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Re: [SCA-Archery] waivers

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  • James Koch
    Gentlemen & Ladies, ... I have a relevant question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei who holds practices on their own property, if they have
    Message 1 of 27 , May 8, 2009
      Gentlemen & Ladies,
      >
      I have a relevant question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
      who holds practices on their own property, if they have participants
      sign a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
      the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
      >
      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
      >
      >

      >Greetings Dalton,
      >
      >We have a regular archery practice at my home in North Carolina - Atlantia.
      >I maintain good range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
      >goofing-around off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
      >*smile*).We do keep track
      >of who was at practice, but we've never felt the need for any kind of
      >waiver. I imagine from a liability perspective, that might change if someone
      >tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
      >
      >Lorelei
      >
      >
      >In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      ><mailto:ice.tiger%40shaw.ca>ice.tiger@... writes:
      >
      >Good day to the list,
      >We are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
      >for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or both for
      >archery practices in your home area? I am curious to know how things
      >are done in
      >difeerent areas/Kingdoms.
      >Dalton
      >
      >Lorelei
      >**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
      >steps!
      >(<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd>http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
      >=May5509AvgfooterNO115)
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James of the Lake
      ... Yes. If the practices are advertised in the local newsletter and are open to all. James
      Message 2 of 27 , May 8, 2009
        On May 8, 2009, at 8:51 PM, James Koch wrote:

        > Gentlemen & Ladies,
        >>
        > I have a relevant question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
        > who holds practices on their own property, if they have participants
        > sign a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
        > the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
        >>
        >


        Yes. If the practices are advertised in the local newsletter and are
        open to all.

        James
      • ld.blackmoon
        greetings are they still covered if they are holding regularly scheduled , advertised , missile practices without haveing the participants sign waivers ?? (
        Message 3 of 27 , May 8, 2009
          greetings

          are they still covered if they are holding regularly scheduled , advertised , missile practices without haveing the participants sign waivers ?? ( there is an officer and several marshals present )
          most archers are members, but we get pretty regular additions of newbies as well.
          Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun
          Arthur
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: James of the Lake
          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 11:01 PM
          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] waivers






          On May 8, 2009, at 8:51 PM, James Koch wrote:

          > Gentlemen & Ladies,
          >>
          > I have a relevant question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
          > who holds practices on their own property, if they have participants
          > sign a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
          > the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
          >>
          >

          Yes. If the practices are advertised in the local newsletter and are
          open to all.

          James





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        • James of the Lake
          The Society Seneschal s Handbook, p. 10, says non-combat-related practices do not require waivers, but your kingdom seneschal may still require them and is
          Message 4 of 27 , May 8, 2009
            The Society Seneschal's Handbook, p. 10, says non-combat-related
            practices do not require waivers, but your kingdom seneschal may
            still require them and is entitled to do so, so see whether your
            kingdom seneschal has a handbook or some other document addressing
            this. (Such documents may be found under the seneschal's page linked
            from your kingdom website.) I don't think Caid requires waivers for
            target archery practices; at least I don't remember them being
            required for practiced on our baronial range, which I own.

            Also see James Wolfden's email posted today in this thread concerning
            this topic in the SCA FAQ.

            James

            On May 8, 2009, at 9:23 PM, ld.blackmoon wrote:

            > greetings
            >
            > are they still covered if they are holding regularly scheduled ,
            > advertised , missile practices without haveing the participants
            > sign waivers ?? ( there is an officer and several marshals present )
            > most archers are members, but we get pretty regular additions of
            > newbies as well.
            > Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun
            > Arthur
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: James of the Lake
            > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 11:01 PM
            > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] waivers
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On May 8, 2009, at 8:51 PM, James Koch wrote:
            >
            >> Gentlemen & Ladies,
            >>>
            >> I have a relevant question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
            >> who holds practices on their own property, if they have participants
            >> sign a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
            >> the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
            >>>
            >>
            >
            > Yes. If the practices are advertised in the local newsletter and are
            > open to all.
            >
            > James
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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            >
            >
            >
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            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > Version: 8.5.325 / Virus Database: 270.12.22/2105 - Release Date:
            > 05/08/09 11:43:00
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > --
            > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
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            >
            >
            >
          • obsidian@raex.com
            Greetings ... the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple practice, and it isn t done, normally. Individual marshals at local practices
            Message 5 of 27 , May 9, 2009
              Greetings

              ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
              the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple practice,
              and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local practices can,
              of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever; there is no
              requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
              think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a simple
              practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a seperate
              waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event, which leads
              to part two...

              ----- Regarding Gladius' question about
              insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular meeting,
              and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such as a
              local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
              "event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
              circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if the
              kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted TAMs - I
              think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
              Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
              that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our area, what
              can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
              a local range and practice to their hearts content - without involving the
              SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense within SCA
              venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by extension,
              what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
              liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create liability
              as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and could be
              implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing up in a
              regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a practice on
              such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire newsletter,
              does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
              relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.

              Nigel

              On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
              > Gentlemen & Ladies,
              > >
              > I have a relevant
              question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
              > who holds
              practices on their own property, if they have participants
              > sign
              a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
              >
              the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
              >
              >
              > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
              >
              >
              > >
              >
              >>Greetings Dalton,
              >>
              >>We have a regular archery practice at my home in
              North Carolina -
              >> Atlantia.
              >>I maintain good
              range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
              >>goofing-around
              off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
              >>*smile*).We do
              keep track
              >>of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
              need for any kind of
              >>waiver. I imagine from a liability
              perspective, that might change if
              >> someone
              >>tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
              >>
              >>Lorelei
              >>
              >>
              >>In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
              Time,
              >><mailto:ice.tiger%40shaw.ca>ice.tiger@...
              writes:
              >>
              >>Good day to the list,
              >>We
              are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
              >>for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
              both for
              >>archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
              know how things
              >>are done in
              >>difeerent
              areas/Kingdoms.
              >>Dalton
              >>
              >>Lorelei
              >>**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
              just 2
              >> easy
              >>steps!
              >>(<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd>http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
              >>=May5509AvgfooterNO115)
              >>
              >>[Non-text
              portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              removed]
              >
              >


              --
              "Ausculta,
              feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non fundamentum pro
              formula administrationis est."
              -
              http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ronald Klick
              Greetings to everyone,   I have a further question. In my case, I am not able to forecast ahead to set dates to be published in our local newsletter. I
              Message 6 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                Greetings to everyone,
                 
                I have a further question. In my case, I am not able to forecast ahead to set dates to be
                published in our local newsletter. I therefore post an announcement on our local groups
                email list. I have been told that this constitutes sufficient notice that this can then be considered an "official" practice for which I can submit scores for Royal Rounds and
                IKAC Rounds. Does this then also mean it is covered as an official practice for SCA
                insurance? I am a warranted marshal in the East Kingdom, and I have a warranted
                children's officer present when I run kids IKAC rounds. 
                 
