Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Working with fibreglass shafting

Expand Messages
  • The Greys
    Ranif, Your comments about the SCA approved shafts brought back from Pennsic are really funny. Shooting these logs out of a 30 pound (maximum draw weight
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 10, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Ranif,
      Your comments about the SCA "approved" shafts brought back from Pennsic are really funny. Shooting these "logs" out of a 30 pound (maximum draw weight for a handbow) really is not terribly effective. Crossbow bolts tend to windmill too. When I heard the Grey Company used bird blunts I thought that was a great idea. My lady and I used to do a lot of combat archery in the SCA. But then they started fooling around with the amo construction rules and the cost per shaft went up. The final for us was when they changed the kill rule from 10 foot rule to actual strike. That just added to the issue of too many heavies simply not honoring a hit from an archer and the fun wasn't there any more for us. But it significantly reduced the amount of "stuff" we have to take to events!

      I only knew of the Grey Company through a buddy on another archery list. He posted a few pictures of their events. In truth, I can't imagine what it must be like for Locach folks to attend Pennsic. How do you get through air port security for starters?

      cog

      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Des & Jan Howard <djhoward@...> wrote:
      >
      > Cog
      > The current Lochac combat standard is 8mm-5/16" wooden
      > shafting, feather or plastic fletching, fibreglass
      > filament taped shafts, rubber blunts, blunts secured
      > with fibreglass filament or electrical tape. Combat
      > participants wear mesh or perf.
      > Unlikely I'll ever attend a stateside war/event like
      > Pennsic. Mixed responses from Lochacians who have.
      > Heavies & party hounds who have, loved it, archers not so.
      > Pennsic combat shafts brought back, lumpy heads & APDs
      > , are viewed with much derision & when demonstrated
      > treated with laughter.
      > Might have to check out Grey Company, more playmates
      > are always welcome.
      > Ranif
    • Bill Tait
      What would be the issue of getting through security? Everything s in checked baggage. I ve done a couple Gulf Wars and 2 (soon 3) Bordermarch Melees by plane.
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 10, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        What would be the issue of getting through security? Everything's in checked baggage.

        I've done a couple Gulf Wars and 2 (soon 3) Bordermarch Melees by plane. That is, bringing armor and weapons in my checked baggage.

        William Arwemakere

        On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 8:03 AM, The Greys <cogworks@...> wrote:
         

        Ranif,
        Your comments about the SCA "approved" shafts brought back from Pennsic are really funny. Shooting these "logs" out of a 30 pound (maximum draw weight for a handbow) really is not terribly effective. Crossbow bolts tend to windmill too. When I heard the Grey Company used bird blunts I thought that was a great idea. My lady and I used to do a lot of combat archery in the SCA. But then they started fooling around with the amo construction rules and the cost per shaft went up. The final for us was when they changed the kill rule from 10 foot rule to actual strike. That just added to the issue of too many heavies simply not honoring a hit from an archer and the fun wasn't there any more for us. But it significantly reduced the amount of "stuff" we have to take to events!

        I only knew of the Grey Company through a buddy on another archery list. He posted a few pictures of their events. In truth, I can't imagine what it must be like for Locach folks to attend Pennsic. How do you get through air port security for starters?



        cog

        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Des & Jan Howard <djhoward@...> wrote:
        >
        > Cog
        > The current Lochac combat standard is 8mm-5/16" wooden
        > shafting, feather or plastic fletching, fibreglass
        > filament taped shafts, rubber blunts, blunts secured
        > with fibreglass filament or electrical tape. Combat
        > participants wear mesh or perf.
        > Unlikely I'll ever attend a stateside war/event like
        > Pennsic. Mixed responses from Lochacians who have.
        > Heavies & party hounds who have, loved it, archers not so.
        > Pennsic combat shafts brought back, lumpy heads & APDs
        > , are viewed with much derision & when demonstrated
        > treated with laughter.
        > Might have to check out Grey Company, more playmates
        > are always welcome.
        > Ranif


      • Des & Jan Howard
        Cog ... A number of places & groups that do re-enactment use blunts, no mesh or grills, heads down, volley loose, end of shoot, fight continues. No free fire
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 10, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Cog
          On 11/11/2011 3:03 AM, The Greys wrote:
          > When I heard the Grey Company used bird blunts I thought
          > that was a great idea.
          A number of places & groups that do re-enactment use
          blunts, no mesh or grills, heads down, volley loose,
          end of shoot, fight continues. No free fire :(

          >The final for us was when they changed the
          > kill rule from 10 foot rule to actual strike.
          Would you kindly explain a tad further?

