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Agincourt from a witness.

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  • bluecat@neo.rr.com
    In the history business we live for primary sources- witness accounts of an event from someone who was there. This is a primary source account. Please note the
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 25, 2010
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      In the history business we live for primary sources- witness accounts of an event from someone who was there.
      This is a primary source account.

      Please note the following points:
      1) The archers ( and the whole army ) are lead by a Knight appointed by Henry.
      2) The archers are behind a stake defense in two wings, and are directly attacked by horse.
      3) The ground is very soft- and hard to ride or walk in. The French and their horses are heavily armored.
      4) The French end up compressed together by the English to the point where they can't swing weapons.
      5) The archers carry all kinds of back up weapons and drop their bows to use them, coming out from behind
      their defense to do so. King Henry joins them in their advance.
      6) When Henry is informed that the French are attacking his rear, he orders all captured French Knights
      killed. His own Knights are reluctant to do this as they are worth ransom money, and Henry orders a commander
      with 200 archers to do the job. They then kill the captured French with conventional weapons- ( there is no
      mention of bows and arrows being used) which panics the remaining French who flee for their lives.

      Jehan de Wavrin was the son of a Flemish knight. His father and older brother fought with the French at the
      battle. Both were killed. The young de Wavrin observed the battle from the French lines and we join his
      account as the two armies prepare for combat:

      "When the battalions of the French were thus formed, it was grand to see them; and as far as one could judge
      by the eye, they were in number fully six times as many as the English. And when this was done the French sat
      down by companies around their banners, waiting the approach of the English, and making their peace with one
      another; and then were laid aside many old aversions conceived long ago; some kissed and embraced each other,
      which it was affecting to witness; so that all quarrels and discords which they had had in time past were
      changed to great and perfect love. And there were some who breakfasted on what they had. And these Frenchmen
      remained thus till nine or ten o'clock in the morning, feeling quite assured that, considering their great
      force, the English could not escape them; however, there were at least some of the wisest who greatly feared a
      fight with them in open battle.

      ...The French had arranged their battalions between two small thickets, one lying close to Agincourt, and the
      other to Tramecourt. The place was narrow, and very advantageous for the English, and, on the contrary, very
      ruinous for the French, for the said French had been all night on horseback, and it rained, and the pages,
      grooms, and others, in leading about the horses, had broken up the ground, which was so soft that the horses
      could with difficulty step out of the soil. And also the said French were so loaded with armour that they
      could not support themselves or move forward. In the first place they were armed with long coats of steel,
      reaching to the knees or lower, and very heavy, over the leg harness, and besides plate armour also most of
      them had hooded helmets; wherefore this weight of armour, with the softness of the wet ground, as has been
      said, kept them as if immovable, so that they could raise their dubs only with great difficulty, and with all
      these mischiefs there was this, that most of them were troubled with hunger and want of sleep.

      ...Now let us return to the English. After the parley between the two armies was finished and the delegates
      had returned, each to their own people, the King of England, who had appointed a knight called Sir Thomas
      Erpingham to place his archers in front in two wings, trusted entirely to him, and Sir Thomas, to do his part,
      exhorted every one to do well in the name of the King, begging them to fight vigorously against the French in
      order to secure and save their own lives. And thus the knight, who rode with two others only in front of the
      battalion, seeing that the hour was come, for all things were well arranged, threw up a baton which he held in
      his hand, saying 'Nestrocq' ['Now strike'] which was the signal for attack; then dismounted and joined the
      King, who was also on foot in the midst of his men, with his banner before him.

      Then the English, seeing this signal, began suddenly to march, uttering a very loud cry, which greatly
      surprised the French. And when the English saw that the French did not approach them, they marched dashingly
      towards them in very fine order, and again raised a loud cry as they stopped to take breath.

      Then the English archers, who, as I have said, were in the wings, saw that they were near enough, and began to
      send their arrows on the French with great vigour.

      Then the French seeing the English come towards them in this manner, placed themselves together in order,
      everyone under his banner, their helmets on their heads. The Constable, the Marshal, the admirals, and the
      other princes earnestly exhorted their men to fight the English well and bravely; and when it came to the
      approach the trumpets and clarions resounded everywhere; but the French began to hold down their heads,
      especially those who had no bucklers, for the impetuosity of the English arrows, which fell so heavily that no
      one durst uncover or look up.