                Osmond de Berwic

                --- On Sat, 5/9/09, obsidian@... <obsidian@...> wrote:


                From: obsidian@... <obsidian@...>
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] waivers
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 5:29 AM










                Greetings

                ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple practice,
                and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local practices can,
                of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever; there is no
                requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
                think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a simple
                practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a seperate
                waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event, which leads
                to part two...

                ----- Regarding Gladius' question about
                insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular meeting,
                and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such as a
                local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                "event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if the
                kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted TAMs - I
                think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
                that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our area, what
                can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
                a local range and practice to their hearts content - without involving the
                SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense within SCA
                venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by extension,
                what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create liability
                as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and could be
                implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing up in a
                regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a practice on
                such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire newsletter,
                does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
                relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.

                Nigel

                On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                > >
                > I have a relevant
                question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                > who holds
                practices on their own property, if they have participants
                > sign
                a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
                >
                the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                >
                >
                > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                >
                >
                > >
                >
                >>Greetings Dalton,
                >>
                >>We have a regular archery practice at my home in
                North Carolina -
                >> Atlantia.
                >>I maintain good
                range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                >>goofing-around
                off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
                >>*smile*).We do
                keep track
                >>of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                need for any kind of
                >>waiver. I imagine from a liability
                perspective, that might change if
                >> someone
                >>tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
                >>
                >>Lorelei
                >>
                >>
                >>In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
                Time,
                >><mailto:ice. tiger%40shaw. ca>ice.tiger@shaw. ca
                writes:
                >>
                >>Good day to the list,
                >>We
                are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
                >>for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
                both for
                >>archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                know how things
                >>are done in
                >>difeerent
                areas/Kingdoms.
                >>Dalton
                >>
                >>Lorelei
                >>********** ****A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                just 2
                >> easy
                >>steps!
                >>(<http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122132 2931x1201367171/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072& hmpgID=115& bcd>http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122132 2931x1201367171/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072& hmpgID=115& bcd
                >>=May5509Avgfooter NO115)
                >>
                >>[Non-text
                portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                removed]
                >
                >

                --
                "Ausculta,
                feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non fundamentum pro
                formula administrationis est."
                -
                http://web.raex. com/~obsidian/ regindex. html

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • obsidian@raex.com
                Greetings Correct. Publication on a recognized Email list, while it doesn t have quite the legal force of printed document, is nevertheless sufficient to be a
                Message 7 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                  Greetings

                  Correct. Publication on a recognized Email list,
                  while it doesn't have quite the legal force of printed document, is
                  nevertheless sufficient to be a Official Notification, and therefore
                  invokes all current and relevant regulations.

                  Nigel

                  On Sat, May 9, 2009 10:59 am, Ronald Klick wrote:
                  > Greetings to
                  everyone,
                  >  
                  > I have a further question. In my
                  case, I am not able to forecast ahead to
                  > set dates to be
                  > published in our local newsletter. I therefore post an announcement
                  on our
                  > local groups
                  > email list. I have been told that
                  this constitutes sufficient notice that
                  > this can then be
                  considered an "official" practice for which I can submit
                  > scores for Royal Rounds and
                  > IKAC Rounds. Does this then
                  also mean it is covered as an official
                  > practice for SCA
                  > insurance? I am a warranted marshal in the East Kingdom, and I have
                  a
                  > warranted
                  > children's officer present when I run kids
                  IKAC rounds. 
                  >  
                  > Osmond de Berwic
                  >

