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Re: [SCA-Archery] Historical quiver construction

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  • Carolus
    I think you are asking two questions here. On the one hand you are asking What is a proper quiver design? The answer to that is quite simple, a container
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 3, 2010
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      I think you are asking two questions here. On the one hand you are
      asking "What is a 'proper' quiver design?" The answer to that is quite
      simple, a container which safely and conveniently holds the arrows in a
      fashion comfortable to the archer. On the other hand you are asking
      "What is an authentic historical quiver design?" Unfortunately, that
      question will never have an answer. Or perhaps it will have too many
      answers. You do not include some very pertinent qualifications, namely
      at what time and in what culture? As you can see from the discussion so
      far, there are a number of guesses from the evidence so far but that is
      all wee really have, guesses. The best we can do is pick an example we
      like, set up a quiver which works for us, try to avoid the use of
      materials and techniques which obviously look post 16th century, and
      have fun.
      Carolus

      warbow67 wrote:
      > Since we have had a bit of a discussion of the authenticity of shoulder quivers VS belt quivers, I suppose now is the time to ask: What IS the proper design for a quiver?
      >
      > I am looking to construct a tube quiver for a waistbelt but what are the details?(I like the look of the ones on the Bayeux Tapestry, as also I do a Norman impression). I have always wondered about modern replicas and how accurate they are. Are they really made with all that rawhide lacing? My own leatherwork experience makes me think there was more traditional stitching involved than what is currently being represented. I have seen some Saxon ones made by that reverend in England on his blog, but what are the sources? And what is the proper way to attach it to the belt?
      >
      > A lot of questions I know, but after months of searching so far I cannot find the answers.
      >
      > Dave H
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3293 - Release Date: 12/02/10 04:18:00
      >
      >
    • John edgerton
      Take a look at: http://www.larsdatter.com/archers.htm for some period illustrations of archers and their gear, including quivers. I do not think there were
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 3, 2010
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        Take a look at:


        for some period illustrations of archers and their gear, including quivers.  I do not think there were any early Norman quivers,  but it is still worth looking at. 

        Jon

        On Dec 3, 2010, at 6:35 AM, warbow67 wrote:

         

        Since we have had a bit of a discussion of the authenticity of shoulder quivers VS belt quivers, I suppose now is the time to ask: What IS the proper design for a quiver?

        I am looking to construct a tube quiver for a waistbelt but what are the details?(I like the look of the ones on the Bayeux Tapestry, as also I do a Norman impression). I have always wondered about modern replicas and how accurate they are. Are they really made with all that rawhide lacing? My own leatherwork experience makes me think there was more traditional stitching involved than what is currently being represented. I have seen some Saxon ones made by that reverend in England on his blog, but what are the sources? And what is the proper way to attach it to the belt?

        A lot of questions I know, but after months of searching so far I cannot find the answers.

        Dave H


      • i_griffen
        Dave the question you ask is open to to interpation of the reader. Think sbout this, most archers were hunters how would they design a quiver that would work
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 3, 2010
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          Dave the question you ask is open to to interpation of the reader.

          Think sbout this, most archers were hunters how would they design a quiver that would work in the area(s) they hunt. Are they hunting open ground or in underbrush? Also consider the number of shafts they might have carried. Also think about the cost of materials in that time period, would a simple belt quiver have less material needed than a back. Then consider what would be avalible, leather from deer, elk, bear,cow, pig or even cloth. But, then again they might have carried their shafts in their belt.

          Now for Pictures, remember any of the above would wear out over time. the lighter the material the shorter of a life span it would have. ie. early bows, bodkin points, bird blunts, swords etc. Keeping in mind the if the Item(s) are exposed to the elements its life is shortend therefore rot and or rust away, meaning no edivence of its existance. To find proof of existance you may have to outside of Europe.

          Consider this how many bow strings and arrows from the from the Battle of Crecy, Hastings or the other battles of the Hundred years war..

          Until I quit searching I searched for documentation for Flemish bow strings for 8 years.

