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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Atlatls in the SCA?

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  • James Koch
    Golf balls would work. They are a bit light though for pole sling ammunition, but would work for a demo. Especially the bright orange driving range type. ...
    Message 1 of 41 , May 5, 2011
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      Golf balls would work.  They are a bit light though for pole sling ammunition, but would work for a demo.  Especially the bright orange driving range type.
      >
      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
      >
      >
      >At 05:58 AM 5/5/2011, you wrote:
       

      golf balls work well
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "James Koch" <alchem@...>
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2011 9:56:48 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Atlatls in the SCA?

       

      Iain, 
      >
      My guess is the bundle of paint balls would have a much higher drag coefficient than a stone or lead shot.  So it wouldn't give very good results when shooting for distance.  It might be possible to start with a very heavy stone, then one lighter, then one lighter.  Shoot each several times to get an average and then extrapolate for a lighter projectile.  Of course there is a point where further reducing the mass of the projectile will not add range and will actually shorten it.  If I just want to do a pole sling demo the pain balls would work.  Alternately I could use something like a dense rubber ball or a rock covered in cloth and talcum powder.  That ought to be easy to spot when it hits. 
      >
      Has anyone ever done a pole sling demo at Pennsic? 
      >
      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
      >
      >
      >At 08:29 PM 5/3/2011, you wrote:
       

      If I msy Suggest Using Paint Balls bundled together in a stocking(pantyhose)to measure the distance.

      And yes, the range of the Pole Sling should be equal to or greater than that of an Atlatl. Because of the longer arm within the principles of a Fulcrum.

      For those of you who are interested check out the Primitive ways web site good stuff there.

      Iain

      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
      >
      > Iain,
      > >
      > I made mine out of a mop handle with a groove cut
      > about an inch and a half in at one end. I tied a
      > leather thong around the groove. The other end
      > attached to a thick leather band. From that
      > extended another thong with a loop at the end to
      > go over the end of the pole. The longer the
      > wooden pole and the longer the sling, the greater the velocity.
      > >
      > I live only a couple hundred yards from the South
      > shore of Lake Erie. When I was experimenting
      > with slings I'd go down to the lake. The beaches
      > here are not sand, they are glacial pebble and
      > stone. There are smooth stones from the size of
      > eggs all the way up to fist size which are
      > perfect as sling ammunition. In classical times
      > round football shaped slugs were also used. The
      > beach was also littered with old paving bricks
      > which had been rounded down over the decades. I
      > used to throw halves of bricks with my hand
      > sling. The most impressive projectiles though
      > were egg sized stones thrown using the pole
      > sling. Of all the single human powered
      > projectile weapons, atlatls, bows, hand slings,
      > throwing sticks, blowguns, the pole sling gives
      > the highest velocity to the heaviest projectile
      > and gives the greatest range. I have heaved
      > rocks out into the lake hundreds of yards. It's
      > impressive. You heave the stone and it buzzes
      > off into the distance. You wait and watch, and
      > then suddenly way out in the lake there is a
      > splash. If there is no wind and you listen
      > carefully you eventually hear the sound of the
      > splash. If I had a stop watch and someone to
      > monitor it, I could figure the range by the time
      > it takes for the sound to reach shore.
      > >
      > I'd love to do a sling demo, but can't figure
      > where and how. The range of the things is so
      > great that they present problems. Lead shots,
      > which are the most efficient, imbed themselves in the ground on impact.
      > >
      > Jim Koch, "Gladius The Alchemist"
      > >
      > > At 07:33 PM 5/2/2011, you wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >Greeting unto Gladius The Alchemist does Iain Griffen send.
      > >
      > >Good Gentle
      > >
      > >Is not the Pole sling a simple form of the
      > >Traction Trebuchet? And with that in mind
      > >wouldn't it also a force multiplier. with it
      > >being made with a length of a walking staff with the sling attached.
      > >
      > >It would be interesting to see results of a
      > >field testing using the pole sling for distance and accurcy vs weight thrown.
      > >
      > >Several years ago there was a page that had a
      > >good link for pole slings, then when the owner
      > >passed the page(s) went away. I think the pages were the Spider Web.
      > >
      > >Iain Griffen
      > >
      > >Lord of the Atenveldt Court
      > >
      > >Knight of the Adrian Empire
      > >Duke of the Dutchy of Cyprus (Adria)
      > >
      > >--- In
      > >< mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com > SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com,
      > >James Koch <alchem@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
      > > > >
      > > > Atlatls are interesting, but pole slings are way
      > > > cool, and easy to document. I ought to bring my
      > > > pole sling to Pennsic this year and see if I can
      > > > lob a projectile into the clout.
      > > > >
      > > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
      > > > >
      > >
      > >
      >

    • Jim Pickette
      People on the Balearic Islands including Majorca, have regular contests for score (accuracy) and money all the way into the 21st century. I copied their
      Message 41 of 41 , Jan 3, 2014
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        People on the Balearic Islands including Majorca, have regular contests for score (accuracy) and money all the way into the 21st century. I copied their idea/style of target with the metal "gong" in the middle of a larger wooden face. They have standardized ranges for men, women, children. Historically slings have been a major weapon for them since at least Roman times. In our medieval periods (contemporary with Macchiavelli) they formed and hired out battalions.