                  > --- On Sat, 5/9/09, obsidian@... <obsidian@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  From: obsidian@...
                  <obsidian@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] waivers
                  > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Saturday, May 9,
                  2009, 5:29 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Greetings
                  >
                  > ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                  > the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple
                  practice,
                  > and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at
                  local practices can,
                  > of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards,
                  waivers, whatever; there is no
                  > requirement NOT to use them
                  either; but generally I think folks would
                  > think that sort of
                  thing much more officious than need be for a simple
                  > practice.
                  Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a seperate
                  >
                  waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event, which
                  leads
                  > to part two...
                  >
                  > ----- Regarding
                  Gladius' question about
                  > insurance. If a practice is officially
                  announced at a regular meeting,
                  > and/or if it is published in a
                  recognized Scadian publication such as a
                  > local newsletter or
                  whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                  > "event",
                  and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                  > circumstances,
                  the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if the
                  > kingdom
                  in which this takes places has recognized and warranted TAMs - I
                  >
                  think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                  >
                  Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of
                  us
                  > that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our
                  area, what
                  > can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to
                  someone's backyard or
                  > a local range and practice to their hearts
                  content - without involving the
                  > SCA as such by announcing or
                  advertising it in a formal sense within SCA
                  > venues or media. So,
                  the case that Gladius discusses (and by extension,
                  > what Lorelei
                  is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                  > liability.
                  The presence of a warranted marshal does not create liability
                  > as
                  such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and could be
                  > implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing up
                  in a
                  > regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a
                  practice on
                  > such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your
                  shire newsletter,
                  > does create an official SCA venue, and under
                  that circumstance, all
                  > relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations
                  are in force.
                  >
                  > Nigel
                  >
                  > On Fri, May
                  8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                  >> Gentlemen &
                  Ladies,
                  >> >
                  >> I have a relevant
                  >
                  question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                  >> who
                  holds
                  > practices on their own property, if they have
                  participants
                  >> sign
                  > a waiver and have a marshal on
                  hand to inspect equipment and run
                  >>
                  > the line, are
                  these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >>>Greetings Dalton,
                  >>>
                  >>>We have
                  a regular archery practice at my home in
                  > North Carolina -
                  >>> Atlantia.
                  >>>I maintain good
                  > range
                  safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                  >>>goofing-around
                  > off the range (fair amount on the
                  sidelines
                  >>>*smile*).We do
                  > keep track
                  >>>of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                  >
                  need for any kind of
                  >>>waiver. I imagine from a
                  liability
                  > perspective, that might change if
                  >>>
                  someone
                  >>>tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a
                  klutz.
                  >>>
                  >>>Lorelei
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M.
                  Eastern Daylight
                  > Time,
                  >>><mailto:ice.
                  tiger%40shaw. ca>ice.tiger@shaw. ca
                  > writes:
                  >>>
                  >>>Good day to the list,
                  >>>We
                  > are having a discussion in our area about
                  waivers and sign in sheets
                  >>>for archery practice. My
                  question is, do you require either or
                  > both for
                  >>>archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                  > know how things
                  >>>are done in
                  >>>difeerent
                  > areas/Kingdoms.
                  >>>Dalton
                  >>>
                  >>>Lorelei
                  >>>********** ****A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See
                  yours in
                  > just 2
                  >>> easy
                  >>>steps!
                  >>>(<http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/
                  100126575x122132 2931x1201367171/
                  >>> aol?redir= http://www.
                  freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072&
                  >>>
                  hmpgID=115& bcd>http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122132
                  >>> 2931x1201367171/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport
                  >>> .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072& hmpgID=115& bcd
                  >>>=May5509Avgfooter NO115)
                  >>>
                  >>>[Non-text
                  > portions of this message have been
                  removed]
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  > --
                  > "Ausculta,
                  > feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii
                  dispensans non fundamentum pro
                  > formula administrationis
                  est."
                  > -
                  > http://web.raex. com/~obsidian/ regindex.
                  html
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >

                  >


                  --
                  "Ausculta, feminae novae in
                  lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non fundamentum pro formula
                  administrationis est."
                  -
                  http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jameswolfden
                  I would recommend that any branch marshall read the Society Seneschal Handbook even if you are not intending on ever being a seneschal. It will give great
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                    I would recommend that any branch marshall read the Society Seneschal Handbook even if you are not intending on ever being a seneschal. It will give great insight into how our game is played behind the scenes.

                    Your group Seneschal must know that the event is occurring, it must be publicized to the group (this can be electronically), and you must conform to Society/Kingdom laws.

                    If you can, plan a regular scheduled practise with the option that it could be cancelled.

                    In Service,
                    James



                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Ronald Klick <osmond_de_berwic@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Greetings to everyone,
                    >  
                    > I have a further question. In my case, I am not able to forecast ahead to set dates to be
                    > published in our local newsletter. I therefore post an announcement on our local groups
                    > email list. I have been told that this constitutes sufficient notice that this can then be considered an "official" practice for which I can submit scores for Royal Rounds and
                    > IKAC Rounds. Does this then also mean it is covered as an official practice for SCA
                    > insurance? I am a warranted marshal in the East Kingdom, and I have a warranted
                    > children's officer present when I run kids IKAC rounds. 
                    >  
                    > Osmond de Berwic
                    >
                    > --- On Sat, 5/9/09, obsidian@... <obsidian@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: obsidian@... <obsidian@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] waivers
                    > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 5:29 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Greetings
                    >
                    > ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                    > the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple practice,
                    > and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local practices can,
                    > of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever; there is no
                    > requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
                    > think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a simple
                    > practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a seperate
                    > waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event, which leads
                    > to part two...
                    >
                    > ----- Regarding Gladius' question about
                    > insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular meeting,
                    > and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such as a
                    > local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                    > "event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                    > circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if the
                    > kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted TAMs - I
                    > think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                    > Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
                    > that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our area, what
                    > can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
                    > a local range and practice to their hearts content - without involving the
                    > SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense within SCA
                    > venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by extension,
                    > what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                    > liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create liability
                    > as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and could be
                    > implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing up in a
                    > regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a practice on
                    > such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire newsletter,
                    > does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
                    > relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.
                    >
                    > Nigel
                    >
                    > On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                    > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                    > > >
                    > > I have a relevant
                    > question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                    > > who holds
                    > practices on their own property, if they have participants
                    > > sign
                    > a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
                    > >
                    > the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >>Greetings Dalton,
                    > >>
                    > >>We have a regular archery practice at my home in
                    > North Carolina -
                    > >> Atlantia.
                    > >>I maintain good
                    > range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                    > >>goofing-around
                    > off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
                    > >>*smile*).We do
                    > keep track
                    > >>of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                    > need for any kind of
                    > >>waiver. I imagine from a liability
                    > perspective, that might change if
                    > >> someone
                    > >>tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
                    > >>
                    > >>Lorelei
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
                    > Time,
                    > >><mailto:ice. tiger%40shaw. ca>ice.tiger@shaw. ca
                    > writes:
                    > >>
                    > >>Good day to the list,
                    > >>We
                    > are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
                    > >>for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
                    > both for
                    > >>archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                    > know how things
                    > >>are done in
                    > >>difeerent
                    > areas/Kingdoms.
                    > >>Dalton
                    > >>
                    > >>Lorelei
                    > >>********** ****A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                    > just 2
                    > >> easy
                    > >>steps!
                    > >>(<http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122132 2931x1201367171/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072& hmpgID=115& bcd>http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122132 2931x1201367171/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072& hmpgID=115& bcd
                    > >>=May5509Avgfooter NO115)
                    > >>
                    > >>[Non-text
                    > portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > --
                    > "Ausculta,
                    > feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non fundamentum pro
                    > formula administrationis est."
                    > -
                    > http://web.raex. com/~obsidian/ regindex. html
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Carolus
                    Two items: 1) An event need not be published to be covered by insurance - all SCA sponsored activities are covered. See the Seneschal s Handbook, pg 22 et al.
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                      Two items:
                      1) An event need not be published to be covered by insurance - all
                      SCA sponsored activities are covered. See the Seneschal's Handbook,
                      pg 22 et al. This is a change from older rules
                      2) The signing of a waiver cannot be used to imply liability. This
                      is an urban myth. Waivers will not prevent lawsuits, they only make
                      them easier to win. The waiver is similar to the informed consent
                      form one signs at a doctor's office - is says you know the risks and
                      accept them willingly. The only difference in having a waiver or not
                      is that if no waiver is required it can be argued that the event
                      organizer(s) knew of the danger and concealed it thus making it
                      harder to win a suit.