          Excuse the ramblings, many thoughts at one time I have pondered this a time or two. Also I don't post very often

          Iain Griffen


          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "warbow67" <warbow67@...> wrote:
          >
          > Since we have had a bit of a discussion of the authenticity of shoulder quivers VS belt quivers, I suppose now is the time to ask: What IS the proper design for a quiver?
          >
          > I am looking to construct a tube quiver for a waistbelt but what are the details?(I like the look of the ones on the Bayeux Tapestry, as also I do a Norman impression). I have always wondered about modern replicas and how accurate they are. Are they really made with all that rawhide lacing? My own leatherwork experience makes me think there was more traditional stitching involved than what is currently being represented. I have seen some Saxon ones made by that reverend in England on his blog, but what are the sources? And what is the proper way to attach it to the belt?
          >
          > A lot of questions I know, but after months of searching so far I cannot find the answers.
          >
          > Dave H
          >
        • Taslen
          Iain, Very good points that we need to take into consideration the more of these type of posts the better! It makes me want to develop more of my persona over
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 3, 2010
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            Iain,
             
            Very good points that we need to take into consideration the more of these type of posts the better! It makes me want to develop more of my persona over this winter.
             
            Gaelen O'Grady
            Marche of the Towers
             
            BTW good to see you posting!


            From: i_griffen <i_griffen@...>
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 5:57:47 PM
            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Historical quiver construction

             

            Dave the question you ask is open to to interpation of the reader.

            Think sbout this, most archers were hunters how would they design a quiver that would work in the area(s) they hunt. Are they hunting open ground or in underbrush? Also consider the number of shafts they might have carried. Also think about the cost of materials in that time period, would a simple belt quiver have less material needed than a back. Then consider what would be avalible, leather from deer, elk, bear,cow, pig or even cloth. But, then again they might have carried their shafts in their belt.

            Now for Pictures, remember any of the above would wear out over time. the lighter the material the shorter of a life span it would have. ie. early bows, bodkin points, bird blunts, swords etc. Keeping in mind the if the Item(s) are exposed to the elements its life is shortend therefore rot and or rust away, meaning no edivence of its existance. To find proof of existance you may have to outside of Europe.

            Consider this how many bow strings and arrows from the from the Battle of Crecy, Hastings or the other battles of the Hundred years war..

            Until I quit searching I searched for documentation for Flemish bow strings for 8 years.

            Excuse the ramblings, many thoughts at one time I have pondered this a time or two. Also I don't post very often

            Iain Griffen

            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "warbow67" <warbow67@...> wrote:
            >
            > Since we have had a bit of a discussion of the authenticity of shoulder quivers VS belt quivers, I suppose now is the time to ask: What IS the proper design for a quiver?
            >
            > I am looking to construct a tube quiver for a waistbelt but what are the details?(I like the look of the ones on the Bayeux Tapestry, as also I do a Norman impression). I have always wondered about modern replicas and how accurate they are. Are they really made with all that rawhide lacing? My own leatherwork experience makes me think there was more traditional stitching involved than what is currently being represented. I have seen some Saxon ones made by that reverend in England on his blog, but what are the sources? And what is the proper way to attach it to the belt?
            >
            > A lot of questions I know, but after months of searching so far I cannot find the answers.
            >
            > Dave H
            >


          • warbow67
            ... You do not include some very pertinent qualifications, namely ... Actually I did. I said Norman impression, Bayeux Tapestry. That nails it down to the
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 3, 2010
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              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:

              You do not include some very pertinent qualifications, namely
              > at what time and in what culture?

              > Carolus

              -------------------------------------


              Actually I did. I said Norman impression, Bayeux Tapestry. That nails it down to the Battle of Hastings 1066. I want to replicate the quivers the archers in the tapestry are using. Are there any surviving historical examples? Has anyone attempted a replica? What construction materials? What dimensions? How does it attach to the belt?

              Thanks for all responses.
              Dave H
            • Carolus
              That was kind of buried in the post and required some assumptions to be made which I was not willing to make at the time. Since the tapestry also has
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 3, 2010
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                That was kind of buried in the post and required some assumptions to be
                made which I was not willing to make at the time. Since the tapestry
                also has indications applicable to the Saxons (who also had archers at
                the time, just not at Hastings in any great number) and the work
                includes cultural influences covering nearly a century I didn't want to
                put too many of my own interpretations on what you were looking for.