          > That just added to the issue of too many heavies simply not
          > honoring a hit from an archer and the fun wasn't there any more for us.
          I enjoy the merchanting, (pays my way & is part of my
          persona), feasting, questing, general socialising & of
          course target archery, but, without lots of combat
          archery for me it's a dead loss.

          > But it significantly reduced the amount of "stuff" we have to take to events!
          That would be for certain!

          > I only knew of the Grey Company through a buddy on another archery list.
          > He posted a few pictures of their events.
          I had a look at their website, the pics of fighting
          looked great with good looking gear, until I saw the
          one of pirates running up a beach.

          > In truth, I can't imagine what it must be like for Locach folks
          > to attend Pennsic. How do you get through air port security for starters?
          I don't know. I've only travelled by air twice,
          once regionally by air ambulance post MI & once
          interstate, both pocket knives in the baggage hold
          a set of gift plates in my carry-on :)
          Ranif

          -32.656072 149.840624
        • Hugh Prescott
          Please note 1. If you ever plan on attending one of the large wars here in the states there may be the requirement for APDs. i.e. Gulf Wars requires them and
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 10, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Please note

            1.

            "If you ever plan on attending one of the large wars here in the states there may be the requirement for APDs. i.e. Gulf Wars requires them and I believe Pennsic does as well."

            All thin shafted combat archery missiles require an approved APD in all SCA kingdoms except Lochac. Lochac is under a special dispensation from the SEM because they require metal mesh in their helms for eye protection. It is not a this war or that war thing.

            Also available for combat archery are tubed missiles made from 1 inch ID polypropylene, AKA Sil-O-Flex, commonly used for lawn irrigation systems. This type of missile has several heads that are approved for use including the standard tennis ball. No APD are required for tubed missiles. Because of their mass higher poundage bows& prods are used with tubed missiles.

            2.
            Their exists a SCA-MissileCombat Yahoo group, just like this group, for the discussion of Combat Archery. Please feel free to join and ask questions.

            All of the Societies Combat Archery rules& standards are accessible on the SEM's pages at www.sca.org Also check with your kingdom's Earl Marshal or his deputy for combat archery as
            all kingdoms may have additional rules / requirements / standards.

            Master Hugh Prescott, OP
            Calontir Combat Archery Marshal
            Drop Dead to the Society Deputy for Combat Archery


            On 11/9/2011 7:11 AM, The Greys wrote:
            > Now that's interesting! Seeing as how you are in Lochac there is another reenactment group "down there" called the Grey Company. They actually use bird blunts on their combat shafts. That also means each fighter has to have a mesh face covering on their helms but I'll bet their shafts fly much truer than the SCA combat "logs". If you ever plan on attending one of the large wars here in the states there may be the requirement for APDs. i.e. Gulf Wars requires them and I believe Pennsic does as well.
            >
            > cog
            >
            > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Des& Jan Howard<djhoward@...> wrote:
            >> Thank you good gentles for the replies.
            >> Just thinking ahead if Lochac allows use of fibreglass
            >> shafting as well as wooden shafting for combat arrows.
            >> The tapering would be for nock attachment. APDs are an
            >> not a requirement here& unlikely to ever be.
            >> Ranif
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
          • Des & Jan Howard
            Master Hugh Thank you for that input. Anyone interested in Lochac s approach to combat archery might care to have a look at: Kingdom of Lochac Combat Handbook
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 11, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Master Hugh
              Thank you for that input.
              Anyone interested in Lochac's approach to combat
              archery might care to have a look at:
              Kingdom of Lochac Combat Handbook
              http://sca.org.au/marshal/docs/fighters-handbook.pdf
              Ranif

              On 11/11/2011 3:16 PM, Hugh Prescott wrote:
              > All of the Societies Combat Archery rules&
              > standards are accessible on the SEM's pages at
              > www.sca.org Also check with your kingdom's
              > Earl Marshal or his deputy for combat archery as
              > all kingdoms may have additional
              > rules / requirements / standards.

