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Re: [SCA-Archery] Drawing to the Chest experiment

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  • Taslen
    James, On the drawing to the chest how did you sight the bow? Did you do it the same as you normally would? Gaelen O Grady Marche of Three Towers Mansfield
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 4, 2010
      James,
       
      On the drawing to the chest how did you sight the bow? Did you do it the same as you normally would?
       
      Gaelen O'Grady
      Marche of Three Towers
      Mansfield Ohio


      From: James W <jameswolfden@...>
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 12:01:17 AM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Drawing to the Chest experiment

       

      I have often heard people say that the English drew to their ear to get a longer range as opposed to drawing to their chest.

      I have always wondered about that. I think the most important thing is a consistent draw which requires an anchor of some kind. I believe this is what Ascham refers to in reference to "keeping a length". As well, I figure the main motivation for going to an ear draw as opposed to chest draw was for aiming purposes. In addition, many of the very long draw asiatic bows are drawn to the chest level.

      Like many archers in the SCA, I draw to the corner of my mouth to keep a consistent anchor. It is not as consistent as an under the chin anchor but it is relatively simple and consistent enough for my experiment.

      I wanted to see what affect drawing to my ear and drawing to my chest would have on my drawlength. For my ear, I set my anchor as bottom part of the ear where it joins the face. My drawlength increased by 2 inches.

      Next I tried the chest anchor. I made the decision to anchor using my sternum. The chest is a pretty big area to pick a consistent anchor so I went for the middle. Many illustrations tend to indicate the middle of the chest. The draw to the chest pretty much matched the draw to the ear - I might give the draw to the ear 1/4 on the trials I did.

      But my findings are that there isn't much of a difference in drawing to the ear and drawing to the chest in regards to the power stroke of the bow.

      I would be interested in the results of any others testing. I was not at the a range so I did not loose any arrows. I would expect a chest draw would result in needing to aim much lower so make sure you have sufficient range or backstop.

      Cheers, James


    • James W
      Yes, I kept stance and sighting the same to minimize the variables. The only thing that changed was the position my string hand anchored at. The main objective
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 4, 2010
        Yes, I kept stance and sighting the same to minimize the variables. The only thing that changed was the position my string hand anchored at. The main objective was just to see what the drawlength was.

        I think what you are looking for is the position of my bowhand which would be more in line with my face/ear than with my chest as it normally would be. Doing a quick check with aligning the bow hand to chest (which just doesn't feel right), I still get a drawlength increase of about 1 inch.

        The winter is closing up the outdoor ranges so I probably won't get a chance to test out actually loosing and seeing the effect on aiming at 100 yards or so. I think Plachoya observation will prove to be quite accurate and that aiming point would need to drop significantly. I would be interested to see the effect on right and left accuracy.

        James
        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Taslen <taslen2000@...> wrote:
        >
        > James,
        >
        > On the drawing to the chest how did you sight the bow? Did you do it the same as
        > you normally would?
        >
        > Gaelen O'Grady
        > Marche of Three Towers
        > Mansfield Ohio
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: James W <jameswolfden@...>
        > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 12:01:17 AM
        > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Drawing to the Chest experiment
        >
        >  
        > I have often heard people say that the English drew to their ear to get a longer
        > range as opposed to drawing to their chest.
        >
        >
        > I have always wondered about that. I think the most important thing is a
        > consistent draw which requires an anchor of some kind. I believe this is what
        > Ascham refers to in reference to "keeping a length". As well, I figure the main
        > motivation for going to an ear draw as opposed to chest draw was for aiming
        > purposes. In addition, many of the very long draw asiatic bows are drawn to the
        > chest level.
        >
        > Like many archers in the SCA, I draw to the corner of my mouth to keep a
        > consistent anchor. It is not as consistent as an under the chin anchor but it is
        > relatively simple and consistent enough for my experiment.
        >
        >
        > I wanted to see what affect drawing to my ear and drawing to my chest would have
        > on my drawlength. For my ear, I set my anchor as bottom part of the ear where it
        > joins the face. My drawlength increased by 2 inches.
        >
        > Next I tried the chest anchor. I made the decision to anchor using my sternum.
        > The chest is a pretty big area to pick a consistent anchor so I went for the
        > middle. Many illustrations tend to indicate the middle of the chest. The draw to
        > the chest pretty much matched the draw to the ear - I might give the draw to the
        > ear 1/4 on the trials I did.
        >
        >
        > But my findings are that there isn't much of a difference in drawing to the ear
        > and drawing to the chest in regards to the power stroke of the bow.
        >
        >
        > I would be interested in the results of any others testing. I was not at the a
        > range so I did not loose any arrows. I would expect a chest draw would result in
        > needing to aim much lower so make sure you have sufficient range or backstop.
        >
        >
        > Cheers, James
        >
      • bluecat@neo.rr.com
        James, When I was a child and tried archery for the first time- I remember them having us draw to the chest-- Since I am right handed it was to my right
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 5, 2010
          James,