                Unfortunately, the Tapestry is the best evidence we have. I know of no
                surviving examples, certainly no well documented descriptions or plans,
                and no other graphic sources. If someone has found some please let me know.
                Carolus

                warbow67 wrote:
                > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                >
                > You do not include some very pertinent qualifications, namely
                >
                >> at what time and in what culture?
                >>
                >
                >
                >> Carolus
                >>
                >
                > -------------------------------------
                >
                >
                > Actually I did. I said Norman impression, Bayeux Tapestry. That nails it down to the Battle of Hastings 1066. I want to replicate the quivers the archers in the tapestry are using. Are there any surviving historical examples? Has anyone attempted a replica? What construction materials? What dimensions? How does it attach to the belt?
                >
                > Thanks for all responses.
                > Dave H
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >
                >
                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3293 - Release Date: 12/02/10 04:18:00
                >
                >
              • i_griffen
                Besides the Bayeuex Tapestry, there may be referance to quivers from the crusades. Does anyone have a copy of the Grey Goosewing it has a lot of info on
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 4, 2010
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                  Besides the Bayeuex Tapestry, there may be referance to quivers from the crusades.

                  Does anyone have a copy of the Grey Goosewing it has a lot of info on historical archery tackle. Keeping in mind the basic Archery tackle has not really changed in the past 500 years. Also of one was to search for online books they might find outdated/no longer published versions that are avalible online.

                  As to attach a quiver to a belt, consider this: how was a theives purse attached to a belt/strap? Remember to figure this you may have to use scientific methods to solve this puzzle. Also known as reverse enginering, start with the complex work toward the simple.


                  I wish you the best
                  Iain Griffen


                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > That was kind of buried in the post and required some assumptions to be
                  > made which I was not willing to make at the time. Since the tapestry
                  > also has indications applicable to the Saxons (who also had archers at
                  > the time, just not at Hastings in any great number) and the work
                  > includes cultural influences covering nearly a century I didn't want to
                  > put too many of my own interpretations on what you were looking for.
                  >
                  > Unfortunately, the Tapestry is the best evidence we have. I know of no
                  > surviving examples, certainly no well documented descriptions or plans,
                  > and no other graphic sources. If someone has found some please let me know.
                  > Carolus
                  >
                  > warbow67 wrote:
                  > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > You do not include some very pertinent qualifications, namely
                  > >
                  > >> at what time and in what culture?
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >> Carolus
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > > -------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Actually I did. I said Norman impression, Bayeux Tapestry. That nails it down to the Battle of Hastings 1066. I want to replicate the quivers the archers in the tapestry are using. Are there any surviving historical examples? Has anyone attempted a replica? What construction materials? What dimensions? How does it attach to the belt?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for all responses.
                  > > Dave H
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  > > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3293 - Release Date: 12/02/10 04:18:00
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Joe LaTorre
                  I designed my hip quiver based on an illustration in John Hewitt s Ancient Armour and Weapons. Hope the following link works for you:
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 5, 2010
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                    I designed my hip quiver based on an illustration in John Hewitt's Ancient Armour and Weapons.
                    Hope the following link works for you:


                    According to the text, the illustration is 13th century. You can't tell much about materials here - I used leather, though I think the crosshatching suggests basketwork. Also, I suspend at an angle with straps, rather than vertically as shown.

                    Joseph de la Tour, West Kingdom

                    On Dec 3, 2010, at 6:35 AM, warbow67 wrote:

                    Since we have had a bit of a discussion of the authenticity of shoulder quivers VS belt quivers, I suppose now is the time to ask: What IS the proper design for a quiver?

                    I am looking to construct a tube quiver for a waistbelt but what are the details?(I like the look of the ones on the Bayeux Tapestry, as also I do a Norman impression). I have always wondered about modern replicas and how accurate they are. Are they really made with all that rawhide lacing? My own leatherwork experience makes me think there was more traditional stitching involved than what is currently being represented. I have seen some Saxon ones made by that reverend in England on his blog, but what are the sources? And what is the proper way to attach it to the belt?

                    A lot of questions I know, but after months of searching so far I cannot find the answers.

                    Dave H


                  • Joe LaTorre
                    I did a little further research, and found the original manuscript in the British Library:
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 5, 2010
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                      I did a little further research, and found the original manuscript in the British Library:


                      I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the illustration purportedly shows an event in the Trojan War!

                      Joseph

                      On Dec 5, 2010, at 2:56 PM, Joe LaTorre wrote:

                      I designed my hip quiver based on an illustration in John Hewitt's Ancient Armour and Weapons.

                      Hope the following link works for you:


                      According to the text, the illustration is 13th century. You can't tell much about materials here - I used leather, though I think the crosshatching suggests basketwork. Also, I suspend at an angle with straps, rather than vertically as shown.

