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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings

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  • John Edgerton
    Agree.... Crossed arrows. Jon
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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      Agree.... Crossed arrows.

      Jon
      On Aug 17, 2011, at 11:22 AM, James Koch wrote:

       

      Gentlemen & Ladies,
      >
      Now that Pennsic is past, I can devote some time to designing the
      archery marshal rings. Some kingdoms have their own archery marshal
      arms, but it is my hope to come up with a design which is acceptable
      across the SCA. This will keep the cost of the rings down since I'll
      be able to make just one pattern and wax mold.
      >
      We are already making the rings with the single pheon. My thought
      was to make a ring with two crossed arrows for the marshals. This is
      in keeping with the crossed swords of the armored combatant marshals
      and the crossed rapiers of the fencing marshals. Another option is
      to simply enamel the single pheon ring with a red shield background
      and a colored pheon to indicate a marshal.
      >
      What are other people's thoughts and preferences?
      >
      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


    • James Koch
      Gentlemen & Ladies, ... What about the background enamel color? Is red acceptable? The silver arrows will show up great on a bright red background. The red
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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        Gentlemen & Ladies,
        >
        What about the background enamel color?  Is red acceptable?  The silver arrows will show up great on a bright red background.  The red will also be visible from a distance.  Other options are black, green, yellow, or orange.  Blue and purple are taken and white doesn't provide good contrast for the silver arrows.   
        >
        Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        >
        >
        >  At 04:44 PM 8/17/2011, you wrote:
         


        Agree.... Crossed arrows.

        Jon
        On Aug 17, 2011, at 11:22 AM, James Koch wrote:

         

        Gentlemen & Ladies,
        >
        Now that Pennsic is past, I can devote some time to designing the
        archery marshal rings. Some kingdoms have their own archery marshal
        arms, but it is my hope to come up with a design which is acceptable
        across the SCA. This will keep the cost of the rings down since I'll
        be able to make just one pattern and wax mold.
        >
        We are already making the rings with the single pheon. My thought
        was to make a ring with two crossed arrows for the marshals. This is
        in keeping with the crossed swords of the armored combatant marshals
        and the crossed rapiers of the fencing marshals. Another option is
        to simply enamel the single pheon ring with a red shield background
        and a colored pheon to indicate a marshal.
        >
        What are other people's thoughts and preferences?
        >
        Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"

      • sabre0link
        It s probably a good thing the email I was typing out was eaten by the net... Heavy uses crossed swords, Equestrian uses crossed lances with a horse head
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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          It's probably a good thing the email I was typing out was eaten by the 'net...

          Heavy uses crossed swords, Equestrian uses crossed lances with a horse head facing out above, and I swear I had seen a Rapier/Light one that had crossed rapiers. 

          Crossed arrows is the best choice, following what is used in the other areas.

          What about a sheaf of arrows (a bundle of three arrows), points up? http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/Arrow_sheaf_of.pdf

          Or, add a roundel above the crossed arrows? (to be a target)...

          Just options to make it different from the Army Special Forces logo...

          Adelaide
          Meridies
        • Dearg Ailfredsson
          Green!!!   Dearg. ... Lord Úlfr Rauðskeggr (Dearg) AOA CSO (Yule-fur Rowth-skegg-er) Wolf Red beard 11th century Gall Gaidhel [gall guy-yell] a.k.a.
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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            Green!!!
             
            Dearg.
            >>------>

            Lord Úlfr Rauðskeggr (Dearg) AOA CSO
            (Yule-fur Rowth-skegg-er) "Wolf Red beard"
            11th century Gall Gaidhel [gall guy-yell]
            a.k.a. "Irish Northman"
            Leather Craftsman, Archer, Huntsman and Target Archery M.I.T.
            The Barony of Fenix
            Paid SCA member since 2003


            When you stop challenging yourself, that's as good as you'll ever be.

            From: James Koch <alchem@...>
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 5:09 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings

             
            Gentlemen & Ladies,
            >
            What about the background enamel color?  Is red acceptable?  The silver arrows will show up great on a bright red background.  The red will also be visible from a distance.  Other options are black, green, yellow, or orange.  Blue and purple are taken and white doesn't provide good contrast for the silver arrows.   
            >
            Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
            >
            >
            >  At 04:44 PM 8/17/2011, you wrote:
             


            Agree.... Crossed arrows.

