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Re: additional Peerage Proposal ....final comments

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  • i_griffen
    During the past 10 years You have been putting this in front of the Board of Directors. They have been rejecting it You rewrite is again and then resubmit is
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 5, 2009
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      During the past 10 years You have been putting this in front of the Board of Directors. They have been rejecting it You rewrite is again and then resubmit is again it is rejected. When are you going to stop forcing this issue. You are a triple Peer. I get the feeling you are doing this only so you can have another Peerage.

      It may be a good idea to let the dead horse stay dead

      Iain Griffen
    • Carolus
      Though Sir Jon and I have never met face to face, we have communicated many times over the years and I feel I have some knowledge of the man. I believe he
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 5, 2009
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        Though Sir Jon and I have never met face to face, we have
        communicated many times over the years and I feel I have some
        knowledge of the man. I believe he honestly is putting this forward
        for the reasons he states. Many years age there were only knights as
        peers. Then the artists were recognized, and finally (after
        considerable dissension) those who served as officers and in other
        roles. Over the years it has seemed that there are others who also
        participate in ways which do not get recognized through the existing
        channels. Whether such recognition is desired, warranted, necessary,
        or even needed is a matter for discussion. In the past, the
        presentation of the idea was generally rejected out of hand without a
        proper opportunity for comment and discussion. This discussion is
        what Sir Jon has been asking for and now has. There is a deadline,
        comments have come in. Allow the matter to be considered, reviewed,
        and the BoD to take the action the commentary calls for. Then we can
        rightly call the matter closed.
        Carolus


        At 09:32 PM 8/5/2009, you wrote:
        >During the past 10 years You have been putting this in front of the
        >Board of Directors. They have been rejecting it You rewrite is again
        >and then resubmit is again it is rejected. When are you going to
        >stop forcing this issue. You are a triple Peer. I get the feeling
        >you are doing this only so you can have another Peerage.
        >
        >It may be a good idea to let the dead horse stay dead
        >
        >Iain Griffen
      • John edgerton
        It has only been rewritten once. The current proposal is the second rewrite. To the best of my knowledge it has not yet been rejected by the BoD. If you
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 5, 2009
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          It has only been rewritten once. The current proposal is the second
          rewrite. To the best of my knowledge it has not yet been rejected by
          the BoD. If you know differently, please let me know.

          Your feeling as to my reasons for doing this is incorrect and I find
          it rather insulting as well. I have stated my reasons many times on
          the SCA 4 Peerage Yahoo group, if you wish to read them there. I am
          now arthritic and my vision is getting worse. My scores and skill
          are not what they used to be a few years ago and it is unlikely that
          they will ever improve to a peerage level.

          The horse is not yet dead. It is alive and well and just keeps
          trotting along.

          Jon

          On Aug 5, 2009, at 9:32 PM, i_griffen wrote:

          > During the past 10 years You have been putting this in front of the
          > Board of Directors. They have been rejecting it You rewrite is
          > again and then resubmit is again it is rejected. When are you going
          > to stop forcing this issue. You are a triple Peer. I get the
          > feeling you are doing this only so you can have another Peerage.
          >
          > It may be a good idea to let the dead horse stay dead
          >
          > Iain Griffen
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dan Scheid
          Down boy even if you don t agree with this proposal (as I don t) you can remain civil Damales During the past 10 years You have been putting this in front of
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 5, 2009
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            Down boy even if you don't agree with this proposal (as I don't) you can
            remain civil

            Damales





            During the past 10 years You have been putting this in front of the Board of
            Directors. They have been rejecting it You rewrite is again and then
            resubmit is again it is rejected. When are you going to stop forcing this
            issue. You are a triple Peer. I get the feeling you are doing this only so
            you can have another Peerage.