                      Joseph de la Tour, West Kingdom

                      On Dec 3, 2010, at 6:35 AM, warbow67 wrote:

                      Since we have had a bit of a discussion of the authenticity of shoulder quivers VS belt quivers, I suppose now is the time to ask: What IS the proper design for a quiver?

                      I am looking to construct a tube quiver for a waistbelt but what are the details?(I like the look of the ones on the Bayeux Tapestry, as also I do a Norman impression). I have always wondered about modern replicas and how accurate they are. Are they really made with all that rawhide lacing? My own leatherwork experience makes me think there was more traditional stitching involved than what is currently being represented. I have seen some Saxon ones made by that reverend in England on his blog, but what are the sources? And what is the proper way to attach it to the belt?

                      A lot of questions I know, but after months of searching so far I cannot find the answers.

                      Dave H




                    • Carolus
                      I find several things about this illustration very interesting. Considering the time period, the use of full mail, a closed sugarloaf helm, and a mounted
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 5, 2010
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                        I find several things about this illustration very interesting.
                        Considering the time period, the use of full mail, a closed sugarloaf
                        helm, and a mounted warrior on a caparisoned mount with heraldry in a
                        colored manuscript would tend the indicate the use of archery by a
                        member of the noble class is not unacceptable or unknown. While not
                        conclusive, it IS highly suggestive. I also note the depiction of a
                        non-working recurve showing an awareness of the design at the time
                        though it does appear to be a shortbow.
                        Carolus

                        Joe LaTorre wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > I designed my hip quiver based on an illustration in John Hewitt's
                        > _Ancient Armour and Weapons.
                        > _
                        > Hope the following link works for you:
                        >
                        > http://www.archive.org/stream/ancientarmourwea00hewirich#page/
                        > <http://www.archive.org/stream/ancientarmourwea00hewirich#page/194>194
                        >
                        > According to the text, the illustration is 13th century. You can't
                        > tell much about materials here - I used leather, though I think the
                        > crosshatching suggests basketwork. Also, I suspend at an angle with
                        > straps, rather than vertically as shown.
                        >
                        > Joseph de la Tour, West Kingdom
                        >
                        > On Dec 3, 2010, at 6:35 AM, warbow67 wrote:
                        >
                        >> Since we have had a bit of a discussion of the authenticity of
                        >> shoulder quivers VS belt quivers, I suppose now is the time to ask:
                        >> What IS the proper design for a quiver?
                        >>
                        >> I am looking to construct a tube quiver for a waistbelt but what are
                        >> the details?(I like the look of the ones on the Bayeux Tapestry, as
                        >> also I do a Norman impression). I have always wondered about modern
                        >> replicas and how accurate they are. Are they really made with all
                        >> that rawhide lacing? My own leatherwork experience makes me think
                        >> there was more traditional stitching involved than what is currently
                        >> being represented. I have seen some Saxon ones made by that reverend
                        >> in England on his blog, but what are the sources? And what is the
                        >> proper way to attach it to the belt?
                        >>
                        >> A lot of questions I know, but after months of searching so far I
                        >> cannot find the answers.
                        >>
                        >> Dave H
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3297 - Release Date: 12/04/10 11:34:00
                        >
                        >
                      • John edgerton
                        The illustration is titled The Death of Palamedes The Palamedes from Greek myth was stoned to death. So this might be the one with the questing beast from
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 5, 2010
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                          The illustration is titled "The Death of Palamedes"

                          The Palamedes from Greek myth was stoned to death. 

                          So this might be the one with the questing beast from the Arthur legends. Or some other.

                          Jon


                          On Dec 5, 2010, at 3:18 PM, Joe LaTorre wrote:

                           

                          I did a little further research, and found the original manuscript in the British Library:



                          I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the illustration purportedly shows an event in the Trojan War!

                          Joseph
                        • John edgerton
                          I did some looking on line and found the source for the drawing in the book. Mounted Archer, from Roy. MS. Universelle, 20, D. i. fol. 127: Histoire and other
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 5, 2010
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                            I did some looking on line and found the source for the drawing in the book.  

                            Mounted Archer, from Roy. MS. Universelle, 20, D. i. fol. 127: Histoire and other tracts. 

                            But, I can not find any additional information about what/who it is an illustration of.  The original source seems to have been written about 1300.  Could anyone track this down?

