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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: cresting

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  • Taslen
    Aye the detail is not the best for sure   Gaelen From: James Koch To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 10:30 PM
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 7, 2011
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      Aye the detail is not the best for sure
       
      Gaelen

      From: James Koch <alchem@...>
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 10:30 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: cresting

       
      Gentlemen & Ladies, 
      >
      I went to the CMA site, but the image is not detailed enough to show the bolts.  I guess I'll have to trek back to the museum for better detail.
      >
      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
      >
      >
      >At 10:21 PM 9/7/2011, you wrote:
       

      If you just search for the painting name you will find a PDF from the museum showing the painting.
       
      Gaelen

      From: Dan Stratton <agincort@...>
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 9:54 PM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: cresting

       
      >If you have any documentation for cresting I would be most interested in it.

      >Thanks,
      >cog

      For what it's worth,
      At the Cleveland Museum of Art, in a German paiting from the 1540s, the hunting scene has a hunt with numerous crossbow shooters - close inspection shows the bolts marked with colored banding. The painting is "Hunting Near Hartenfels Castle" by Lucas Cranach the Elder (1472-1553)
      Date: 1540
      ...........................
      Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe
      Midrealm Forester - OP
      "- bows of carved wood strong for use, with well-seasoned strings of hemp, and arrows sharp-pointed whizzing in flight."




    • James of the Lake
      I had asked much the sane question as did Cog while back, then dug up some email from this list (ca. 2001) that cited several web pages that had since
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 7, 2011
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        I had asked much the sane question as did Cog  while back, then dug up some email from this list (ca. 2001) that cited several web pages that had since disappeared.  Carolus von Eulenhorst then chased down the new URLs and wrote:

        I found the first at http://www.timkenmuseum.org/1- italian-boltraffio.html

        This arrow does indeed appear to be crested as we think of it.

        I found the second image at www.wga.hu.  I cannot get a direct link to
        it but the piece is Amor Victorious by CARAVAGGIO.

        This image appears to me to show crown dipped arrows (which can be seen
        as a simple form of cresting) but the white lines could well be the
        threads tying the fletching on.  One point against this is that there is
        no corresponding line at the far end of the fletch as would be expected
        if the artist took the trouble to show the leading thread.This also
        shows evidence of colored fletchings - black and red.

        Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf has recently written an article on period shoots which
        I have placed on my web site at
        http://rosesandivy.net
        or
        http://rosesandivy.net/1draft. doc  (for those who have problems with the
        first link.

        It has a number of period illustrations.  I note that many of them are
        woodcuts or have arrows depicted with shafts to small to show cresting.
        Several indicate that a number of archers were shooting at the same
        target at the same time so some means of differentiating the arrows
        would be required.  As there is little documentary evidence of the
        particulars of archery in period  it is clear that this is a case in
        which a lack of evidence does not prove lack of existence for cresting.
        It would be a good class with the disclaimer that we don't really know
        if it was used in period or not.
        Carolus

        James

        On Sep 7, 2011, at 6:54 PM, Dan Stratton wrote:



        >If you have any documentation for cresting I would be most interested in it.

        >Thanks,
        >cog

        For what it's worth,
        At the Cleveland Museum of Art, in a German paiting from the 1540s, the hunting scene has a hunt with numerous crossbow shooters - close inspection shows the bolts marked with colored banding. The painting is "Hunting Near Hartenfels Castle" by Lucas Cranach the Elder (1472-1553)

        Date: 1540

        ........................... 
        Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe 
        Midrealm Forester - OP
        "- bows of carved wood strong for use, with well-seasoned strings of hemp, and arrows sharp-pointed whizzing in flight."



      • James of the Lake
        Drat! The Timken link went bad again. Here is the earlier half of the discussion: I d asked: Do you have any evidence that cresting was a period practice?
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 7, 2011
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          Drat!  The Timken link went bad again.  Here is the earlier half of the discussion:


          I'd asked:

          "Do you have any evidence that cresting was a period practice?"

          But here are a couple of old email messages posted on SCA-Archery that I saved from 2001 that gives some evidence (unfortunately the links given are no longer valid):


          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Are crested shafts 'period'?

