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Re: Quivers etc

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  • Robert L Brunnemer
    I am sorry I was not going to speak on this thread anymore, because it has turned into a heated argument instead of being a helpful debate, but I think that I
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 30, 1999
      I am sorry I was not going to speak on this thread anymore, because it
      has turned into a heated argument instead of being a helpful debate, but
      I think that I must reply as a 3rd party here.

      BlkKnightI@... wrote:
      >>> I and several others viewed the tapestry
      > and that its a back quiver is questionable-Hardly documentation.>>>

      Then Dean wrote in response:
      >>>Which in no way invalidates whatever other documentation was found
      by Mistress Kendra. Nor is Macsen's "statement" in any way "faulty,"
      his memory is merely incomplete.>>>

      I read the original post that stated that their was "proof" on the
      bayeau(sp?) tapestry of back quivers. If I remember (I may not be
      totally correct, but I don't think that my mind is failing me that much)
      that someone wrote that in a article, I don't think that it was Macsen,
      without mentioning Mistress Kendra's documentation. The lady in question
      (sorry I forget her name) then stated that the only thing that she could
      find on the Bayeau(sp?) tapestry was a belt quiver around the shoulders.
      (Which I would think would be a back quiver because it is on the back by
      the way.) Then some people (if not many) took this as a personal attack,
      because of some other things that she wrote in jest about Errol Fllynn
      movies (which I didn't get) and about horses standing on their heads. (I
      too thought that to be VERY funny. :-))

      Really I think that all of this was just a GIGANTIC mis-understanding,
      and could have been avoided, but really it seems that people had a bad
      week, and thus all of a sudden here we are on One List. Remember thought
      that a single straw can not break the camel's back. So as Macsen stated
      "The straw that broke the camel's back" means that there had to have been
      MANY other moments that Macsen was unhappy with all of the things that
      had been going on.

      <<<Saying that anyone would start from a desire to believe in something
      and then set out to find documentation to prove it is perhaps the
      worst insult that can be offered anyone who does research. It would
      be just as easy -- and uncalled-for -- to claim that your wife set
      out to prove a belief that back quivers did not exist in period.>>>

      If this is really an attack than I am really messed up here. How are
      things proved by documentation. I always thought that someone would want
      to find something out, (whether something did or didn't happen, or was
      used) look in a lot of books, and then prove or disprove something. From
      the way I read this it sounds like to you as a researcher would have to
      stumble onto things blindly and then say "Hey that is interesting I will
      have to do it that way." Am I way off base or just reading this wrong.
      (By the way I am not being sarcastic, I am truly curious about this.)

      I am not trying to upset or insult anyone here, I am just stating my
      opinion as a person who really has nothing to do with the conversation,
      and is therefore an unconcerned third party.

      Also a bit of advice from a 17 year old that you could take or tell me to
      go to hell with. I have always thought that when people start to argue
      with no real purpose (that is not debating, but name calling arguing) it
      is best to step back a minute think about it from the other point of
      view, and then try to resolve the issue. Again read the upset insult
      part above.

      Have a nice day!!!
      Robert
      Hugewheels@...
      Tha mi a'fluich mi kilt!!!

      ___________________________________________________________________
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    • lester
      As a new member of this list, enough is enough. If Macen is not going to apologize for his rudeness, so be it. but lets get on with something constructive. I
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 30, 1999
        As a new member of this list, enough is enough. If Macen is not going to
        apologize for his rudeness, so be it. but lets get on with something
        constructive.