                            Jon

                            On Dec 5, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Carolus wrote:

                             

                            I find several things about this illustration very interesting.
                            Considering the time period, the use of full mail, a closed sugarloaf
                            helm, and a mounted warrior on a caparisoned mount with heraldry in a
                            colored manuscript would tend the indicate the use of archery by a
                            member of the noble class is not unacceptable or unknown. While not
                            conclusive, it IS highly suggestive. I also note the depiction of a
                            non-working recurve showing an awareness of the design at the time
                            though it does appear to be a shortbow.
                            Carolus

                            Joe LaTorre wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > I designed my hip quiver based on an illustration in John Hewitt's
                            > _Ancient Armour and Weapons.
                            > _
                            > Hope the following link works for you:
                            >
                            > http://www.archive.org/stream/ancientarmourwea00hewirich#page/
                            > <http://www.archive.org/stream/ancientarmourwea00hewirich#page/194>194
                            >
                            > According to the text, the illustration is 13th century. You can't
                            > tell much about materials here - I used leather, though I think the
                            > crosshatching suggests basketwork. Also, I suspend at an angle with
                            > straps, rather than vertically as shown.
                            >
                            > Joseph de la Tour, West Kingdom
                            >
                            > On Dec 3, 2010, at 6:35 AM, warbow67 wrote:
                            >
                            >> Since we have had a bit of a discussion of the authenticity of
                            >> shoulder quivers VS belt quivers, I suppose now is the time to ask:
                            >> What IS the proper design for a quiver?
                            >>
                            >> I am looking to construct a tube quiver for a waistbelt but what are
                            >> the details?(I like the look of the ones on the Bayeux Tapestry, as
                            >> also I do a Norman impression). I have always wondered about modern
                            >> replicas and how accurate they are. Are they really made with all
                            >> that rawhide lacing? My own leatherwork experience makes me think
                            >> there was more traditional stitching involved than what is currently
                            >> being represented. I have seen some Saxon ones made by that reverend
                            >> in England on his blog, but what are the sources? And what is the
                            >> proper way to attach it to the belt?
                            >>
                            >> A lot of questions I know, but after months of searching so far I
                            >> cannot find the answers.
                            >>
                            >> Dave H
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3297 - Release Date: 12/04/10 11:34:00
                            >
                            >


                          • warbow67
                            Excellent source. I think the crosshatching is actually leather as there is some identical for the saddle belt under the horse, I doubt that would be
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 6, 2010
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                              Excellent source. I think the crosshatching is actually leather as there is some identical for the saddle belt under the horse, I doubt that would be basketwork, so I think it is leather that that serves to reinforce the quiver at the top and bottom.

                              But how would you interpret the rounded bottom in the illustration? Is it a typical flat bottom for a tube quiver, or does it suggest a flattened quiver body instead of a tube? A picture of yours would be helpful.

                              Thanks,
                              Dave H


                              ----------------------------


                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Joe LaTorre <latorrej@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I designed my hip quiver based on an illustration in John Hewitt's
                              > Ancient Armour and Weapons.
                              > Hope the following link works for you:
                              >
                              > http://www.archive.org/stream/ancientarmourwea00hewirich#page/194
                              >
                              > According to the text, the illustration is 13th century. You can't
                              > tell much about materials here - I used leather, though I think the
                              > crosshatching suggests basketwork. Also, I suspend at an angle with
                              > straps, rather than vertically as shown.
                              >
                              > Joseph de la Tour, West Kingdom
                            • warbow67
                              Even better. Now that I see the original work, I believe it is indeed a tube body but pinched closed at the bottom. This would make for a very curious project,
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 6, 2010
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                                Even better. Now that I see the original work, I believe it is indeed a tube body but pinched closed at the bottom. This would make for a very curious project, I already have ideas. And it does match the same design for the Bayeux Tapestry quivers that also look like tubes with rounded bottoms. I believe I can do this, results will be forthcoming.