      Thus they went forward a little, then made a little retreat, but before they could come to close quarters,
      many of the French were disabled and wounded by the arrows; and when they came quite up to the English, they
      were, as has been said, so closely pressed one against another that none of them could lift their arms to
      strike their enemies, except some that were in front...

      [The French knights] struck into these English archers, who had their stakes fixed in front of them... their.
      horses stumbled among the stakes, and they were speedily slain by the archers, which was a great pity. And
      most of the rest, through fear, gave way and fell back into their vanguard, to whom they were a great
      hindrance; and they opened their ranks in several places, and made them fall back and lose their footing in
      some land newly sown; for their horses had been so wounded by the arrows that the men could no longer manage them.

      [The French] men-at-arms without number began to fall; and their horses feeling the arrows coming upon them
      took to flight before the enemy, and following their example many of the French turned and fled. Soon
      afterwards the English archers, seeing the vanguard thus shaken, issued from behind their stockade, threw away
      their bows and quivers, then took their swords, hatchets, mallets, axes, falcon-beaks and other weapons, and,
      pushing into the places where they saw these breaches, struck down and killed these Frenchmen without mercy,
      and never ceased to kill till the said vanguard which had fought little or not at all was completely
      overwhelmed, and these went on striking right and left till they came upon the second battalion, which was
      behind the advance guard, and there the King personally threw himself into the fight with his men-at-arms.

      As the English continued to gain the upper hand, King Henry received news that the French were attacking at
      the rear of his army and that French reinforcements were approaching. King Henry ordered that all French
      prisoners be put to the sword - an order his knights were reluctant to follow as, if kept alive, these
      prisoners could bring a healthy ransom:

      "When the King of England perceived them coming thus he caused it to be published that every one that had a
      prisoner should immediately kill him, which those who had any were unwilling to do, for they expected to get
      great ransoms for them. But when the King was informed of this he appointed a gentleman with two hundred
      archers whom he commanded to go through the host and kill all the prisoners, whoever they might be. This
      esquire, without delay or objection, fulfilled the command of his sovereign lord, which was a most pitiable
      thing, for in cold blood all the nobility of France was beheaded and inhumanly cut to pieces, and all through
      this accursed company, a sorry set compared with the noble captive chivalry, who when they saw that the
      English were ready to receive them, all immediately turned and fled, each to save his own life. Many of the
      cavalry escaped; but of those on foot there were many among the dead."

      References:
      Wavrin, Jehan de, Chronicles, 1399-1422, trans. Sir W. Hardy and E. Hardy (1887); Keegan, John, The
      Illustrated Face of Battle: a study of Agincourt, Waterloo and the Somme (1989).

      How To Cite This Article:
      "The Battle of Agincourt, 1415" EyeWitness to History, www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (2006).
    • Craig
      Thank you for that information A wonderful read Balinor Avacal An Tir Sent from my iPhone On 2010-10-25, at 8:18 AM, bluecat@neo.rr.com
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 25, 2010
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        Thank you for that information
        A wonderful read

        Balinor
        Avacal
        An Tir

        Sent from my iPhone

        On 2010-10-25, at 8:18 AM, "bluecat@..." <bluecat@...> wrote:

         

        In the history business we live for primary sources- witness accounts of an event from someone who was there.
        This is a primary source account.

        Please note the following points:
        1) The archers ( and the whole army ) are lead by a Knight appointed by Henry.
        2) The archers are behind a stake defense in two wings, and are directly attacked by horse.
        3) The ground is very soft- and hard to ride or walk in. The French and their horses are heavily armored.
        4) The French end up compressed together by the English to the point where they can't swing weapons.
        5) The archers carry all kinds of back up weapons and drop their bows to use them, coming out from behind
        their defense to do so. King Henry joins them in their advance.
        6) When Henry is informed that the French are attacking his rear, he orders all captured French Knights
        killed. His own Knights are reluctant to do this as they are worth ransom money, and Henry orders a commander
        with 200 archers to do the job. They then kill the captured French with conventional weapons- ( there is no
        mention of bows and arrows being used) which panics the remaining French who flee for their lives.

