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Re: [SCA-Archery] Sitka Spruce Shafts

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  • Cleve Johnson
    My understanding is that it is okay to have equal or heavier spined arrows than your bow, but not a lighter spined arrow, or you risk the archer s paradox.
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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      My understanding is that it is okay to have equal or heavier spined arrows than your bow, but not a lighter spined arrow, or you risk the archer's paradox.

      Eadric
       
      Cleve Johnson
      lighttrek@...
      www.books.lighttrek.com
       
      "Fortitudine vincimus"
      (By endurance we conquer)





      ________________________________
      From: "mccobalt@..." <mccobalt@...>
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 9:00:14 AM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Sitka Spruce Shafts

       


      I went from Port Oxford Cedar to Sitka Spruce for my 34# Black Widow bow last year.  However, I shoot 50-55# shafts.  But I also have a 31" draw.

      John

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ko" <moondragn@gmail. com>
      To: SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 8:56:25 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Sitka Spruce Shafts

       

      I just brought 2 dozen Sitka Spruce shafts from 3 rivers archery. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with them? I noticed they were a lot lighter than cedar of the same diameter(5/16" ). I have these brass points that are only 50g weight. Will they be too light? The shafts were rated at 30-35lb, how will these light brass points affect the spine?

      Will I be able to use these arrows on my 33lb black widow?

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Steven Chang
      Hmmm, I agree with the high nocking point. I do the same thing on my black widow. However I currently shoot arrows spined at 30-35 lbs and they were flying
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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        Hmmm, I agree with the high nocking point. I do the same thing on my black
        widow. However I currently shoot arrows spined at 30-35 lbs and they were
        flying fine. I had switched from 5/16" to 11/32" diameter to use the brass
        points from 3-rivers. However I noticed everything started to drop by as
        much as 2 inches on my shots, and I didn't like the fact I had to aim way
        over the 40 yard target to get my arrow to drop in. Thats why I decided to
        go back to 5/16" and find lighter shafts.

        So now I have the sitka spruce which are between 160-175 grains in weight
        and 50 grain brass points, if what you guys say is right, the spine should
        be fine for the bow. With the lighter weight I can aim closer to the center
        on the 40 yard target.


        On 8/17/09, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Black Widows have always had a reputation for being extremely fast
        > bows. This wouldn't surprise me at all.
        > Carolus
        >
        > Nest verch Tangwistel wrote:
        > > The black widow company tells you to start at 1.5 times the weight of the
        > bow when making arrows then adjust for extra length. So they appear to be
        > shooting unusually heavy shafted arrows. I shoot 52 pound shafts off my 37
        > pound black widow, but I only have a 27 inch draw. I remember not really
        > believing them until I shot a whole series of different shaft weights off my
        > bow. It also has an unusually high nocking point on the string. I have had
        > people ask my how I can shoot downwards and get it in the target.
        > >
        > > Nest
        > >
        > > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Ko <moondragn@... <moondragn%40gmail.com>>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > From: Ko <moondragn@... <moondragn%40gmail.com>>
        > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Sitka Spruce Shafts
        > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 9:20 AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, THL Caedmon Wilson
        > <caedmon.wilson@ ...> wrote:
        > >
        > >> For a center-shot recurve, spining the arrow shaft is less important,
        > >> at least in my personal experience in making arrows for my recurve
        > >> (Martin X-100) when compared to my longbow.
        > >>
        > >> -Caedmon
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > > hmmm from what I have read, shooting centershot just means you can shoot
        > a stiffer arrow out of the bow. It still does affect the arrow flight path.
        > >
        > > What I'm worried about is that the 50g points may make the shaft
        > underspined, which would throw the arrow slightly to the right.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > __________________________________________________
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • THL Caedmon Wilson
        Yeah, shooting at 40 yards is troublesome with arrows that drop a lot. With my longbow, I was using my pinky knuckle get the arrow on the target. -Caedmon
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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          Yeah, shooting at 40 yards is troublesome with arrows that drop a lot.
          With my longbow, I was using my pinky knuckle get the arrow on the
          target.