              -32.656072 149.840624
            • The Greys
              ... Years back when my lady and I started in the SCA we became combat archers. In those days an archer could be killed when a heavy ran up on them and from as
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 11, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                > >The final for us was when they changed the
                > > kill rule from 10 foot rule to actual strike.
                > Would you kindly explain a tad further?

                Years back when my lady and I started in the SCA we became combat archers. In those days an archer could be killed when a heavy ran up on them and from as far away as 10 feet pointed their sword at them and said "Archer, you are dead". Thus the rule then of an archer NOT being able to shoot closer than 10 feet. The archer would then acknowledge the "kill" and place their bow on their head and walk off the field. This got bantied back and for a bit and is now full contact kill. That is, a heavy can run up on an archer and give them a whack to "kill" them. It is supposed to be simply laying their sword on the archer or giving them a light tap, but..... I've discussed this with several quality marshals and they all say if the archer attempts to use their weapon, i.e. crossbow stock, in any fashion to defend themselves the marshal will pull their authorization card. It is my understanding that some kingdoms and some wars archers have the option of being designated 10 foot kill by applying some decal to their helms. However, it does strike me and from my personal combat experience, that most fighters are "in the juice" during battle and would most likely not take the time to look for that decal on an archer's helm and just give the "retaliatory" whack anyway.

                But what really sucked the fun out of combat archery for us was the fighters who simply would not acknowledge an archer hit. On one occasion my kingdom was defending the castle at Gulf Wars. I hit a heavy and he did not acknowledge the hit. He was in a crowd and I can understand he may not have known the hit was from an arrow. I shot him a second time and this time he looked right at me and still did not take the hit. The third time I hit him, I pointed at him when he looked at me and he simply shrugged his shoulders and kept on. Each hit was square in the middle of his chest. This particular fighter was from a kingdom well known for not acknowledging archer hits.

                Now days I spend my time on the target archery range. It is very difficult to call a hit there light. "But marshal, I was aiming for the gold, really I was. Can't we just call it light and give me 5 points anyway?"

                cog
              • Colonel
                Cog, That was a hilarious last part of your note. I ll have to try that logic on a marshall. lol But reading what you said about combat archery, well, I
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 11, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Cog,
                  That was a hilarious last part of your note. I'll have to try that "logic" on a marshall. lol

                  But reading what you said about combat archery, well, I had come the same conclusion about sticking to target, but now I don't feel like so much of a "coward". I have gone over the rules about being an archer in the battles as it sounded like fun, but then I was thinking, "Man, I would really be vunerable out there with some younger crazy who really wanted to whack me". Just last night I got knocked silly like a bowling pin by one of my horses who decided to run to the barn for dinner and didn't see or care that I was in the way. As I lay on the ground waiting for the "fog" to clear I was thinking, "Man, I gotta stop getting myself hurt, lol" Well, today I'm a little sore, but quite convinced that I will stick to target archery, especially after reading of your experiences. What's the old saying - "I'm "getting" too old for this crap"? I think I'll continue to take my chances with my "pets" but leave the combat fighting to the younger guys. It does look like fun, though. I wish I had started SCA twenty years ago.