        Jehan de Wavrin was the son of a Flemish knight. His father and older brother fought with the French at the
        battle. Both were killed. The young de Wavrin observed the battle from the French lines and we join his
        account as the two armies prepare for combat:

        "When the battalions of the French were thus formed, it was grand to see them; and as far as one could judge
        by the eye, they were in number fully six times as many as the English. And when this was done the French sat
        down by companies around their banners, waiting the approach of the English, and making their peace with one
        another; and then were laid aside many old aversions conceived long ago; some kissed and embraced each other,
        which it was affecting to witness; so that all quarrels and discords which they had had in time past were
        changed to great and perfect love. And there were some who breakfasted on what they had. And these Frenchmen
        remained thus till nine or ten o'clock in the morning, feeling quite assured that, considering their great
        force, the English could not escape them; however, there were at least some of the wisest who greatly feared a
        fight with them in open battle.

        ...The French had arranged their battalions between two small thickets, one lying close to Agincourt, and the
        other to Tramecourt. The place was narrow, and very advantageous for the English, and, on the contrary, very
        ruinous for the French, for the said French had been all night on horseback, and it rained, and the pages,
        grooms, and others, in leading about the horses, had broken up the ground, which was so soft that the horses
        could with difficulty step out of the soil. And also the said French were so loaded with armour that they
        could not support themselves or move forward. In the first place they were armed with long coats of steel,
        reaching to the knees or lower, and very heavy, over the leg harness, and besides plate armour also most of
        them had hooded helmets; wherefore this weight of armour, with the softness of the wet ground, as has been
        said, kept them as if immovable, so that they could raise their dubs only with great difficulty, and with all
        these mischiefs there was this, that most of them were troubled with hunger and want of sleep.

        ...Now let us return to the English. After the parley between the two armies was finished and the delegates
        had returned, each to their own people, the King of England, who had appointed a knight called Sir Thomas
        Erpingham to place his archers in front in two wings, trusted entirely to him, and Sir Thomas, to do his part,
        exhorted every one to do well in the name of the King, begging them to fight vigorously against the French in
        order to secure and save their own lives. And thus the knight, who rode with two others only in front of the
        battalion, seeing that the hour was come, for all things were well arranged, threw up a baton which he held in
        his hand, saying 'Nestrocq' ['Now strike'] which was the signal for attack; then dismounted and joined the
        King, who was also on foot in the midst of his men, with his banner before him.

        Then the English, seeing this signal, began suddenly to march, uttering a very loud cry, which greatly
        surprised the French. And when the English saw that the French did not approach them, they marched dashingly
        towards them in very fine order, and again raised a loud cry as they stopped to take breath.

        Then the English archers, who, as I have said, were in the wings, saw that they were near enough, and began to
        send their arrows on the French with great vigour.

        Then the French seeing the English come towards them in this manner, placed themselves together in order,
        everyone under his banner, their helmets on their heads. The Constable, the Marshal, the admirals, and the
        other princes earnestly exhorted their men to fight the English well and bravely; and when it came to the
        approach the trumpets and clarions resounded everywhere; but the French began to hold down their heads,
        especially those who had no bucklers, for the impetuosity of the English arrows, which fell so heavily that no
        one durst uncover or look up.

        Thus they went forward a little, then made a little retreat, but before they could come to close quarters,
        many of the French were disabled and wounded by the arrows; and when they came quite up to the English, they
        were, as has been said, so closely pressed one against another that none of them could lift their arms to
        strike their enemies, except some that were in front...

        [The French knights] struck into these English archers, who had their stakes fixed in front of them... their.
        horses stumbled among the stakes, and they were speedily slain by the archers, which was a great pity. And
        most of the rest, through fear, gave way and fell back into their vanguard, to whom they were a great
        hindrance; and they opened their ranks in several places, and made them fall back and lose their footing in
        some land newly sown; for their horses had been so wounded by the arrows that the men could no longer manage them.

        [The French] men-at-arms without number began to fall; and their horses feeling the arrows coming upon them
        took to flight before the enemy, and following their example many of the French turned and fled. Soon
        afterwards the English archers, seeing the vanguard thus shaken, issued from behind their stockade, threw away
        their bows and quivers, then took their swords, hatchets, mallets, axes, falcon-beaks and other weapons, and,
        pushing into the places where they saw these breaches, struck down and killed these Frenchmen without mercy,
        and never ceased to kill till the said vanguard which had fought little or not at all was completely
        overwhelmed, and these went on striking right and left till they came upon the second battalion, which was
        behind the advance guard, and there the King personally threw himself into the fight with his men-at-arms.