        I read about an elderly Native American who practiced at 50 to 100 yards and was considered an expert at 100 yds. He could very regularly hit a telephone pole at that distance. As a youth he claimed to have hunted with his sling.

        In the SCA we customarily fire arrows for score at 40 yards or less. This wouldn't be too hard for a slinger's stone.


        James of Odo, Fidelibus


        ---- James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
        > Jim "JoO",
        > >
        > I have never heard of any actual targets designed for use with
        > slings. I know there are targets and competitions for blowguns, but
        > those are modern. My assumption has always been that slings were
        > used for range rather than accuracy. I don't know of any cultures
        > that hunted with a sling. Shepherds carried them, but I always
        > assumed the slings were more for scaring the predators than actually
        > wounding or killing them. From all my reading, slings were a weapon
        > of war. Basically for bombarding an enemy force from long
        > range where it would be a waste to use arrows. In ancient times
        > infantry wore slings as belts and used them to pelt enemies when
        > conditions allowed.
        > >
        > It would be interesting to see how accurate slings actually are at
        > hand bow type ranges. I can't really do the tests since my wrist
        > won't allow it. For really short ranges, like 50 yards, a very short
        > and therefore more accurate sling could be used. You would likely
        > have to start with a rubber ball or similar projectile that would not
        > kill people and could be recovered and reused.
        > >
        > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        > >
        > >
        > At 06:41 AM 12/29/2013, Jim Pickette wrote:
        > >I have been using golf balls painted metallic gold and a few "New
        > >Zealand cross" golf balls (shaped like a football). The later put
        > >on spin like a football which I think will eventually improve my
        > >accuracy. (I'll never make it to Carnegy Hall).
        > >
        > >Have you seen any guidance on rules, targets, scoring, etcetera? I
        > >built a version of a Majorca/Balearic target with an eight inch
        > >round cake pan in the middle of a 2' x 2' plywood. 3 pts for the
        > >"gong" and one for hitting the plywood. The sound makes scoring
        > >easy. I painted the cake pan gold and the plywood purple for
        > >Calontir colors. In Calontir (Nebraska) we have a lot of clay but
        > >no lake stones. At Lillies War we always have a lot of happy
        > >potters. I've only found four people who have even tried slinging,
        > >all of us beginners.
        > >
        > >While I am warranted for archery and thrown weapons, I have been
        > >doing mostly thrown weapons.
        > >
        > >Thanks,
        > >
        > >JoO, Fidelibus
        > >
        > >---- James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
        > > > James,
        > > > >
        > > > Slings are fascinating. You can throw a fairly
        > > > heavy projectile incredible distances with one,
        > > > especially with a pole sling. I did some serious
        > > > slinging back in the early 70s. Unfortunately
        > > > over time I managed to hurt my right wrist. It
        > > > got so that every time I sent a rock sailing out
        > > > of sight, my right hand would go numb for a
        > > > minute. Pole slings never caused a problem and
        > > > are much safer and more accurate. I live near
        > > > Lake Erie and can find plenty of smooth stones of
        > > > various sizes on the beach. Don't ever use a
        > > > rough projectile. I had one hang up in the pouch
        > > > on release from a hand sling. It wrapped around
        > > > my right leg and penetrated the skin pretty
        > > > deep. I still have a scar from that. The
        > > > ancients used lead shot shaped like small
        > > > American footballs. I made some, but they would
        > > > invariably drive so deep in the ground that I
        > > > lost all of them. Beach stones have the
        > > > advantage of being smooth, free, and
        > > > abundant. The water also provides an open range
        > > > for practice. I once saw a chart showing the
        > > > ranges of various human powered projectile
        > > > weapons, and slings were capable of reaching out
        > > > the farthest. On the down side they are highly
        > > > inaccurate and are only useful as a weapon of war
        > > > where your target is a massed army, or a
        > > > town. All slings are difficult to use in a wind.
        > > > >
        > > > I actually have a pole sling I made a couple
        > > > years ago. My plan was to take it to Pennsic
        > > > along with balls painted international orange as
        > > > projectiles. I figured it would be possible to
        > > > mark off a target circle next to the clout and
        > > > let people shoot at it. The balls would have to
        > > > be large enough and of a low enough density so
        > > > that they wouldn't bury in the ground.
        > > > >
        > > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        > > > >
        > > > > At 02:16 PM 12/28/2013, you wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >I too, am interested. I have never personally
        > > > >seen one used, but I have read a little on it.
        > > > >
        > > > >James of Odo, Fidelibus
        > > > >Archer/Thrown Weapons Marshal
        > > > >Lonely Tower in Calontir
        > > > >
        > > > >p.s. I am also interested in slinging, of which
        > > > >I have done some experiments. Any leads or ideas?
        > > > >
        > > > >---- randal_of_camusfearna@... wrote:
        > > > > > Greetings,
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I will be stepping up as Royal Archer at the
        > > > > West Kingdom 12th Night. I too would be
        > > > > interested in Atlatl rules updates, so I can look into their
        > > use in The West.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Randal of Camusfearna
        > > > >
        >
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