          -Caedmon
        • Steven Chang
          I shoot instinctively between 20-30 yards. In order for me to shoot at the 40 consistantly I had to switch to a form of gap shooting method. That is really
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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            I shoot instinctively between 20-30 yards. In order for me to shoot at the
            40 consistantly I had to switch to a form of gap shooting method. That is
            really throwing me off at competitions. If I can make my arrows perform
            better and aim closer to straight at the target, then I am sure I can do
            better.

            The alternative is to switch to a heavier poundage bow. I am already getting
            a sore shoulder from the 33 lb one.

            I already had moved from 25 lbs to 33 lbs before and had to adjust, my 20
            yard scores dropped from perfect 30s to around 25 after the switch. Now with
            lack of practice I'm not even breaking 20 on timed rounds. So moving to a
            higher poundage bow is just going to make me even worse. I want to stay at
            33lbs if I can.



            On 8/17/09, THL Caedmon Wilson <caedmon.wilson@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Yeah, shooting at 40 yards is troublesome with arrows that drop a lot.
            > With my longbow, I was using my pinky knuckle get the arrow on the
            > target.
            >
            > -Caedmon
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          • THL Caedmon Wilson
            If you are in an experimental mood, try out the 1/4 shafts. If you can find enough shafts of sufficient spine, you would really be knocking off a lot of
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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              If you are in an experimental mood, try out the 1/4" shafts. If you
              can find enough shafts of sufficient spine, you would really be
              knocking off a lot of weight from the arrows.

              -Caedmon
            • Steven Chang
              Well part of the reason for this experiment was because I got these 50 grain brass points at pennsic. They were quite expensive too. They only fit on 5/16
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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                Well part of the reason for this experiment was because I got these 50 grain
                brass points at pennsic. They were quite expensive too. They only fit on
                5/16" taper so anything smaller is going to be a problem.

                I got this idea to use Sitka Spruce when I read that the shafts were lighter
                but stronger than Cedar. That really is a win win situation there.

                On 8/17/09, THL Caedmon Wilson <caedmon.wilson@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > If you are in an experimental mood, try out the 1/4" shafts. If you
                > can find enough shafts of sufficient spine, you would really be
                > knocking off a lot of weight from the arrows.
                >
                > -Caedmon
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Cleve Johnson
                If you want to shoot long distance, try a 190 grain long Bodkin point.  For fun, I wanted to see how far I could shoot.  I was able to send my Bodkin
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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                  If you want to shoot long distance, try a 190 grain long Bodkin point.  For fun, I wanted to see how far I could shoot.  I was able to send my Bodkin point arrows between 115 to 120 yards with a 32# longbow.  I don't recommend shooting the Bodkin points inside because if you miss the target, the Bodkins will go right through the safety net and hit whatever is behind.

                  Eadric
                   
                  Cleve Johnson
                  lighttrek@...
                  www.books.lighttrek.com
                   
                  "Fortitudine vincimus"
                  (By endurance we conquer)





                  ________________________________
                  From: Steven Chang <moondragn@...>
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 11:46:28 AM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Sitka Spruce Shafts

                   
                  Well part of the reason for this experiment was because I got these 50 grain
                  brass points at pennsic. They were quite expensive too. They only fit on
                  5/16" taper so anything smaller is going to be a problem.

                  I got this idea to use Sitka Spruce when I read that the shafts were lighter
                  but stronger than Cedar. That really is a win win situation there.

                  On 8/17/09, THL Caedmon Wilson <caedmon.wilson@ gmail.com> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > If you are in an experimental mood, try out the 1/4" shafts. If you
                  > can find enough shafts of sufficient spine, you would really be
                  > knocking off a lot of weight from the arrows.
                  >
                  > -Caedmon
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jameswolfden
                  If you go to supplier of the sitka spruce shafts, you have a few more option for reducing the weight. You can get a tapered shaft that goes from 5/16 and then
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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                    If you go to supplier of the sitka spruce shafts, you have a few more option for reducing the weight.

                    You can get a tapered shaft that goes from 5/16 and then tapers to 9/32 towards the nock end. Or just go for a parallel 9/32". And, yes, they sell nocks and points for 9/32".

                    The lighter point will increase your effective spine not decrease it. Less mass to overcome so less flex.

                    Which from the description of the Black Widow and spining requirements, seems to be what you want. Whether it is the exact right spine...