        I wish to learn the correct way to make arrows for war, such as where do I
        get the tips - can they be made - are wooden arrows allowed, if not what
        type are allowed. Where on the web (SCA) can I find this information

        Thanks

        Ifer de Leycester

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Deann E. Allen <dallen@...>
        To: <SCA-Archery@onelist.com>
        Sent: Saturday, July 31, 1999 12:08 AM
        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Quivers etc


        > From: "Deann E. Allen" <dallen@...>
        >
        > Elfwine wrote:
        > [snip]
        > > Tracy's statements, right or wrong, is NOT the issue here. It's the
        > > rude, vulgar language used toward a Lady, and Macsen's tantrum, which
        > > has landed us here without so much as a "peep" from the peers on this
        > > list-service. Whatever happened to morality? Let those who are here
        > > have the decency to stand up and be counted among those who will not
        > > tolerate this behavior.
        > >
        > > Now there may have been "private" e-mailing with Macsen reguarding
        > > this matter to which I am unaware. However, Tracy has a RIGHT to ask
        > > for, and recieve, a public apology. And that has not been forthcoming.
        > > In fact, Macsen was rather rude about that too.
        >
        > I must disagree, Elfwine. Tracy's comments ARE part of the issue.
        > She made accusations of fabricating documentation to justify
        > preconceived beliefs, and of emulating Errol Flynn movies instead of
        > doing proper research. These remarks were uncalled-for and rude in
        > themselves. That she made these remarks while -- knowingly or not --
        > virtually standing in Macsen's house makes it even more inexcusable.
        >
        > When two people are publicly rude to each other, you cannot in justice
        > call for only one to publicly tender an apology. Gentle is as gentle
        > does, Lord and Lady are titles of *courtesy,* and the strictures of
        > courtesy apply equally to all.
        >
        > D.
        >
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      • Deann E. Allen
        ... [snip] ... Someone once said that the best way to lie is to tell only part of the truth. Starting from a preconceived belief and setting out to prove it
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 30, 1999
          Robert L Brunnemer wrote:
          >
          > From: Robert L Brunnemer <hugewheels@...>
          [snip]
          > <<<Saying that anyone would start from a desire to believe in
          > something and then set out to find documentation to prove it is
          > perhaps the worst insult that can be offered anyone who does
          > research. It would be just as easy -- and uncalled-for -- to
          > claim that your wife set out to prove a belief that back quivers
          > did not exist in period.>>>
          >
          > If this is really an attack than I am really messed up here. How
          > are things proved by documentation. I always thought that someone
          > would want to find something out, (whether something did or didn't
          > happen, or was used) look in a lot of books, and then prove or
          > disprove something. From the way I read this it sounds like to
          > you as a researcher would have to stumble onto things blindly and
          > then say "Hey that is interesting I will have to do it that way."
          > Am I way off base or just reading this wrong. (By the way I am not
          > being sarcastic, I am truly curious about this.)
          >
          > I am not trying to upset or insult anyone here, I am just stating
          > my opinion as a person who really has nothing to do with the
          > conversation, and is therefore an unconcerned third party.

          Someone once said that the best way to lie is to tell only part of
          the truth. Starting from a preconceived belief and setting out to
          prove it entails ignoring any evidence you find that contradicts
          the point you are trying to prove. In effect, if you did conduct
          research in this manner, your results would be lies, because they
          would not tell all the truth about what you found. That is why such
          an accusation is an insult to anyone who conducts research.

          As to whether Tracy's comments were meant in jest and were taken as
          serious.... Well, that's why someone invented emoticons. When you
          say something that is not to be taken seriously, adding a smile :)
          or a wink ;) will make that clear to the reader. When such are
          absent, it is usual to take the comment as being serious. Some
          people eschew emoticons as being uncouth. I have found they mostly
          enhance understanding, if used in moderation.

          D.
          --
          100% pure, Grade A, American Mutt caffeine!
          ------------------------------------------
        • BlkKnightI@xxx.xxx
          ... She made no accusations at all. Please re read the original post. ... She said that this all is OK with her. ... The list is not Macsens house . Ifso he
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 31, 1999
            In a message dated 7/31/99 1:01:24 AM, dallen@... writes:

            >I must disagree, Elfwine. Tracy's comments ARE part of the issue.
            >She made accusations of fabricating documentation to justify
            >preconceived beliefs,

            She made no accusations at all. Please re read the original post.

            >and of emulating Errol Flynn movies instead of
            >doing proper research.

            She said that this all is OK with her.

            >These remarks were uncalled-for and rude in
            >themselves. That she made these remarks while -- knowingly or not --
            >virtually standing in Macsen's house makes it even more inexcusable.