            It may be a good idea to let the dead horse stay dead

            Iain Griffen




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          • arkayn69
            Greetings to the hall, I for one being a rookie (1 year) to the SCA and also a merchant would like to see this Peerage pass. As the archery events are the only
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 5, 2009
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              Greetings to the hall,

              I for one being a rookie (1 year) to the SCA and also a merchant would like to see this Peerage pass. As the archery events are the only extra curricular activities I get to enjoy. When you merchant you don't have time to fight in heavy weapons or rapier. It would be nice to get reconized for skills other then heavy fighting .

              Just my 2 cents,

              Arkayn
            • tibbiecroser
              I personally don t favor the proposal, but I commend Sir Jon and his collaborators for working very hard, through the proper channels, to try to effect changes
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                I personally don't favor the proposal, but I commend Sir Jon and his collaborators for working very hard, through the proper channels, to try to effect changes they want. There are many, many people on SCA lists who repeatedly gripe about how this or that should be banned, but they never *do* anything to get the rules changed.

                Tibbie Croser, Barony of Storvik, Kingdom of Atlantia, fencer and possible future target archer

                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "i_griffen" <i_griffen@...> wrote:
                >
                > During the past 10 years You have been putting this in front of the Board of Directors. They have been rejecting it You rewrite is again and then resubmit is again it is rejected. When are you going to stop forcing this issue. You are a triple Peer. I get the feeling you are doing this only so you can have another Peerage.
                >
                > It may be a good idea to let the dead horse stay dead
                >
                > Iain Griffen
                >
              • Beth Kilburn
                Hi, all! Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. Below is most of the feedback I myself sent to the SCA comments email address... Eibhlin I am for either a fourth
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                  Hi, all! Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. Below is most of the feedback I myself sent to the SCA comments email address...
                  Eibhlin


                  I am for either a fourth Peerage (preferrable) or officially making a Peerage recognition "the other half" of OL (if that makes it easier to swallow) even though that may not make much sense, having A&S as one half & weapons/equestrian as the other half. I am still relatively new to the SCA. I have no rank, nor am I in a Peerage group. The Chivalry is for Knights (oath of fealty) & Mastery of Arms (no oath of fealty), the Laurels have theirs for excellence in A&S, and the Pelicans have theirs for excellence in service. What about those of us who do not do heavy combat or have yet to excel in A&S or may never hold a kingdom/society level office?

                  There is a Peerage for those who do great service to their kingdom with heavy weapons but not a Peerage for those who do great service with non-rattan weapons? There is a Peerage to include those who do beautiful & delicate embroidery but not for those who know how to handle a beautiful horse on a field? It definitely seems to me that since there is Peerage recognition for some who excel but not for all who excel, that a slight re-organization can be done in order that all who are dedicated (to learning about x, participating in x, & teaching others what they've learned about x so that they too may excel in x) might have equal opportunity to attain Peerage status.





                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "tibbiecroser" <kmackavanagh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I personally don't favor the proposal, but I commend Sir Jon and his collaborators for working very hard, through the proper channels, to try to effect changes they want. There are many, many people on SCA lists who repeatedly gripe about how this or that should be banned, but they never *do* anything to get the rules changed.
                  >
                  > Tibbie Croser, Barony of Storvik, Kingdom of Atlantia, fencer and possible future target archer
                  >
                  > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "i_griffen" <i_griffen@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > During the past 10 years You have been putting this in front of the Board of Directors. They have been rejecting it You rewrite is again and then resubmit is again it is rejected. When are you going to stop forcing this issue. You are a triple Peer. I get the feeling you are doing this only so you can have another Peerage.
                  > >
                  > > It may be a good idea to let the dead horse stay dead
                  > >
                  > > Iain Griffen
                  > >
                  >
                • Dan Scheid
                  I need to make some correction before this gets out of hand .. post inserted below. _____ From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                    I need to make some correction before this gets out of hand .. post inserted
                    below.

