
        proceed to the next distance. The targets are then put at a distance
        greater by 10 yards,, and this keeps being repeated, until no archer
        achieves the minimum of four arrows of the six arrows shot in the end,
        as scoring arrows. The points for each archer who entered, are then
        totalled, for the Henry Round.

        The points totals for the Henry Round, are then added to the points
        for the IKAC Round, for each archer.

        The total points for each of the IKAC Round, the Henry Round, and the
        total of the points for the two rounds, added together, are then sent
        to the organiser of the tournament, and the person who gets the
        highest total score, wins.
         
         
         
        .

      • Taslen
        Boy I really like that idea for the cometition!   Gaelen ________________________________ From: John Edgerton To:
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 18, 2011
          Boy I really like that idea for the cometition!
           
          Gaelen

          From: John Edgerton <sirjon1@...>
          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:34 PM
          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Proposal for Target Archery Tournament for SCA 50th Anniversary

           
          The following is re-posted from someone that no longer is on the list, but thanks to Yahoo still receives messages.  

          Jon


          ________________________________
          From: Oblio of Abertwidr <oblio.of.abertwidr@...>
          To: John Edgerton <sirjon1@...>
          Sent: Thu, December 15, 2011 7:47:33 PM
          Subject: Re: Proposal for Target Archery Tournament for SCA 50th
          Anniversary
          Event



          I thought that I had sent a message containing a couple of suggestions
          relating to a possible Target Archery Event. However, I cannot find a
          copy of the message from me, that I had believed that I have sent, so
          it appears to have been eaten by the evil spirits that haunt gmail.

          The first suggestion component is that, given the increasing
          difficulties with international travel, I suggest that a Target
          Archery Tournament be held as a virtual/Internet tournament. An
          example of a Target Archery tournament being conducted this way, is
          the SCAIKAC, which is held from 01 February to 01 December, each
          year. Many other examples of tournaments held remotely, exist, in
          various archery organisations. Having such a tournament, over a number
          of months, allows for the difference in seasons between different
          countries, and, for example, I believe that most archery clubs in the
          United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, do not shoot outside,
          during the winter months.

          That is the first suggestion component.

          The second suggestion component, is the type of shoot.

          The SCA currently has the IKAC Round.

          I propose a tournament to incorporate that Round, and, a version of
          the Kings Round, which I shall name the Henry Round. This is a
          modified version of the Henry Round that I had described in my
          previous email message. If you have not received that email message,
          then the allusion to the Henry Round as described in that message,
          does not matter, as I believe the round described below, to be a
          better version of the round..

          I name the Henry Round after King Henry 8, who , at the "Field of the
          Cloth of Gold", held "from 7 June to 24 June 1520", accomplished the
          following feat.

          "1520 AD - Henry VIII demonstrates his skill with the longbow at a
          summit meeting hosted by the French King, where he repeatedly shot
          into the centre of a target at a distance of 220 metres ( 240 yards
          )."
          - from http://www.centenaryarchers.gil.com.au/history.htm

          The Henry Round as defined by me, is thus. Starting at the distance of
          20 yards, the archers shoot an end of 6 arrows, at the standard target
          face as used by the SCA; a FITA 60cm 10 scoring zone target face. The
          archers who achieve a minimum of 4 arrows of the 6 arrows, as scoring
          arrows, are awarded 20 points, and proceed to the next distance. The
          targets are then put at a distance greater by 10 yards, at a distance
          of 30 yards. The archers who have not been eliminated in the last
          distance shot, then shoot an end of 6 arrows. The archers who achieve
          a minimum of 4 arrows of the 6 arrows, as scoring arrows, are awarded
          20 points, and proceed to the next distance. The targets are then put
          at a distance greater by 10 yards, at a distance of 40 yards. The
          archers who have not been eliminated in the last distance shot, then
          shoot an end of 6 arrows. The archers who achieve a minimum of 4
          arrows of the 6 arrows, as scoring arrows, are awarded 20 points, and
          proceed to the next distance. The targets are then put at a distance
          greater by 10 yards,, and this keeps being repeated, until no archer
          achieves the minimum of four arrows of the six arrows shot in the end,
          as scoring arrows. The points for each archer who entered, are then
          totalled, for the Henry Round.