                  Tom
                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "The Greys" <cogworks@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > >The final for us was when they changed the
                  > > > kill rule from 10 foot rule to actual strike.
                  > > Would you kindly explain a tad further?
                  >
                  > Years back when my lady and I started in the SCA we became combat archers. In those days an archer could be killed when a heavy ran up on them and from as far away as 10 feet pointed their sword at them and said "Archer, you are dead". Thus the rule then of an archer NOT being able to shoot closer than 10 feet. The archer would then acknowledge the "kill" and place their bow on their head and walk off the field. This got bantied back and for a bit and is now full contact kill. That is, a heavy can run up on an archer and give them a whack to "kill" them. It is supposed to be simply laying their sword on the archer or giving them a light tap, but..... I've discussed this with several quality marshals and they all say if the archer attempts to use their weapon, i.e. crossbow stock, in any fashion to defend themselves the marshal will pull their authorization card. It is my understanding that some kingdoms and some wars archers have the option of being designated 10 foot kill by applying some decal to their helms. However, it does strike me and from my personal combat experience, that most fighters are "in the juice" during battle and would most likely not take the time to look for that decal on an archer's helm and just give the "retaliatory" whack anyway.
                  >
                  > But what really sucked the fun out of combat archery for us was the fighters who simply would not acknowledge an archer hit. On one occasion my kingdom was defending the castle at Gulf Wars. I hit a heavy and he did not acknowledge the hit. He was in a crowd and I can understand he may not have known the hit was from an arrow. I shot him a second time and this time he looked right at me and still did not take the hit. The third time I hit him, I pointed at him when he looked at me and he simply shrugged his shoulders and kept on. Each hit was square in the middle of his chest. This particular fighter was from a kingdom well known for not acknowledging archer hits.
                  >
                  > Now days I spend my time on the target archery range. It is very difficult to call a hit there light. "But marshal, I was aiming for the gold, really I was. Can't we just call it light and give me 5 points anyway?"
                  >
                  > cog
                  >
                • Bill Tait
                  Tom, Generally you don t need to worry about being clobbered like a baby seal. In 8 years of fighting as a full-contact CA (averaging 8-10 wars per year) I
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 11, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Tom,

                    Generally you don't need to worry about being clobbered like a baby seal. In 8 years of fighting as a full-contact CA (averaging 8-10 wars per year) I have only been hit harder than expected twice. Only one of those shots was _not_ to the helm (was chased down and struck from behind.. no, not allowed). 98% of the hits I take from rattan are gentle and to the head; the best armored part of my body. I'm now 42 (so not the youngest on the field), wear SCA minimum armor, and generally don't worry unless I grab a rattan weapon, or get too acrobatic diving through bushes and doing rolls when I trip on the run.

                    Yes, there are heavies who won't take even a perfectly good hit from an arrow. There are (likely) many more who "rhino" in heavy tournaments. The hard part is that as an archer, we can't simply "ramp it up" and hit him harder to teach him. For me, the 10 opposing fighters who acknowledge, or even praise my ability to hit them, offset the 2 who don't take the hit.

                    Of course last year at GW in the ravine, I shot one "eastern" Crown in the chest, just below his gorget. Didn't take it. A big Calontiri said "Man, that sucks". "I'm gonna go let him magesty know he just got shot". I ducked in between the lines, went over 6 feet to where he was, and shot him in the same spot from 4 feet away (then got the heck out of there FAST). We can hit harder, there is just a bit more risk of getting hit. :)

                    I guess what I really want to say (and not specifically to you, Tom) is that CA isn't for everybody. The arrows have changed and while they don't fly as fast, far or accurately as they did in the "old days", please try not to slag the weapons form for those of us still passionate about it. It's hard enough getting new people interested without them getting all the negativity _from archers_. I've recently switched from SCA target archery to FITA (full olympic setup). When I encounter new SCA archers, I don't talk down to them, their equipment, or how inaccurate the arrows are. I encourage them, and help them as I can.