                    _____

                    From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Beth Kilburn
                    Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 10:29 AM
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: additional Peerage Proposal ....final comments





                    Hi, all! Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. Below is most of the feedback I
                    myself sent to the SCA comments email address...
                    Eibhlin

                    I am for either a fourth Peerage (preferrable) or officially making a
                    Peerage recognition "the other half" of OL (if that makes it easier to
                    swallow) even though that may not make much sense, having A&S as one half &
                    weapons/equestrian as the other half. I am still relatively new to the SCA.
                    I have no rank, nor am I in a Peerage group. The Chivalry is for Knights
                    (oath of fealty) & Mastery of Arms (no oath of fealty), the Laurels have
                    theirs for excellence in A&S, and the Pelicans have theirs for excellence in
                    service. What about those of us who do not do heavy combat or have yet to
                    excel in A&S or may never hold a kingdom/society level office?

                    There is a Peerage for those who do great service to their kingdom with
                    heavy weapons but not a Peerage for those who do great service with
                    non-rattan weapons?

                    / no service is service you can get a pelican for anything in this group it
                    just a measure of work for the group

                    There is a Peerage to include those who do beautiful & delicate embroidery
                    but not for those who know how to handle a beautiful horse on a field?

                    Wrong again riding well can get you invited into the order of the Laurel.
                    (I know that's how I got invited)

                    It definitely seems to me that since there is Peerage recognition for some
                    who excel but not for all who excel, that a slight re-organization can be
                    done in order that all who are dedicated (to learning about x, participating
                    in x, & teaching others what they've learned about x so that they too may
                    excel in x) might have equal opportunity to attain Peerage status.

                    What is at odds here is NON RATTAN COMBAT. This is a whole in our group
                    that does not fit in service, A&S or Rattan combat (chivalry)

                    Damales Redbeard O.L.



                    --- In SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                    "tibbiecroser" <kmackavanagh@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I personally don't favor the proposal, but I commend Sir Jon and his
                    collaborators for working very hard, through the proper channels, to try to
                    effect changes they want. There are many, many people on SCA lists who
                    repeatedly gripe about how this or that should be banned, but they never
                    *do* anything to get the rules changed.
                    >
                    > Tibbie Croser, Barony of Storvik, Kingdom of Atlantia, fencer and possible
                    future target archer
                    >
                    > --- In SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com, "i_griffen" <i_griffen@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > During the past 10 years You have been putting this in front of the
                    Board of Directors. They have been rejecting it You rewrite is again and
                    then resubmit is again it is rejected. When are you going to stop forcing
                    this issue. You are a triple Peer. I get the feeling you are doing this only
                    so you can have another Peerage.
                    > >
                    > > It may be a good idea to let the dead horse stay dead
                    > >
                    > > Iain Griffen
                    > >
                    >




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                  • Sandra
                    Friends and comradres lets be civil and try not to start any flame wars (it hasnt yet but its getting a lil warm)... there are differences in opinion on this
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                      Friends and comradres lets be civil and try not to start any flame wars (it hasnt yet but its getting a lil warm)... there are differences in opinion on this and guess what, if you have an opinion that's what this proposal is about. Submit your comments to BoD; both pro and con are welcome. :)

                      Personally, I find I am on the fence with the 4th peerage idea. I am all for recognizing people for thier talents and strengths but whether or not they "fit" into one of the 3 exisitng peerages or if a new one should be created is a tricky thing to figure out. Many have argued that any of the non-rattan fighters can fit into either of the 3 existing peerages and I can see that but only in a certain sense. Like fitting a round peg into a square hole....it can fit if its the right size; the mission could be accomplished but was it really meant to be by that method? I am finding ways I can fit a peerage through archery (both target and combat) in either Chivalry or Laurel pathway myself; a personal vendetta of course to see if its possible. But then again after all there are Knights who made it not by sword and board but rather (ie)spear; rare but possible. Then at the the same I would like to see a peerage for what specific discipline it is suppose to encompass... but specific to one "class" so a "catch-all" peerage I think is a bad idea. Equal recognition for each different discipline could be complicated still even with a peerage that catches all [others].

