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Opposing Archer Eliminations???

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  • hawken1911
    Hello Gang, Many years ago opposing archer shoots were common at events. You would pair up the archers in sudden death duels at an archer target, and the
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 1, 2011
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      Hello Gang,

      Many years ago 'opposing archer' shoots were common at events. You would pair up the archers in sudden death duels at an 'archer' target, and the first to hit the target eliminated their opponent. The winners of the first round would then pair off, etc. until there was only one winner. I'm considering running this for a local group, and I realized I don't know how the marshals reconciled odd numbers. You could start with an odd number of people where everybody was paired up except one person. Or, you could start with even pairs, for example 10 archers (5 pairs), but then after the first round you would have 5 archers (2 pairs and an odd man out). I'm probably missing something very simple here, but I can't figure out a fair way to deal with the 'odd man out'. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.

      Hawken
    • Carl Nelson
      the odd person chosen at random gets a by and automatically advances to the next round. ... -- Carl Nelson archcoach@gmail.com 626-297-6513
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 1, 2011
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        the odd person chosen at random gets a by and automatically advances to the next round. 

        On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:34 PM, hawken1911 <hawken1911@...> wrote:
         

        Hello Gang,

        Many years ago 'opposing archer' shoots were common at events. You would pair up the archers in sudden death duels at an 'archer' target, and the first to hit the target eliminated their opponent. The winners of the first round would then pair off, etc. until there was only one winner. I'm considering running this for a local group, and I realized I don't know how the marshals reconciled odd numbers. You could start with an odd number of people where everybody was paired up except one person. Or, you could start with even pairs, for example 10 archers (5 pairs), but then after the first round you would have 5 archers (2 pairs and an odd man out). I'm probably missing something very simple here, but I can't figure out a fair way to deal with the 'odd man out'. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.

        Hawken




        --
        Carl Nelson
        626-297-6513

      • Siegfried
        A few thoughts: 1) I think that these kinda went out of style, because what often happened was 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... LOOSE ... and BAM BAM ... two hits, and
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 1, 2011
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          A few thoughts:

          1) I think that these kinda went out of style, because what often
          happened was "3 ... 2 ... 1 ... LOOSE" ... and BAM BAM ... two hits, and
          trying to figure out who got who, etc.

          2) The odd-man out situation is hard to handle. Only 'real' way, is to
          make a grouping of 3 (which isn't fair to those) ... or make one person
          have a 'bye' round, just like in a single-elim tournament. etc

          3) I've found that alot of fun variation of this, that gets everyone
          having a blast ... is the following:

          * A line with X number of stakes out from it (5 is good, maybe 6 or 7
          ...). Each target stake, has 3 or 4 clips on it, to hold clay
          pidgeons, or balloons.

          * You have archers line up, one per stake. Each stake is 'that
          archer'. When all their balloons/pidgeons are dead ... they have to
          step off the line and stop shooting.

          * Every man for himself.

          This becomes a complete blast. And most often, the 'best archers' don't
          win. Because everyone else focuses on shooting THEIR stuff dead. And
          numbers beat accuracy at that point. Everyone laughs, everyone has fun,
          and a medium-ish skill archer goes home with the prize usually :)

          Siegfried


          On 7/1/11 3:34 PM, hawken1911 wrote:
          > Hello Gang,
          >
          > Many years ago 'opposing archer' shoots were common at events. You would pair up the archers in sudden death duels at an 'archer' target, and the first to hit the target eliminated their opponent. The winners of the first round would then pair off, etc. until there was only one winner. I'm considering running this for a local group, and I realized I don't know how the marshals reconciled odd numbers. You could start with an odd number of people where everybody was paired up except one person. Or, you could start with even pairs, for example 10 archers (5 pairs), but then after the first round you would have 5 archers (2 pairs and an odd man out). I'm probably missing something very simple here, but I can't figure out a fair way to deal with the 'odd man out'. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.
          >
          > Hawken
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >

          --
          Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
          http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
        • James of the Lake
          In most double-elim competitions, the odd archer out shoots against the Dreaded Bye . Lysts rotates the bye so no one gets it twice (or at least not too
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 1, 2011
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            In most double-elim competitions, the odd archer out shoots against the "Dreaded Bye". Lysts rotates the bye so no one gets it twice (or at least not too often); an archer that is either out or not shooting (like a baron in a baronial championship in his own territory, for example); and thus all competitors still in the competition shoot every round. A win or loss against the bye shooter does not count in the competition; the shooter in the actual competition automatically advances to the next round.

            Talk to your local lyst officer for details on how the bye is handled.

            James

            On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:34 PM, hawken1911 wrote:

            > Hello Gang,
            >
            > Many years ago 'opposing archer' shoots were common at events. You would pair up the archers in sudden death duels at an 'archer' target, and the first to hit the target eliminated their opponent. The winners of the first round would then pair off, etc. until there was only one winner. I'm considering running this for a local group, and I realized I don't know how the marshals reconciled odd numbers. You could start with an odd number of people where everybody was paired up except one person. Or, you could start with even pairs, for example 10 archers (5 pairs), but then after the first round you would have 5 archers (2 pairs and an odd man out). I'm probably missing something very simple here, but I can't figure out a fair way to deal with the 'odd man out'. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.
            >
            > Hawken
          • Lyle Kirshenbaum
            We have only done these as fun, not in any official competitions. If we had an odd number of archers, we would run a round of three. The last archer alive
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 1, 2011
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              We have only done these as fun, not in any official competitions.  If we had an odd number of archers, we would run a round of three.  The last archer alive would win that round. 

              Abraam

              On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:57 PM, James of the Lake <jotl2008@...> wrote:
               

              In most double-elim competitions, the odd archer out shoots against the "Dreaded Bye". Lysts rotates the bye so no one gets it twice (or at least not too often); an archer that is either out or not shooting (like a baron in a baronial championship in his own territory, for example); and thus all competitors still in the competition shoot every round. A win or loss against the bye shooter does not count in the competition; the shooter in the actual competition automatically advances to the next round.

              Talk to your local lyst officer for details on how the bye is handled.

              James



              On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:34 PM, hawken1911 wrote:

              > Hello Gang,
              >
              > Many years ago 'opposing archer' shoots were common at events. You would pair up the archers in sudden death duels at an 'archer' target, and the first to hit the target eliminated their opponent. The winners of the first round would then pair off, etc. until there was only one winner. I'm considering running this for a local group, and I realized I don't know how the marshals reconciled odd numbers. You could start with an odd number of people where everybody was paired up except one person. Or, you could start with even pairs, for example 10 archers (5 pairs), but then after the first round you would have 5 archers (2 pairs and an odd man out). I'm probably missing something very simple here, but I can't figure out a fair way to deal with the 'odd man out'. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.
              >
              > Hawken


            • Taslen
              Aye and I see next years Encampment event hmmm Gaelen OGrady MIC for next years archery tourament at Encampment 11 Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 1, 2011
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                Aye and I see next years Encampment event hmmm

                Gaelen OGrady
                MIC for next years archery tourament at Encampment 11

                Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



                From: hawken1911 <hawken1911@...>;
                To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>;
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Opposing Archer Eliminations???
                Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2011 7:34:55 PM

                 

                Hello Gang,

                Many years ago 'opposing archer' shoots were common at events. You would pair up the archers in sudden death duels at an 'archer' target, and the first to hit the target eliminated their opponent. The winners of the first round would then pair off, etc. until there was only one winner. I'm considering running this for a local group, and I realized I don't know how the marshals reconciled odd numbers. You could start with an odd number of people where everybody was paired up except one person. Or, you could start with even pairs, for example 10 archers (5 pairs), but then after the first round you would have 5 archers (2 pairs and an odd man out). I'm probably missing something very simple here, but I can't figure out a fair way to deal with the 'odd man out'. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.