          "Portrait of a Youth Holding an Arrow" by Giovanni Antonio Boltraffio (1467-1516) shows a young nobleman holding a crested arrow:http://gort.ucsd.edu/sj/ timken/t-bltrfo.html . The oil painting is at the Timken Museum of Art in Balboa Park, San Diego. I believe the museum has slides available for sale. The arrow is thought to be allegorical, but I can't think of any reason why the artist would use cresting if it didn't exist. The cresting pattern may be a little hard to see on the web page, but it is clearly visible in person. The Timken has several works of art from SCA period and is well worth a visit, and admission is free. 

          Brighid ni Muirenn


          [Have you seen this painting, Suzanne?]

          *****************

          > I found this picture on the internet:
          >
          >
          l&find=arrows
          >
          > It looks to me like the arrows are crown dipped, and there is a white line
          painted on the edge of the crown dip.  It is a rather simple form of
          cresting, but very much like it is done in the SCA. Does anyone concur? or
          am I reading too much into the painting?
          > RtU

          Nope look like they are crowned and crested, one arrow has a black crown the
          other red.  and smaller lines like cresting unless that could be the threads
          tying the fletchings on.  And the pointy end, seems to be darker too weather
          that be from shadow, I can not tell.

          Simon Hondy
          Baile na Scolairi
          Mid Middle

          James

        • Joe Klovance
          Do you mean this portrait? http://www.artcyclopedia.org/art/giovanni-antonio-boltraffio-saint.jpg If that is not the portrait please ignore the rest of this
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 7, 2011
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            Do you mean this portrait? http://www.artcyclopedia.org/art/giovanni-antonio-boltraffio-saint.jpg

            If that is not the portrait please ignore the rest of this post. Interesting this is that the quills on the fetching is pointed in the wrong direction. There is also no visible means of supporting the "arrow" in that position. The left arm would be in a different position. I think that is al light spear and not an arrow.

            Gryffyd


            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            From: jotl2008@...
            Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 20:13:06 -0700
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: cresting

             

            Drat!  The Timken link went bad again.  Here is the earlier half of the discussion:


            I'd asked:

            "Do you have any evidence that cresting was a period practice?"

            But here are a couple of old email messages posted on SCA-Archery that I saved from 2001 that gives some evidence (unfortunately the links given are no longer valid):


            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Are crested shafts 'period'?

            "Portrait of a Youth Holding an Arrow" by Giovanni Antonio Boltraffio (1467-1516) shows a young nobleman holding a crested arrow:http://gort.ucsd.edu/sj/ timken/t-bltrfo.html . The oil painting is at the Timken Museum of Art in Balboa Park, San Diego. I believe the museum has slides available for sale. The arrow is thought to be allegorical, but I can't think of any reason why the artist would use cresting if it didn't exist. The cresting pattern may be a little hard to see on the web page, but it is clearly visible in person. The Timken has several works of art from SCA period and is well worth a visit, and admission is free. 

            Brighid ni Muirenn


            [Have you seen this painting, Suzanne?]

            *****************

            > I found this picture on the internet:
            >
            >
            l&find=arrows
            >
            > It looks to me like the arrows are crown dipped, and there is a white line
            painted on the edge of the crown dip.  It is a rather simple form of
            cresting, but very much like it is done in the SCA. Does anyone concur? or
            am I reading too much into the painting?
            > RtU

            Nope look like they are crowned and crested, one arrow has a black crown the
            other red.  and smaller lines like cresting unless that could be the threads
            tying the fletchings on.  And the pointy end, seems to be darker too weather
            that be from shadow, I can not tell.

            Simon Hondy
            Baile na Scolairi
            Mid Middle

            James


          • James of the Lake
            And I don t see any cresting in the shaft either! James
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 7, 2011
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              And I don't see any cresting in the shaft either!

              James

              On Sep 7, 2011, at 9:40 PM, Joe Klovance wrote:



              Do you mean this portrait? http://www.artcyclopedia.org/art/giovanni-antonio-boltraffio-saint.jpg

              If that is not the portrait please ignore the rest of this post. Interesting this is that the quills on the fetching is pointed in the wrong direction. There is also no visible means of supporting the "arrow" in that position. The left arm would be in a different position. I think that is al light spear and not an arrow.

              Gryffyd


            • Joe Klovance
              Here is a closeup of the fletching . http://www.mythrealmaille.com/images/sca/cresting.JPG There is some colour banding but it is difficult to see. There is
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 7, 2011
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                Here is a closeup of the "fletching". http://www.mythrealmaille.com/images/sca/cresting.JPG

                There is some colour banding but it is difficult to see. There is another anomaly; The shaft gets bigger below the "fletching". I have never seen that on an arrow. I have seen javelins with a heavier shaft attached to a lighter top section; a bit like a pilum. To me it looks more and more like a javelin or spear.