            Jon
            On Aug 17, 2011, at 11:22 AM, James Koch wrote:

             

            Gentlemen & Ladies,
            >
            Now that Pennsic is past, I can devote some time to designing the
            archery marshal rings. Some kingdoms have their own archery marshal
            arms, but it is my hope to come up with a design which is acceptable
            across the SCA. This will keep the cost of the rings down since I'll
            be able to make just one pattern and wax mold.
            >
            We are already making the rings with the single pheon. My thought
            was to make a ring with two crossed arrows for the marshals. This is
            in keeping with the crossed swords of the armored combatant marshals
            and the crossed rapiers of the fencing marshals. Another option is
            to simply enamel the single pheon ring with a red shield background
            and a colored pheon to indicate a marshal.
            >
            What are other people's thoughts and preferences?
            >
            Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"



          • John Edgerton
            Kind of a toss up, but I would go with red. Jon
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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              Kind of a toss up, but I would go with red.

              Jon

              On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:09 PM, James Koch wrote:

               

              Gentlemen & Ladies,
              >
              What about the background enamel color?  Is red acceptable?  The silver arrows will show up great on a bright red background.  The red will also be visible from a distance.  Other options are black, green, yellow, or orange.  Blue and purple are taken and white doesn't provide good contrast for the silver arrows.   
              >
              Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
              >
              >
              >  At 04:44 PM 8/17/2011, you wrote:


            • Ld.blackmoon
              greetings like i said , i like them in several forms, but i caught a lot of flak because of some people that had never been in the military saying it was used
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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                greetings
                 
                like i said , i like them in several forms, but i caught a lot of flak because of some people that had never been in the military saying it was used as part of  one the special forces emblems, and therefore i had no right to use anything that remotely resembled it : (
                 
                Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun .
                Arthur
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 3:39 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings

                 

                Arthur,
                >
                If the field color around the arrows is bright red would that make the design different enough from the special forces symbol?  What about adding the letters SCA or some other symbol or sign?
                >
                I suppose whatever design is eventually chosen, it will conflict with some other groups charge.
                >
                Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                >
                >
                >At 03:47 PM 8/17/2011, you wrote:



                greetings
                 
                while I personally like the crossed arrows designs I have seen, when I proposed using them as a site token or marshal emblem for an archery only event ,
                you would have sworn I was Hitler reborn and as un American as anyone could possibly get because I dare suggest using something some people perceived as being reserved only for members of the us special forces. and thereby disrespecting the us military .......
                 
                so , don't be surprised if you get some negative feedback : (
                 
                Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun .
                Arthur
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: James Koch
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 1:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings



                Gentlemen & Ladies,
                >
                Now that Pennsic is past, I can devote some time to designing the
                archery marshal rings. Some kingdoms have their own archery marshal
                arms, but it is my hope to come up with a design which is acceptable
                across the SCA. This will keep the cost of the rings down since I'll
                be able to make just one pattern and wax mold.
                >
                We are already making the rings with the single pheon. My thought
                was to make a ring with two crossed arrows for the marshals. This is
                in keeping with the crossed swords of the armored combatant marshals
                and the crossed rapiers of the fencing marshals. Another option is
                to simply enamel the single pheon ring with a red shield background
                and a colored pheon to indicate a marshal.
                >
                What are other people's thoughts and preferences?
                >
                Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


                No virus found in this message.
                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3835 - Release Date: 08/15/11


                No virus found in this message.
                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3835 - Release Date: 08/15/11

              • Ld.blackmoon
                greetings red is ok , i personaly prefer black, ; ) but i m known for being opinionated ; ) Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun . Arthur ... From: James Koch To:
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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                  greetings
                   
                  red is ok ,
                  i personaly prefer black, ; )  but i'm known for being opinionated ; )
                  Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun .
                  Arthur
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 4:09 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings

                   

                  Gentlemen & Ladies,
                  >
                  What about the background enamel color?  Is red acceptable?  The silver arrows will show up great on a bright red background.  The red will also be visible from a distance.  Other options are black, green, yellow, or orange.  Blue and purple are taken and white doesn't provide good contrast for the silver arrows.   
                  >
                  Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                  >
                  >
                  >  At 04:44 PM 8/17/2011, you wrote:




                  Agree.... Crossed arrows.

