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Re: bow weights

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  • frode_kettilsson
    Rick, In this case, I d recommend going non-period and getting a hand held scale as mentioned. The stick method would probably work (essentially it s a
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 8, 2011
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      Rick,
      In this case, I'd recommend going non-period and getting a hand held scale as mentioned. The stick method would probably work (essentially it's a tillering tree), though you'd want the stick to be more of a post, and very(!) securely anchored. Adding weights to the drawn bow could work, if you could calibrate your weights (hand me one of those 2 1/2 pound rocks, please). I'd personally avoid weighting, as I've always heard that it is harmful to the bow to be held at or near full draw for too long, especially a wood bow, and it could be difficult to unload the weights quickly.
      I can't vouch for period accuracy, but I could imagine that after much more exposure than we Mundanes typically get, the bowyers and archers of yore probably could guess the weight by feel (that's 5 stone, if it's an ounce, M'Lord).
      :)
      Best Regards,
      Frode

      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "rickj" <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
      >...But, does anyone know of an easy way to measure your draw-weight of your bow? Preferably in the field? "Ah ha! your bow weighs 43# but this match has a 35# max!"
      >
      > i am thinking of a post with a notch for the bow, then mark the post in inches.
      > Tie the bow to the top-notch and hang weights until the draw is reached and see what it took.
      >
      > Or am i off the mark here?
      >
    • Carolus
      Something to remember about bows and draw weights is that there are many factors besides the raw poundage to factor in. The speed of the limbs themselves, the
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 8, 2011
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        Something to remember about bows and draw weights is that there are many
        factors besides the raw poundage to factor in. The speed of the limbs
        themselves, the mechanical advantage of the limb geometry, the stack of
        the bow, and other factors will affect both how hard the draw feels and
        the performance of the shot. Frankly, draw weight is a modern
        consideration and is useful for modern tuning but has little relevance
        to period archery. Target archery as we know it was virtually unknown
        in period, only beginning to be practiced in the last 50 or 75 years of
        period and then only in a rudimentary form. There is little, if any,
        reference to complex multi-end rounds and no reference to timed (or
        speed) shooting. The complex and well regulated shoots appear to be for
        crossbow, not handbows. All the technical aspects we spend so much time
        on such as draw weight, anchor point, stance, spine and arrow matching,
        and the like are part of modern shooting. With that said, don't think I
        don't put a great deal of value on all this. We are, after all, a
        modern group accomplishing modern goals and learning about the skills
        those in period had to master. It is just that they didn't spend much
        time thinking about what those skills were. It doesn't make much sense
        trying to put modern learning in a period mindset.
        Carolus

        richard johnson wrote:
        >
        >
        > I understand the scale and you can get them at any hunting store.
        > And i understand the tiller-stick and bathroom scale concept too.
        > BUT, are these scales period?
        >
        > I realize that no one cared back then. I suspect that if you could
        > pull it, you could shoot it in any match.
        > But today, using period skills? How would we do that easily in the
        > fiels without a spring scale?
        >
        >
        >
        > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...
        > <mailto:arwemakere@...>> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Buy a bow scale. About $35 at 3rivers archery.
        >
        >
        > Wiliam
        >
        > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 3:28 PM, rickj <rikjohnson39@...
        > <mailto:rikjohnson39@...>> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > I dug my bnows (9) out and strung them all to see their
        > relative weights.
        > Some have no weight posted. So I was guessing "I think it's
        > about 35# because it is easier to pull than that 45# and
        > harder to pull then that 30#"
        >
        > But, does anyone know of an easy way to measure your
        > draw-weight of your bow? Preferably in the field? "Ah ha! your
        > bow weighs 43# but this match has a 35# max!"
        >
        > i am thinking of a post with a notch for the bow, then mark
        > the post in inches.
        > Tie the bow to the top-notch and hang weights until the draw
        > is reached and see what it took.
        >
        > Or am i off the mark here?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Rick Johnson
        > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
        > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
        > security will soon find that they have neither."
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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        >
      • James W
        If you just want to do it for the archery range, use a spring scale and be discrete about its use. If you want to do it as an Arts and Science project, then
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 10, 2011
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          If you just want to do it for the archery range, use a spring scale and be discrete about its use.

          If you want to do it as an Arts and Science project, then you need to do something you can document.

          It is highly unlikely that anyone other than the bowyer making the bow would even be concerned about the draw weight in the field. Like you said, you just pull it and go by feel. For all we know, that is all the bowyer did.

          I am not aware of any documentable period method of checking a bow's draw weight in England or Western European society.

          That said, in Stephen Selby's Archery Traditions of Asia, there is an illustration stated to come from the Ming Period which shows a bowyer using testing the draw weight similar to what you describe.