          When I was a child and tried archery for the first time- I remember them having us draw to the chest-- Since I
          am right handed it was to my right nipple, a fixed point. It did force you to flatten the left arm out and
          make your body flat to the bow to draw. I remember aiming being a problem and you did have to lift the arm to
          adjust that. It may have had to do with the very likely low power bows we probably used. More that that I
          can't recall.

          My speculation here is that this may have been a safety consideration for kids, as this was at a summer camp
          and they might not want to have arrows near the face and eyes- I do not know.

          Have you thought about trying this position? I wonder how it would work? I may go looking for pictures.

          Dirk Edward of Frisia
        • Dan Scheid
          if you use instinctive style you don t sight you shoot... Damales
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 5, 2010



            if you use instinctive style you don't "sight" you shoot...
            Damales
             
            James,
             
            On the drawing to the chest how did you sight the bow? Did you do it the same as you normally would?
             
            Gaelen O'Grady
            Marche of Three Towers
            Mansfield Ohio


            From: James W <jameswolfden@...>
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 12:01:17 AM
            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Drawing to the Chest experiment

             

            I have often heard people say that the English drew to their ear to get a longer range as opposed to drawing to their chest.

            I have always wondered about that. I think the most important thing is a consistent draw which requires an anchor of some kind. I believe this is what Ascham refers to in reference to "keeping a length". As well, I figure the main motivation for going to an ear draw as opposed to chest draw was for aiming purposes. In addition, many of the very long draw asiatic bows are drawn to the chest level.

            Like many archers in the SCA, I draw to the corner of my mouth to keep a consistent anchor. It is not as consistent as an under the chin anchor but it is relatively simple and consistent enough for my experiment.

            I wanted to see what affect drawing to my ear and drawing to my chest would have on my drawlength. For my ear, I set my anchor as bottom part of the ear where it joins the face. My drawlength increased by 2 inches.

            Next I tried the chest anchor. I made the decision to anchor using my sternum. The chest is a pretty big area to pick a consistent anchor so I went for the middle. Many illustrations tend to indicate the middle of the chest. The draw to the chest pretty much matched the draw to the ear - I might give the draw to the ear 1/4 on the trials I did.

            But my findings are that there isn't much of a difference in drawing to the ear and drawing to the chest in regards to the power stroke of the bow.

            I would be interested in the results of any others testing. I was not at the a range so I did not loose any arrows. I would expect a chest draw would result in needing to aim much lower so make sure you have sufficient range or backstop.

            Cheers, James



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          • logantheboweyder
            I ve found that anchor points are matched to the type of shooting you do. Deer hunters, those who learn from other deer hunters, and others who primarily
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 5, 2010
              I've found that anchor points are matched to the type of shooting you do. Deer hunters, those who learn from other deer hunters, and others who primarily shoot at 40 yards and under anchor to the side of the face. Modern mundane recurve target archers who shoot at 30 to 90 meters anchor under the chin. It seems reasonable that archers who shoot primarily at 100 yards and greater (medieval military archers) would drop their choice of anchor an even greater distance, down to the chest, so as to keep their bow hand or arrow tip in the "sight picture", whether instinctive or sight shooting.

              Experimental archaeology does have its place.

