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Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

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  • Kelly
    start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is lost and cannot be used in the following rounds. that it ? ... From: James Koch To:
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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      start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is "lost" and cannot be used in the following rounds.

      that it ?
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: James Koch
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 11:39 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition





      Gentlemen & Ladies,
      >
      I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
      set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
      advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
      butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
      tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
      math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
      remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
      selecting 6 projectiles.
      >
      I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
      have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
      for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
      different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
      sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
      >
      Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
      1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
      the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
      shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
      same target.
      2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
      hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
      which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
      3) The shoot is un-timed.
      4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
      participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
      remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
      the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
      did not make a hit are eliminated.
      5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
      to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
      target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
      keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
      eliminated from the competition.
      6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
      made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
      re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
      competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
      remaining from the previous round.
      7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
      winning crossbow shooter remain.
      >
      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Siegfried
      Sounds good. Sounds simple. I ve seen a similar thing done before. But you need to move everyone back (or the target back) at each phase. Else you can be
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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        Sounds good. Sounds simple. I've seen a similar thing done before.

        But you need to move everyone back (or the target back) at each phase.
        Else you can be sitting there for a LONG LONG time while noone misses
        until exhaustion sets in.

        And if you start it nice and close, you can get people feeling good
        and having fun with it, as the attrition slowly begins. (30yd-ish for
        the first one? Assuming a 48" Saunders matt?) If you assume that
        it's moved back 10+yd-ish each time, then after a few rounds you'll
        whittle it down. And it will become quite the spectator sport with
        those knocked out watching and enjoying.

        A couple things to consider also, because someone will ask:

        1) Pass Throughs - Hopefully not an issue once at distance and if you
        choose a new-er matt.

        2) How do you count bounceoffs (or crossbow bolts that cartwheel and
        hit flat, etc). If witnessed are they a hit? Or must it stick?

        3) Deflections? If it hits the end of the matt, and is witnessed,
        does it count?

        4) If EVERYONE misses (or all bows, or all crossbows), how is it
        handled? Do you Just 'do over'? Do you bring the target back closer?

        5) And end-game should perhaps be planned, if you run out of room.
        IE. Assuming you are using the clout range, then at 120yd or so, you
        are going to run out of the ability to move the target farther. If
        you have some better shooters, they 'might' still be hitting it. You
        should at least have a plan in place, either to stay at 'max distance'
        until the randomness has someone fail out. Or to declare a multiple
        winner at that point, or flip a coin, or make people start shooting
        from one foot ;) You hopefully won't run into this, as the
        random-distance issue and stray shots will make people start missing
        earlier, but having an end-game planned in case, would make people
        happier than a random decision at that point.

        Siegfried


        On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 11:39 PM, James Koch<alchem@...> wrote:
        > Gentlemen & Ladies,
        >  >
        > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic.  I have drawn up a
        > set of rules for the contest and have included them below.  Be
        > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
        > butt.  I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
        > tripod.  This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition.  No
        > math whatsoever on anyone's part.  Even the distances shot will
        > remain unknown and irrelevant.  The only counting required will be in
        > selecting 6 projectiles.
        >  >
        > I have a question for the group.  Are the following rules clear, and
        > have I covered all the bases?  Please understand that I am not asking
        > for improvements or major changes to the competition.  If you think a
        > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
        > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
        >  >
        > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
        > 1)   This competition will award two prizes.  One prize will go to
        > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
        > shooter.  Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
        > same target.
        > 2)   The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range.  A
        > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
        > which fall or bounce back out.  Glances will not be counted as good.
        > 3)   The shoot is un-timed.
        > 4)   Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts.  Each
        > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
        > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended.  Participants who hit
        > the target stay in the competition into the next round.  Those who
        > did not make a hit are eliminated.
        > 5)   Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
        > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
        > target.  These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
        > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
        > eliminated from the competition.
        > 6)   After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
        > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
        > re-used.  Participants who hit the target and remain in the
        > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
        > remaining from the previous round.
        > 7)   The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
        > winning crossbow shooter remain.
        >  >
        > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > --
        > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >



        --
        ________________________________________________________
        Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
        Baron of Highland Foorde - Kingdom of Atlantia
      • James Koch
        Jon, ... It s a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a number of issues I hadn t addressed. I was thinking in terms of a saunders matt and
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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          Jon,
          >
          It's a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a
          number of issues I hadn't addressed. I was thinking in terms of a
          saunders matt and didn't consider pass throughs. However, just in
          case I'll add them to the list. I suppose we can add a center mark
          of sorts to the target face just to help the people who like a hard
          aiming point. As for the time involved in searching for misses, I
          don't think this will be a big problem since I expect the shoot to go
          pretty fast. Of course it will depend on how many people actually
          decide to compete. If we get 100+ this will be an issue at least in
          the early rounds. What I can do though is bring along a bunch of
          those little ground marker flags to show the former locations of the
          butt. That will make it easier for people who come back later
          looking for buried projectiles. The butt will definitely be moved
          back a bit for each new round. Of course this will be left to the
          marshal. As to the final two participants both missing, that is
          something which had not occurred to me. I guess we'll then keep the
          butt where it is and have a sudden death type shoot off where each
          takes a shot until one hits and the other misses. So when are you
          making the pilgrimage to Pennsic?
          >
          Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


          >Sounds like fun.
          >
          > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
          > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
          > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
          > >
          >
          >What about pass-throughs?
          >Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it
          >just be a blank face?
          >
          > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
          > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
          > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
          > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
          > > eliminated from the competition.
          > >
          >
          >If an archer does not find all of their misses right away (or after a
          >set time limit), they should have to wait for the end of the
          >competition to search for them.
          >
          > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
          > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
          > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
          > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
          > > remaining from the previous round.
          > >
          >
          >The rules do not state that the butt is going to be moved further
          >away after each end. But, I take it that is the intention.
          >
          > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
          > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
          > >
          >
          >What happens if after X number of ends, you have two archers and two
          >crossbow shooters remaining, and then they all miss with their
          >remaining arrows/bolts?
          >
          >Jon
          >
          >On Jul 11, 2009, at 8:39 PM, James Koch wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
          > > >
          > > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
          > > set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
          > > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
          > > butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
          > > tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
          > > math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
          > > remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
          > > selecting 6 projectiles.
          > > >
          > > I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
          > > have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
          > > for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
          > > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
          > > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
          > > >
          > > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
          > > 1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
          > > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
          > > shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
          > > same target.
          > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
          > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
          > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
          > > 3) The shoot is un-timed.
          > > 4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
          > > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
          > > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
          > > the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
          > > did not make a hit are eliminated.
          > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
          > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
          > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
          > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
          > > eliminated from the competition.
          > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
          > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
          > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
          > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
          > > remaining from the previous round.
          > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
          > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
          > > >
          > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John edgerton
          If you run out of space to move the target and you have tie scores at that point, you can have the next end at the same distance and the archer closest to the
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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            If you run out of space to move the target and you have tie scores
            at that point, you can have the next end at the same distance and the
            archer closest to the center mark wins. This was a period practice.

            When will I make it to Pennsic .... when I win the Lottery. ;-)
            Sounds like a fun competition, I wish I could make it.

            I just ran a somewhat similar competition at An Tir/West war. I had
            a series of rings of decreasing size, all shot at the same distance.
            Each archer had three arrows, only the archers that one arrow hIt
            inside the ring continued to the next smaller target. It was based
            on a period Italian competition.

            Jon

            On Jul 12, 2009, at 9:05 AM, James Koch wrote:

            >
            >
            > Jon,
            > >
            > It's a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a
            > number of issues I hadn't addressed. I was thinking in terms of a
            > saunders matt and didn't consider pass throughs. However, just in
            > case I'll add them to the list. I suppose we can add a center mark
            > of sorts to the target face just to help the people who like a hard
            > aiming point. As for the time involved in searching for misses, I
            > don't think this will be a big problem since I expect the shoot to go
            > pretty fast. Of course it will depend on how many people actually
            > decide to compete. If we get 100+ this will be an issue at least in
            > the early rounds. What I can do though is bring along a bunch of
            > those little ground marker flags to show the former locations of the
            > butt. That will make it easier for people who come back later
            > looking for buried projectiles. The butt will definitely be moved
            > back a bit for each new round. Of course this will be left to the
            > marshal. As to the final two participants both missing, that is
            > something which had not occurred to me. I guess we'll then keep the
            > butt where it is and have a sudden death type shoot off where each
            > takes a shot until one hits and the other misses. So when are you
            > making the pilgrimage to Pennsic?
            > >
            > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
            >
            > >Sounds like fun.
            > >
            > > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
            > > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
            > > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as
            > good.
            > > >
            > >
            > >What about pass-throughs?
            > >Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it
            > >just be a blank face?
            > >
            > > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow
            > shooters
            > > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
            > > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for
            > safe
            > > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
            > > > eliminated from the competition.
            > > >
            > >
            > >If an archer does not find all of their misses right away (or after a
            > >set time limit), they should have to wait for the end of the
            > >competition to search for them.
            > >
            > > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which
            > has
            > > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
            > > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
            > > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
            > > > remaining from the previous round.
            > > >
            > >
            > >The rules do not state that the butt is going to be moved further
            > >away after each end. But, I take it that is the intention.
            > >
            > > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and
            > one
            > > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
            > > >
            > >
            > >What happens if after X number of ends, you have two archers and two
            > >crossbow shooters remaining, and then they all miss with their
            > >remaining arrows/bolts?
            > >
            > >Jon
            > >
            > >On Jul 11, 2009, at 8:39 PM, James Koch wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
            > > > >
            > > > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn
            > up a
            > > > set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
            > > > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
            > > > butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
            > > > tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
            > > > math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
            > > > remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will
            > be in
            > > > selecting 6 projectiles.
            > > > >
            > > > I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear,
            > and
            > > > have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not
            > asking
            > > > for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you
            > think a
            > > > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
            > > > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
            > > > >
            > > > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
            > > > 1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
            > > > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning
            > crossbow
            > > > shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
            > > > same target.
            > > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
            > > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
            > > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as
            > good.
            > > > 3) The shoot is un-timed.
            > > > 4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
            > > > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
            > > > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
            > > > the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
            > > > did not make a hit are eliminated.
            > > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow
            > shooters
            > > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
            > > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for
            > safe
            > > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
            > > > eliminated from the competition.
            > > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which
            > has
            > > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
            > > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
            > > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
            > > > remaining from the previous round.
            > > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and
            > one
            > > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
            > > > >
            > > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James McAdams
            ... We did a combination of these last year as a fundraiser. 3 arrows, and the target moves back. Any arrows that missed the target were lost for future
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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              John edgerton wrote:

              >I just ran a somewhat similar competition at An Tir/West war. I had
              >a series of rings of decreasing size, all shot at the same distance.
              >Each archer had three arrows, only the archers that one arrow hIt
              >inside the ring continued to the next smaller target. It was based
              >on a period Italian competition.
              >
              We did a combination of these last year as a fundraiser. 3 arrows,
              and the target moves back. Any arrows that missed the target were lost
              for future rounds.
              The fundraising aspect was that you could re-buy any 'lost' arrows.
              A couple of generous and competitive archers made this the most
              successful of a half-dozen fundraisers we did that day.

              Xavier
            • Hobbe
              ... Move the people, not the butt.
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                >
                > The butt will definitely be moved
                > back a bit for each new round.
                >

                Move the people, not the butt.
              • James Koch
                Kelly, ... That s it in a nutshell. The rest is all legal mumbo jumbo. ... Jim Koch Gladius The Alchemist ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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                  Kelly,
                  >
                  That's it in a nutshell. The rest is all legal mumbo jumbo.
                  >
                  Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                  >


                  >start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is "lost" and
                  >cannot be used in the following rounds.
                  >
                  >that it ?
                  >----- Original Message -----
                  >From: James Koch
                  >To: <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  >Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 11:39 PM
                  >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition
                  >
                  >Gentlemen & Ladies,
                  > >
                  >I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                  >set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                  >advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                  >butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                  >tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                  >math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                  >remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                  >selecting 6 projectiles.
                  > >
                  >I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                  >have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                  >for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                  >different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                  >sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                  > >
                  >Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                  >1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                  >the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                  >shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                  >same target.
                  >2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                  >hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                  >which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                  >3) The shoot is un-timed.
                  >4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                  >participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                  >remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                  >the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                  >did not make a hit are eliminated.
                  >5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                  >to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                  >target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                  >keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                  >eliminated from the competition.
                  >6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                  >made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                  >re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                  >competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                  >remaining from the previous round.
                  >7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                  >winning crossbow shooter remain.
                  > >
                  >Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James Koch
                  Hobbe, ... It may be possible to move the people back, if the parallel ranges are closed at that time. I expect to use the existing gates, but until the new
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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                    Hobbe,
                    >
                    It may be possible to move the people back, if the parallel ranges
                    are closed at that time. I expect to use the existing gates, but
                    until the new ranges are set up, it's hard to say which will work
                    best. Leaving the butt stationary does make finding lost arrows easier.
                    >
                    Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                    >
                    >
                    >At 03:56 PM 7/12/2009, you wrote:


                    >--- In
                    ><mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com,
                    >James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The butt will definitely be moved
                    > > back a bit for each new round.
                    > >
                    >
                    >Move the people, not the butt.
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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