                      Best I can do at this point is share my opinion, submit my comments to the BoD thingy then get out there (events), play, fight, shoot, create/recreate, make friends, learn, teach etc but most importantly have fun.

                      Respectfully,

                      Rohesia
                      Shire of Border Vale Keep
                      Kingdom of Atlantia
                    • Beth Kilburn
                      I apologize for not knowing one who excels in horsemanship would be able to maybe achieve peerage in OL. Given that, aside from the equestrian part of my
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                        I apologize for not knowing one who excels in horsemanship would be able to maybe achieve peerage in OL. Given that, aside from the equestrian part of my statement, I'm still under the impression a fourth peerage or an "amendment" to OL should still be seriously considered.

                        Master Damales Redbeard, When you say, "no service is service you can get a pelican for anything in this group it just a measure of work for the group", what exactly does that mean?

                        Eibhlin


                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Scheid" <damales@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I need to make some correction before this gets out of hand .. post inserted
                        > below.
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of Beth Kilburn
                        > Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 10:29 AM
                        > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: additional Peerage Proposal ....final comments
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi, all! Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. Below is most of the feedback I
                        > myself sent to the SCA comments email address...
                        > Eibhlin
                        >
                        > I am for either a fourth Peerage (preferrable) or officially making a
                        > Peerage recognition "the other half" of OL (if that makes it easier to
                        > swallow) even though that may not make much sense, having A&S as one half &
                        > weapons/equestrian as the other half. I am still relatively new to the SCA.
                        > I have no rank, nor am I in a Peerage group. The Chivalry is for Knights
                        > (oath of fealty) & Mastery of Arms (no oath of fealty), the Laurels have
                        > theirs for excellence in A&S, and the Pelicans have theirs for excellence in
                        > service. What about those of us who do not do heavy combat or have yet to
                        > excel in A&S or may never hold a kingdom/society level office?
                        >
                        > There is a Peerage for those who do great service to their kingdom with
                        > heavy weapons but not a Peerage for those who do great service with
                        > non-rattan weapons?
                        >
                        > / no service is service you can get a pelican for anything in this group it
                        > just a measure of work for the group
                        >
                        > There is a Peerage to include those who do beautiful & delicate embroidery
                        > but not for those who know how to handle a beautiful horse on a field?
                        >
                        > Wrong again riding well can get you invited into the order of the Laurel.
                        > (I know that's how I got invited)
                        >
                        > It definitely seems to me that since there is Peerage recognition for some
                        > who excel but not for all who excel, that a slight re-organization can be
                        > done in order that all who are dedicated (to learning about x, participating
                        > in x, & teaching others what they've learned about x so that they too may
                        > excel in x) might have equal opportunity to attain Peerage status.
                        >
                        > What is at odds here is NON RATTAN COMBAT. This is a whole in our group
                        > that does not fit in service, A&S or Rattan combat (chivalry)
                        >
                        > Damales Redbeard O.L.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                        > "tibbiecroser" <kmackavanagh@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I personally don't favor the proposal, but I commend Sir Jon and his
                        > collaborators for working very hard, through the proper channels, to try to
                        > effect changes they want. There are many, many people on SCA lists who
                        > repeatedly gripe about how this or that should be banned, but they never
                        > *do* anything to get the rules changed.
                        > >
                        > > Tibbie Croser, Barony of Storvik, Kingdom of Atlantia, fencer and possible
                        > future target archer
                        > >
                        > > --- In SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > yahoogroups.com, "i_griffen" <i_griffen@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > During the past 10 years You have been putting this in front of the
                        > Board of Directors. They have been rejecting it You rewrite is again and
                        > then resubmit is again it is rejected. When are you going to stop forcing
                        > this issue. You are a triple Peer. I get the feeling you are doing this only
                        > so you can have another Peerage.
                        > > >
                        > > > It may be a good idea to let the dead horse stay dead
                        > > >
                        > > > Iain Griffen
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----------
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.45/2285 - Release Date: 08/06/09 05:57:00
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Dan Scheid
                        Master Damales Redbeard, When you say, no service is service you can get a pelican for anything in this group it just a measure of work for the group , what
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                          Master Damales Redbeard, When you say, "no service is service you can get a
                          pelican for anything in this group it just a measure of work for the group",
                          what exactly does that mean?