                    William Arwemakere

                    On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:48 AM, Colonel <lehrerprofessoren@...> wrote:
                     

                    Cog,
                    That was a hilarious last part of your note. I'll have to try that "logic" on a marshall. lol

                    But reading what you said about combat archery, well, I had come the same conclusion about sticking to target, but now I don't feel like so much of a "coward". I have gone over the rules about being an archer in the battles as it sounded like fun, but then I was thinking, "Man, I would really be vunerable out there with some younger crazy who really wanted to whack me". Just last night I got knocked silly like a bowling pin by one of my horses who decided to run to the barn for dinner and didn't see or care that I was in the way. As I lay on the ground waiting for the "fog" to clear I was thinking, "Man, I gotta stop getting myself hurt, lol" Well, today I'm a little sore, but quite convinced that I will stick to target archery, especially after reading of your experiences. What's the old saying - "I'm "getting" too old for this crap"? I think I'll continue to take my chances with my "pets" but leave the combat fighting to the younger guys. It does look like fun, though. I wish I had started SCA twenty years ago.

                    Tom


                  • Hugh
                    ... Could you describe these logs please. Things like diameter and material of the shaft and how the tip is constructed. Hugh Prescott
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 11, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 11/10/2011 10:18 AM, Bill Tait wrote:
                      > Shooting these "logs" out of a 30 pound (maximum draw weight for a
                      > handbow) really is not terribly effective. Crossbow bolts tend to
                      > windmill too.

                      Could you describe these "logs" please.

                      Things like diameter and material of the shaft and how the tip is
                      constructed.

                      Hugh Prescott
                    • Des & Jan Howard
                      Master Hugh I have a feeling Cog was exaggerating somewhat for the purpose of illustrating discontent with CA. Not reporting illegal weapons use :) Regards
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 11, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Master Hugh
                        I have a feeling Cog was exaggerating somewhat for the
                        purpose of illustrating discontent with CA.
                        Not reporting illegal weapons use :)
                        Regards
                        Ranif

                        On 12/11/2011 4:06 AM, Hugh wrote:
                        > Could you describe these "logs" please.
                        > Things like diameter and material of the shaft
                        > and how the tip is constructed.

                        -32.656072 149.840624
                      • Des & Jan Howard
                        Cog Thank you for the reply & explanation. Briefly, as a Lochacian plumed combatant I wear the same minimum armour as a heavy, may shoot, & be shot, but, not
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 11, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Cog
                          Thank you for the reply & explanation.
                          Briefly, as a Lochacian plumed combatant I wear the
                          same minimum armour as a heavy, may shoot, & be shot,
                          but, not poked or thumped. Minimum range to shootee 5
                          metres, (~16.5'). I may be killed by a heavy
                          approaching to 5 metres, presenting their weapon &
                          declaring, "Archer, you are dead". Personally I
                          wouldn't object to a "gift tap", but, it's not in our laws.
                          Lochacian wars are small, participants are rarely total
                          strangers, as I usually shoot counter battery or self
                          defence, shruggers have not been a problem for me.
                          Lochacian shafts speak with authority. Anyway, it would
                          be their honour lying in the dust, not mine.
                          Regards
                          Ranif

                          On 11/11/2011 11:51 PM, The Greys wrote:
                          > In those days an archer could be killed when a heavy ran up on them
                          > and from as far away as 10 feet pointed their sword at them and said "Archer, you are dead".
                          > Thus the rule then of an archer NOT being able to shoot closer than 10 feet.
                          > The archer would then acknowledge the "kill" and place their bow on their head and
                          > walk off the field. This got bantied back and for a bit and is now full contact kill.
                          > That is, a heavy can run up on an archer and give them a whack to "kill" them.

                          > But what really sucked the fun out of combat archery for us was the
                          > fighters who simply would not acknowledge an archer hit.