                      That said, when I ran archery for Caid I asked for corporate opinion
                      and was told no waivers needed at archery practice.

                      Carolus
                      former Seneschal who reads the current handbooks


                      At 02:29 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:


                      >Greetings
                      >
                      >----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                      >the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple practice,
                      >and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local practices can,
                      >of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever; there is no
                      >requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
                      >think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a simple
                      >practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a seperate
                      >waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event, which leads
                      >to part two...
                      >
                      >----- Regarding Gladius' question about
                      >insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular meeting,
                      >and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such as a
                      >local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                      >"event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                      >circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if the
                      >kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted TAMs - I
                      >think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                      >Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
                      >that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our area, what
                      >can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
                      >a local range and practice to their hearts content - without involving the
                      >SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense within SCA
                      >venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by extension,
                      >what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                      >liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create liability
                      >as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and could be
                      >implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing up in a
                      >regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a practice on
                      >such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire newsletter,
                      >does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
                      >relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.
                      >
                      >Nigel
                      >
                      >On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                      > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                      > > >
                      > > I have a relevant
                      >question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                      > > who holds
                      >practices on their own property, if they have participants
                      > > sign
                      >a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
                      > >
                      >the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >>Greetings Dalton,
                      > >>
                      > >>We have a regular archery practice at my home in
                      >North Carolina -
                      > >> Atlantia.
                      > >>I maintain good
                      >range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                      > >>goofing-around
                      >off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
                      > >>*smile*).We do
                      >keep track
                      > >>of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                      >need for any kind of
                      > >>waiver. I imagine from a liability
                      >perspective, that might change if
                      > >> someone
                      > >>tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
                      > >>
                      > >>Lorelei
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
                      >Time,
                      > >><mailto:ice.tiger%40shaw.ca>ice.tiger@...
                      >writes:
                      > >>
                      > >>Good day to the list,
                      > >>We
                      >are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
                      > >>for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
                      >both for
                      > >>archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                      >know how things
                      > >>are done in
                      > >>difeerent
                      >areas/Kingdoms.
                      > >>Dalton
                      > >>
                      > >>Lorelei
                      > >>**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                      >just 2
                      > >> easy
                      > >>steps!
                      > >>(<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/ao
                      > l?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd>http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
                      > >>=May5509AvgfooterNO115)
                      > >>
                      > >>[Non-text
                      >portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      >removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >--
                      >"Ausculta,
                      >feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non fundamentum pro
                      >formula administrationis est."
                      >-
                      >http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html
                      >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >------------------------------------
                      >
                      >--
                      >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >No virus found in this incoming message.
                      >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      >Version: 8.5.323 / Virus Database: 270.12.22/2105 - Release Date:
                      >05/08/09 11:43:00
                    • James of the Lake
                      With regard to (1), the Caid Seneschal s Handbook, 8th ed., p. 20, states, however that a practice must be sponsored by an SCA branch, registered with the
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                        With regard to (1), the Caid Seneschal's Handbook, 8th ed., p. 20,
                        states, however that a practice must be sponsored by an SCA branch,
                        registered with the group seneschal and publicized to at least to the
                        members of that branch and open to any of them to be insured.
                        Publication in a branch newsletter is one way of meeting the
                        "publicized" and invitational requirements and implies branch
                        sponsorship and seneschal approval, especially for regular practices
                        over an indefinite periods.

                        James

                        On May 9, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Carolus wrote:

                        > Two items:
                        > 1) An event need not be published to be covered by insurance - all
                        > SCA sponsored activities are covered. See the Seneschal's Handbook,
                        > pg 22 et al. This is a change from older rules
                        > 2) The signing of a waiver cannot be used to imply liability. This
                        > is an urban myth. Waivers will not prevent lawsuits, they only make
                        > them easier to win. The waiver is similar to the informed consent
                        > form one signs at a doctor's office - is says you know the risks and
                        > accept them willingly. The only difference in having a waiver or not
                        > is that if no waiver is required it can be argued that the event
                        > organizer(s) knew of the danger and concealed it thus making it
                        > harder to win a suit.
                        >
                        > That said, when I ran archery for Caid I asked for corporate opinion
                        > and was told no waivers needed at archery practice.
                        >
                        > Carolus
                        > former Seneschal who reads the current handbooks
                        >
                        >
                        > At 02:29 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >> Greetings
                        >>
                        >> ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                        >> the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple
                        >> practice,
                        >> and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local
                        >> practices can,
                        >> of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever;
                        >> there is no
                        >> requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
                        >> think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a
                        >> simple
                        >> practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a
                        >> seperate
                        >> waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event,
                        >> which leads
                        >> to part two...
                        >>
                        >> ----- Regarding Gladius' question about
                        >> insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular
                        >> meeting,
                        >> and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such
                        >> as a
                        >> local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                        >> "event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                        >> circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if
                        >> the
                        >> kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted
                        >> TAMs - I
                        >> think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                        >> Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
                        >> that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our
                        >> area, what
                        >> can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
                        >> a local range and practice to their hearts content - without
                        >> involving the
                        >> SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense
                        >> within SCA
                        >> venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by
                        >> extension,
                        >> what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                        >> liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create
                        >> liability
                        >> as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and
                        >> could be
                        >> implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing
                        >> up in a
                        >> regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a
                        >> practice on
                        >> such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire
                        >> newsletter,
                        >> does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
                        >> relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.
                        >>
                        >> Nigel
                        >>
                        >> On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                        >>> Gentlemen & Ladies,
                        >>>>
                        >>> I have a relevant
                        >> question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                        >>> who holds
                        >> practices on their own property, if they have participants
                        >>> sign
                        >> a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
                        >>>
                        >> the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>
                        >>>> Greetings Dalton,
                        >>>>
                        >>>> We have a regular archery practice at my home in
                        >> North Carolina -
                        >>>> Atlantia.
                        >>>> I maintain good
                        >> range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                        >>>> goofing-around
                        >> off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
                        >>>> *smile*).We do
                        >> keep track
                        >>>> of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                        >> need for any kind of
                        >>>> waiver. I imagine from a liability
                        >> perspective, that might change if
                        >>>> someone
                        >>>> tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Lorelei
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
                        >> Time,
                        >>>> <mailto:ice.tiger%40shaw.ca>ice.tiger@...
                        >> writes:
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Good day to the list,
                        >>>> We
                        >> are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
                        >>>> for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
                        >> both for
                        >>>> archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                        >> know how things
                        >>>> are done in
                        >>>> difeerent
                        >> areas/Kingdoms.
                        >>>> Dalton
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Lorelei
                        >>>> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                        >> just 2
                        >>>> easy
                        >>>> steps!
                        >>>> (<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/ao
                        >> l?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?
                        >> sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd>http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/
                        >> 100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://
                        >> www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
                        >>>> =May5509AvgfooterNO115)
                        >>>>
                        >>>> [Non-text
                        >> portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        >> removed]
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> --
                        >> "Ausculta,
                        >> feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non
                        >> fundamentum pro
                        >> formula administrationis est."
                        >> -
                        >> http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> ------------------------------------
                        >>
                        >> --
                        >> [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> No virus found in this incoming message.
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                        > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
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                      • Carolus
                        Note: this is specific to Caid and not to the Society as a whole. As James points out, check your local rules - they may have additional requirements. I will
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                          Note: this is specific to Caid and not to the Society as a whole. As
                          James points out, check your local rules - they may have additional
                          requirements.
                          I will note, however that insurance requirements are set at society
                          level, not Kingdom, thus while your kingdom may require specific
                          conditions, they may not really matter in the event of a claim.

                          Carolus

                          At 10:47 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:
                          >With regard to (1), the Caid Seneschal's Handbook, 8th ed., p. 20,
                          >states, however that a practice must be sponsored by an SCA branch,
                          >registered with the group seneschal and publicized to at least to the
                          >members of that branch and open to any of them to be insured.
                          >Publication in a branch newsletter is one way of meeting the
                          >"publicized" and invitational requirements and implies branch
                          >sponsorship and seneschal approval, especially for regular practices
                          >over an indefinite periods.
                          >
                          > James
                          >
                          >On May 9, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Carolus wrote:
                          >
                          > > Two items:
                          > > 1) An event need not be published to be covered by insurance - all
                          > > SCA sponsored activities are covered. See the Seneschal's Handbook,
                          > > pg 22 et al. This is a change from older rules
                          > > 2) The signing of a waiver cannot be used to imply liability. This
                          > > is an urban myth. Waivers will not prevent lawsuits, they only make
                          > > them easier to win. The waiver is similar to the informed consent
                          > > form one signs at a doctor's office - is says you know the risks and
                          > > accept them willingly. The only difference in having a waiver or not
                          > > is that if no waiver is required it can be argued that the event
                          > > organizer(s) knew of the danger and concealed it thus making it
                          > > harder to win a suit.
                          > >
                          > > That said, when I ran archery for Caid I asked for corporate opinion
                          > > and was told no waivers needed at archery practice.
                          > >
                          > > Carolus
                          > > former Seneschal who reads the current handbooks
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > At 02:29 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >> Greetings
                          > >>
                          > >> ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                          > >> the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple
                          > >> practice,
                          > >> and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local
                          > >> practices can,
                          > >> of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever;
                          > >> there is no
                          > >> requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
                          > >> think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a
                          > >> simple
                          > >> practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a
                          > >> seperate
                          > >> waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event,
                          > >> which leads
                          > >> to part two...
                          > >>
                          > >> ----- Regarding Gladius' question about
                          > >> insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular
                          > >> meeting,
                          > >> and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such
                          > >> as a
                          > >> local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                          > >> "event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                          > >> circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if
                          > >> the
                          > >> kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted
                          > >> TAMs - I
                          > >> think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                          > >> Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
                          > >> that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our
                          > >> area, what
                          > >> can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
                          > >> a local range and practice to their hearts content - without
                          > >> involving the
                          > >> SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense
                          > >> within SCA
                          > >> venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by
                          > >> extension,
                          > >> what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                          > >> liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create
                          > >> liability
                          > >> as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and
                          > >> could be
                          > >> implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing
                          > >> up in a
                          > >> regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a
                          > >> practice on
                          > >> such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire
                          > >> newsletter,
                          > >> does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
                          > >> relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.
                          > >>
                          > >> Nigel
                          > >>
                          > >> On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                          > >>> Gentlemen & Ladies,
                          > >>>>
                          > >>> I have a relevant
                          > >> question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                          > >>> who holds
                          > >> practices on their own property, if they have participants
                          > >>> sign
                          > >> a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
                          > >>>
                          > >> the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>> Greetings Dalton,
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> We have a regular archery practice at my home in
                          > >> North Carolina -
                          > >>>> Atlantia.
                          > >>>> I maintain good
                          > >> range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                          > >>>> goofing-around
                          > >> off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
                          > >>>> *smile*).We do
                          > >> keep track
                          > >>>> of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                          > >> need for any kind of
                          > >>>> waiver. I imagine from a liability
                          > >> perspective, that might change if
                          > >>>> someone
                          > >>>> tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> Lorelei
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
                          > >> Time,
                          > >>>> <mailto:ice.tiger%40shaw.ca>ice.tiger@...
                          > >> writes:
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> Good day to the list,
                          > >>>> We
                          > >> are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
                          > >>>> for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
                          > >> both for
                          > >>>> archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                          > >> know how things
                          > >>>> are done in
                          > >>>> difeerent
                          > >> areas/Kingdoms.
                          > >>>> Dalton
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> Lorelei
                          > >>>> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                          > >> just 2
                          > >>>> easy
                          > >>>> steps!
                          > >>>>
                          > (<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/ao>>
                          > l?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?
                          > >> sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd>http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/
                          > >> 100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://
                          > >> www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
                          > >>>> =May5509AvgfooterNO115)
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> [Non-text
                          > >> portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > >> removed]
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> --
                          > >> "Ausculta,
                          > >> feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non
                          > >> fundamentum pro
                          > >> formula administrationis est."
                          > >> -
                          > >> http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> ------------------------------------
                          > >>
                          > >> --
                          > >> [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                          > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          > >> Version: 8.5.323 / Virus Database: 270.12.22/2105 - Release Date:
                          > >> 05/08/09 11:43:00
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
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                          >Version: 8.5.323 / Virus Database: 270.12.22/2105 - Release Date:
                          >05/08/09 11:43:00
                        • James of the Lake
                          ... Not when the Society seneschal specifically delegates relevant rule- making authority to the kingdom seneschals and that said seneschals (as well as local
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                            > On May 9, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Carolus wrote:
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> I will note, however that insurance requirements are set at society
                            >> level, not Kingdom, thus while your kingdom may require specific
                            >> conditions, they may not really matter in the event of a claim.
                            >>