                    James
                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Steven Chang <moondragn@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Well part of the reason for this experiment was because I got these 50 grain
                    > brass points at pennsic. They were quite expensive too. They only fit on
                    > 5/16" taper so anything smaller is going to be a problem.
                    >
                    > I got this idea to use Sitka Spruce when I read that the shafts were lighter
                    > but stronger than Cedar. That really is a win win situation there.
                    >
                    > On 8/17/09, THL Caedmon Wilson <caedmon.wilson@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > If you are in an experimental mood, try out the 1/4" shafts. If you
                    > > can find enough shafts of sufficient spine, you would really be
                    > > knocking off a lot of weight from the arrows.
                    > >
                    > > -Caedmon
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • jameswolfden
                    Archer s Paradox happens no matter what. The spining of the bow is how you deal with it. Spining really depends on the how close or how far away the bow is
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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                      Archer's Paradox happens no matter what. The spining of the bow is how you deal with it.

                      Spining really depends on the how close or how far away the bow is from being centreshot. The closer to centreshot a bow is, the more tolerant of spining the bow. Typically, recurve manufacturers recommend 5 to 10 pounds heavier.

                      A period longbow without a shelf will often require a spine 5 to 10 pounds lighter.

                      And, of course, there is a bow out there where the spine exactly matches the bow weight.

                      Within reason, you can shoot an arrow that is either overspined or underspined, and it will hit either to left or right of where it is supposed to.

                      There is a danger in shooting a unreasonably underspined arrow out of your bow. If you are shooting an 85 pound recurve, you shouldn't be shooting an arrow spined at 30 pounds because it can just snap on release driving the broken shaft into your forearm. However, most of the bows that I see on the line are 25-35 pounds and it is pretty hard to find a dangerously underspined arrow at that poundage. (Damaged arrows are another story.)

                      James



                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Cleve Johnson <lighttrek@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > My understanding is that it is okay to have equal or heavier spined arrows than your bow, but not a lighter spined arrow, or you risk the archer's paradox.
                      >
                      > Eadric
                      >  
                      > Cleve Johnson
                      > lighttrek@...
                      > www.books.lighttrek.com
                      >  
                      > "Fortitudine vincimus"
                      > (By endurance we conquer)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: "mccobalt@..." <mccobalt@...>
                      > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 9:00:14 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Sitka Spruce Shafts
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > I went from Port Oxford Cedar to Sitka Spruce for my 34# Black Widow bow last year.  However, I shoot 50-55# shafts.  But I also have a 31" draw.
                      >
                      > John
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Ko" <moondragn@gmail. com>
                      > To: SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 8:56:25 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                      > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Sitka Spruce Shafts
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > I just brought 2 dozen Sitka Spruce shafts from 3 rivers archery. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with them? I noticed they were a lot lighter than cedar of the same diameter(5/16" ). I have these brass points that are only 50g weight. Will they be too light? The shafts were rated at 30-35lb, how will these light brass points affect the spine?
                      >
                      > Will I be able to use these arrows on my 33lb black widow?
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Steven Chang
                      At 100 yards my current arrows are fine. After a certain height I go with a pure gap shooting technique. As a result, I can get my arrow inside the castle
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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                        At 100 yards my current arrows are fine. After a certain height I go with a
                        pure gap shooting technique. As a result, I can get my arrow inside the
                        castle walls at pennsic even when I'm shooting bad, and when I am shooting
                        good, 4 out of 6 hit the guy.

                        I'm seriously wondering if I should not just go with the gap shooting
                        technique even at 20 yards. It would mean lining up the point below the
                        bullseye, but it would give me a fixed spot to aim. The vulnerability of
                        course is that it would make me horrible at unknown ranges. My range
                        estimation is usually pretty bad. It is why I have problems hitting anything
                        between 50-90 yards.