                          -32.656072 149.840624
                        • Des & Jan Howard
                          Tom Apart from owies produced by arrow whacks the biggest danger, for me, is from running backwards into a tree/shrub or another archer. During a war this
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 11, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Tom
                            Apart from "owies" produced by arrow whacks the biggest
                            danger, for me, is from running backwards into a
                            tree/shrub or another archer. During a war this year I
                            backed off hurriedly from a stalking heavy, found a
                            large tree & went sprawling. The heavy came up, stood
                            over me then walked off. During a break he approached
                            me & said, "After you crunched the tree I raced up to
                            help, you were lying there, imitating a starfish,
                            laughing your head off, I thought, 'He's good', & went
                            back to the battle". Good times :-D
                            I'm 68, started 2 years ago.
                            Ranif

                            On 12/11/2011 2:48 AM, Colonel wrote:
                            > What's the old saying -
                            > "I'm "getting" too old for this crap"?
                            > I think I'll continue to take my chances with my "pets"
                            > but leave the combat fighting to the younger guys.
                            > It does look like fun, though.
                            > I wish I had started SCA twenty years ago.

                            -32.656072 149.840624
                          • Hugh Prescott
                            Wasn t even thinking about / concerned about illegal weapons. Was wondering if he got hold of some Sil-O-flex tubed missiles and was trying to use them with a
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 11, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Wasn't even thinking about / concerned about illegal weapons.

                              Was wondering if he got hold of some Sil-O-flex tubed missiles and was
                              trying to use them with a 30 pound bow.

                              I am from Calontir & we only allow tube & tennis ball missiles. Ultra
                              safe as they meet the inch and a quarter standards for heavy weapons. No
                              APD's needed.

                              Because of the distance I suspect that not a lot of the SCA down under
                              have seen too many tubed missiles.

                              Hugh


                              On 11/11/2011 2:36 PM, Des & Jan Howard wrote:
                              > Master Hugh
                              > I have a feeling Cog was exaggerating somewhat for the
                              > purpose of illustrating discontent with CA.
                              > Not reporting illegal weapons use :)
                              > Regards
                              > Ranif
                              >
                              > On 12/11/2011 4:06 AM, Hugh wrote:
                              >> Could you describe these "logs" please.
                              >> Things like diameter and material of the shaft
                              >> and how the tip is constructed.
                              > -32.656072 149.840624
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                            • Des & Jan Howard
                              Master Hugh Having to use a 50lb bow so that tube/tennis ball missiles give a worthwhile performance it is unlikely that stay-at-home Lochacian CAs will ever
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 11, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Master Hugh
                                Having to use a 50lb bow so that tube/tennis ball
                                missiles give a worthwhile performance it is unlikely
                                that 'stay-at-home' Lochacian CAs will ever see or
                                use...or want to see or use tubed missiles.
                                Regards
                                Ranif

                                On 12/11/2011 10:33 AM, Hugh Prescott wrote:
                                > I am from Calontir& we only allow tube& tennis ball missiles. Ultra
                                > safe as they meet the inch and a quarter standards for heavy weapons. No
                                > APD's needed.
                                >
                                > Because of the distance I suspect that not a lot of the SCA down under
                                > have seen too many tubed missiles.

                                -32.656072 149.840624
                              • bluecat@neo.rr.com
                                Before the list takes off on what ought to be discussed on the SCA- Missile Combat list, lets dispense with a few myths. As always - check YOUR kingdom rules-
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 12, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Before the list takes off on what ought to be discussed on the SCA- Missile Combat list, lets dispense with a
                                  few myths.
                                  As always - check YOUR kingdom rules- these rules are general for Pennsic/ Middle Kingdom

                                  1) Firing range for a combat arrow- the arrow or bolt clears the weapon - that means you *can* fire at someone
                                  1 yard away.

                                  2) Fighters can *not* declare you as dead. You may be struck, you have the option to yield. You can't defend
                                  yourself with your bow or crossbow for safety reasons. Use a BACK UP weapon- ( thrown objects are the best
                                  choice and legal to carry by SCA rules, but this rule is not allowed at Pennsic.) The back up weapon rules
                                  vary by Kingdom some. Check the rules!

                                  3) Combat bolts that tumble ( windmill) are unsafe and will fail to pass - if they are that short you need a
                                  longer bolt. Bolts of 1 foot in length to 15 inches work fine and do not tumble- makes no difference if they
                                  are fiberglass shafted or tubular. If you folks in Lochac do not use APD's, I can tell you they sure stabilize
                                  an arrow or bolt made from fiberglass. I'd use them if you have this problem.