        As the English continued to gain the upper hand, King Henry received news that the French were attacking at
        the rear of his army and that French reinforcements were approaching. King Henry ordered that all French
        prisoners be put to the sword - an order his knights were reluctant to follow as, if kept alive, these
        prisoners could bring a healthy ransom:

        "When the King of England perceived them coming thus he caused it to be published that every one that had a
        prisoner should immediately kill him, which those who had any were unwilling to do, for they expected to get
        great ransoms for them. But when the King was informed of this he appointed a gentleman with two hundred
        archers whom he commanded to go through the host and kill all the prisoners, whoever they might be. This
        esquire, without delay or objection, fulfilled the command of his sovereign lord, which was a most pitiable
        thing, for in cold blood all the nobility of France was beheaded and inhumanly cut to pieces, and all through
        this accursed company, a sorry set compared with the noble captive chivalry, who when they saw that the
        English were ready to receive them, all immediately turned and fled, each to save his own life. Many of the
        cavalry escaped; but of those on foot there were many among the dead."

        References:
        Wavrin, Jehan de, Chronicles, 1399-1422, trans. Sir W. Hardy and E. Hardy (1887); Keegan, John, The
        Illustrated Face of Battle: a study of Agincourt, Waterloo and the Somme (1989).

        How To Cite This Article:
        "The Battle of Agincourt, 1415" EyeWitness to History, www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (2006).


      • kburgess1@comcast.net
        while a good source it is open to other interpretations. point #1 http://users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/florilegium/popdth04.html the archers were led by Sir
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 26, 2010
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          while a good source it is open to other interpretations.

           
          point #1
          http://users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/florilegium/popdth04.html
          the archers were led by Sir Thomas Erpingham the army was led by Henry

          point #2 an point #4 , here you need to ask --- why did the french bunch up ? if archers were of no consequence why did the french attack them?
           the natural tenancy for any grope movement is the path of least resistance.
          with the archers on both flanks " to place his archers in front in two wings" that path would be towards the middle. this added with, "but the French began to hold down their heads, especially those who had no bucklers, for the impetuosity of the English arrows, which fell so heavily that no one durst uncover or look up."
          no one was watching where they were going until a french commander ( my guess here ) said....holy poop we really need to clear our flanks....

          point #3..... silly french

          point #5   there is no mention of the archers dropping their bows " [The French knights] struck into these English archers, who had their stakes fixed in front of them...their horses stumbled among the stakes, and they were speedily slain by the archers, which was a great pity."

          on point #6;  while there is no mention of bows being used there ( last paragraph ), it is the archers who stopped the french charge and ensured the rout
          " [The French] men-at-arms without number began to fall; and their horses feeling the arrows coming upon them
          took to flight before the enemy, and following their example many of the French turned and fled. Soon
          afterwards the English archers, seeing the vanguard thus shaken, issued from behind their stockade, threw away
          their bows and quivers,"


          bran

          one thing that i have always wondered,  why did the french attack then ?


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: bluecat@...
          To: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com, SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, MidrealmCombatArchery@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 10:18:15 AM
          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Agincourt from a witness.

           

          In the history business we live for primary sources- witness accounts of an event from someone who was there.
          This is a primary source account.

          Please note the following points:
          1) The archers ( and the whole army ) are lead by a Knight appointed by Henry.
          2) The archers are behind a stake defense in two wings, and are directly attacked by horse.
          3) The ground is very soft- and hard to ride or walk in. The French and their horses are heavily armored.
          4) The French end up compressed together by the English to the point where they can't swing weapons.
          5) The archers carry all kinds of back up weapons and drop their bows to use them, coming out from behind
          their defense to do so. King Henry joins them in their advance.
          6) When Henry is informed that the French are attacking his rear, he orders all captured French Knights
          killed. His own Knights are reluctant to do this as they are worth ransom money, and Henry orders a commander
          with 200 archers to do the job. They then kill the captured French with conventional weapons- ( there is no
          mention of bows and arrows being used) which panics the remaining French who flee for their lives.