                        On 8/17/09, Cleve Johnson <lighttrek@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If you want to shoot long distance, try a 190 grain long Bodkin point. For
                        > fun, I wanted to see how far I could shoot. I was able to send my Bodkin
                        > point arrows between 115 to 120 yards with a 32# longbow. I don't recommend
                        > shooting the Bodkin points inside because if you miss the target, the
                        > Bodkins will go right through the safety net and hit whatever is behind.
                        >
                        > Eadric[image: Yahoo! Groups]<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjOWo0Y20yBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTUzMQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3Njc1MDMEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzEyNTA1MjYyMzI->
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                      • Terrance Timmons
                        All this talk about rule of thumb type info reminds me of all ive forgotten over the years of not shooting. does anyone have a good recommendation for a
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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                          All this talk about "rule of thumb" type info reminds me of all ive forgotten over the years of not shooting. does anyone have a good recommendation for a book to refresh my memory on a lot of this, and maybe for teaching others?

                          Terrance
                          Atenveldt
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Steven Chang
                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 11:19 AM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Sitka Spruce Shafts


                          At 100 yards my current arrows are fine. After a certain height I go with a
                          pure gap shooting technique. As a result, I can get my arrow inside the
                          castle walls at pennsic even when I'm shooting bad, and when I am shooting
                          good, 4 out of 6 hit the guy.

                          I'm seriously wondering if I should not just go with the gap shooting
                          technique even at 20 yards. It would mean lining up the point below the
                          bullseye, but it would give me a fixed spot to aim. The vulnerability of
                          course is that it would make me horrible at unknown ranges. My range
                          estimation is usually pretty bad. It is why I have problems hitting anything
                          between 50-90 yards.

                          On 8/17/09, Cleve Johnson <lighttrek@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > If you want to shoot long distance, try a 190 grain long Bodkin point. For
                          > fun, I wanted to see how far I could shoot. I was able to send my Bodkin
                          > point arrows between 115 to 120 yards with a 32# longbow. I don't recommend
                          > shooting the Bodkin points inside because if you miss the target, the
                          > Bodkins will go right through the safety net and hit whatever is behind.
                          >
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                        • Nest verch Tangwistel
                          My terminology might be somewhat different that yours, but I go with point of aim aiming at distances up to 40 yards, then switch to gap aiming. The first
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            My terminology might be somewhat different that yours, but I go with "point of aim" aiming at distances up to 40 yards, then switch to "gap" aiming. The first is using the tip of the arrow on a specific point at full draw to aim. The second is using the bow as an aiming aid (or my elbow above 100 yards). My aiming points at 20 and 30 are quite similar; on the ground to the right of the target. Then at 40 yards it moves up to target height, but still to the right. At around 60 yards the target dissappears behind my hand. I can still see it though as long as I keep both eyes open. Some of the especially close targets that we seem to love in the SCA, I shoot instinctively. Anyway the point is that I have always used different styles of aiming counting on the distance of the target.  It seems to work fairly well for me.
                             
                            I think my biggest problem with shooting is laziness. Sometimes I don't get all the way back to my anchor point, and sometimes my bow shoulder likes to creep back. Both make it a bit easier to shoot, but throw the arrows low.
                             
                            Nest
                            --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Steven Chang <moondragn@...> wrote:


                            From: Steven Chang <moondragn@...>
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Sitka Spruce Shafts
                            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 2:19 PM


                             



                            At 100 yards my current arrows are fine. After a certain height I go with a
                            pure gap shooting technique. As a result, I can get my arrow inside the
                            castle walls at pennsic even when I'm shooting bad, and when I am shooting
                            good, 4 out of 6 hit the guy.

                            I'm seriously wondering if I should not just go with the gap shooting
                            technique even at 20 yards. It would mean lining up the point below the
                            bullseye, but it would give me a fixed spot to aim. The vulnerability of
                            course is that it would make me horrible at unknown ranges. My range
                            estimation is usually pretty bad. It is why I have problems hitting anything
                            between 50-90 yards.