              Logan
              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James W" <jameswolfden@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have often heard people say that the English drew to their ear to get a longer range as opposed to drawing to their chest.
              >
              > I have always wondered about that. I think the most important thing is a consistent draw which requires an anchor of some kind. I believe this is what Ascham refers to in reference to "keeping a length". As well, I figure the main motivation for going to an ear draw as opposed to chest draw was for aiming purposes. In addition, many of the very long draw asiatic bows are drawn to the chest level.
              >
              > Like many archers in the SCA, I draw to the corner of my mouth to keep a consistent anchor. It is not as consistent as an under the chin anchor but it is relatively simple and consistent enough for my experiment.
              >
              > I wanted to see what affect drawing to my ear and drawing to my chest would have on my drawlength. For my ear, I set my anchor as bottom part of the ear where it joins the face. My drawlength increased by 2 inches.
              >
              > Next I tried the chest anchor. I made the decision to anchor using my sternum. The chest is a pretty big area to pick a consistent anchor so I went for the middle. Many illustrations tend to indicate the middle of the chest. The draw to the chest pretty much matched the draw to the ear - I might give the draw to the ear 1/4 on the trials I did.
              >
              > But my findings are that there isn't much of a difference in drawing to the ear and drawing to the chest in regards to the power stroke of the bow.
              >
              > I would be interested in the results of any others testing. I was not at the a range so I did not loose any arrows. I would expect a chest draw would result in needing to aim much lower so make sure you have sufficient range or backstop.
              >
              > Cheers, James
              >
            • James W
              Interesting, as a former Cub Scout Leader, I have done a bit of archery with youth and always used the side of mouth as the anchor position. Were you taught to
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 5, 2010
                Interesting, as a former Cub Scout Leader, I have done a bit of archery with youth and always used the side of mouth as the anchor position.

                Were you taught to use the archery T stance or some other stance?

                With youth, I often find the biggest problem is overdrawing the arrow. Using a right nipple anchor in a T-stance would exaggerate that issue. As I mentioned, just going to the sternum increased my drawlength by 2" and it is another 3"-4" to my right nipple.

                If your stance was head on to the target, that might shorten up the drawlength but is not a normal archery stance.

                James
                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "bluecat@..." <bluecat@...> wrote:
                >
                > James,
                >
                > When I was a child and tried archery for the first time- I remember them having us draw to the chest-- Since I
                > am right handed it was to my right nipple, a fixed point. It did force you to flatten the left arm out and
                > make your body flat to the bow to draw. I remember aiming being a problem and you did have to lift the arm to
                > adjust that. It may have had to do with the very likely low power bows we probably used. More that that I
                > can't recall.
                >
                > My speculation here is that this may have been a safety consideration for kids, as this was at a summer camp
                > and they might not want to have arrows near the face and eyes- I do not know.
                >
                > Have you thought about trying this position? I wonder how it would work? I may go looking for pictures.
                >
                > Dirk Edward of Frisia
                >
              • James W
                Logan, This matches what I feel is happening. Drawlength is going to change with one s anchor position but a chest draw doesn t shorten the drawlength down. It
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 5, 2010
                  Logan,

                  This matches what I feel is happening. Drawlength is going to change with one's anchor position but a chest draw doesn't shorten the drawlength down.

                  It does change the sight picture and the angle the arrow is pointed at. A chest anchor is just rather extreme case of facewalking.