          Jehan de Wavrin was the son of a Flemish knight. His father and older brother fought with the French at the
          battle. Both were killed. The young de Wavrin observed the battle from the French lines and we join his
          account as the two armies prepare for combat:

          "When the battalions of the French were thus formed, it was grand to see them; and as far as one could judge
          by the eye, they were in number fully six times as many as the English. And when this was done the French sat
          down by companies around their banners, waiting the approach of the English, and making their peace with one
          another; and then were laid aside many old aversions conceived long ago; some kissed and embraced each other,
          which it was affecting to witness; so that all quarrels and discords which they had had in time past were
          changed to great and perfect love. And there were some who breakfasted on what they had. And these Frenchmen
          remained thus till nine or ten o'clock in the morning, feeling quite assured that, considering their great
          force, the English could not escape them; however, there were at least some of the wisest who greatly feared a
          fight with them in open battle.

          ...The French had arranged their battalions between two small thickets, one lying close to Agincourt, and the
          other to Tramecourt. The place was narrow, and very advantageous for the English, and, on the contrary, very
          ruinous for the French, for the said French had been all night on horseback, and it rained, and the pages,
          grooms, and others, in leading about the horses, had broken up the ground, which was so soft that the horses
          could with difficulty step out of the soil. And also the said French were so loaded with armour that they
          could not support themselves or move forward. In the first place they were armed with long coats of steel,
          reaching to the knees or lower, and very heavy, over the leg harness, and besides plate armour also most of
          them had hooded helmets; wherefore this weight of armour, with the softness of the wet ground, as has been
          said, kept them as if immovable, so that they could raise their dubs only with great difficulty, and with all
          these mischiefs there was this, that most of them were troubled with hunger and want of sleep.

          ...Now let us return to the English. After the parley between the two armies was finished and the delegates
          had returned, each to their own people, the King of England, who had appointed a knight called Sir Thomas
          Erpingham to place his archers in front in two wings, trusted entirely to him, and Sir Thomas, to do his part,
          exhorted every one to do well in the name of the King, begging them to fight vigorously against the French in
          order to secure and save their own lives. And thus the knight, who rode with two others only in front of the
          battalion, seeing that the hour was come, for all things were well arranged, threw up a baton which he held in
          his hand, saying 'Nestrocq' ['Now strike'] which was the signal for attack; then dismounted and joined the
          King, who was also on foot in the midst of his men, with his banner before him.

          Then the English, seeing this signal, began suddenly to march, uttering a very loud cry, which greatly
          surprised the French. And when the English saw that the French did not approach them, they marched dashingly
          towards them in very fine order, and again raised a loud cry as they stopped to take breath.

          Then the English archers, who, as I have said, were in the wings, saw that they were near enough, and began to
          send their arrows on the French with great vigour.

          Then the French seeing the English come towards them in this manner, placed themselves together in order,
          everyone under his banner, their helmets on their heads. The Constable, the Marshal, the admirals, and the
          other princes earnestly exhorted their men to fight the English well and bravely; and when it came to the
          approach the trumpets and clarions resounded everywhere; but the French began to hold down their heads,
          especially those who had no bucklers, for the impetuosity of the English arrows, which fell so heavily that no
          one durst uncover or look up.

          Thus they went forward a little, then made a little retreat, but before they could come to close quarters,
          many of the French were disabled and wounded by the arrows; and when they came quite up to the English, they
          were, as has been said, so closely pressed one against another that none of them could lift their arms to
          strike their enemies, except some that were in front...

          [The French knights] struck into these English archers, who had their stakes fixed in front of them... their.
          horses stumbled among the stakes, and they were speedily slain by the archers, which was a great pity. And
          most of the rest, through fear, gave way and fell back into their vanguard, to whom they were a great
          hindrance; and they opened their ranks in several places, and made them fall back and lose their footing in
          some land newly sown; for their horses had been so wounded by the arrows that the men could no longer manage them.

          [The French] men-at-arms without number began to fall; and their horses feeling the arrows coming upon them
          took to flight before the enemy, and following their example many of the French turned and fled. Soon
          afterwards the English archers, seeing the vanguard thus shaken, issued from behind their stockade, threw away
          their bows and quivers, then took their swords, hatchets, mallets, axes, falcon-beaks and other weapons, and,
          pushing into the places where they saw these breaches, struck down and killed these Frenchmen without mercy,
          and never ceased to kill till the said vanguard which had fought little or not at all was completely
          overwhelmed, and these went on striking right and left till they came upon the second battalion, which was
          behind the advance guard, and there the King personally threw himself into the fight with his men-at-arms.