                            On 8/17/09, Cleve Johnson <lighttrek@sbcglobal .net> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > If you want to shoot long distance, try a 190 grain long Bodkin point. For
                            > fun, I wanted to see how far I could shoot. I was able to send my Bodkin
                            > point arrows between 115 to 120 yards with a 32# longbow. I don't recommend
                            > shooting the Bodkin points inside because if you miss the target, the
                            > Bodkins will go right through the safety net and hit whatever is behind.
                            >
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                          • Carolus
                            Nest, If you learn to pronate your bow elbow you will eliminate the shoulder creep. Takes a little work at first but really becomes more comfortable after you
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Nest,
                              If you learn to pronate your bow elbow you will eliminate the shoulder
                              creep. Takes a little work at first but really becomes more comfortable
                              after you are used to it.
                              Carolus

                              Nest verch Tangwistel wrote:
                              > My terminology might be somewhat different that yours, but I go with "point of aim" aiming at distances up to 40 yards, then switch to "gap" aiming. The first is using the tip of the arrow on a specific point at full draw to aim. The second is using the bow as an aiming aid (or my elbow above 100 yards). My aiming points at 20 and 30 are quite similar; on the ground to the right of the target. Then at 40 yards it moves up to target height, but still to the right. At around 60 yards the target dissappears behind my hand. I can still see it though as long as I keep both eyes open. Some of the especially close targets that we seem to love in the SCA, I shoot instinctively. Anyway the point is that I have always used different styles of aiming counting on the distance of the target. It seems to work fairly well for me.
                              >
                              > I think my biggest problem with shooting is laziness. Sometimes I don't get all the way back to my anchor point, and sometimes my bow shoulder likes to creep back. Both make it a bit easier to shoot, but throw the arrows low.
                              >
                              > Nest
                              > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Steven Chang <moondragn@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Steven Chang <moondragn@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Sitka Spruce Shafts
                              > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 2:19 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > At 100 yards my current arrows are fine. After a certain height I go with a
                              > pure gap shooting technique. As a result, I can get my arrow inside the
                              > castle walls at pennsic even when I'm shooting bad, and when I am shooting
                              > good, 4 out of 6 hit the guy.
                              >
                              > I'm seriously wondering if I should not just go with the gap shooting
                              > technique even at 20 yards. It would mean lining up the point below the
                              > bullseye, but it would give me a fixed spot to aim. The vulnerability of
                              > course is that it would make me horrible at unknown ranges. My range
                              > estimation is usually pretty bad. It is why I have problems hitting anything
                              > between 50-90 yards.
                              >
                              > On 8/17/09, Cleve Johnson <lighttrek@sbcglobal .net> wrote:
                              >
                              >>
                              >> If you want to shoot long distance, try a 190 grain long Bodkin point. For
                              >> fun, I wanted to see how far I could shoot. I was able to send my Bodkin
                              >> point arrows between 115 to 120 yards with a 32# longbow. I don't recommend
                              >> shooting the Bodkin points inside because if you miss the target, the
                              >> Bodkins will go right through the safety net and hit whatever is behind.
                              >>
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                            • William Arwemakere
                              And even with a theoretically perfect centershot (compound bow, properly set up drop-away rest, mechanical release) the spine of the arrow is still a factor.
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                And even with a theoretically "perfect" centershot (compound bow, properly
                                set up drop-away rest, mechanical release) the spine of the arrow is still a
                                factor. The inertia of the point acting against the impulse delivered by the
                                string attempts to "buckle" the shaft.

                                William

                                On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 10:39 AM, jameswolfden <jameswolfden@...>wrote:

                                >
                                >
                                > Archer's Paradox happens no matter what. The spining of the bow is how you
                                > deal with it.
                                >
                                > Spining really depends on the how close or how far away the bow is from
                                > being centreshot. The closer to centreshot a bow is, the more tolerant of
                                > spining the bow. Typically, recurve manufacturers recommend 5 to 10 pounds
                                > heavier.
                                >
                                > A period longbow without a shelf will often require a spine 5 to 10 pounds
                                > lighter.
                                >
                                > And, of course, there is a bow out there where the spine exactly matches
                                > the bow weight.
                                >
                                > Within reason, you can shoot an arrow that is either overspined or
                                > underspined, and it will hit either to left or right of where it is supposed
                                > to.
                                >
                                > There is a danger in shooting a unreasonably underspined arrow out of your
                                > bow. If you are shooting an 85 pound recurve, you shouldn't be shooting an
                                > arrow spined at 30 pounds because it can just snap on release driving the
                                > broken shaft into your forearm. However, most of the bows that I see on the
                                > line are 25-35 pounds and it is pretty hard to find a dangerously
                                > underspined arrow at that poundage. (Damaged arrows are another story.)
                                >
                                > James
                                >
                                > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>, Cleve
                                > Johnson <lighttrek@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > My understanding is that it is okay to have equal or heavier spined
                                > arrows than your bow, but not a lighter spined arrow, or you risk the
                                > archer's paradox.
                                > >
                                > > Eadric
                                > >
                                > > Cleve Johnson
                                > > lighttrek@...
                                > > www.books.lighttrek.com
                                > >
                                > > "Fortitudine vincimus"
                                > > (By endurance we conquer)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ________________________________
                                > > From: "mccobalt@..." <mccobalt@...>
                                > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 9:00:14 AM
                                > > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Sitka Spruce Shafts
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I went from Port Oxford Cedar to Sitka Spruce for my 34# Black Widow bow
                                > last year. However, I shoot 50-55# shafts. But I also have a 31" draw.
                                > >
                                > > John
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: "Ko" <moondragn@gmail. com>
                                > > To: SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 8:56:25 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Sitka Spruce Shafts
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I just brought 2 dozen Sitka Spruce shafts from 3 rivers archery. I was
                                > wondering if anyone has any experience with them? I noticed they were a lot
                                > lighter than cedar of the same diameter(5/16" ). I have these brass points
                                > that are only 50g weight. Will they be too light? The shafts were rated at
                                > 30-35lb, how will these light brass points affect the spine?
                                > >
                                > > Will I be able to use these arrows on my 33lb black widow?
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Nest verch Tangwistel
                                Carolus,   What do you mean by pronate? I thought it meant turn the elbow toward the back. I can still move my shoulder back with my elbow turned so I figure
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Carolus,
                                   
                                  What do you mean by pronate? I thought it meant turn the elbow toward the back. I can still move my shoulder back with my elbow turned so I figure I am getting the meaning wrong.
                                   
                                  nest

                                  --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:


                                  From: Carolus <eulenhorst@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Sitka Spruce Shafts
                                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 5:07 PM


                                   



                                  Nest,
                                  If you learn to pronate your bow elbow you will eliminate the shoulder
                                  creep. Takes a little work at first but really becomes more comfortable
                                  after you are used to it.
                                  Carolus

                                  Nest verch Tangwistel wrote:
                                  > My terminology might be somewhat different that yours, but I go with "point of aim" aiming at distances up to 40 yards, then switch to "gap" aiming. The first is using the tip of the arrow on a specific point at full draw to aim. The second is using the bow as an aiming aid (or my elbow above 100 yards). My aiming points at 20 and 30 are quite similar; on the ground to the right of the target. Then at 40 yards it moves up to target height, but still to the right. At around 60 yards the target dissappears behind my hand. I can still see it though as long as I keep both eyes open. Some of the especially close targets that we seem to love in the SCA, I shoot instinctively. Anyway the point is that I have always used different styles of aiming counting on the distance of the target. It seems to work fairly well for me.
                                  >
                                  > I think my biggest problem with shooting is laziness. Sometimes I don't get all the way back to my anchor point, and sometimes my bow shoulder likes to creep back. Both make it a bit easier to shoot, but throw the arrows low.
                                  >
                                  > Nest
                                  > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Steven Chang <moondragn@gmail. com> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: Steven Chang <moondragn@gmail. com>
                                  > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Sitka Spruce Shafts
                                  > To: SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 2:19 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > At 100 yards my current arrows are fine. After a certain height I go with a
                                  > pure gap shooting technique. As a result, I can get my arrow inside the
                                  > castle walls at pennsic even when I'm shooting bad, and when I am shooting
                                  > good, 4 out of 6 hit the guy.
                                  >
                                  > I'm seriously wondering if I should not just go with the gap shooting
                                  > technique even at 20 yards. It would mean lining up the point below the
                                  > bullseye, but it would give me a fixed spot to aim. The vulnerability of
                                  > course is that it would make me horrible at unknown ranges. My range
                                  > estimation is usually pretty bad. It is why I have problems hitting anything
                                  > between 50-90 yards.
                                  >
                                  > On 8/17/09, Cleve Johnson <lighttrek@sbcgloba l .net> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >>
                                  >> If you want to shoot long distance, try a 190 grain long Bodkin point. For
                                  >> fun, I wanted to see how far I could shoot. I was able to send my Bodkin
                                  >> point arrows between 115 to 120 yards with a 32# longbow. I don't recommend
                                  >> shooting the Bodkin points inside because if you miss the target, the
                                  >> Bodkins will go right through the safety net and hit whatever is behind.
                                  >>
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Carolus
                                  Pronating the elbow is placing the movement of the arm at the elbow in a horizontal plane. As you bend your arm, your wrist will remain at the same height
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
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                                    Pronating the elbow is placing the movement of the arm at the elbow in a
                                    horizontal plane. As you bend your arm, your wrist will remain at the
                                    same height from the ground. If your shoulders are in a line drawn
                                    through the center of the target and the elbow is pronated, the head of
                                    the humerus is locked under the corocoid process of the scapula and the
                                    articular capsule of the clavicle preventing the shoulder from moving
                                    and locking the arm into a fixed position. If you have access to a
                                    school with a good articulated skeleton model you can demonstrate this
                                    for yourself. If there is a problem with the connective tissue in the
                                    shoulder, the clavicle could be lifted and the shoulder will still
                                    collapse. In this case a visit to a good orthopedist in called for to
                                    make sure your shoulder is in good shape and your aren't continuing to
                                    injure it. I have seen some cases where shooters do not have their
                                    shoulders properly aligned to the target or they do not fully pronate
                                    the elbow (and yes, it really can be hard to do this consistently I have
                                    to pay particular attention to it myself) and the shoulder does not get
                                    properly locked. Next time you are shooting pay special attention to
                                    your arm and shoulder position and see if that doesn't stabilize the
                                    shoulder (it's the first thing I forget and have to relearn in my form).
                                    Carolus