                Gryffyd


                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                From: jotl2008@...
                Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 21:55:19 -0700
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: cresting

                 
                And I don't see any cresting in the shaft either!

                James

                On Sep 7, 2011, at 9:40 PM, Joe Klovance wrote:



                Do you mean this portrait? http://www.artcyclopedia.org/art/giovanni-antonio-boltraffio-saint.jpg

                If that is not the portrait please ignore the rest of this post. Interesting this is that the quills on the fetching is pointed in the wrong direction. There is also no visible means of supporting the "arrow" in that position. The left arm would be in a different position. I think that is al light spear and not an arrow.

                Gryffyd



              • Karl W. Evoy
                Last time I was at the Museum (a couple of months ago), the painting was not on display; they had rearrainged the armour court. I took a number of pics at
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 8, 2011
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                  Last time I was at the Museum (a couple of months ago), the painting was not on display; they had rearrainged the armour court.
                  I took a number of pics at close range before that, but when I searched my digital pics just now, they were'nt there. I must have used the film camera (how retro of me). I'll try to find the prints, but can't give you an estimate of that (house cleaning).
                  Ancel
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 10:30 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: cresting

                   

                  Gentlemen & Ladies, 
                  >
                  I went to the CMA site, but the image is not detailed enough to show the bolts.  I guess I'll have to trek back to the museum for better detail.
                  >
                  Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                  >
                  >
                  >At 10:21 PM 9/7/2011, you wrote:



                  If you just search for the painting name you will find a PDF from the museum showing the painting.
                   
                  Gaelen

                  From: Dan Stratton <agincort@...>
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 9:54 PM
                  Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: cresting

                   
                  >If you have any documentation for cresting I would be most interested in it.

                  >Thanks,
                  >cog

                  For what it's worth,
                  At the Cleveland Museum of Art, in a German paiting from the 1540s, the hunting scene has a hunt with numerous crossbow shooters - close inspection shows the bolts marked with colored banding. The painting is "Hunting Near Hartenfels Castle" by Lucas Cranach the Elder (1472-1553)
                  Date: 1540
                  ...........................
                  Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe
                  Midrealm Forester - OP
                  "- bows of carved wood strong for use, with well-seasoned strings of hemp, and arrows sharp-pointed whizzing in flight."


                • greg u
                  I see that anally retentive SCA Documenturds are here trying to muddy up reality with supposed Documents . Documented by whom? Some know nothing court hanger
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 8, 2011
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                    I see that anally retentive SCA Documenturds are here trying to muddy up reality with supposed "Documents". Documented by whom? Some know nothing court hanger on that did not have anything to do for a day in 1300s?
                    And that court jester becomes the Knowing all Authority for banding on into infinity; just because he thought he would write something down for a gag. Stupid!
                    Do the work in the period way with period material---not with menards wood and elmers glue and plastic nocks---and after a little while you might understand what it means to make arrows.
                    The reality is "Good" arrows were hard to make and one would only use good arrows in a contest with other archers. Since where you lived will dictate the type of birds you can get fetching from most of all the contestants of an archery shoot off would have the same type of bird feathers as fletching. (Undocumented Reality) Maybe some would use robin feathers instead of seagull feathers or maybe some would cut the feathers a little different to retrieve their own arrows but conflicts on field would be inevitable. Either honestly or maliciously, arguments about who's arrow it was would have occurred since from the earliest time of archery. Say 10,000 yrs ago (undocumented). And when there was conflicts it would escalate to a fight with fists or knives and then there would be injuries to both sides. (undocumented)
                    This is not a good thing for social order or regional stability! Hence based on the reality of the arrow making process and using rational logic and personal experience in conflict resolution I hypothesize that plant dye colors were used on arrow shafts and maybe fetching from since the earliest time of archery contests. Probably before the Sumerians were around and Certainly before the britans and picts paddled over to that miserable island. (undocumented reality)

