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Re: waivers

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  • jameswolfden
    I should add that I only do the sign-in sheet for practises where we are charging a drop-in fee. Our normal outdoor practise range requires the archers to join
    Message 1 of 27 , May 8, 2009
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      I should add that I only do the sign-in sheet for practises where we are charging a drop-in fee.

      Our normal outdoor practise range requires the archers to join the Burnaby Archers. We don't charge an additional fee on top of that.

      James
    • James Koch
      Gentlemen & Ladies, ... I have a relevant question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei who holds practices on their own property, if they have
      Message 2 of 27 , May 8, 2009
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        Gentlemen & Ladies,
        >
        I have a relevant question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
        who holds practices on their own property, if they have participants
        sign a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
        the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
        >
        Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        >
        >

        >Greetings Dalton,
        >
        >We have a regular archery practice at my home in North Carolina - Atlantia.
        >I maintain good range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
        >goofing-around off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
        >*smile*).We do keep track
        >of who was at practice, but we've never felt the need for any kind of
        >waiver. I imagine from a liability perspective, that might change if someone
        >tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
        >
        >Lorelei
        >
        >
        >In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        ><mailto:ice.tiger%40shaw.ca>ice.tiger@... writes:
        >
        >Good day to the list,
        >We are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
        >for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or both for
        >archery practices in your home area? I am curious to know how things
        >are done in
        >difeerent areas/Kingdoms.
        >Dalton
        >
        >Lorelei
        >**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
        >steps!
        >(<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd>http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
        >=May5509AvgfooterNO115)
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • James of the Lake
        ... Yes. If the practices are advertised in the local newsletter and are open to all. James
        Message 3 of 27 , May 8, 2009
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          On May 8, 2009, at 8:51 PM, James Koch wrote:

          > Gentlemen & Ladies,
          >>
          > I have a relevant question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
          > who holds practices on their own property, if they have participants
          > sign a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
          > the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
          >>
          >


          Yes. If the practices are advertised in the local newsletter and are
          open to all.

          James
        • ld.blackmoon
          greetings are they still covered if they are holding regularly scheduled , advertised , missile practices without haveing the participants sign waivers ?? (
          Message 4 of 27 , May 8, 2009
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            greetings

            are they still covered if they are holding regularly scheduled , advertised , missile practices without haveing the participants sign waivers ?? ( there is an officer and several marshals present )
            most archers are members, but we get pretty regular additions of newbies as well.
            Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun
            Arthur
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: James of the Lake
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 11:01 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] waivers






            On May 8, 2009, at 8:51 PM, James Koch wrote:

            > Gentlemen & Ladies,
            >>
            > I have a relevant question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
            > who holds practices on their own property, if they have participants
            > sign a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
            > the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
            >>
            >

            Yes. If the practices are advertised in the local newsletter and are
            open to all.

            James





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          • James of the Lake
            The Society Seneschal s Handbook, p. 10, says non-combat-related practices do not require waivers, but your kingdom seneschal may still require them and is
            Message 5 of 27 , May 8, 2009
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              The Society Seneschal's Handbook, p. 10, says non-combat-related
              practices do not require waivers, but your kingdom seneschal may
              still require them and is entitled to do so, so see whether your
              kingdom seneschal has a handbook or some other document addressing
              this. (Such documents may be found under the seneschal's page linked
              from your kingdom website.) I don't think Caid requires waivers for
              target archery practices; at least I don't remember them being
              required for practiced on our baronial range, which I own.

              Also see James Wolfden's email posted today in this thread concerning
              this topic in the SCA FAQ.

              James

              On May 8, 2009, at 9:23 PM, ld.blackmoon wrote:

              > greetings
              >
              > are they still covered if they are holding regularly scheduled ,
              > advertised , missile practices without haveing the participants
              > sign waivers ?? ( there is an officer and several marshals present )
              > most archers are members, but we get pretty regular additions of
              > newbies as well.
              > Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun
              > Arthur
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: James of the Lake
              > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 11:01 PM
              > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] waivers
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On May 8, 2009, at 8:51 PM, James Koch wrote:
              >
              >> Gentlemen & Ladies,
              >>>
              >> I have a relevant question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
              >> who holds practices on their own property, if they have participants
              >> sign a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
              >> the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
              >>>
              >>
              >
              > Yes. If the practices are advertised in the local newsletter and are
              > open to all.
              >
              > James
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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              >
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > Version: 8.5.325 / Virus Database: 270.12.22/2105 - Release Date:
              > 05/08/09 11:43:00
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > --
              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • obsidian@raex.com
              Greetings ... the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple practice, and it isn t done, normally. Individual marshals at local practices
              Message 6 of 27 , May 9, 2009
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                Greetings

                ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple practice,
                and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local practices can,
                of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever; there is no
                requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
                think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a simple
                practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a seperate
                waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event, which leads
                to part two...

                ----- Regarding Gladius' question about
                insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular meeting,
                and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such as a
                local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                "event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if the
                kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted TAMs - I
                think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
                that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our area, what
                can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
                a local range and practice to their hearts content - without involving the
                SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense within SCA
                venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by extension,
                what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create liability
                as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and could be
                implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing up in a
                regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a practice on
                such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire newsletter,
                does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
                relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.