                  James
                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "logantheboweyder" <logantheboweyder@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I've found that anchor points are matched to the type of shooting you do. Deer hunters, those who learn from other deer hunters, and others who primarily shoot at 40 yards and under anchor to the side of the face. Modern mundane recurve target archers who shoot at 30 to 90 meters anchor under the chin. It seems reasonable that archers who shoot primarily at 100 yards and greater (medieval military archers) would drop their choice of anchor an even greater distance, down to the chest, so as to keep their bow hand or arrow tip in the "sight picture", whether instinctive or sight shooting.
                  >
                  > Experimental archaeology does have its place.
                  >
                  > Logan
                  > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James W" <jameswolfden@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I have often heard people say that the English drew to their ear to get a longer range as opposed to drawing to their chest.
                  > >
                  > > I have always wondered about that. I think the most important thing is a consistent draw which requires an anchor of some kind. I believe this is what Ascham refers to in reference to "keeping a length". As well, I figure the main motivation for going to an ear draw as opposed to chest draw was for aiming purposes. In addition, many of the very long draw asiatic bows are drawn to the chest level.
                  > >
                  > > Like many archers in the SCA, I draw to the corner of my mouth to keep a consistent anchor. It is not as consistent as an under the chin anchor but it is relatively simple and consistent enough for my experiment.
                  > >
                  > > I wanted to see what affect drawing to my ear and drawing to my chest would have on my drawlength. For my ear, I set my anchor as bottom part of the ear where it joins the face. My drawlength increased by 2 inches.
                  > >
                  > > Next I tried the chest anchor. I made the decision to anchor using my sternum. The chest is a pretty big area to pick a consistent anchor so I went for the middle. Many illustrations tend to indicate the middle of the chest. The draw to the chest pretty much matched the draw to the ear - I might give the draw to the ear 1/4 on the trials I did.
                  > >
                  > > But my findings are that there isn't much of a difference in drawing to the ear and drawing to the chest in regards to the power stroke of the bow.
                  > >
                  > > I would be interested in the results of any others testing. I was not at the a range so I did not loose any arrows. I would expect a chest draw would result in needing to aim much lower so make sure you have sufficient range or backstop.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers, James
                  > >
                  >
                • Des & Jan Howard
                  James I did target archery for a while 45 years back. The norm was bow arm & body in line to target, head square on to target, string drawn back until the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Dec 6, 2010
                    James
                    I did target archery for a while 45 years back. The
                    norm was bow arm & body in line to target, head square
                    on to target, string drawn back until the "kissing
                    nock" met the lips. Same stance, drawing string back to
                    thumb at corner of mouth was called "instinctive" &
                    only used for field shooting. Joining the SCA this
                    year & shooting IKAC with the required "instinctive"
                    stance has required some relearning.
                    Ranif

                    On 6/12/2010 9:44 AM, James W wrote:
                    > Interesting, as a former Cub Scout Leader, I have done a bit of archery
                    > with youth and always used the side of mouth as the anchor position.
                    > Were you taught to use the archery T stance or some other stance?

                    -32.656072 149.840624
                  • Carolus
                    I do not understand your comment about required stance. I shoot IKAC with my target stance (the same as your first description) and find no requirement
                    Message 9 of 18 , Dec 6, 2010
                      I do not understand your comment about "required" stance. I shoot IKAC
                      with my target stance (the same as your first description) and find no
                      "requirement" for a stance in the rules.
                      Carolus

                      Des & Jan Howard wrote:
                      > James
                      > I did target archery for a while 45 years back. The
                      > norm was bow arm & body in line to target, head square
                      > on to target, string drawn back until the "kissing
                      > nock" met the lips. Same stance, drawing string back to
                      > thumb at corner of mouth was called "instinctive" &
                      > only used for field shooting. Joining the SCA this
                      > year & shooting IKAC with the required "instinctive"
                      > stance has required some relearning.
                      > Ranif
                      >
                      > On 6/12/2010 9:44 AM, James W wrote:
                      >
                      >> Interesting, as a former Cub Scout Leader, I have done a bit of archery
                      >> with youth and always used the side of mouth as the anchor position.
                      >> Were you taught to use the archery T stance or some other stance?
                      >>
                      >
                      > -32.656072 149.840624
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                      >
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                    • bluecat@neo.rr.com
                      ... A T stance I guess, but it was more like making a truss with your arms being the braces leading to the body. The arms were not level at the shoulder as I
                      Message 10 of 18 , Dec 6, 2010
                        On 12/6/2010 6:51 AM, SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                        >
                        > Interesting, as a former Cub Scout Leader, I have done a bit of archery with youth and always used the side
                        > of mouth as the anchor position.
                        >
                        > Were you taught to use the archery T stance or some other stance?