                    Balac the period wood worker
                    http://scawood.webs.com

                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Joe Klovance <jklovanc@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Here is a closeup of the "fletching". http://www.mythrealmaille.com/images/sca/cresting.JPG
                    >
                    > There is some colour banding but it is difficult to see. There is another anomaly; The shaft gets bigger below the "fletching". I have never seen that on an arrow. I have seen javelins with a heavier shaft attached to a lighter top section; a bit like a pilum. To me it looks more and more like a javelin or spear.
                    >
                    > Gryffyd
                    >
                    > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: jotl2008@...
                    > Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 21:55:19 -0700
                    > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: cresting
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    > And I don't see any cresting in the shaft either!
                    > James
                    > On Sep 7, 2011, at 9:40 PM, Joe Klovance wrote:
                    >
                    > Do you mean this portrait? http://www.artcyclopedia.org/art/giovanni-antonio-boltraffio-saint.jpg
                    >
                    > If that is not the portrait please ignore the rest of this post. Interesting this is that the quills on the fetching is pointed in the wrong direction. There is also no visible means of supporting the "arrow" in that position. The left arm would be in a different position. I think that is al light spear and not an arrow.
                    >
                    > Gryffyd
                    >
                  • John Edgerton
                    Where it gets larger below the fletching could be a bulbous nock to allow for a thicker string than the shaft by its self would allow. Perhaps in this case not
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 8, 2011
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                    Where it gets larger below the fletching could be a bulbous nock to allow for a thicker string than the shaft by its self would allow. Perhaps in this case not tapered at the base of the nock.
                  • John Edgerton
                    I do hope that this post was done tongue in cheek. Even so, it goes over the line for politeness for this group. Continued posts in this vein will cause the
                    Message 10 of 25 , Sep 8, 2011
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                      I do hope that this post was done tongue in cheek.  Even so, it goes over the line for politeness for this group. Continued posts in this vein will cause the poster to placed on moderated status.  I have no problem with the theories expressed, just the "Documenturds" and confrontational altitude. 

                      Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, group owner

                      On Sep 8, 2011, at 8:17 AM, greg u wrote:

                       

                      I see that anally retentive SCA Documenturds are here trying to muddy up reality with supposed "Documents". Documented by whom? Some know nothing court hanger on that did not have anything to do for a day in 1300s?
                      And that court jester becomes the Knowing all Authority for banding on into infinity; just because he thought he would write something down for a gag. Stupid!
                      Do the work in the period way with period material---not with menards wood and elmers glue and plastic nocks---and after a little while you might understand what it means to make arrows.
                      The reality is "Good" arrows were hard to make and one would only use good arrows in a contest with other archers. Since where you lived will dictate the type of birds you can get fetching from most of all the contestants of an archery shoot off would have the same type of bird feathers as fletching. (Undocumented Reality) Maybe some would use robin feathers instead of seagull feathers or maybe some would cut the feathers a little different to retrieve their own arrows but conflicts on field would be inevitable. Either honestly or maliciously, arguments about who's arrow it was would have occurred since from the earliest time of archery. Say 10,000 yrs ago (undocumented). And when there was conflicts it would escalate to a fight with fists or knives and then there would be injuries to both sides. (undocumented)
                      This is not a good thing for social order or regional stability! Hence based on the reality of the arrow making process and using rational logic and personal experience in conflict resolution I hypothesize that plant dye colors were used on arrow shafts and maybe fetching from since the earliest time of archery contests. Probably before the Sumerians were around and Certainly before the britans and picts paddled over to that miserable island. (undocumented reality)

                      Balac the period wood worker
                      http://scawood.webs.com

                      -

                    • Brighid ni Muirenn
                      The Boltraffio portrait at the Timken Museum is now at http://www.timkenmuseum.org/collection/italian/portrait-youth-holding-arrow. Giovanni Antonio
                      Message 11 of 25 , Sep 8, 2011
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                        The Boltraffio portrait at the Timken Museum is now at http://www.timkenmuseum.org/collection/italian/portrait-youth-holding-arrow . Giovanni Antonio Boltraffio, Portrait of a Youth Holding an Arrow, c1500-1510. Brighid ni Muirenn

                        On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Dan Stratton <agincort@...> wrote:
                         

                        >If you have any documentation for cresting I would be most interested in it.

                        >Thanks,
                        >cog

                        For what it's worth,
                        At the Cleveland Museum of Art, in a German paiting from the 1540s, the hunting scene has a hunt with numerous crossbow shooters - close inspection shows the bolts marked with colored banding. The painting is "Hunting Near Hartenfels Castle" by Lucas Cranach the Elder (1472-1553)

                        Date: 1540

                        ........................... 
                        Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe
                        Midrealm Forester - OP
                        "- bows of carved wood strong for use, with well-seasoned strings of hemp, and arrows sharp-pointed whizzing in flight."