          The bowyer appears to be holding a long stick. It is either mounted on a support at one end or there is a counterweight with a fixed length string. I think it is the latter. At the other end, is a chain and a hook. The string of the bow is placed on the hook and the bow is weighted by tying the weights to the handle of the bow. My interpretation of the picture is that the stick is held so that the counterweight is touching the ground and the string attached to it is tight. The bowyer is checking to see that the bow just touches the ground on the other end.

          On advantage that this has is that the bowyer can easily control how long the bow stays at full draw by just raising and lower the stick. Disadvantage is that it still looks darn awkward.

          I tried to find the picture on the Atarn.org website but I couldn't find it.

          In Service,
          James


          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
          >
          > I understand the scale and you can get them at any hunting store.
          > And i understand the tiller-stick and bathroom scale concept too.
          > BUT, are these scales period?
          >
          > I realize that no one cared back then. I suspect that if you could pull it,
          > you could shoot it in any match.
          > But today, using period skills? How would we do that easily in the fiels
          > without a spring scale?
          >
          >
          >
          > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Buy a bow scale. About $35 at 3rivers archery.
          > >
          > > Wiliam
          > >
          > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 3:28 PM, rickj <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> I dug my bnows (9) out and strung them all to see their relative weights.
          > >> Some have no weight posted. So I was guessing "I think it's about 35#
          > >> because it is easier to pull than that 45# and harder to pull then that 30#"
          > >>
          > >> But, does anyone know of an easy way to measure your draw-weight of your
          > >> bow? Preferably in the field? "Ah ha! your bow weighs 43# but this match has
          > >> a 35# max!"
          > >>
          > >> i am thinking of a post with a notch for the bow, then mark the post in
          > >> inches.
          > >> Tie the bow to the top-notch and hang weights until the draw is reached
          > >> and see what it took.
          > >>
          > >> Or am i off the mark here?
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Rick Johnson
          > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
          > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security
          > will soon find that they have neither."
          >
        • richard johnson
          Pretty much, everywhere I check i get the same answer. Now, I havn t done any SCA matches in soooo loooonnnggggg... And back then, there was a max-draw weight
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 10, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Pretty much, everywhere I check i get the same answer.
             
            Now, I havn't done any SCA matches in soooo loooonnnggggg...
            And back then, there was a max-draw weight of 35# (30# for women). We could use lower but no higher.
            But they trusted us!  If i said, "My bow is a 30#, then 30# it was!  Of course, if someone came up with a huge bow that most people couldn't draw and claimed it was 35#, there was no way to confirm this.
             
            So, part 2 is this.
            I come to the field with my longbow.  Mike comes with his old Bear wood&fiberglass recurve that still looks like a longbow at 20'. 
             
            You glance at his bow and see 35# printed on the bow, but mine has nothing of the sort.
            How can the field marshall be certain that my bow is the proper or claimed weight?

            On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 2:01 PM, James W <jameswolfden@...> wrote:
             

            If you just want to do it for the archery range, use a spring scale and be discrete about its use.

            If you want to do it as an Arts and Science project, then you need to do something you can document.

            It is highly unlikely that anyone other than the bowyer making the bow would even be concerned about the draw weight in the field. Like you said, you just pull it and go by feel. For all we know, that is all the bowyer did.

            I am not aware of any documentable period method of checking a bow's draw weight in England or Western European society.

            That said, in Stephen Selby's Archery Traditions of Asia, there is an illustration stated to come from the Ming Period which shows a bowyer using testing the draw weight similar to what you describe.

            The bowyer appears to be holding a long stick. It is either mounted on a support at one end or there is a counterweight with a fixed length string. I think it is the latter. At the other end, is a chain and a hook. The string of the bow is placed on the hook and the bow is weighted by tying the weights to the handle of the bow. My interpretation of the picture is that the stick is held so that the counterweight is touching the ground and the string attached to it is tight. The bowyer is checking to see that the bow just touches the ground on the other end.

            On advantage that this has is that the bowyer can easily control how long the bow stays at full draw by just raising and lower the stick. Disadvantage is that it still looks darn awkward.

            I tried to find the picture on the Atarn.org website but I couldn't find it.