                        A T stance I guess, but it was more like making a truss with your arms being the braces leading to the body.
                        The arms were not level at the shoulder as I shoot now, although the left arm was at or near level to
                        shoulder. Right elbow pulled straight back across to place the nock on the chest. The draw was moving the arms
                        up to position from the bow pointing toward ground. The maximum draw point was just above my right nipple.

                        >
                        > With youth, I often find the biggest problem is overdrawing the arrow. Using a right nipple anchor in a
                        > T-stance would exaggerate that issue. As I mentioned, just going to the sternum increased my drawlength by
                        > 2" and it is another 3"-4" to my right nipple.

                        Honestly- I hadn't thought about it since I have never drawn or had been taught to draw that way since. It
                        triggered a memory- and I thought you might find it interesting. :-)

                        >
                        > If your stance was head on to the target, that might shorten up the drawlength but is not a normal archery
                        > stance.

                        This was nearly 50 years ago, I would have had no idea if the person teaching me knew what they were doing. I
                        would not have understood more than what I was told back then. Just the same-- I find your experiments
                        interesting, so I thought I would share the memory.

                        Dirk
                      • Des & Jan Howard
                        Hmmm... My apologies good Carolus, that ll teach me to cut & paste text & not proof read. Edited post ... I must admit that though relearning target archery
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 6, 2010
                          Hmmm...
                          My apologies good Carolus, that'll teach me to "cut &
                          paste" text & not proof read.
                          Edited post
                          > Joining the SCA this
                          > year & shooting IKAC with the "instinctive"
                          > stance has required some relearning.
                          I must admit that though relearning target archery was
                          not easy, learning to combat shoot, while wearing a
                          meshed helm, had a much steeper learning curve.
                          Ranif

                          On 7/12/2010 2:04 AM, Carolus wrote:
                          > I do not understand your comment about "required" stance. I shoot IKAC
                          > with my target stance (the same as your first description) and find no
                          > "requirement" for a stance in the rules.
                          > Carolus

                          -32.656072 149.840624
                        • gee
                          The English Longbow is a very hard weapon to master, it s very inefficient and needs a large draw weight to throw that 4oz warhead up to 300 yards. You have to
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 7, 2010
                            The English Longbow is a very hard weapon to master, it's very inefficient and needs a large draw weight to throw that 4oz warhead up to 300 yards. You have to drag that cord back to the ear and shoot as Ascham says 'inside the bow', which you can't do if you are drawing to your chest! You need that extra few inches.
                            Sighting doesn't come into it, you learn to sight drawing the string to the ear - no one said it would be easy.
                            I stand to be corrected but this 'drawing to the pap' comes later in the bow's history, you very rarely see it in any period drawings - they are all shooting in the bow, because it works.
                          • James W
                            Actually many period illustrations show archers drawing to pap. This may be artistic license as showing an archer drawing to ear would obscure the face. I have
                            Message 13 of 18 , Dec 7, 2010
                              Actually many period illustrations show archers drawing to pap. This may be artistic license as showing an archer drawing to ear would obscure the face. I have also seen one illustration where the archer is drawing above his head to leave the face visible.

                              As for it when drawing to pap occurred, in Toxophilus Ascham writes

                              "Drawing well is the best part of shooting. Men in older time used other manner of drawing than we do. They used to draw low at the breast, to the right pap and no further, and this is to be true is plain in Homer, where he describes Pandarus shooting

                              Up to the pap his string did he pull, his shaft to the hard head"

                              Ascham feels that drawing to the ear is stronger and longer but my experiment shows that it is not. Drawing inside the bow to the ear is the same distance as drawing to my sternum. Drawing to my right pap gives me an even greater drawlength then drawing to my ear.

                              I am not trying to learn how to shoot an English Long Bow. I am testing Ascham's belief that drawing to the ear was stronger and longer than drawing to the chest. This is a belief that appears common among archers I have met. Just because Ascham says it it so doesn't make it so.

                              The sighting aspect comes into play because we have to ask ourselves why go to the ear when the right pap provides a longer drawlength thus putting more power into the shot. I feel that archers refined their shooting technique and found that by bring the arrow closer to their dominant eye, it made them more accurate in their shooting.