                          Eibhlin

                          -in simple terms work is work. pelicans are the work horses. It does not
                          matter if your cleaning toilets or out standing in the sun marshalling if
                          you are doing service to the group. You are doing the work that pelicans
                          recognized for. I have seen more then one archery and rapier pel made for
                          there "work" to better the game.

                          Make since?






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                        • Dave Poulin
                          I suspect that is only confusing due to a lack of punctuation... My take on that comment was that it should read thusly: No, service is service. You can
                          Message 12 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                            I suspect that is only confusing due to a lack of punctuation... My 'take' on that comment was that it should read thusly:

                            "No, service is service. You can get a Pelican for anything in this group. It is just a measure of work for the group."

                            Lord Antony


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Beth Kilburn
                            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:45 PM
                            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: additional Peerage Proposal ....final comments


                            Master Damales Redbeard, When you say, "no service is service you can get a pelican for anything in this group it just a measure of work for the group", what exactly does that mean?

                            Eibhlin


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                          • Dan Scheid
                            I apologize for not knowing one who excels in horsemanship would be able to maybe achieve peerage in OL. Given that, aside from the equestrian part of my
                            Message 13 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                              I apologize for not knowing one who excels in horsemanship would be able to
                              maybe achieve peerage in OL. Given that, aside from the equestrian part of
                              my statement, I'm still under the impression a fourth peerage or an
                              "amendment" to OL should still be seriously considered.



                              Eibhlin._,__

                              I will respectfully disagree. And here is why . Art and science are
                              something that is insulted. Your goal is to make the best widget you can or
                              to develop the best theory on how the moon moves. I does not matter what you
                              friend is doing. The goal is for YOU to do the best You can.

                              COMBAT is 180 deg. Different. Your goal is to best your opponent. . You do
                              not have to pull your bow absolutely correctly to get a shot on your
                              opponent. You can bounce all over you horses back if you can place your
                              lance on his shield . You goal is not to make it perfect. Your goal it to
                              make your opponent to miss or to make a mistake.

                              See the difference? This is why I feel it should be place in the Chivalry

                              Damales

                              _


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                            • Beth Kilburn
                              Yes, it does! Thank you for clearing that up for me! Eibhlin
                              Message 14 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                                Yes, it does! Thank you for clearing that up for me!
                                Eibhlin


                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Scheid" <damales@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Master Damales Redbeard, When you say, "no service is service you can get a
                                > pelican for anything in this group it just a measure of work for the group",
                                > what exactly does that mean?
                                >
                                > Eibhlin
                                >
                                > -in simple terms work is work. pelicans are the work horses. It does not
                                > matter if your cleaning toilets or out standing in the sun marshalling if
                                > you are doing service to the group. You are doing the work that pelicans
                                > recognized for. I have seen more then one archery and rapier pel made for
                                > there "work" to better the game.
                                >
                                > Make since?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----------
                                >
                                >
                                > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.45/2285 - Release Date: 08/06/09 05:57:00
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • John edgerton
                                But the intent of the proposals is to gain peerage recognition for those that have the peerage level qualifications and excel in the skills of one of those
                                Message 15 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                                  But the intent of the proposals is to gain peerage recognition for
                                  those that have the peerage level qualifications and excel in the
                                  "skills" of one of those fields, e.g. archery, rapier, equestrian,
                                  etc. If you do service, it is a Pelican. If you do arts and science
                                  work or research it is a Laurel.