                Hawken

              • Taslen
                Do you do it my experience at the early round or draw names from a hat to get the first pairings? Gaelen Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 1, 2011
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                  Do you do it my experience at the early round or draw names from a hat to get the first pairings?

                  Gaelen

                  Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



                  From: James of the Lake <jotl2008@...>;
                  To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>;
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Opposing Archer Eliminations???
                  Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2011 7:57:42 PM

                   

                  In most double-elim competitions, the odd archer out shoots against the "Dreaded Bye". Lysts rotates the bye so no one gets it twice (or at least not too often); an archer that is either out or not shooting (like a baron in a baronial championship in his own territory, for example); and thus all competitors still in the competition shoot every round. A win or loss against the bye shooter does not count in the competition; the shooter in the actual competition automatically advances to the next round.

                  Talk to your local lyst officer for details on how the bye is handled.

                  James

                  On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:34 PM, hawken1911 wrote:

                  > Hello Gang,
                  >
                  > Many years ago 'opposing archer' shoots were common at events. You would pair up the archers in sudden death duels at an 'archer' target, and the first to hit the target eliminated their opponent. The winners of the first round would then pair off, etc. until there was only one winner. I'm considering running this for a local group, and I realized I don't know how the marshals reconciled odd numbers. You could start with an odd number of people where everybody was paired up except one person. Or, you could start with even pairs, for example 10 archers (5 pairs), but then after the first round you would have 5 archers (2 pairs and an odd man out). I'm probably missing something very simple here, but I can't figure out a fair way to deal with the 'odd man out'. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.
                  >
                  > Hawken

                • Lyle Kirshenbaum
                  One version of the every man for himself shoot that we have found fun is to use helium balloons attached to anchors spaced at intervals. Each balloon
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 1, 2011
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                    One version of the "every man for himself" shoot that we have found fun is to use helium balloons attached to anchors spaced at intervals.  Each balloon represents an archer.  When yours is popped, you step off the line.  The balloons are not generally static targets, but move in the slightest breeze.  It is a lot of fun to see an archer take aim at his "opponent" just to have him duck at the last second as the wind picked up.

                    Abraam

                    On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Siegfried <siegfried@...> wrote:
                     

                    A few thoughts:

                    1) I think that these kinda went out of style, because what often
                    happened was "3 ... 2 ... 1 ... LOOSE" ... and BAM BAM ... two hits, and
                    trying to figure out who got who, etc.

                    2) The odd-man out situation is hard to handle. Only 'real' way, is to
                    make a grouping of 3 (which isn't fair to those) ... or make one person
                    have a 'bye' round, just like in a single-elim tournament. etc

                    3) I've found that alot of fun variation of this, that gets everyone
                    having a blast ... is the following:

                    * A line with X number of stakes out from it (5 is good, maybe 6 or 7
                    ...). Each target stake, has 3 or 4 clips on it, to hold clay
                    pidgeons, or balloons.

                    * You have archers line up, one per stake. Each stake is 'that
                    archer'. When all their balloons/pidgeons are dead ... they have to
                    step off the line and stop shooting.

                    * Every man for himself.

                    This becomes a complete blast. And most often, the 'best archers' don't
                    win. Because everyone else focuses on shooting THEIR stuff dead. And
                    numbers beat accuracy at that point. Everyone laughs, everyone has fun,
                    and a medium-ish skill archer goes home with the prize usually :)

                    Siegfried



                    On 7/1/11 3:34 PM, hawken1911 wrote:
                    > Hello Gang,
                    >
                    > Many years ago 'opposing archer' shoots were common at events. You would pair up the archers in sudden death duels at an 'archer' target, and the first to hit the target eliminated their opponent. The winners of the first round would then pair off, etc. until there was only one winner. I'm considering running this for a local group, and I realized I don't know how the marshals reconciled odd numbers. You could start with an odd number of people where everybody was paired up except one person. Or, you could start with even pairs, for example 10 archers (5 pairs), but then after the first round you would have 5 archers (2 pairs and an odd man out). I'm probably missing something very simple here, but I can't figure out a fair way to deal with the 'odd man out'. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.
                    >
                    > Hawken
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >

                    --
                    Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                    http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/


                  • James W
                    I have done the balloon popping using four balloons on the same target face. Two balloons are red and two balloons are blue. The Red Archer tries to pop the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 1, 2011
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                      I have done the balloon popping using four balloons on the same target face. Two balloons are red and two balloons are blue. The Red Archer tries to pop the two blue balloons before the Blue Archer pops the two red balloons. And, of course, if you pop your own colour, well, shame on you. The double balloon helps minimize the double kill syndrome where both archers pop their opponents balloon on the first arrow.

                      A variation of this without the speed aspect is to put up two shields on the butt. One shield is white with a black chief and the other shield is black with a white chief. Each archer shoots three arrows a their designated colour. The White Archer scores all arrows that hit White (either on his shield or the white chief on the black shield). The Black Archer scores all arrows that hit Black. Highest count moves on. Ties reshoot.

                      As a head to head, you can do a closest to the mark with each archer shooting two arrows. The one closest the mark wins but do a best 2/3 to help take care of the lucky shot.

                      We have done the paper plate shoot where everyone writes their name on a paper plate. All the archers line up and shoot one arrow at whichever plate they want so it is not really a head to head. Everyone who had a plate hit is eliminated. Depending on how many people are shooting at one time, the best archer in the group may find three or four arrows in his plate as everyone tries to eliminate him. This is actually a fun shoot for the low to mid range archers as they often find themselves surviving into the latter rounds whereas the good archers are eliminated quickly.

                      Instead of eliminating the archer, you can also eliminate arrows. Shoot at a simple roundel. Archers start with six arrows. All arrows that miss are eliminated from play. Change distance or roundel size. When an archer no longer has arrows, he is eliminated. When you are down to two archers, you can continue or just go to most arrows in the roundel wins.
                    • hawken1911
                      Thanks for all the ideas everyone! Hawken
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 2, 2011
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                        Thanks for all the ideas everyone!

                        Hawken


                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James W" <jameswolfden@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have done the balloon popping using four balloons on the same target face. Two balloons are red and two balloons are blue. The Red Archer tries to pop the two blue balloons before the Blue Archer pops the two red balloons. And, of course, if you pop your own colour, well, shame on you. The double balloon helps minimize the double kill syndrome where both archers pop their opponents balloon on the first arrow.
                        >
                        > A variation of this without the speed aspect is to put up two shields on the butt. One shield is white with a black chief and the other shield is black with a white chief. Each archer shoots three arrows a their designated colour. The White Archer scores all arrows that hit White (either on his shield or the white chief on the black shield). The Black Archer scores all arrows that hit Black. Highest count moves on. Ties reshoot.
                        >
                        > As a head to head, you can do a closest to the mark with each archer shooting two arrows. The one closest the mark wins but do a best 2/3 to help take care of the lucky shot.
                        >
                        > We have done the paper plate shoot where everyone writes their name on a paper plate. All the archers line up and shoot one arrow at whichever plate they want so it is not really a head to head. Everyone who had a plate hit is eliminated. Depending on how many people are shooting at one time, the best archer in the group may find three or four arrows in his plate as everyone tries to eliminate him. This is actually a fun shoot for the low to mid range archers as they often find themselves surviving into the latter rounds whereas the good archers are eliminated quickly.
                        >
                        > Instead of eliminating the archer, you can also eliminate arrows. Shoot at a simple roundel. Archers start with six arrows. All arrows that miss are eliminated from play. Change distance or roundel size. When an archer no longer has arrows, he is eliminated. When you are down to two archers, you can continue or just go to most arrows in the roundel wins.
                        >
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