                              So please, give it a try. Do your experimental results match my own?

                              James



                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "gee" <geebarjay@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The English Longbow is a very hard weapon to master, it's very inefficient and needs a large draw weight to throw that 4oz warhead up to 300 yards. You have to drag that cord back to the ear and shoot as Ascham says 'inside the bow', which you can't do if you are drawing to your chest! You need that extra few inches.
                              > Sighting doesn't come into it, you learn to sight drawing the string to the ear - no one said it would be easy.
                              > I stand to be corrected but this 'drawing to the pap' comes later in the bow's history, you very rarely see it in any period drawings - they are all shooting in the bow, because it works.
                              >
                            • Luigi Kapaj
                              (Sorry for catching up so late, busy with school and all) James, I shoot Mongolian draw, to the chest, and can offer a few comments about the Mongolian
                              Message 14 of 18 , Dec 24, 2010
                                (Sorry for catching up so late, busy with school and all)

                                James,

                                I shoot Mongolian draw, to the chest, and can offer a few comments about the
                                Mongolian technique.

                                #1, both eyes open on the target, what Americans like to call "instinctive
                                shooting", but they do also sight at the same time. Mongolian competitions
                                are at 65/75 meters which can equate to using a knuckle as a sight for the
                                average bow there. Marking a sight is acceptable and common. But as the
                                composite bows are natural material, the draw weight changes according to
                                weather and use, including during the course of a competition so archers who
                                do mark a sight are constantly adjusting it as they shoot. (sunlight and
                                friction from shooting soften/weaken the bow, cold and disuse
                                stiffens/strengthens the bow) I prefer using a distinctive point on the bow
                                or hand as a sight, which is also common. I use a bow which changes weight,
                                at targets which change distance, so making a mark is nearly useless, but
                                having a sight is not.

                                #2, draw to the right side of the chest. Use the nipple or shoulder or a
                                piece of clothing you always shoot in. The Mongol deel often has a button at
                                a convenient spot to use as an anchor. I've seen archers draw to their
                                shoulder as an anchor point. My draw length is 36", longer than any anchor
                                point on the face. Note that Mongols always mark their arrows for draw
                                length. Typically, they use arrows with about an extra 4" of length then use
                                tape to set the draw length they want to use. When you draw, you look at the
                                target, and draw until you FEEL the tape touch your finger. (Remember, no
                                shelf, shooting off the hand) I have my arrows cut more precisely, 36"
                                arrows are hard enough to get in the US, and draw until I feel the arrowhead
                                touch my hand. It even works with speed shooting. Power of a bow comes from
                                the strength in its limbs and draw length, so changing technique will not
                                make a big difference (usually) in range or penetration unless the change
                                equals a different draw length.

                                #3, keep the drawing arm in line with the arrow as much as possible. It is a
                                common problem I see with people first learning a chest draw. Keeping the
                                same horizontal line (parallel to ground) is much more important than the
                                vertical (parallel to chest). The latter being more difficult when first
                                learning as well. The better your arm lines up with the arrow, the easier it
                                will be to get consistency.

                                #4, are you doing the same 3 finger western European draw, just relocating
                                the draw point? That is inferior :) but works well enough, and is the same
                                technique Kassai (the Mounted Archery master) uses. He adapted one element
                                of the Mongol draw into his draw which makes a good learning method. As you
                                release, pull the arrow hand back to full extension in the opposite
                                direction. All thumb draw techniques do this more subtly as a function of
                                the way the string is held, but it also serves to steady the chest level
                                release, especially when done to full extension. When first learning the
                                thumb draw, I developed a bad posture on my drawing arm of hunching my
                                shoulder and not keeping my elbow up, and the full extension corrects and
                                prevents such problems as it forces you to straighten your arm out during
                                release.

                                #5, and most importantly, remember that there is little practical difference
                                to any archery technique you use. (I've tried 4 distinct ones, and maybe a
                                dozen variations on the Mongolian one) It all boils down to things like a
                                steady hand, consistency and focus. Some people pick up a Mongol bow for the
                                first time and start incorrectly making all kinds of assumptions about what
                                they need to do different. For anything which is not explicitly changed from
                                one technique to another, rely on what you already know because it is
                                probably exactly the same.