                  Jon
                  On Aug 17, 2011, at 11:22 AM, James Koch wrote:



                  Gentlemen & Ladies,
                  >
                  Now that Pennsic is past, I can devote some time to designing the
                  archery marshal rings. Some kingdoms have their own archery marshal
                  arms, but it is my hope to come up with a design which is acceptable
                  across the SCA. This will keep the cost of the rings down since I'll
                  be able to make just one pattern and wax mold.
                  >
                  We are already making the rings with the single pheon. My thought
                  was to make a ring with two crossed arrows for the marshals. This is
                  in keeping with the crossed swords of the armored combatant marshals
                  and the crossed rapiers of the fencing marshals. Another option is
                  to simply enamel the single pheon ring with a red shield background
                  and a colored pheon to indicate a marshal.
                  >
                  What are other people's thoughts and preferences?
                  >
                  Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


                  No virus found in this message.
                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3835 - Release Date: 08/15/11

                • Joe Klovance
                  This just shows how uninformed many people are. The badge of the US Special Forces is this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Us-special_forces.svg The badge
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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                    This just shows how uninformed many people are. The badge of the US Special Forces is this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Us-special_forces.svg
                    The badge of the 1st Special Forces Regiment is as follows; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SpecialForces_Badge.svg
                    The badge is much more complex than crossed arrows. It is very difficult to confuse a plain crossed arrows with that badge.

                    The crossed arrows is also already used in conjunction with SCA archer. The badge for the An Tir Royal Archer is as follows; http://antir.sca.org/Offices/OfficeBadges/archer.gif

                    Gryffyd ap Llylewyn
                  • loreleiElkins@aol.com
                    ooOOOoo.....Lorelei GREENleafe approves. ... From: Dearg Ailfredsson To: SCA-Archery Sent: Wed, Aug
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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                      ooOOOoo.....Lorelei GREENleafe approves.



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Dearg Ailfredsson <thefenixhuntsman@...>
                      To: SCA-Archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wed, Aug 17, 2011 1:17 pm
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings



                      Green!!!
                       
                      Dearg.
                      >>------>

                      Lord Úlfr Rauðskeggr (Dearg) AOA CSO
                      (Yule-fur Rowth-skegg-er) "Wolf Red beard"
                      11th century Gall Gaidhel [gall guy-yell]
                      a.k.a. "Irish Northman"
                      Leather Craftsman, Archer, Huntsman and Target Archery M.I.T.
                      The Barony of Fenix
                      Paid SCA member since 2003


                      When you stop challenging yourself, that's as good as you'll ever be.

                      From: James Koch <alchem@...>
                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 5:09 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings

                       
                      Gentlemen & Ladies,
                      >
                      What about the background enamel color?  Is red acceptable?  The silver arrows will show up great on a bright red background.  The red will also be visible from a distance.  Other options are black, green, yellow, or orange.  Blue and purple are taken and white doesn't provide good contrast for the silver arrows.   
                      >
                      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                      >
                      >
                      >  At 04:44 PM 8/17/2011, you wrote:
                       


                      Agree.... Crossed arrows.

                      Jon
                      On Aug 17, 2011, at 11:22 AM, James Koch wrote:

                       

                      Gentlemen & Ladies,
                      >
                      Now that Pennsic is past, I can devote some time to designing the
                      archery marshal rings. Some kingdoms have their own archery marshal
                      arms, but it is my hope to come up with a design which is acceptable
                      across the SCA. This will keep the cost of the rings down since I'll
                      be able to make just one pattern and wax mold.
                      >
                      We are already making the rings with the single pheon. My thought
                      was to make a ring with two crossed arrows for the marshals. This is
                      in keeping with the crossed swords of the armored combatant marshals
                      and the crossed rapiers of the fencing marshals. Another option is
                      to simply enamel the single pheon ring with a red shield background
                      and a colored pheon to indicate a marshal.
                      >
                      What are other people's thoughts and preferences?
                      >
                      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"