                                Many more thanks,
                                Dave H


                                ----------------------------



                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Joe LaTorre <latorrej@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I did a little further research, and found the original manuscript in
                                > the British Library:
                                >
                                > http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=42688
                                >
                                > I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the illustration purportedly
                                > shows an event in the Trojan War!
                                >
                                > Joseph
                              • The Greys
                                Folks I am NOT a nit picker however a few comments about these two pictures which I have seen before. First off our view point is from the archer s back as
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 6, 2010
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                                  Folks I am NOT a nit picker however a few comments about these two pictures which I have seen before. First off our view point is from the archer's back as evidenced by the bow arm crossing in front of the bow and either the archer has had his right arm hacked off at the elbow, thus he is a one armed archer(?), or it is in the draw position. Thus his quiver is either on his bow arm side or on his back. I doubt it would be on his back due to the physical mechanics of how a person sits a horse. In either case it would seem nearly impossible to draw an arrow from the quiver. If on his bow arm side he would have to reach across his body to get an arrow. If mounted vertically at the center of his back it would seem extremely ackward and of no advantage in a battle. So my main point here then is that these are artist's renditions of battles they most likely were told about and the artists were not archers themselves and thus totally unfamiliar with how an archer would actually wear or use their gear. Thus, while these do serve as a bit of reference to how things were done in the past, I do not think we should be taking them so literaly. I view these as "suggestions" as to how things may have been.

                                  cog
                                • Carolus
                                  Agreed, they should be taken as suggestions , however, I have used my quiver on my bow arm side and seen other do so as well. I also suspect that both the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 6, 2010
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                                    Agreed, they should be taken as "suggestions", however, I have used my
                                    quiver on my bow arm side and seen other do so as well. I also suspect
                                    that both the basketwork and leather suggestions may be correct. belts
                                    have often been made of woven leather strips and this would be an
                                    excellent method of making a bottom and reinforced top for a quiver.
                                    Remember what was posted earlier about conservation of materials.
                                    Carolus

                                    The Greys wrote:
                                    > Folks I am NOT a nit picker however a few comments about these two pictures which I have seen before. First off our view point is from the archer's back as evidenced by the bow arm crossing in front of the bow and either the archer has had his right arm hacked off at the elbow, thus he is a one armed archer(?), or it is in the draw position. Thus his quiver is either on his bow arm side or on his back. I doubt it would be on his back due to the physical mechanics of how a person sits a horse. In either case it would seem nearly impossible to draw an arrow from the quiver. If on his bow arm side he would have to reach across his body to get an arrow. If mounted vertically at the center of his back it would seem extremely ackward and of no advantage in a battle. So my main point here then is that these are artist's renditions of battles they most likely were told about and the artists were not archers themselves and thus totally unfamiliar with how an archer would actually wear or use their gear. Thus, while these do serve as a bit of reference to how things were done in the past, I do not think we should be taking them so literaly. I view these as "suggestions" as to how things may have been.
                                    >
                                    > cog
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • warbow67
                                    I have uploaded my initial interpretation of this quiver in the Photos (13th C Quiver), based on what I can see in the details of that painting. Dave H
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 6, 2010
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                                      I have uploaded my initial interpretation of this quiver in the Photos (13th C Quiver), based on what I can see in the details of that painting.

                                      Dave H
                                    • i_griffen
                                      ... Cog you make some valid points. Consider this, if one was to take the Quiver and place it verticaly along the lower back. I think this would work if one
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 6, 2010
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                                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Agreed, they should be taken as "suggestions", however, I have used my
                                        > quiver on my bow arm side and seen other do so as well. I also suspect
                                        > that both the basketwork and leather suggestions may be correct. belts
                                        > have often been made of woven leather strips and this would be an
                                        > excellent method of making a bottom and reinforced top for a quiver.
                                        > Remember what was posted earlier about conservation of materials.
                                        > Carolus
                                        >
                                        > The Greys wrote:
                                        > > Folks I am NOT a nit picker however a few comments about these two pictures which I have seen before. First off our view point is from the archer's back as evidenced by the bow arm crossing in front of the bow and either the archer has had his right arm hacked off at the elbow, thus he is a one armed archer(?), or it is in the draw position. Thus his quiver is either on his bow arm side or on his back. I doubt it would be on his back due to the physical mechanics of how a person sits a horse. In either case it would seem nearly impossible to draw an arrow from the quiver. If on his bow arm side he would have to reach across his body to get an arrow. If mounted vertically at the center of his back it would seem extremely ackward and of no advantage in a battle. So my main point here then is that these are artist's renditions of battles they most likely were told about and the artists were not archers themselves and thus totally unfamiliar with how an archer would actually wear or use their gear. Thus, while these do serve as a bit of reference to how things were done in the past, I do not think we should be taking them so literaly. I view these as "suggestions" as to how things may have been.
                                        > >
                                        > > cog
                                        > >

                                        Cog you make some valid points. Consider this, if one was to take the Quiver and place it verticaly along the lower back. I think this would work if one was sitting on a horse, chair or standing.