                                OK, the last one may be my conclusion from similar comparisons, but it is
                                also makes good advice for anyone switching techniques. Let me know how it
                                works out after giving it some time.


                                Puppy
                                http://www.NYCMongol.com


                                .
                              • James W
                                Luigi/Puppy (whichever you prefer) Thanks for comments on the Mongolian Draw. To clarify, when I was looking at the experiment, I was doing a little bit of the
                                Message 15 of 18 , Dec 24, 2010
                                  Luigi/Puppy (whichever you prefer)

                                  Thanks for comments on the Mongolian Draw. To clarify, when I was looking at the experiment, I was doing a little bit of the mythbusters theme. The myth being that drawing to chest results in shorter drawlength.

                                  In the end, it really comes down to where one anchors because the chest is fairly large area.

                                  Currently, my main focus is 14th Century English so I will usually be shooting 3 finger release to the side of the face. I do have a desire to create a second persona at some point that will like be a Chinese Archer probably from the Song Dynasty (just before the Yuan Dynasty). Of course, I would want to do Mongolian draw for that persona. I did have a chance many years ago to meet with Stephen Selby who runs the ATARN website in Hong Kong.

                                  It is interesting that you talk about the tape used by the Mongols to mark their drawlength. Some of the documents on the ATARN website indicate that the arrowhead was used determine anchor rather than a body position. You draw until the base of the arrowhead touches the finger similar to the tape.

                                  However, Ascham describes the same concept in Toxophilus for English Archery. He talks about the best arrowheads for target shooting is one fashioned after a spoon. The spoons he is likely referring to are acorn-knop spoon. This style of arrow head would give a slight lip at the base of the point with the idea that the archer could pull back until he noticed this lip. Ascham goes on to point out that barbed arrows have the problem that archers are reluctant to pull them back to full anchor for fear of the barb.

                                  I have been debating trying this in some fashion and the tape idea should work.