                                  4) Some fighters do not like to take arrows or bolts as hits - but that's OK, just shoot them again or pick
                                  another target. However- don't be a fool about it. Don't aim for the groin. Don't yell and complain at them.
                                  There is a learning curve going on, fighters have gotten much better at taking arrow blows in the last 4 years
                                  than they did before.

                                  5) A combat archer is a heavy fighter- like any other heavy fighter, just carrying a different weapon form
                                  into battle. When you save a member of your unit by hitting an enemy with an arrow- that is remembered.

                                  For the record - Thanks to stringent inspection of arrows and bolts and equipment there has been NO combat
                                  archery incidents or issues on the field at Pennsic for the last 3 wars. I assure you, we check thousands of
                                  arrows and bolts to do this job at Pennsic. More help is always welcome.

                                  Dirk Edward of Frisia
                                • Richard
                                  Dirk- Thank you for so eloquently addressing the many myths as I was about to do prior to reading your post. I would like to add as first a heavy fighter and a
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 12, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dirk- 
                                    Thank you for so eloquently addressing the many myths as I was about to do prior to reading your post.
                                    I would like to add as first a heavy fighter and a combat archer that it difficult to determine a times in the heat of battle that a bolt/arrow has hit you. I wear full plate at times and have mistaken a strike from an arrow for the clank of my armor or and incidental bump of a comrades weapon. I take no offense to an archer politely pointing out that it was his arrow that struck me- POLITELY.
                                    Simply waving at the fighter usually does the trick but remember that it is HIS decision to take the shot... NEVER, NEVER CALL HIM DEAD. Just shoot him again or move to another target.
                                    Frankly I have never had a problem in well over ten years with the tragectory of well made fiberglas CA arrows or bolts.  Granted the fly like logs but good archers learn to compensate.

                                    Richard Woodenbridge OoA, East (Acre)

                                    Sent from my iPhone

                                    On Nov 12, 2011, at 9:34 AM, "bluecat@..." <bluecat@...> wrote:

                                     

                                    Before the list takes off on what ought to be discussed on the SCA- Missile Combat list, lets dispense with a
                                    few myths.
                                    As always - check YOUR kingdom rules- these rules are general for Pennsic/ Middle Kingdom

                                    1) Firing range for a combat arrow- the arrow or bolt clears the weapon - that means you *can* fire at someone
                                    1 yard away.

                                    2) Fighters can *not* declare you as dead. You may be struck, you have the option to yield. You can't defend
                                    yourself with your bow or crossbow for safety reasons. Use a BACK UP weapon- ( thrown objects are the best
                                    choice and legal to carry by SCA rules, but this rule is not allowed at Pennsic.) The back up weapon rules
                                    vary by Kingdom some. Check the rules!

                                    3) Combat bolts that tumble ( windmill) are unsafe and will fail to pass - if they are that short you need a
                                    longer bolt. Bolts of 1 foot in length to 15 inches work fine and do not tumble- makes no difference if they
                                    are fiberglass shafted or tubular. If you folks in Lochac do not use APD's, I can tell you they sure stabilize
                                    an arrow or bolt made from fiberglass. I'd use them if you have this problem.

                                    4) Some fighters do not like to take arrows or bolts as hits - but that's OK, just shoot them again or pick
                                    another target. However- don't be a fool about it. Don't aim for the groin. Don't yell and complain at them.
                                    There is a learning curve going on, fighters have gotten much better at taking arrow blows in the last 4 years
                                    than they did before.

                                    5) A combat archer is a heavy fighter- like any other heavy fighter, just carrying a different weapon form
                                    into battle. When you save a member of your unit by hitting an enemy with an arrow- that is remembered.

                                    For the record - Thanks to stringent inspection of arrows and bolts and equipment there has been NO combat
                                    archery incidents or issues on the field at Pennsic for the last 3 wars. I assure you, we check thousands of
                                    arrows and bolts to do this job at Pennsic. More help is always welcome.