                                  Jon

                                  On Aug 6, 2009, at 12:18 PM, Dan Scheid wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Master Damales Redbeard, When you say, "no service is service you
                                  > can get a
                                  > pelican for anything in this group it just a measure of work for
                                  > the group",
                                  > what exactly does that mean?
                                  >
                                  > Eibhlin
                                  >
                                  > -in simple terms work is work. pelicans are the work horses. It
                                  > does not
                                  > matter if your cleaning toilets or out standing in the sun
                                  > marshalling if
                                  > you are doing service to the group. You are doing the work that
                                  > pelicans
                                  > recognized for. I have seen more then one archery and rapier pel
                                  > made for
                                  > there "work" to better the game.
                                  >
                                  > Make since?
                                  >
                                  > ----------
                                  >
                                  > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.45/2285 - Release Date:
                                  > 08/06/09 05:57:00
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Beth Kilburn
                                  I actually agree that the OL isn t the place for non-rattan combat peerage skill recognition, at least not as the OL stands now and it I don t think it d be
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                                    I actually agree that the OL isn't the place for non-rattan combat peerage skill recognition, at least not as the OL stands now and it I don't think it'd be fair to change the OL to accomodate combat to go along side A&S in the same peerage group unless all peerage belong to the same group, but the SCA has advanced way beyond that point. Ok, right now I'm just rambling, huh? That's why a fourth peerage is preferable.

                                    Guess I should've stated my disagreement to even that particular part - that if non-rattan combat peerage skill recognition be side by side with another peerage, then Chivarly be considered. But is that something that should be considered? Maybe it would just be easier on everyone involved if a fourth peerage be made. Is peerage skill non-rattan combat the only peerage skill level not already covered? Might should consider them, too, if any, while we're at it... Ok, I'm starting to get a headache now.



                                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Scheid" <damales@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I apologize for not knowing one who excels in horsemanship would be able to
                                    > maybe achieve peerage in OL. Given that, aside from the equestrian part of
                                    > my statement, I'm still under the impression a fourth peerage or an
                                    > "amendment" to OL should still be seriously considered.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Eibhlin._,__
                                    >
                                    > I will respectfully disagree. And here is why . Art and science are
                                    > something that is insulted. Your goal is to make the best widget you can or
                                    > to develop the best theory on how the moon moves. I does not matter what you
                                    > friend is doing. The goal is for YOU to do the best You can.
                                    >
                                    > COMBAT is 180 deg. Different. Your goal is to best your opponent. . You do
                                    > not have to pull your bow absolutely correctly to get a shot on your
                                    > opponent. You can bounce all over you horses back if you can place your
                                    > lance on his shield . You goal is not to make it perfect. Your goal it to
                                    > make your opponent to miss or to make a mistake.
                                    >
                                    > See the difference? This is why I feel it should be place in the Chivalry
                                    >
                                    > Damales
                                    >
                                    > _
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                    > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                    > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.45/2285 - Release Date: 08/06/09 05:57:00
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • i_griffen
                                    ... I Also have see people over looked for doing the above. the main reason given (was because their personal opinion and ideal were different)
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Scheid" <damales@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Master Damales Redbeard, When you say, "no service is service you can get a
                                      > pelican for anything in this group it just a measure of work for the group",
                                      > what exactly does that mean?
                                      >
                                      > Eibhlin
                                      >
                                      > -in simple terms work is work. pelicans are the work horses. It does not
                                      > matter if your cleaning toilets or out standing in the sun marshalling if
                                      > you are doing service to the group. You are doing the work that pelicans
                                      > recognized for. I have seen more then one archery and rapier pel made for
                                      > there "work" to better the game.
                                      >
                                      > Make since?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      I Also have see people over looked for doing the above. the main reason given (was because their personal opinion and ideal were different)
                                    • Sandra Rangel
                                      The problem is that it looks good on paper to say non rattan combat should be encompassed in Chivalry. But when you read about Chivalry it states prowess in
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                                        The problem is that it looks good on "paper" to say non rattan combat
                                        should be encompassed in Chivalry. But when you read about Chivalry it
                                        states prowess in tournaments. That said, name me what crown
                                        tournament allowed for an archer or rapier combatant to compete?? And
                                        add in the fact that if you don't know or practice "sword and board"
                                        its doesn't matter what non rattan discipline you excel in you will
                                        most likely dare I say not be considered for a peerage in Chivalry.
                                        Hence the reasoning behind a fourth peerage. :)