                                    Nest verch Tangwistel wrote:
                                    > Carolus,
                                    >
                                    > What do you mean by pronate? I thought it meant turn the elbow toward the back. I can still move my shoulder back with my elbow turned so I figure I am getting the meaning wrong.
                                    >
                                    > nest
                                    >
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                                  • Steven Chang
                                    ok if you want to be technical, I technically do exactly the same thing you do at 40 yards. From 20-30 yards I just look at where I want to shoot and launch
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 17, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      ok if you want to be technical, I technically do exactly the same
                                      thing you do at 40 yards. From 20-30 yards I just look at where I want
                                      to shoot and launch the arrows. From 40-60 yards I use the tip of the
                                      arrows to line up a point somewhere near the target.

                                      once beyond 60 yards I use your definition of gap shooting (using the
                                      tip is technically considered gap shooting also). Since my arrow
                                      disappears from my field of view, i use the bow or my hand for my
                                      point of aim. The 100 yard aim point coincides with the joint on the
                                      bottom limb of my take-down recurve.

                                      I had some of that laziness problem too, I was taught how to get
                                      around that... First make sure you always have positive tension on the
                                      string... meaning you never stop pulling even when you hit your anchor
                                      point. Second, make sure the tension feels equal between your front
                                      hand and back hand. Between those two, you can stop the laziness,
                                      shoulder creep, etc.


                                      On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:50 PM, Nest verch
                                      Tangwistel<eastarch@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > My terminology might be somewhat different that yours, but I go with "point
                                      > of aim" aiming at distances up to 40 yards, then switch to "gap" aiming. The
                                      > first is using the tip of the arrow on a specific point at full draw to aim.
                                      > The second is using the bow as an aiming aid (or my elbow above 100
                                      > yards). My aiming points at 20 and 30 are quite similar; on the ground to
                                      > the right of the target. Then at 40 yards it moves up to target height, but
                                      > still to the right. At around 60 yards the target dissappears behind my
                                      > hand. I can still see it though as long as I keep both eyes open. Some of
                                      > the especially close targets that we seem to love in the SCA, I shoot
                                      > instinctively. Anyway the point is that I have always used different styles
                                      > of aiming counting on the distance of the target.  It seems to work fairly
                                      > well for me.
                                      >
                                      > I think my biggest problem with shooting is laziness. Sometimes I don't get
                                      > all the way back to my anchor point, and sometimes my bow shoulder likes to
                                      > creep back. Both make it a bit easier to shoot, but throw the arrows low.
                                      >
                                      > Nest
                                      >
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