                                  In Service,
                                  James

                                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Luigi Kapaj" <puppy@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > (Sorry for catching up so late, busy with school and all)
                                  >
                                  > James,
                                  >
                                  > I shoot Mongolian draw, to the chest, and can offer a few comments about the
                                  > Mongolian technique.
                                  >
                                  > #1, both eyes open on the target, what Americans like to call "instinctive
                                  > shooting", but they do also sight at the same time. Mongolian competitions
                                  > are at 65/75 meters which can equate to using a knuckle as a sight for the
                                  > average bow there. Marking a sight is acceptable and common. But as the
                                  > composite bows are natural material, the draw weight changes according to
                                  > weather and use, including during the course of a competition so archers who
                                  > do mark a sight are constantly adjusting it as they shoot. (sunlight and
                                  > friction from shooting soften/weaken the bow, cold and disuse
                                  > stiffens/strengthens the bow) I prefer using a distinctive point on the bow
                                  > or hand as a sight, which is also common. I use a bow which changes weight,
                                  > at targets which change distance, so making a mark is nearly useless, but
                                  > having a sight is not.
                                  >
                                  > #2, draw to the right side of the chest. Use the nipple or shoulder or a
                                  > piece of clothing you always shoot in. The Mongol deel often has a button at
                                  > a convenient spot to use as an anchor. I've seen archers draw to their
                                  > shoulder as an anchor point. My draw length is 36", longer than any anchor
                                  > point on the face. Note that Mongols always mark their arrows for draw
                                  > length. Typically, they use arrows with about an extra 4" of length then use
                                  > tape to set the draw length they want to use. When you draw, you look at the
                                  > target, and draw until you FEEL the tape touch your finger. (Remember, no
                                  > shelf, shooting off the hand) I have my arrows cut more precisely, 36"
                                  > arrows are hard enough to get in the US, and draw until I feel the arrowhead
                                  > touch my hand. It even works with speed shooting. Power of a bow comes from
                                  > the strength in its limbs and draw length, so changing technique will not
                                  > make a big difference (usually) in range or penetration unless the change
                                  > equals a different draw length.
                                  >
                                  > #3, keep the drawing arm in line with the arrow as much as possible. It is a
                                  > common problem I see with people first learning a chest draw. Keeping the
                                  > same horizontal line (parallel to ground) is much more important than the
                                  > vertical (parallel to chest). The latter being more difficult when first
                                  > learning as well. The better your arm lines up with the arrow, the easier it
                                  > will be to get consistency.
                                  >
                                  > #4, are you doing the same 3 finger western European draw, just relocating
                                  > the draw point? That is inferior :) but works well enough, and is the same
                                  > technique Kassai (the Mounted Archery master) uses. He adapted one element
                                  > of the Mongol draw into his draw which makes a good learning method. As you
                                  > release, pull the arrow hand back to full extension in the opposite
                                  > direction. All thumb draw techniques do this more subtly as a function of
                                  > the way the string is held, but it also serves to steady the chest level
                                  > release, especially when done to full extension. When first learning the
                                  > thumb draw, I developed a bad posture on my drawing arm of hunching my
                                  > shoulder and not keeping my elbow up, and the full extension corrects and
                                  > prevents such problems as it forces you to straighten your arm out during
                                  > release.
                                  >
                                  > #5, and most importantly, remember that there is little practical difference
                                  > to any archery technique you use. (I've tried 4 distinct ones, and maybe a
                                  > dozen variations on the Mongolian one) It all boils down to things like a
                                  > steady hand, consistency and focus. Some people pick up a Mongol bow for the
                                  > first time and start incorrectly making all kinds of assumptions about what
                                  > they need to do different. For anything which is not explicitly changed from
                                  > one technique to another, rely on what you already know because it is
                                  > probably exactly the same.
                                  >
                                  > OK, the last one may be my conclusion from similar comparisons, but it is
                                  > also makes good advice for anyone switching techniques. Let me know how it
                                  > works out after giving it some time.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Puppy
                                  > http://www.NYCMongol.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > .
                                  >
                                • Luigi Kapaj
                                  James, Happy to help. Upon reading this, I have one more thing to add. I have been told by someone knowledgeable in Native American archery that some tribe(s)
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Dec 27, 2010
                                    James,

                                    Happy to help. Upon reading this, I have one more thing to add.

                                    I have been told by someone knowledgeable in Native American archery that
                                    some tribe(s) (for that detail, maybe from the Great Plains) draw 3 fingers
                                    to chest/stomach underhand. As you say, the chest is a big area so where on
                                    the chest is critical. The underhand style I think (have not tried it) would
                                    always be a shorter draw than to the face and may not be exclusive to this
                                    group. The Mongol style (and here I should more properly say all Asiatic
                                    thumb draw styles I am familiar with having similarity to the Mongol
                                    specific style) would have a longer draw length than to the face. A tape
                                    measure is enough to prove that.

                                    I've met Selbey at the Intl. Mounted Archery festival a few years back. Very
                                    knowledgeable fellow and a good archer. His book has an interesting story
                                    about an old archery master wanting to change his technique, but had such
                                    muscle memory that he needed to learn the new technique left handed. I think
                                    it also mentions that by the Song dynasty, the Chinese had fully switched
                                    over to the Mongolian technique - the last reference to the more ancient
                                    Chinese style being around the Tang. That will make being accurate to the
                                    persona easier.

                                    Also, there is an SCA-China yahoo group worth joining.


                                    <<
                                    However, Ascham describes the same concept in Toxophilus for English
                                    Archery...
                                    >>

                                    Sounds like we are talking the exact same technique. I go by the feel of the
                                    wood shaft changing to the metal of the field tip for SCA archery, and with
                                    Mongolian archery the wider horn tips work exactly as having a barbless
                                    broad head. If you try it, keep in mind overdrawing could pull the noch off
                                    the string.


                                    BTW- I use Puppy for anything SCA, or formally:

                                    Gulugjab Tangghudai, AoA OM KOE FT QOC
                                    Khan of the Silver Horde
                                    (Puppy is the English translation of the first part)
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