                                        Advance thought on the other end of the spectrum is that as a peer you
                                        a laurel, knight or pelican of the SCA not such-n-such Kingdom. So how
                                        can a peerage be created if not every Kingdom has rapier or combat
                                        archery. Then (rambling on myself lol) one could argue back that not
                                        every Kingdom has soap makers but they could still obtain a peerage in
                                        OL.

                                        This is like a circle....round and round the debate can go. But its
                                        good... It can bring change or at the very least an awareness of a
                                        long standing issue in the way we allow ourselves and other to play
                                        the game.

                                        ~Rohesia

                                        On 8/6/09, Beth Kilburn <iamanirishrose@...> wrote:
                                        > I actually agree that the OL isn't the place for non-rattan combat peerage
                                        > skill recognition, at least not as the OL stands now and it I don't think
                                        > it'd be fair to change the OL to accomodate combat to go along side A&S in
                                        > the same peerage group unless all peerage belong to the same group, but the
                                        > SCA has advanced way beyond that point. Ok, right now I'm just rambling,
                                        > huh? That's why a fourth peerage is preferable.
                                        >
                                        > Guess I should've stated my disagreement to even that particular part - that
                                        > if non-rattan combat peerage skill recognition be side by side with another
                                        > peerage, then Chivarly be considered. But is that something that should be
                                        > considered? Maybe it would just be easier on everyone involved if a fourth
                                        > peerage be made. Is peerage skill non-rattan combat the only peerage skill
                                        > level not already covered? Might should consider them, too, if any, while
                                        > we're at it... Ok, I'm starting to get a headache now.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Scheid" <damales@...> wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> I apologize for not knowing one who excels in horsemanship would be able
                                        >> to
                                        >> maybe achieve peerage in OL. Given that, aside from the equestrian part of
                                        >> my statement, I'm still under the impression a fourth peerage or an
                                        >> "amendment" to OL should still be seriously considered.
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> Eibhlin._,__
                                        >>
                                        >> I will respectfully disagree. And here is why . Art and science are
                                        >> something that is insulted. Your goal is to make the best widget you can
                                        >> or
                                        >> to develop the best theory on how the moon moves. I does not matter what
                                        >> you
                                        >> friend is doing. The goal is for YOU to do the best You can.
                                        >>
                                        >> COMBAT is 180 deg. Different. Your goal is to best your opponent. . You
                                        >> do
                                        >> not have to pull your bow absolutely correctly to get a shot on your
                                        >> opponent. You can bounce all over you horses back if you can place your
                                        >> lance on his shield . You goal is not to make it perfect. Your goal it to
                                        >> make your opponent to miss or to make a mistake.
                                        >>
                                        >> See the difference? This is why I feel it should be place in the Chivalry
                                        >>
                                        >> Damales
                                        >>
                                        >> _
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> ----------
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                        >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                        >> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.45/2285 - Release Date: 08/06/09
                                        >> 05:57:00
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        --
                                        Sent from my mobile device
                                      • George Ledbury
                                        ... what you are saying is that if you are not a heavy fighter you have no chivalry and if you are a Knight you do you don t know the same knights I do if you
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Aug 9, 2009
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                                          Dan Scheid wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I need to make some correction before this gets out of hand .. post
                                          > inserted
                                          > below.
                                          >
                                          > _____
                                          >
                                          > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                          > Behalf Of Beth Kilburn
                                          > Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 10:29 AM
                                          > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: additional Peerage Proposal ....final comments
                                          >
                                          > Hi, all! Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. Below is most of the feedback I
                                          > myself sent to the SCA comments email address...
                                          > Eibhlin
                                          >
                                          > I am for either a fourth Peerage (preferrable) or officially making a