            The list is not Macsens "house". Ifso he is certainly a rude host.
            You have no idea what she meant and do you are presumptious to state anything
            of the sort.
            I was there when she wrote it. You are wrong in your presumptions of her
            intent.
            Richard
          • Robert L Brunnemer
            Hallo!!! Dean wrote:
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 31, 1999
              Hallo!!!

              Dean wrote:
              <<< Starting from a preconceived belief and setting out to
              prove it entails ignoring any evidence you find that contradicts
              the point you are trying to prove. In effect, if you did conduct
              research in this manner, your results would be lies, because they
              would not tell all the truth about what you found.>>>

              I am sorry, but this too does not sit well with me. There is something
              about it that I find "fishy." It seems to me that the driving factor to
              want to document something would be because someone would want to know if
              it actually happened. I think that if someone was trying to gain a
              monetary value from the said documentation then they would lie. But I
              think that if the documentation was just on a knowledge gaining "journey"
              than the documentation would be truthful, and all avenues would be
              followed. So maybe you should look more into the motives of why someone
              decided to prove so and so more than what they thought before hand? I
              know that is confusing, but it is 1 am, and I am not completely thinking
              straight. I think that is clear enough, but I am writing it, if you
              don't understand please tell me and in the morning I will re-word it or
              whatever. Again there is no offense intended by any of this, please
              don't take it personally. And...

              Have a nice day!!!
              Robert
              Hugewheels@...
              Tha mi a'fluich mi kilt!!!

              ___________________________________________________________________
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            • Ramos & Aaminah
              Please remove me from the your list
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 31, 1999
                Please remove me from the your list
              • M&L Romanowski
                Another reference is the History Museum in Chicago. They have a back quiver on display that I remember as being period. I recall being bummed that they had
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 31, 1999
                  Another reference is the History Museum in Chicago. They have a back quiver
                  on display that I remember as being period. I recall being bummed that they
                  had the arrows in the quiver as opposed to having them displayed. (being
                  that I am a fletcher) my interest was more in the arrows, but I am really
                  sure that it was a back quiver and it was period. Had some really nifty
                  crossbows on display too.

                  A reference you can actually see!

                  Marcus Caruana.

                  "Deann E. Allen" wrote:

                  > From: "Deann E. Allen" <dallen@...>
                  >
                  > BLOODSNG@... wrote:
                  > >
                  > > From: BLOODSNG@...
                  > >
                  > > oK HERE IT GOES , In the book A glossery of the construction
                  > > decoration and use of arms and aror in all countries and in all
                  > > times, ( no kiding that is the tidel). it has quite a few quivers
                  > > in it hip, hourse, chariot, and back....
                  > [snip]
                  >
                  > Thank you. Filed for reference. :)
                  >
                  > D.
                  > --
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                • Karl Sandhoff
                  Monetary gain or not Dean has a valid point here. If someone starts out with a preconcieved position and wishes to prove the correctness of that position
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 31, 1999
                    Monetary gain or not Dean has a valid point here. If someone starts out
                    with a preconcieved position and wishes to prove the "correctness" of
                    that position and searches out references to prove it he is not
                    documenting the fact. The matter still stands that other documentation
                    which refutes that presented will often be ignored, conciously or
                    unconciously. This means that a blatently false position is being
                    present as true. If, on the other hand, a hypothesis is being tested,
                    all evidence positive or negative is presented thus proving the fact.
                    The difference here is that in the first case a position was taken and
                    then proved, in the second a question asked and then a position taken.
                    The second is the path of a true scholar and researcher. I've had to
                    learn this one the hard way in my training as an archaeologist. Thank
                    you to all on this list for the opportunity to have some very fine
                    academic debates.
                    Carolus von Eulenhorst