            In Service,
            James

            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
            >
            > I understand the scale and you can get them at any hunting store.
            > And i understand the tiller-stick and bathroom scale concept too.
            > BUT, are these scales period?
            >
            > I realize that no one cared back then. I suspect that if you could pull it,
            > you could shoot it in any match.
            > But today, using period skills? How would we do that easily in the fiels
            > without a spring scale?
            >
            >
            >
            > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > Buy a bow scale. About $35 at 3rivers archery.
            > >
            > > Wiliam
            > >
            > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 3:28 PM, rickj <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> I dug my bnows (9) out and strung them all to see their relative weights.
            > >> Some have no weight posted. So I was guessing "I think it's about 35#
            > >> because it is easier to pull than that 45# and harder to pull then that 30#"
            > >>
            > >> But, does anyone know of an easy way to measure your draw-weight of your
            > >> bow? Preferably in the field? "Ah ha! your bow weighs 43# but this match has
            > >> a 35# max!"
            > >>
            > >> i am thinking of a post with a notch for the bow, then mark the post in
            > >> inches.
            > >> Tie the bow to the top-notch and hang weights until the draw is reached
            > >> and see what it took.
            > >>
            > >> Or am i off the mark here?
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > Rick Johnson
            > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
            > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security
            > will soon find that they have neither."
            >




            --
            Rick Johnson
            http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
            "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither."
          • Bill Tait
            I guess the big question would be: Why would you care? If a shoot is being run that has a maximum poundage (and in 13 years of sca shooting, I ve never
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 10, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              I guess the big question would be: Why would you care?

              If a shoot is being run that has a maximum poundage (and in 13 years of sca shooting, I've never encountered this), the marshal should have a scale. If he doesn't, he's poorly organized, and would have to take the archer's word for it.

              The only place I've encountered a poundage limits is in the SCA for combat, and out in the world of FITA (60# for compound). We do sometimes have fun shoots that are split by poundage (35# a\nd over shoot the 180yd clout, lower shoot the shorter). If the bow's not marked, we typically trust the archer or scale it if he desires.

              William Arwemakere

              On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 2:02 PM, richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
               

              Pretty much, everywhere I check i get the same answer.
               
              Now, I havn't done any SCA matches in soooo loooonnnggggg...
              And back then, there was a max-draw weight of 35# (30# for women). We could use lower but no higher.
              But they trusted us!  If i said, "My bow is a 30#, then 30# it was!  Of course, if someone came up with a huge bow that most people couldn't draw and claimed it was 35#, there was no way to confirm this.
               
              So, part 2 is this.
              I come to the field with my longbow.  Mike comes with his old Bear wood&fiberglass recurve that still looks like a longbow at 20'. 
               
              You glance at his bow and see 35# printed on the bow, but mine has nothing of the sort.
              How can the field marshall be certain that my bow is the proper or claimed weight?

              On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 2:01 PM, James W <jameswolfden@...> wrote:
               

              If you just want to do it for the archery range, use a spring scale and be discrete about its use.

              If you want to do it as an Arts and Science project, then you need to do something you can document.

              It is highly unlikely that anyone other than the bowyer making the bow would even be concerned about the draw weight in the field. Like you said, you just pull it and go by feel. For all we know, that is all the bowyer did.

              I am not aware of any documentable period method of checking a bow's draw weight in England or Western European society.

              That said, in Stephen Selby's Archery Traditions of Asia, there is an illustration stated to come from the Ming Period which shows a bowyer using testing the draw weight similar to what you describe.

              The bowyer appears to be holding a long stick. It is either mounted on a support at one end or there is a counterweight with a fixed length string. I think it is the latter. At the other end, is a chain and a hook. The string of the bow is placed on the hook and the bow is weighted by tying the weights to the handle of the bow. My interpretation of the picture is that the stick is held so that the counterweight is touching the ground and the string attached to it is tight. The bowyer is checking to see that the bow just touches the ground on the other end.

              On advantage that this has is that the bowyer can easily control how long the bow stays at full draw by just raising and lower the stick. Disadvantage is that it still looks darn awkward.

              I tried to find the picture on the Atarn.org website but I couldn't find it.

              In Service,
              James

              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
              >
              > I understand the scale and you can get them at any hunting store.
              > And i understand the tiller-stick and bathroom scale concept too.
              > BUT, are these scales period?
              >
              > I realize that no one cared back then. I suspect that if you could pull it,
              > you could shoot it in any match.
              > But today, using period skills? How would we do that easily in the fiels
              > without a spring scale?
              >
              >
              >
              > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > Buy a bow scale. About $35 at 3rivers archery.
              > >
              > > Wiliam
              > >
              > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 3:28 PM, rickj <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> I dug my bnows (9) out and strung them all to see their relative weights.
              > >> Some have no weight posted. So I was guessing "I think it's about 35#
              > >> because it is easier to pull than that 45# and harder to pull then that 30#"
              > >>
              > >> But, does anyone know of an easy way to measure your draw-weight of your
              > >> bow? Preferably in the field? "Ah ha! your bow weighs 43# but this match has
              > >> a 35# max!"
              > >>
              > >> i am thinking of a post with a notch for the bow, then mark the post in
              > >> inches.
              > >> Tie the bow to the top-notch and hang weights until the draw is reached
              > >> and see what it took.
              > >>
              > >> Or am i off the mark here?
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Rick Johnson
              > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
              > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security
              > will soon find that they have neither."
              >




              --
              Rick Johnson
              http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
              "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither."