                            Not when the Society seneschal specifically delegates relevant rule-
                            making authority to the kingdom seneschals and that said seneschals
                            (as well as local branch seneschals) are specifically legal agents of
                            the Society.

                            However, Carolus and I have indeed been referring to our direct
                            experiences in Caid over a number of years. I find it easier to cite
                            our kingdom's seneschal's handbook and relate it to my experience.
                            Probably since I am not a lawyer, I sometimes find the Society
                            handbook somewhat vague on specifics.

                            James
                          • Carolus
                            Actually, in this instance authority cannot be delegated. Insurance policies are governed by contract law and exist between the issuer and the policyholder
                            Message 13 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                              Actually, in this instance authority cannot be delegated. Insurance
                              policies are governed by contract law and exist between the issuer
                              and the policyholder (in this case the SCA,Inc.) What the Society
                              Seneschal can delegate is the authority to set rules as to what
                              constitutes an SCA sanctioned event in a local area. Obviously, if
                              the local rules for sanctioning an event are stricter than society
                              standards, the event will not be insured due to the terms of the
                              policy but we cannot set conditions for insurability on our own.
                              Carolus

                              At 11:58 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:

                              > > On May 9, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Carolus wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> I will note, however that insurance requirements are set at society
                              > >> level, not Kingdom, thus while your kingdom may require specific
                              > >> conditions, they may not really matter in the event of a claim.
                              > >>
                              >
                              >
                              >Not when the Society seneschal specifically delegates relevant rule-
                              >making authority to the kingdom seneschals and that said seneschals
                              >(as well as local branch seneschals) are specifically legal agents of
                              >the Society.
                              >
                              >However, Carolus and I have indeed been referring to our direct
                              >experiences in Caid over a number of years. I find it easier to cite
                              >our kingdom's seneschal's handbook and relate it to my experience.
                              >Probably since I am not a lawyer, I sometimes find the Society
                              >handbook somewhat vague on specifics.
                              >
                              > James
                            • James of the Lake
                              ... I don t agree. If the local rules were LOOSER than what the terms of the policy requires, then the event would not be covered if these rules did not
                              Message 14 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                                On May 9, 2009, at 1:56 PM, Carolus wrote:

                                > Obviously, if
                                > the local rules for sanctioning an event are stricter than society
                                > standards, the event will not be insured due to the terms of the
                                > policy but we cannot set conditions for insurability on our own.
                                >

                                I don't agree. If the local rules were LOOSER than what the terms of
                                the policy requires, then the event would not be covered if these
                                rules did not comply with the terms of the insurer's contract, but
                                additional rules that still fell within the scope of the contract
                                should not negate it.

                                Specifically, within the context of this topic on waivers, Society
                                Seneschal's Handbook, October 2005 ed. (the latest), p. 5, paragraph
                                X.A.3. "Individual Kingdoms or site owners may impose additional or
                                more stringent restrictions at their discretion" as to when waivers
                                are required.

                                James
                              • obsidian@raex.com
                                Correct, waivers cannot negate the possibility of being sued. But customary SCA practice for a very long while has been to provide a paper trail for informed
                                Message 15 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                                  Correct, waivers cannot negate the possibility of being sued. But
                                  customary SCA practice for a very long while has been to provide a paper
                                  trail for informed consent, and that is the sense in which I understood
                                  the original query.

                                  Nigel

                                  On Sat, May 9, 2009 12:15
                                  pm, Carolus wrote:
                                  > Two items:
                                  > 1) An event need not be
                                  published to be covered by insurance - all
                                  > SCA sponsored
                                  activities are covered. See the Seneschal's Handbook,
                                  > pg 22 et
                                  al. This is a change from older rules
                                  > 2) The signing of a
                                  waiver cannot be used to imply liability. This
                                  > is an urban
                                  myth. Waivers will not prevent lawsuits, they only make
                                  > them
                                  easier to win. The waiver is similar to the informed consent
                                  >
                                  form one signs at a doctor's office - is says you know the risks and
                                  > accept them willingly. The only difference in having a waiver or
                                  not
                                  > is that if no waiver is required it can be argued that the
                                  event
                                  > organizer(s) knew of the danger and concealed it thus
                                  making it
                                  > harder to win a suit.
                                  >
                                  > That said,
                                  when I ran archery for Caid I asked for corporate opinion
                                  > and
                                  was told no waivers needed at archery practice.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  Carolus
                                  > former Seneschal who reads the current handbooks
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > At 02:29 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:

                                  --
                                  "Ausculta, feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii
                                  dispensans non fundamentum pro formula administrationis est."
                                  -
                                  http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Carolus
                                  True, they may set more stringent regulations in terms of society operations but they may NOT change the terms of a contract with a third party and this is
                                  Message 16 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                                    True, they may set more stringent regulations in terms of society
                                    operations but they may NOT change the terms of a contract with a
                                    third party and this is where the insurability of an event comes in -
                                    it is in the contract between the SCA, Inc. and the insurance
                                    company, the kingdom has no standing. So while we may set more
                                    stringent regulations as to what constitutes a sanctioned event we
                                    cannot change the terms of the insurance contract. The effect is the
                                    same but the mechanism is different and in terms of contract law the
                                    mechanism is everything.
                                    Carolus

                                    At 02:40 PM 5/9/2009, you wrote:

                                    >On May 9, 2009, at 1:56 PM, Carolus wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Obviously, if
                                    > > the local rules for sanctioning an event are stricter than society
                                    > > standards, the event will not be insured due to the terms of the
                                    > > policy but we cannot set conditions for insurability on our own.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >I don't agree. If the local rules were LOOSER than what the terms of
                                    >the policy requires, then the event would not be covered if these
                                    >rules did not comply with the terms of the insurer's contract, but
                                    >additional rules that still fell within the scope of the contract
                                    >should not negate it.
                                    >
                                    >Specifically, within the context of this topic on waivers, Society
                                    >Seneschal's Handbook, October 2005 ed. (the latest), p. 5, paragraph
                                    >X.A.3. "Individual Kingdoms or site owners may impose additional or
                                    >more stringent restrictions at their discretion" as to when waivers
                                    >are required.
                                    >
                                    > James
                                  • James Koch
                                    Gentlemen & Ladies, ... For a number of years now we have been seeing discussions about new shoot formats. Now we are also seeing discussions about new shoots
                                    Message 17 of 27 , May 25, 2009
                                      Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                      >
                                      For a number of years now we have been seeing discussions about new
                                      shoot formats. Now we are also seeing discussions about new shoots
                                      for this upcoming Pennsic. I have a rudimentary idea. Why not hold
                                      a Champion Of The Known World shoot at this coming Pennsic. Any
                                      archer can participate with one condition to be related later. There
                                      will be two winners. One for hand bow and one for cross bow. Each
                                      winner will be awarded a trophy of some sort. The sort of belt that
                                      prize fighters wear would be cool. The condition would be that the
                                      participants would all agree that if they won, they would attend and
                                      host a similar shoot the following year at Estrella or Gulf Wars
                                      where they would defend their title against all comers.
                                      >
                                      So let's discuss all the logistics and similar issues entailed.
                                      >
                                      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                    • James of the Lake
                                      Already been done. At Estrella for some years, then the organizers got better and changed the name to Estrella War Champion. James
                                      Message 18 of 27 , May 25, 2009
                                        Already been done. At Estrella for some years, then the organizers
                                        got better and changed the name to Estrella War Champion.

                                        James

                                        On May 25, 2009, at 6:55 PM, James Koch wrote:

                                        > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                        >>
                                        > For a number of years now we have been seeing discussions about new
                                        > shoot formats. Now we are also seeing discussions about new shoots
                                        > for this upcoming Pennsic. I have a rudimentary idea. Why not hold
                                        > a Champion Of The Known World shoot at this coming Pennsic. Any
                                        > archer can participate with one condition to be related later. There
                                        > will be two winners. One for hand bow and one for cross bow. Each
                                        > winner will be awarded a trophy of some sort. The sort of belt that
                                        > prize fighters wear would be cool. The condition would be that the
                                        > participants would all agree that if they won, they would attend and
                                        > host a similar shoot the following year at Estrella or Gulf Wars
                                        > where they would defend their title against all comers.
                                        >>
                                        > So let's discuss all the logistics and similar issues entailed.
                                        >>
                                        > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                        >
                                      • James Koch
                                        James, ... Perhaps we can do a similar shoot at Pennsic and another can take place at Gulf Wars. The rules of the shoots could actually be quite different.
                                        Message 19 of 27 , May 26, 2009
                                          James,
                                          >
                                          Perhaps we can do a similar shoot at Pennsic and another can take
                                          place at Gulf Wars. The rules of the shoots could actually be quite
                                          different. It would be like the Trifecta of SCA archery. A person
                                          could resolve to shoot in all three. Of course the chances of
                                          winning all three in a given year, the triple crown, would be nearly
                                          zero, but it would be worth a try. An archer could figure his
                                          relative rank by a simple percentile average.
                                          >
                                          What are the rules of the Estrella shoot, or does it change from year to year?
                                          >
                                          Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >At 11:01 PM 5/25/2009, you wrote:


                                          >Already been done. At Estrella for some years, then the organizers
                                          >got better and changed the name to Estrella War Champion.
                                          >
                                          >James
                                          >
                                          >On May 25, 2009, at 6:55 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                          > >>
                                          > > For a number of years now we have been seeing discussions about new
                                          > > shoot formats. Now we are also seeing discussions about new shoots
                                          > > for this upcoming Pennsic. I have a rudimentary idea. Why not hold
                                          > > a Champion Of The Known World shoot at this coming Pennsic. Any
                                          > > archer can participate with one condition to be related later. There
                                          > > will be two winners. One for hand bow and one for cross bow. Each
                                          > > winner will be awarded a trophy of some sort. The sort of belt that
                                          > > prize fighters wear would be cool. The condition would be that the
                                          > > participants would all agree that if they won, they would attend and
                                          > > host a similar shoot the following year at Estrella or Gulf Wars
                                          > > where they would defend their title against all comers.
                                          > >>
                                          > > So let's discuss all the logistics and similar issues entailed.
                                          > >>
                                          > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                          > >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • James of the Lake
                                          The Estrella War Archery Champion Tournament (Ewac) consists of three competitions run simultaneously (hand bow, crossbow, youth). Each archer first shoots a
                                          Message 20 of 27 , May 26, 2009
                                            The Estrella War Archery Champion Tournament (Ewac) consists of three
                                            competitions run simultaneously (hand bow, crossbow, youth). Each
                                            archer first shoots a qualification Royal Round; top 5 archers in
                                            each kingdom for each category advance to the finals, which is an
                                            IKAC. All shot on 60cm FITA targets.

                                            Normally I'd direct you to the treaty page on the Estrella War site
                                            for details, but I see there's no link to the last war this time.