                                    Dirk Edward of Frisia

                                  • Des & Jan Howard
                                    Dirk Thank you for your comments. ... The thread has gone far afield, but alas, such is the nature of threads. ... Wiggling or porpoising target arrows, yes.
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 12, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dirk
                                      Thank you for your comments.
                                      On 13/11/2011 1:34 AM, bluecat@... wrote:
                                      > Before the list takes off on what ought to be discussed on the SCA- Missile Combat list
                                      The thread has gone far afield, but alas, such is the
                                      nature of threads.

                                      > Combat bolts that tumble ( windmill) are unsafe and will fail to pass
                                      > If you folks in Lochac do not use APD's, I can tell you they sure stabilize
                                      > an arrow or bolt made from fiberglass. I'd use them if you have this problem.
                                      Wiggling or porpoising target arrows, yes.
                                      I've never seen, or heard of tumbling wooden combat
                                      arrows. If Lochac accepted fibreglass shafting
                                      stabilisation might a problem to consider.
                                      But APD's, never!
                                      Ranif

                                      -32.656072 149.840624
                                    • The Greys
                                      OK, a little clean up here. Logs - By that I mean a combat arrow is a fiberglass shaft with a Baldar blunt and an APD on the back end taped 40 ways to Sunday
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 13, 2011
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        OK, a little "clean up" here.

                                        Logs - By that I mean a combat arrow is a fiberglass shaft with a Baldar blunt and an APD on the back end taped 40 ways to Sunday with fiberglass strapping tape. I'm all about the safety requiring this but the net result is s shaft what weights considerably more than a target shaft. Then CAs are limited to a 30 pound draw weight for handbows. So CAs shoot very heavy shafts from an under powered bow. Not complaining here 'cuz I understand the absolute need for safety, just saying. That is one reason my lady and I switched to crossbows in our CA days. A bit more power but most importantly, we could stand there all day long waiting for the heavy to get tired of holding his shield up, then shoot him!

                                        William is absolutely correct. As my lady says "Combat Archery is the biggest high you will have without using street drugs." That may be a bit rough but it is true. Also, not every heavy is a curmudgeon and out to whack revenge on every archer they encounter. Some have honor and simply tap an archer, usually on the helm and say "Archer you are dead". But having talked with many knights and heavy fighters, they really do hate archers and many of them are looking to "even the score" when they get a chance to take one out.

                                        Now as for exaggerating, nope. True renditions of battle experiences. As for not being favorable to CA or talking it down to new folks interested, hardly. In fact in my area I have offered to be a training marshal for the discipline. Can we be honest here? Most "field generals" have no clue how to effectively use archers in a battle. To quote my former knight, "We'll go over there and kill people". Great for a heavy, not so good for an archer. Again from my former CA days, my lady and I fought with a house hold that practiced group tactics. We would stand inside their group and they would point out targets. We would step outside the group and kill the target. When a heavy tried to run us down we would simply run back inside the group. SCA rules of engagement said a heavy had to engage any heavy that was between the attacker and the archer. Thus the best field method for a combat archer is two archers and one shield man. One archer does not fire until the other is loaded and ready to go. This way a shaft is always ready to be launched. My lady and I practiced this method and it served us quite well on the battle field.

                                        So I still say, if you have never tried combat archery and think it might be fun, give it a go. It really is GREAT fun. I just choose to spend my archery time on the target range these days.

                                        cog

                                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Hugh <hugh@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On 11/10/2011 10:18 AM, Bill Tait wrote:
                                        > > Shooting these "logs" out of a 30 pound (maximum draw weight for a
                                        > > handbow) really is not terribly effective. Crossbow bolts tend to
                                        > > windmill too.
                                        >
                                        > Could you describe these "logs" please.
                                        >
                                        > Things like diameter and material of the shaft and how the tip is
                                        > constructed.
                                        >
                                        > Hugh Prescott
                                        >
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.