          The points totals for the Henry Round, are then added to the points
          for the IKAC Round, for each archer.

          The total points for each of the IKAC Round, the Henry Round, and the
          total of the points for the two rounds, added together, are then sent
          to the organiser of the tournament, and the person who gets the
          highest total score, wins.

          The third suggestion component, is the separation of the different bow
          types, into separate Divisions.

          I note that, due to the differences between bow types, in the methods
          of shooting and the scoring results,  the bow types should be
          separated for this competition, as separate Divisions, so that there
          is one for English Longbow style bows, that are shot of the hand, one
          for American Flatbow style bows that are shot off an arrow shelf, one
          for horsebows that are shot off the hand, one for recurve bows that
          are shot off an arrow rest, etc, with a Champion for each bow type.

          In the Barony of Aneala, which I understand, in the SCA "scheme of
          things", to be a relatively small Barony, with around 100 members,
          from what I understand, several archers shoot recurve bows, several
          archers shoot American Flatbow style bows, a couple (about 3, I think)
          shoot horsebows, and a couple, I think, shoot English Longbow Style
          bows. I believe that I am the only person from the state of Western
          Australia, that has shot in the IKAC Period Handbow Division, although
          I have tried to encourage other archers to shoot in that Division.

          I believe that, across the SCA (International), sufficient archers
          shoot each of the named bow types, and, possibly other bow types, to
          justify separation of the bow types into separate Divisions, for the
          proposed tournament, if not also for the IKAC, itself.

          I had, at the local level, wanted to have more involvement in Target
          Archery within the SCA, and I had hoped to be able to start a Guild Of
          Target Archers, at least at the Lochac Kingdom level, and, that would
          have involved assessment of skill, using the Henry Round, and, with
          the bow types separated for comparison of skill. For a number of
          reasons, that has not happened, but I believe that the above
          proposition, should make for an interesting tournament for Target
          Archery, for the SCA 50th Anniversary event, if it would be
          implemented.

          I hope that you find the above proposed tournament, a worthwhile
          proposition for the SCA 50th Anniversary event.

          --
          Oblio the Unregistered,
          Heretic of Abertwidr

          Per fructu, non folii
          ................................
          (Abertridwr is a Canton of the Barony of Aneala, which is a Barony of
          the Kingdom of Lochac)



          Hello.



          Having said that, with me not being (officially?) subscribed to the
          list, I give you my permission to forward the message to the list, for
          discussion. I believe that it is a suggestion that merits discussion,
          and therefore, I do not object to the suggestion being discussed on a
          list to which I am not subscribed.

          Regarding the proposed Divisions, the Divisions that i suggested, were
          only as starting points.

          A multiplicity of bow types exist, and, for example, one bow type with
          which I want to experiment (when I get such a bow), is a Holm(e)gaard
          Bow, and I believe that it is such a radical design, that it deserves
          its own bow type Division. I understand that the Holm(e)gaard Bow
          dates back about 9,000 years, and so, depending on a person's
          interpretation of what is covered by the SCA (I understand that this
          is one of the controversies that people can argue extremely
          emotionally about), wiuth some saying that the SCA covers only from
          600AD to 1600AD, some sayong (I Think) 400AD to 1600AD, and, I think,
          the Corpora or the SCAByLaws, in a peface, or, in some other official
          publication of equall standing, says simply pre-1600, which includes
          going back to the "Ice Age", and so, should be inclusive of the
          Holm(e)gaard Bow.