          As the English continued to gain the upper hand, King Henry received news that the French were attacking at
          the rear of his army and that French reinforcements were approaching. King Henry ordered that all French
          prisoners be put to the sword - an order his knights were reluctant to follow as, if kept alive, these
          prisoners could bring a healthy ransom:

          "When the King of England perceived them coming thus he caused it to be published that every one that had a
          prisoner should immediately kill him, which those who had any were unwilling to do, for they expected to get
          great ransoms for them. But when the King was informed of this he appointed a gentleman with two hundred
          archers whom he commanded to go through the host and kill all the prisoners, whoever they might be. This
          esquire, without delay or objection, fulfilled the command of his sovereign lord, which was a most pitiable
          thing, for in cold blood all the nobility of France was beheaded and inhumanly cut to pieces, and all through
          this accursed company, a sorry set compared with the noble captive chivalry, who when they saw that the
          English were ready to receive them, all immediately turned and fled, each to save his own life. Many of the
          cavalry escaped; but of those on foot there were many among the dead."

          References:
          Wavrin, Jehan de, Chronicles, 1399-1422, trans. Sir W. Hardy and E. Hardy (1887); Keegan, John, The
          Illustrated Face of Battle: a study of Agincourt, Waterloo and the Somme (1989).

          How To Cite This Article:
          "The Battle of Agincourt, 1415" EyeWitness to History, www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (2006).

        • ren_junkie
          Didn t the French hire Genoese crossbowmen? And then totally ignore them, ride past them at the English because they wanted the nobility to win the battle? Saw
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 27, 2010
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            Didn't the French hire Genoese crossbowmen? And then totally ignore them, ride past them at the English because they wanted the nobility to win the battle?

            Saw that on the History Channel. Someone please confirm or deny the veracity of this, since you know how they can be...

            Christopher



            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, kburgess1@... wrote:
            >
            > while a good source it is open to other interpretations.
            >
            >
            > point #1
            > http://users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/florilegium/popdth04.html
            > the archers were led by Sir Thomas Erpingham the army was led by Henry
            >
            > point #2 an point #4 , here you need to ask --- why did the french bunch up ? if archers were of no consequence why did the french attack them?
            > the natural tenancy for any grope movement is the path of least resistance.
            > with the archers on both flanks " to place his archers in front in two wings" that path would be towards the middle. this added with, "but the French began to hold down their heads, especially those who had no bucklers, for the impetuosity of the English arrows, which fell so heavily that no one durst uncover or look up."
            > no one was watching where they were going until a french commander ( my guess here ) said....holy poop we really need to clear our flanks ....
            >
            > point #3..... silly french
            >
            > point #5 there is no mention of the archers dropping their bows " [The French knights] struck into these English archers, who had their stakes fixed in front of them...their horses stumbled among the stakes, and they were speedily slain by the archers, which was a great pity. "
            >
            > on point #6; while there is no mention of bows being used there ( last paragraph ), it is the archers who stopped the french charge and ensured the rout
            > " [The French] men-at-arms without number began to fall; and their horses feeling the arrows coming upon them
            > took to flight before the enemy, and following their example many of the French turned and fled. Soon
            > afterwards the English archers, seeing the vanguard thus shaken, issued from behind their stockade, threw away
            > their bows and quivers,"
            >
            >
            > bran
            >
          • kweancel@raex.com
            I can t access my books right now (windows being installed), but I believe that the crossbows in the French army at the time were Urban contingents. The
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 27, 2010
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              I can't access my books right now (windows being installed), but I believe that the crossbows in the French army at the time were Urban contingents. The earlier parts of the 100 years wars saw the use of Genoese crossbows.
                    Ancel


              > Didn't the French hire Genoese crossbowmen? And then totally ignore them,

              > ride past them at the English because they wanted the nobility
              to win the
              > battle?
              >
              > Saw that on the History Channel. Someone please confirm or deny the
              > veracity of this, since you know how they can be...
              >
              > Christopher