                    • Taslen
                      Aye I agree with what about having   Archery Marshal Gaelen OGrady Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android Aye I agree with what about having Archery Marshal
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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                        Aye I agree with what about having " Archery Marshal"

                        Gaelen OGrady

                        Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



                        From: Ld.blackmoon <ld.blackmoon@...>;
                        To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>;
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings
                        Sent: Wed, Aug 17, 2011 9:57:03 PM

                         

                        greetings
                         
                        like i said , i like them in several forms, but i caught a lot of flak because of some people that had never been in the military saying it was used as part of  one the special forces emblems, and therefore i had no right to use anything that remotely resembled it : (
                         
                        Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun .
                        Arthur
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 3:39 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings

                         

                        Arthur,
                        >
                        If the field color around the arrows is bright red would that make the design different enough from the special forces symbol?  What about adding the letters SCA or some other symbol or sign?
                        >
                        I suppose whatever design is eventually chosen, it will conflict with some other groups charge.
                        >
                        Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                        >
                        >
                        >At 03:47 PM 8/17/2011, you wrote:



                        greetings
                         
                        while I personally like the crossed arrows designs I have seen, when I proposed using them as a site token or marshal emblem for an archery only event ,
                        you would have sworn I was Hitler reborn and as un American as anyone could possibly get because I dare suggest using something some people perceived as being reserved only for members of the us special forces. and thereby disrespecting the us military .......
                         
                        so , don't be surprised if you get some negative feedback : (
                         
                        Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun .
                        Arthur
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: James Koch
                        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 1:22 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings



                        Gentlemen & Ladies,
                        >
                        Now that Pennsic is past, I can devote some time to designing the
                        archery marshal rings. Some kingdoms have their own archery marshal
                        arms, but it is my hope to come up with a design which is acceptable
                        across the SCA. This will keep the cost of the rings down since I'll
                        be able to make just one pattern and wax mold.
                        >
                        We are already making the rings with the single pheon. My thought
                        was to make a ring with two crossed arrows for the marshals. This is
                        in keeping with the crossed swords of the armored combatant marshals
                        and the crossed rapiers of the fencing marshals. Another option is
                        to simply enamel the single pheon ring with a red shield background
                        and a colored pheon to indicate a marshal.
                        >
                        What are other people's thoughts and preferences?
                        >
                        Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


                        No virus found in this message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3835 - Release Date: 08/15/11


                        No virus found in this message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3835 - Release Date: 08/15/11

                      • Paul Wilburn
                        Actually Gyffyd, plain gold crossed arrows ARE the branch insignia of Special Forces personnel, worn on their collars:
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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                          Actually Gyffyd, plain gold crossed arrows ARE the ‘branch insignia’ of Special Forces personnel, worn on their collars: http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/armybranches/blsf.htm   It seems you were right about uninformed people ; )

                           

                           

                           

                           

                           

                          That being pointed out, I don’t think any reasonable person would be offended that an archery marshal emblem resembles one of the Special Forces emblems.  In fact, there is probably some knight rolling over in his tomb, cursing out the Special Forces for stealing his heraldic charge : )

                           

                          Hawken

                           

                           

                           

                           


                          From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Joe Klovance
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 6:11 PM
                          To: sca-archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings

                           

                           

                          This just shows how uninformed many people are. The badge of the US Special Forces is this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Us-special_forces.svg
                          The badge of the 1st Special Forces Regiment is as follows; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SpecialForces_Badge.svg
                          The badge is much more complex than crossed arrows. It is very difficult to confuse a plain crossed arrows with that badge.