          I think that the inclusion of crossbows is a matter of controversy.
          Whilst they are a valid part of the heritage to which the SCA is
          applicable, in some countries, due to hysterical and crooked police
          ministers and equivalent lawmakers, stupid restrictions and even
          prohibition, apply to crossbows and crossbow archers. I live in the
          state of Western Australia. Crossbows are effectively banned here, due
          to a single incident of a person being shot in the chest with a
          crossbow, in Western Australia. Insofar as I am aware, no-one has been
          killed by a crossbow, in Western Australia. But, people (more than
          one) have been beaten to death with cricket bats and baseball bats and
          such, and they are not prohibited in the same way that crossbows are
          banned, here. More people have been shot to death with modern
          firearms. But, while restrictions apply to their ownership and,
          (minor) restrictions apply to their use, they are not outlawed. The
          restrictions and banning of crossbows, for the reasons for the
          actions, are false and stupid.

          But, some countries, and some states, do not allow the use of
          crossbows, and I believe that this makes it unfair for the SCA to
          allow the use of crossbows, when some of its members are allowed to
          use them, and some are not.

          I am not saying that, if crossbows are included in such a tournament,
          I would raise loud objection; my only objection is, as I have stated.

          However, if crossbows are to be included, then I believe that,
          firstly, only period crossbows should be allowed (modern
          sports/hunting crossbows, are far too powerful, to be safe at the
          short distances involved in target shooting in the SCA), and, they
          should definitely, as in the IKAC, have a bow type Division dedicated
          to them.

          As far as having the youth Divisions, I agree that that would be fair,
          but not, I think, the way that it is implemented in the IKAC. I do not
          think that theway that it is implemented in teIKAC, is fair, or,
          sufficiently simple.

          But, the matter of which Divisions should be incorporated in the
          proposed tournament, would be up to, ultimately, the event
          organiser(s), who I expect to implement whatever Divisions, with
          safety and fairness to competitors, in mind.

          Just out of interest, in terms of the separation of bow types by
          Divisions, at a recent meeting of my Canton, a new member complained
          that, as an archer shooting an American Flatbow style bow, he was
          shooting against archers shooting modern recurve bows. Whilst his bow
          has an arrow shelf, and, the recurve bows are only allowed to be shot
          as barebowrecurve bows, I believe that it is one of the inequities
          that could be overcome, by separating bow types by having separate a
          Division for each bow type.

          And, publishing my proposal for the tournament, could perhaps lead to
          discussions that could, amongst other things, flow on, to having the
          beneficial result of having bow types separated by having a separate
          Division for each defined bow type, across the SCA.

          And, in so doing, I believe that this would accord more recognition
          to, and, therefore, encourage participation, Period Bow Divisions, and
          so, better encourage the development of period style archery within
          the SCA.

          We can always hope...

          --
          Oblio the Unregistered,
          Heretic of Abertwidr

          Per fructu, non folii
          ................................


        • John Edgerton
          Yes. It is an interesting variant of the type of competition where the distance to the target increases each round and those that do not get a hit on the
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 18, 2011
            Yes.  It is an interesting variant of the type of competition where  the distance to the target increases each round and those that do not get a hit on the target are eliminated from the next round. There is an Italian competition (Ferrara Ring Shoot) where the distance stays the same, but the size of the target decreases each round with those missing being eliminated from the competition. 

            This has the advantage of providing points for each round that can be added to other competitions for an overall total score. 

            Jon

            On Dec 18, 2011, at 3:32 PM, Taslen wrote:

             

            Boy I really like that idea for the competition!
             
            Gaelen
          • Taslen
            Well if I run any events this year I might just give one a try.   Gaelen ________________________________ From: John Edgerton To:
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 18, 2011
              Well if I run any events this year I might just give one a try.
               
              Gaelen

              From: John Edgerton <sirjon1@...>
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 7:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Proposal for Target Archery Tournament for SCA 50th Anniversary

               
              Yes.  It is an interesting variant of the type of competition where  the distance to the target increases each round and those that do not get a hit on the target are eliminated from the next round. There is an Italian competition (Ferrara Ring Shoot) where the distance stays the same, but the size of the target decreases each round with those missing being eliminated from the competition. 

              This has the advantage of providing points for each round that can be added to other competitions for an overall total score. 

              Jon

              On Dec 18, 2011, at 3:32 PM, Taslen wrote:

               

              Boy I really like that idea for the competition!
               
              Gaelen


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