              >
              >
              >
              > --- In
              SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, kburgess1@... wrote:
              >>
              >> while a good source it is open to other interpretations.
              >>
              >>
              >> point #1
              >> http://users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/florilegium/popdth04.html
              >> the archers were led by Sir Thomas Erpingham the army was led by Henry
              >>
              >> point #2 an point #4 , here you need to ask --- why did the french bunch
              >> up ? if archers were of no consequence why did the french attack them?
              >> the natural tenancy for any grope movement is the path of least
              >> resistance.
              >> with the archers on both flanks " to place his archers in front in two
              >> wings" that path would be towards the middle. this added with, "but the
              >> French began to hold down their heads, especially those who had no
              >> bucklers, for the impetuosity of the English arrows, which fell so
              >> heavily that no one durst uncover or look up."
              >> no one was watching where they were going until a french commander ( my
              >> guess here ) said....holy poop we really need to clear our flanks ....
              >>
              >> point #3..... silly french
              >>
              >> point #5 there is no mention of the archers dropping their bows " [The
              >> French knights] struck into these English archers, who had their stakes
              >> fixed in front of them...their horses stumbled among the stakes, and
              >> they were speedily slain by the archers, which was a great pity. "
              >>
              >> on point #6; while there is no mention of bows being used there ( last
              >> paragraph ), it is the archers who stopped the french charge and ensured
              >> the rout
              >> " [The French] men-at-arms without number began to fall; and their
              >> horses feeling the arrows coming upon them
              >> took to flight before the enemy, and following their example many of the
              >> French turned and fled. Soon
              >> afterwards the English archers, seeing the vanguard thus shaken, issued
              >> from behind their stockade, threw away
              >> their bows and quivers,"
              >>
              >>
              >> bran
              >>
              >
              >
              >
            • drosen105@aol.com
              I believe you re referring to the Battle of Crecy. Agincourt was something like 70 years later. Rupert ... From: ren_junkie To:
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 27, 2010
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                I believe you're referring to the Battle of Crecy.  Agincourt was something like 70 years later.
                Rupert




                -----Original Message-----
                From: ren_junkie <ren_junkie@...>
                To: SCA-Archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wed, Oct 27, 2010 2:31 pm
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Agincourt from a witness.

                 
                Didn't the French hire Genoese crossbowmen? And then totally ignore them, ride past them at the English because they wanted the nobility to win the battle?

                Saw that on the History Channel. Someone please confirm or deny the veracity of this, since you know how they can be...

                Christopher

                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, kburgess1@... wrote:
                >
                > while a good source it is open to other interpretations.
                >
                >
                > point #1
                > http://users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/florilegium/popdth04.html
                > the archers were led by Sir Thomas Erpingham the army was led by Henry
                >
                > point #2 an point #4 , here you need to ask --- why did the french bunch up ? if archers were of no consequence why did the french attack them?
                > the natural tenancy for any grope movement is the path of least resistance.
                > with the archers on both flanks " to place his archers in front in two wings" that path would be towards the middle. this added with, "but the French began to hold down their heads, especially those who had no bucklers, for the impetuosity of the English arrows, which fell so heavily that no one durst uncover or look up."
                > no one was watching where they were going until a french commander ( my guess here ) said....holy poop we really need to clear our flanks ....
                >
                > point #3..... silly french
                >
                > point #5 there is no mention of the archers dropping their bows " [The French knights] struck into these English archers, who had their stakes fixed in front of them...their horses stumbled among the stakes, and they were speedily slain by the archers, which was a great pity. "
                >
                > on point #6; while there is no mention of bows being used there ( last paragraph ), it is the archers who stopped the french charge and ensured the rout
                > " [The French] men-at-arms without number began to fall; and their horses feeling the arrows coming upon them
                > took to flight before the enemy, and following their example many of the French turned and fled. Soon
                > afterwards the English archers, seeing the vanguard thus shaken, issued from behind their stockade, threw away
                > their bows and quivers,"
                >
                >
                > bran
                >

              • ren_junkie
                Ah, got my French whoopin s mixed up. Thanks! Christopher
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 28, 2010
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                  Ah, got my French whoopin's mixed up.

                  Thanks!
                  Christopher

                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, drosen105@... wrote:
                  >
                  > I believe you're referring to the Battle of Crecy. Agincourt was something like 70 years later.
                  > Rupert
                  >
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