                          The crossed arrows is also already used in conjunction with SCA archer. The badge for the An Tir Royal Archer is as follows; http://antir.sca.org/Offices/OfficeBadges/archer.gif

                          Gryffyd ap Llylewyn

                        • Robert Maddison
                          Crossed arrows on red works for me Gandalfr( used to be Llywyllyn)
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 17, 2011
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                            Crossed arrows on red works for me
                            Gandalfr( used to be Llywyllyn)

                            On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:22 PM, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                             

                            Gentlemen & Ladies,
                            >
                            Now that Pennsic is past, I can devote some time to designing the
                            archery marshal rings. Some kingdoms have their own archery marshal
                            arms, but it is my hope to come up with a design which is acceptable
                            across the SCA. This will keep the cost of the rings down since I'll
                            be able to make just one pattern and wax mold.
                            >
                            We are already making the rings with the single pheon. My thought
                            was to make a ring with two crossed arrows for the marshals. This is
                            in keeping with the crossed swords of the armored combatant marshals
                            and the crossed rapiers of the fencing marshals. Another option is
                            to simply enamel the single pheon ring with a red shield background
                            and a colored pheon to indicate a marshal.
                            >
                            What are other people's thoughts and preferences?
                            >
                            Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


                          • James Koch
                            ... Oblio, ... That is actually a good idea. Here are a couple examples. http://www.alcheminc.com/archrings.html You have to scroll to the bottom of the
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 18, 2011
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                              >
                              >
                              >Hello, from the Wild West (Western Australia).
                              >
                              >Suggestion: if you have (upload) access to a web site, why do you not
                              >put up proposed images, and post a link to the proposed images, so
                              >that people can see the prospective images?
                              >
                              >I think it would make the visualisation, a bit easier.
                              >
                              >--
                              >Oblio the Heretic, of Abertwidr
                              >Per fructu, non folii
                              > ................................

                              Oblio,
                              >
                              That is actually a good idea. Here are a couple
                              examples. http://www.alcheminc.com/archrings.html You have to
                              scroll to the bottom of the page to see them. The one on the left is
                              a possible archery marshals ring. On the right is a ring for an
                              archery marshal who is also a member of the Order of Saggitarius. Of
                              course the lettering on an actual rung would be less modern.
                              >
                              Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                            • Taslen
                              I like it but I still want it in a pendant From: James Koch To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:07 PM Subject:
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 18, 2011
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                                I like it but I still want it in a pendant

                                From: James Koch <alchem@...>
                                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:07 PM
                                Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings

                                 

                                >
                                >
                                >Hello, from the Wild West (Western Australia).
                                >
                                >Suggestion: if you have (upload) access to a web site, why do you not
                                >put up proposed images, and post a link to the proposed images, so
                                >that people can see the prospective images?
                                >
                                >I think it would make the visualisation, a bit easier.
                                >
                                >--
                                >Oblio the Heretic, of Abertwidr
                                >Per fructu, non folii
                                > ................................

                                Oblio,
                                >
                                That is actually a good idea. Here are a couple
                                examples. http://www.alcheminc.com/archrings.html You have to
                                scroll to the bottom of the page to see them. The one on the left is
                                a possible archery marshals ring. On the right is a ring for an
                                archery marshal who is also a member of the Order of Saggitarius. Of
                                course the lettering on an actual rung would be less modern.
                                >
                                Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"



                              • James Koch
                                We can do pendants. In fact those would be cheaper since they don t have to be silver or gold since they won t be worn against the skin. ... Jim Koch Gladius
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 18, 2011
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                                  We can do pendants.  In fact those would be cheaper since they don't have to be silver or gold since they won't be worn against the skin.
                                  >
                                  Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > At 08:53 PM 8/18/2011, you wrote:
                                   

                                  I like it but I still want it in a pendant

                                  From: James Koch <alchem@...>
                                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:07 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Re: Design For Archery Marshal Rings

                                   

                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Hello, from the Wild West (Western Australia).
                                  >
                                  >Suggestion: if you have (upload) access to a web site, why do you not
                                  >put up proposed images, and post a link to the proposed images, so
                                  >that people can see the prospective images?
                                  >
                                  >I think it would make the visualisation, a bit easier.
                                  >
                                  >--
                                  >Oblio the Heretic, of Abertwidr
                                  >Per fructu, non folii
                                  > ................................

                                  Oblio,
                                  >
                                  That is actually a good idea. Here are a couple
                                  examples. http://www.alcheminc.com/archrings.html You have to
                                  scroll to the bottom of the page to see them. The one on the left is
                                  a possible archery marshals ring. On the right is a ring for an
                                  archery marshal who is also a member of the Order of Saggitarius. Of
                                  course the lettering on an actual rung would be less modern.
                                  >
                                  Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"



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