                                            Lots of opportunity to do period-style shooting at other events as
                                            part of an overall SCA-wide championship.

                                            James

                                            On May 26, 2009, at 9:32 PM, James Koch wrote:

                                            > James,
                                            >>
                                            > Perhaps we can do a similar shoot at Pennsic and another can take
                                            > place at Gulf Wars. The rules of the shoots could actually be quite
                                            > different. It would be like the Trifecta of SCA archery. A person
                                            > could resolve to shoot in all three. Of course the chances of
                                            > winning all three in a given year, the triple crown, would be nearly
                                            > zero, but it would be worth a try. An archer could figure his
                                            > relative rank by a simple percentile average.
                                            >>
                                            > What are the rules of the Estrella shoot, or does it change from
                                            > year to year?
                                            >>
                                            > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> At 11:01 PM 5/25/2009, you wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> Already been done. At Estrella for some years, then the organizers
                                            >> got better and changed the name to Estrella War Champion.
                                            >>
                                            >> James
                                            >>
                                            >> On May 25, 2009, at 6:55 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >>> Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                            >>>>
                                            >>> For a number of years now we have been seeing discussions about new
                                            >>> shoot formats. Now we are also seeing discussions about new shoots
                                            >>> for this upcoming Pennsic. I have a rudimentary idea. Why not hold
                                            >>> a Champion Of The Known World shoot at this coming Pennsic. Any
                                            >>> archer can participate with one condition to be related later. There
                                            >>> will be two winners. One for hand bow and one for cross bow. Each
                                            >>> winner will be awarded a trophy of some sort. The sort of belt that
                                            >>> prize fighters wear would be cool. The condition would be that the
                                            >>> participants would all agree that if they won, they would attend and
                                            >>> host a similar shoot the following year at Estrella or Gulf Wars
                                            >>> where they would defend their title against all comers.
                                            >>>>
                                            >>> So let's discuss all the logistics and similar issues entailed.
                                            >>>>
                                            >>> Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                            >>>
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • William Arwemakere
                                            Hmm, I may have to go to an Estrella... Do they still run the Quick and the dead tourney? William Arwemakere On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:22 PM, James of the
                                            Message 21 of 27 , May 27, 2009
                                              Hmm, I may have to go to an Estrella...

                                              Do they still run the "Quick and the dead" tourney?

                                              William Arwemakere

                                              On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:22 PM, James of the Lake
                                              <jotl2008@...>wrote:

                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The Estrella War Archery Champion Tournament (Ewac) consists of three
                                              > competitions run simultaneously (hand bow, crossbow, youth). Each
                                              > archer first shoots a qualification Royal Round; top 5 archers in
                                              > each kingdom for each category advance to the finals, which is an
                                              > IKAC. All shot on 60cm FITA targets.
                                              >
                                              > Normally I'd direct you to the treaty page on the Estrella War site
                                              > for details, but I see there's no link to the last war this time.
                                              >
                                              > Lots of opportunity to do period-style shooting at other events as
                                              > part of an overall SCA-wide championship.
                                              >
                                              > James
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On May 26, 2009, at 9:32 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > >>
                                              > >
                                              > Recent Activity
                                              >
                                              > - 2
                                              > New Members<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMXQ4dGlkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTUzMQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3Njc1MDMEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdm1icnMEc3RpbWUDMTI0MzQwMTg4NA-->
                                              >
                                              > Visit Your Group
                                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdTUxbzlqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTUzMQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3Njc1MDMEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdmdocARzdGltZQMxMjQzNDAxODg0>
                                              > Give Back
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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • James of the Lake
                                              Dunno. Might have been a side event. The main show is the war point shoot. Three days of novelties with FITA s mostly confined to the practice range. James
                                              Message 22 of 27 , May 27, 2009
                                                Dunno. Might have been a side event.

                                                The main show is the war point shoot. Three days of novelties with
                                                FITA's mostly confined to the practice range.

                                                James

                                                On May 27, 2009, at 12:52 PM, William Arwemakere wrote:

                                                > Hmm, I may have to go to an Estrella...
                                                >
                                                > Do they still run the "Quick and the dead" tourney?
                                                >
                                                > William Arwemakere
                                                >
                                                > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:22 PM, James of the Lake
                                                > <jotl2008@...>wrote:
                                                >
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> The Estrella War Archery Champion Tournament (Ewac) consists of three
                                                >> competitions run simultaneously (hand bow, crossbow, youth). Each
                                                >> archer first shoots a qualification Royal Round; top 5 archers in
                                                >> each kingdom for each category advance to the finals, which is an
                                                >> IKAC. All shot on 60cm FITA targets.
                                                >>
                                                >> Normally I'd direct you to the treaty page on the Estrella War site
                                                >> for details, but I see there's no link to the last war this time.
                                                >>
                                                >> Lots of opportunity to do period-style shooting at other events as
                                                >> part of an overall SCA-wide championship.
                                                >>
                                                >> James
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> On May 26, 2009, at 9:32 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                                >>
                                                >>>>>
                                                >>>
                                                >> Recent Activity
                                                >>
                                                >> - 2
                                                >> New Members<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/
                                                >> members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMXQ4dGlkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTUzMQRncnBz
                                                >> cElkAzE3MDU3Njc1MDMEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdm1icnMEc3RpbWUDMTI0MzQwMTg4NA-->
                                                >>
                                                >> Visit Your Group
                                                >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-
                                                >> Archery;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdTUxbzlqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTUzMQRncnBz
                                                >> cElkAzE3MDU3Njc1MDMEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdmdocARzdGltZQMxMjQzNDAxODg0>
                                                >> Give Back
                                                >>
                                                >> Yahoo! for Good<http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/
                                                >> _ylc=X3oDMTJsMG1mYmE2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMjU5NTMxBGdycHNw
                                                >> SWQDMTcwNTc2NzUwMwRzZWMDbmNtb2QEc2xrA2JyYW5kBHN0aW1lAzEyNDM0MDE4ODQ-;
                                                >> _ylg=1/SIG=11314uv3k/**http%3A//brand.yahoo.com/forgood>
                                                >>
                                                >> Get inspired
                                                >>
                                                >> by a good cause.
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