                      • Nest verch Tangwistel
                        Some people prefer just guessing so they don t have to do any research, and other prefer having some sort of proof that something was done. There is no reason
                        Message 12 of 25 , Sep 8, 2011
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                          Some people prefer just guessing so they don't have to do any research, and other prefer having some sort of proof that something was done. There is no reason to denigrate anyone for their personnal preference.
                           
                          I remember reading a 16th century book that talked about which part of the animal the was awarded to the person whose arrow made the kill when hunting with the king. They specifically mentioned the person's mark on the arrow which indicated the owner. Unfortunately, I do not remember what source that was from. I will see if I can find it again for the people who would prefer not to just make random guesses.
                           
                          Nest

                          --- On Thu, 9/8/11, greg u <balacorelanger@...> wrote:

                          From: greg u <balacorelanger@...>
                          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: cresting
                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, September 8, 2011, 11:17 AM

                           
                          I see that anally retentive SCA Documenturds are here trying to muddy up reality with supposed "Documents". Documented by whom? Some know nothing court hanger on that did not have anything to do for a day in 1300s?
                          And that court jester becomes the Knowing all Authority for banding on into infinity; just because he thought he would write something down for a gag. Stupid!
                          Do the work in the period way with period material---not with menards wood and elmers glue and plastic nocks---and after a little while you might understand what it means to make arrows.
                          The reality is "Good" arrows were hard to make and one would only use good arrows in a contest with other archers. Since where you lived will dictate the type of birds you can get fetching from most of all the contestants of an archery shoot off would have the same type of bird feathers as fletching. (Undocumented Reality) Maybe some would use robin feathers instead of seagull feathers or maybe some would cut the feathers a little different to retrieve their own arrows but conflicts on field would be inevitable. Either honestly or maliciously, arguments about who's arrow it was would have occurred since from the earliest time of archery. Say 10,000 yrs ago (undocumented). And when there was conflicts it would escalate to a fight with fists or knives and then there would be injuries to both sides. (undocumented)
                          This is not a good thing for social order or regional stability! Hence based on the reality of the arrow making process and using rational logic and personal experience in conflict resolution I hypothesize that plant dye colors were used on arrow shafts and maybe fetching from since the earliest time of archery contests. Probably before the Sumerians were around and Certainly before the britans and picts paddled over to that miserable island. (undocumented reality)

                          Balac the period wood worker
                          http://scawood.webs.com

                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Joe Klovance <jklovanc@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Here is a closeup of the "fletching". http://www.mythrealmaille.com/images/sca/cresting.JPG
                          >
                          > There is some colour banding but it is difficult to see. There is another anomaly; The shaft gets bigger below the "fletching". I have never seen that on an arrow. I have seen javelins with a heavier shaft attached to a lighter top section; a bit like a pilum. To me it looks more and more like a javelin or spear.
                          >
                          > Gryffyd
                          >
                          > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: jotl2008@...
                          > Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 21:55:19 -0700
                          > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: cresting
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          > And I don't see any cresting in the shaft either!
                          > James
                          > On Sep 7, 2011, at 9:40 PM, Joe Klovance wrote:
                          >
                          > Do you mean this portrait? http://www.artcyclopedia.org/art/giovanni-antonio-boltraffio-saint.jpg
                          >
                          > If that is not the portrait please ignore the rest of this post. Interesting this is that the quills on the fetching is pointed in the wrong direction. There is also no visible means of supporting the "arrow" in that position. The left arm would be in a different position. I think that is al light spear and not an arrow.
                          >
                          > Gryffyd
                          >

                        • richard johnson
                          I understand the need for cresting, which is why I built a cresting jig and created my own crest based on my arms (black band with white spots with a centers
                          Message 13 of 25 , Sep 8, 2011
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                            I understand the need for cresting, which is why I built a cresting jig and created my own crest based on my arms (black band with white spots with a centers white band with a centered red stripe).
                            But as for historic documentation for cresting????  I have no idea.
                             
                            What we would do is to argue.  Since few of us had uniform arrows, we'd try to choose arrows that matched fletching or shaft color or such so when we argued, I would say "All my arrows have a red nock-feather and white feathers" or some such description.
                            No one bothered to marktheir arrows though once I tried to paint a black oval on my shafts before the fletching..
                             
                            I suppose that is how fletching came to be.
                            But i leave it to the experts on this list to tell us if and how and when.

                            --
                            Rick Johnson
                            http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                            "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither."
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