                                          > Peerage recognition "the other half" of OL (if that makes it easier to
                                          > swallow) even though that may not make much sense, having A&S as one
                                          > half &
                                          > weapons/equestrian as the other half. I am still relatively new to the
                                          > SCA.
                                          > I have no rank, nor am I in a Peerage group. The Chivalry is for Knights
                                          > (oath of fealty) & Mastery of Arms (no oath of fealty), the Laurels have
                                          > theirs for excellence in A&S, and the Pelicans have theirs for
                                          > excellence in
                                          > service. What about those of us who do not do heavy combat or have yet to
                                          > excel in A&S or may never hold a kingdom/society level office?
                                          >
                                          > There is a Peerage for those who do great service to their kingdom with
                                          > heavy weapons but not a Peerage for those who do great service with
                                          > non-rattan weapons?
                                          >
                                          > / no service is service you can get a pelican for anything in this
                                          > group it
                                          > just a measure of work for the group
                                          >
                                          > There is a Peerage to include those who do beautiful & delicate embroidery
                                          > but not for those who know how to handle a beautiful horse on a field?
                                          >
                                          > Wrong again riding well can get you invited into the order of the Laurel.
                                          > (I know that's how I got invited)
                                          >
                                          > It definitely seems to me that since there is Peerage recognition for some
                                          > who excel but not for all who excel, that a slight re-organization can be
                                          > done in order that all who are dedicated (to learning about x,
                                          > participating
                                          > in x, & teaching others what they've learned about x so that they too may
                                          > excel in x) might have equal opportunity to attain Peerage status.
                                          >
                                          > What is at odds here is NON RATTAN COMBAT. This is a whole in our group
                                          > that does not fit in service, A&S or Rattan combat (chivalry)
                                          >
                                          > Damales Redbeard O.L.
                                          >
                                          > --- In SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > yahoogroups.com,
                                          > "tibbiecroser" <kmackavanagh@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I personally don't favor the proposal, but I commend Sir Jon and his
                                          > collaborators for working very hard, through the proper channels, to
                                          > try to
                                          > effect changes they want. There are many, many people on SCA lists who
                                          > repeatedly gripe about how this or that should be banned, but they never
                                          > *do* anything to get the rules changed.
                                          > >
                                          > > Tibbie Croser, Barony of Storvik, Kingdom of Atlantia, fencer and
                                          > possible
                                          > future target archer
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > yahoogroups.com, "i_griffen" <i_griffen@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > During the past 10 years You have been putting this in front of the
                                          > Board of Directors. They have been rejecting it You rewrite is again and
                                          > then resubmit is again it is rejected. When are you going to stop forcing
                                          > this issue. You are a triple Peer. I get the feeling you are doing
                                          > this only
                                          > so you can have another Peerage.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > It may be a good idea to let the dead horse stay dead
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Iain Griffen
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > ----------
                                          >
                                          > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                          > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.45/2285 - Release Date:
                                          > 08/06/09 05:57:00
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                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          what you are saying is that if you are not a heavy fighter you have no
                                          chivalry and if you are a Knight you do you don't know the same knights
                                          I do if you think that is atomatic
                                        • Dan Scheid
                                          By caporal Chivalry Is the name of the order no more no less Damales ... _,___ ... No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Aug 9, 2009
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                                            By caporal Chivalry Is the name of the order no more no less

                                            Damales
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >what you are saying is that if you are not a heavy fighter you have no
                                            >chivalry and if you are a Knight you do you don't know the same knights
                                            >I do if you think that is atomatic



                                            _,___


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