                    On Sat, 31 Jul 1999 01:14:12 -0700 Robert L Brunnemer
                    <hugewheels@...> writes:
                    >From: Robert L Brunnemer <hugewheels@...>
                    >
                    >Hallo!!!
                    >
                    >Dean wrote:
                    ><<< Starting from a preconceived belief and setting out to
                    >prove it entails ignoring any evidence you find that contradicts
                    >the point you are trying to prove. In effect, if you did conduct
                    >research in this manner, your results would be lies, because they
                    >would not tell all the truth about what you found.>>> I am sorry, but
                    >this too does not sit well with me. There is something about it that
                    >I find "fishy." It seems to me that the driving factor to want to
                    >document something would be because someone would want to know if it
                    >actually happened. I think that if someone was trying to gain a
                    >monetary value from the said documentation then they would lie. But I
                    >think that if the documentation was just on a knowledge gaining
                    >"journey" than the documentation would be truthful, and all avenues
                    >would be followed. So maybe you should look more into the motives of
                    >why someone decided to prove so and so more than what they thought
                    >before hand? I know that is confusing, but it is 1 am, and I am not
                    >completely thinking straight. I think that is clear enough, but I am
                    >writing it, if you don't understand please tell me and in the morning
                    >I will re-word it or
                    >whatever. Again there is no offense intended by any of this, please
                    >don't take it personally. And...
                    >
                    >Have a nice day!!!
                    >Robert
                    >Hugewheels@... Tha mi a'fluich mi kilt!!!
                    >___________________________________________________________________
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                  • Ian Gourdon
                    Marcus, Oooh! I m all a-quiver . I may have shot my bolt . Etc. Any chance of getting the specifics sometime? It would be very nice to know exactly what
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 31, 1999
                      Marcus,
                      Oooh! I'm 'all a-quiver'. I may have 'shot my bolt'. Etc.
                      Any chance of getting the specifics sometime? It would be very nice to
                      know exactly what they've got, eh? And the arrows; sure you don't need
                      to beg a look at the artifact? Since you're part of 'the Greenwood
                      Group, a Medieval research organization'...
                      Ian Gourdon

                      M&L Romanowski wrote:
                      >
                      > From: M&L Romanowski <leanner@...>
                      >
                      > Another reference is the History Museum in Chicago. They have a back quiver
                      > on display that I remember as being period. I recall being bummed that they
                      > had the arrows in the quiver as opposed to having them displayed. (being
                      > that I am a fletcher) my interest was more in the arrows, but I am really
                      > sure that it was a back quiver and it was period. Had some really nifty
                      > crossbows on display too.
                      >
                      > A reference you can actually see!
                      >
                      > Marcus Caruana.
                      >
                      > "Deann E. Allen" wrote:
                      >
                      > > From: "Deann E. Allen" <dallen@...>
                      > >
                      > > BLOODSNG@... wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > From: BLOODSNG@...
                      > > >
                      > > > oK HERE IT GOES , In the book A glossery of the construction
                      > > > decoration and use of arms and aror in all countries and in all
                      > > > times, ( no kiding that is the tidel). it has quite a few quivers
                      > > > in it hip, hourse, chariot, and back....
                      > > [snip]
                      > >
                      > > Thank you. Filed for reference. :)
                      > >
                      > > D.
                      > > --
                      > > 100% pure, Grade A, American Mutt caffeine!
                      > > ------------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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                      > > Congratulations DALMATIANRESCUE. Our latest ONElist of the week.
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                    • BlkKnightI@xxx.xxx
                      ... Thanks. I am wondering if you could be more specfic as to which museum you ve seen this in. I would like to persue your find but there are numerous history
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 31, 1999
                        In a message dated 7/31/99 4:46:45 PM, leanner@... writes:

                        >
                        >Another reference is the History Museum in Chicago. They have a back quiver
                        >on display that I remember as being period. I recall being bummed that they
                        >had the arrows in the quiver as opposed to having them displayed. (being
                        >that I am a fletcher) my interest was more in the arrows, but I am really
                        >sure that it was a back quiver and it was period. Had some really nifty
                        >crossbows on display too.

                        >A reference you can actually see!>

                        Thanks. I am wondering if you could be more specfic as to which museum you've
                        seen this in. I would like to persue your find but there are numerous history
                        museums in Chicago.
                        Do you remember what time period this artifact was from and where?

                        Richard
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