            • richard johnson
              I guess that answers my question. Thank you all. ... -- Rick Johnson http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 10, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                I guess that answers my question.
                 
                Thank you all.

                On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:
                 

                I guess the big question would be: Why would you care?


                If a shoot is being run that has a maximum poundage (and in 13 years of sca shooting, I've never encountered this), the marshal should have a scale. If he doesn't, he's poorly organized, and would have to take the archer's word for it.

                The only place I've encountered a poundage limits is in the SCA for combat, and out in the world of FITA (60# for compound). We do sometimes have fun shoots that are split by poundage (35# a\nd over shoot the 180yd clout, lower shoot the shorter). If the bow's not marked, we typically trust the archer or scale it if he desires.

                William Arwemakere


                On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 2:02 PM, richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
                 

                Pretty much, everywhere I check i get the same answer.
                 
                Now, I havn't done any SCA matches in soooo loooonnnggggg...
                And back then, there was a max-draw weight of 35# (30# for women). We could use lower but no higher.
                But they trusted us!  If i said, "My bow is a 30#, then 30# it was!  Of course, if someone came up with a huge bow that most people couldn't draw and claimed it was 35#, there was no way to confirm this.
                 
                So, part 2 is this.
                I come to the field with my longbow.  Mike comes with his old Bear wood&fiberglass recurve that still looks like a longbow at 20'. 
                 
                You glance at his bow and see 35# printed on the bow, but mine has nothing of the sort.
                How can the field marshall be certain that my bow is the proper or claimed weight?

                On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 2:01 PM, James W <jameswolfden@...> wrote:
                 

                If you just want to do it for the archery range, use a spring scale and be discrete about its use.

                If you want to do it as an Arts and Science project, then you need to do something you can document.

                It is highly unlikely that anyone other than the bowyer making the bow would even be concerned about the draw weight in the field. Like you said, you just pull it and go by feel. For all we know, that is all the bowyer did.

                I am not aware of any documentable period method of checking a bow's draw weight in England or Western European society.

                That said, in Stephen Selby's Archery Traditions of Asia, there is an illustration stated to come from the Ming Period which shows a bowyer using testing the draw weight similar to what you describe.

                The bowyer appears to be holding a long stick. It is either mounted on a support at one end or there is a counterweight with a fixed length string. I think it is the latter. At the other end, is a chain and a hook. The string of the bow is placed on the hook and the bow is weighted by tying the weights to the handle of the bow. My interpretation of the picture is that the stick is held so that the counterweight is touching the ground and the string attached to it is tight. The bowyer is checking to see that the bow just touches the ground on the other end.

                On advantage that this has is that the bowyer can easily control how long the bow stays at full draw by just raising and lower the stick. Disadvantage is that it still looks darn awkward.

                I tried to find the picture on the Atarn.org website but I couldn't find it.

                In Service,
                James

                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
                >
                > I understand the scale and you can get them at any hunting store.
                > And i understand the tiller-stick and bathroom scale concept too.
                > BUT, are these scales period?
                >
                > I realize that no one cared back then. I suspect that if you could pull it,
                > you could shoot it in any match.
                > But today, using period skills? How would we do that easily in the fiels
                > without a spring scale?
                >
                >
                >
                > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Bill Tait <arwemakere@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Buy a bow scale. About $35 at 3rivers archery.
                > >
                > > Wiliam
                > >
                > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 3:28 PM, rickj <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> I dug my bnows (9) out and strung them all to see their relative weights.
                > >> Some have no weight posted. So I was guessing "I think it's about 35#
                > >> because it is easier to pull than that 45# and harder to pull then that 30#"
                > >>
                > >> But, does anyone know of an easy way to measure your draw-weight of your
                > >> bow? Preferably in the field? "Ah ha! your bow weighs 43# but this match has
                > >> a 35# max!"
                > >>
                > >> i am thinking of a post with a notch for the bow, then mark the post in
                > >> inches.
                > >> Tie the bow to the top-notch and hang weights until the draw is reached
                > >> and see what it took.
                > >>
                > >> Or am i off the mark here?
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                > Rick Johnson
                > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security
                > will soon find that they have neither."
                >




                --
                Rick Johnson
                http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither."





                --
                Rick Johnson
                http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither."
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