                                        What do you think

                                        Iain Griffen
                                      • The Greys
                                        Ian, Your comment was vertically along the lower back . Given that as written I don t think it would work as the lower half of the quiver would be hitting
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Dec 7, 2010
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                                          Ian,
                                          Your comment was "vertically along the lower back". Given that as written I don't think it would work as the lower half of the quiver would be hitting the saddle. Now if you meant horizontally that could work as the quiver would be laying crosswise to the saddle with the fletches sticking out one side for easy access. But that also brings up another point about quivers. Pictures of an actual Mongol style quivers that I have seen have arrow loops inside them. That is, each loop holds one arrow snugly inside the quiver. If one were actually fighting from horse back this would help to keep the arrows from bouncing out of the quiver. I made a quiver like this and it works very well while not making it any more difficult to extract an arrow from the quiver. The "challenge" is putting the arrows in the quiver one loop at a time.

                                          As for having the quiver on the bow arm side, I have seen that as well. It seems ackward to me but I've seen folks do it and do it well. The most unusual method I've ever seen was one fellow at Pennsic. He used a back quiver, fairly standard but his method for extracting an arrow and nocking it was unusual. He was a right hand shooter. After shooting a shaft he would sling his bow over his right arm, string to outside, bow limbs to inside. He would then reach through the bow to extract an arrow from his back quiver. As he extracted the arrow he would bring the bow back to the normal shooting position whereupon the arrow would be positioned for nocking. Nock, draw, fire as usual. When I first saw him do it, I thought, why is he only shooting one arrow, as many archers will sling their bow over their shoulder when not shooting. I've tried this technique but all I can say is it would take me a LOT of practice to get it down pat.

                                          My personal preference for a quiver is a side style. I extract arrows by the nock which allows me to nock them to the string faster as I'm controlling the nock end of the arrow with some degree of precision. Now for going to and fro the range at the big wars, Pennsic in particular, I have found a side quiver most unsuitable! One hand is dedicated to the quiver to prevent it from twisting around between my legs and tripping me and the other hand is dedicated to carrying the bow. Thus I have NO hand free to enjoy my mahrvelous Pennsic ice cream! A condition most unsuitable! Thus I have made what I call my Pennsic quiver. It simply has a back strap so the quiver can be worn/used back style. On the back of the quiver are two straps for tying the bow on for carrying. Everything is on my back and hands are free for the obvious reason stated previously. When I get to the range I take the bow off the quiver and wrap the back strap around the quiver and hang the quiver side style. Oh yeah, and I wipe the last of the Pennsic ice cream from my face before shooting! :-)

                                          cog
                                          If you are not having fun, you should be doing something else......


                                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "i_griffen" <i_griffen@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Agreed, they should be taken as "suggestions", however, I have used my
                                          > > quiver on my bow arm side and seen other do so as well. I also suspect
                                          > > that both the basketwork and leather suggestions may be correct. belts
                                          > > have often been made of woven leather strips and this would be an
                                          > > excellent method of making a bottom and reinforced top for a quiver.
                                          > > Remember what was posted earlier about conservation of materials.
                                          > > Carolus
                                          > >
                                          > > The Greys wrote:
                                          > > > Folks I am NOT a nit picker however a few comments about these two pictures which I have seen before. First off our view point is from the archer's back as evidenced by the bow arm crossing in front of the bow and either the archer has had his right arm hacked off at the elbow, thus he is a one armed archer(?), or it is in the draw position. Thus his quiver is either on his bow arm side or on his back. I doubt it would be on his back due to the physical mechanics of how a person sits a horse. In either case it would seem nearly impossible to draw an arrow from the quiver. If on his bow arm side he would have to reach across his body to get an arrow. If mounted vertically at the center of his back it would seem extremely ackward and of no advantage in a battle. So my main point here then is that these are artist's renditions of battles they most likely were told about and the artists were not archers themselves and thus totally unfamiliar with how an archer would actually wear or use their gear. Thus, while these do serve as a bit of reference to how things were done in the past, I do not think we should be taking them so literaly. I view these as "suggestions" as to how things may have been.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > cog
                                          > > >
                                          >
                                          > Cog you make some valid points. Consider this, if one was to take the Quiver and place it verticaly along the lower back. I think this would work if one was sitting on a horse, chair or standing.
                                          >
                                          > What do you think
                                          >
                                          > Iain Griffen
                                          >
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