                Nigel

                On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                > >
                > I have a relevant
                question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                > who holds
                practices on their own property, if they have participants
                > sign
                a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
                >
                the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                >
                >
                > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                >
                >
                > >
                >
                >>Greetings Dalton,
                >>
                >>We have a regular archery practice at my home in
                North Carolina -
                >> Atlantia.
                >>I maintain good
                range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                >>goofing-around
                off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
                >>*smile*).We do
                keep track
                >>of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                need for any kind of
                >>waiver. I imagine from a liability
                perspective, that might change if
                >> someone
                >>tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
                >>
                >>Lorelei
                >>
                >>
                >>In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
                Time,
                >><mailto:ice.tiger%40shaw.ca>ice.tiger@...
                writes:
                >>
                >>Good day to the list,
                >>We
                are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
                >>for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
                both for
                >>archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                know how things
                >>are done in
                >>difeerent
                areas/Kingdoms.
                >>Dalton
                >>
                >>Lorelei
                >>**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                just 2
                >> easy
                >>steps!
                >>(<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd>http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
                >>=May5509AvgfooterNO115)
                >>
                >>[Non-text
                portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                removed]
                >
                >


                --
                "Ausculta,
                feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non fundamentum pro
                formula administrationis est."
                -
                http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ronald Klick
                Greetings to everyone,   I have a further question. In my case, I am not able to forecast ahead to set dates to be published in our local newsletter. I
                Message 7 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Greetings to everyone,
                   
                  I have a further question. In my case, I am not able to forecast ahead to set dates to be
                  published in our local newsletter. I therefore post an announcement on our local groups
                  email list. I have been told that this constitutes sufficient notice that this can then be considered an "official" practice for which I can submit scores for Royal Rounds and
                  IKAC Rounds. Does this then also mean it is covered as an official practice for SCA
                  insurance? I am a warranted marshal in the East Kingdom, and I have a warranted
                  children's officer present when I run kids IKAC rounds. 
                   
                  Osmond de Berwic

                  --- On Sat, 5/9/09, obsidian@... <obsidian@...> wrote:


                  From: obsidian@... <obsidian@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] waivers
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 5:29 AM










                  Greetings

                  ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                  the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple practice,
                  and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local practices can,
                  of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever; there is no
                  requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
                  think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a simple
                  practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a seperate
                  waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event, which leads
                  to part two...

                  ----- Regarding Gladius' question about
                  insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular meeting,
                  and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such as a
                  local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                  "event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                  circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if the
                  kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted TAMs - I
                  think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                  Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
                  that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our area, what
                  can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
                  a local range and practice to their hearts content - without involving the
                  SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense within SCA
                  venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by extension,
                  what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                  liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create liability
                  as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and could be
                  implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing up in a
                  regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a practice on
                  such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire newsletter,
                  does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
                  relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.

                  Nigel

                  On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                  > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                  > >
                  > I have a relevant
                  question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                  > who holds
                  practices on their own property, if they have participants
                  > sign
                  a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
                  >
                  the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                  >
                  >
                  > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  >>Greetings Dalton,
                  >>
                  >>We have a regular archery practice at my home in
                  North Carolina -
                  >> Atlantia.
                  >>I maintain good
                  range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                  >>goofing-around
                  off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
                  >>*smile*).We do
                  keep track
                  >>of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                  need for any kind of
                  >>waiver. I imagine from a liability
                  perspective, that might change if
                  >> someone
                  >>tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
                  >>
                  >>Lorelei
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
                  Time,
                  >><mailto:ice. tiger%40shaw. ca>ice.tiger@shaw. ca
                  writes:
                  >>
                  >>Good day to the list,
                  >>We
                  are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
                  >>for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
                  both for
                  >>archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                  know how things
                  >>are done in
                  >>difeerent
                  areas/Kingdoms.
                  >>Dalton
                  >>
                  >>Lorelei
                  >>********** ****A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                  just 2
                  >> easy
                  >>steps!
                  >>(<http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122132 2931x1201367171/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072& hmpgID=115& bcd>http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122132 2931x1201367171/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072& hmpgID=115& bcd
                  >>=May5509Avgfooter NO115)
                  >>
                  >>[Non-text
                  portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  removed]
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  "Ausculta,
                  feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non fundamentum pro
                  formula administrationis est."
                  -
                  http://web.raex. com/~obsidian/ regindex. html

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • obsidian@raex.com
                  Greetings Correct. Publication on a recognized Email list, while it doesn t have quite the legal force of printed document, is nevertheless sufficient to be a
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 9, 2009
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                    Greetings

                    Correct. Publication on a recognized Email list,
                    while it doesn't have quite the legal force of printed document, is
                    nevertheless sufficient to be a Official Notification, and therefore
                    invokes all current and relevant regulations.

                    Nigel

                    On Sat, May 9, 2009 10:59 am, Ronald Klick wrote:
                    > Greetings to
                    everyone,
                    >  
                    > I have a further question. In my
                    case, I am not able to forecast ahead to
                    > set dates to be
                    > published in our local newsletter. I therefore post an announcement
                    on our
                    > local groups
                    > email list. I have been told that
                    this constitutes sufficient notice that
                    > this can then be
                    considered an "official" practice for which I can submit
                    > scores for Royal Rounds and
                    > IKAC Rounds. Does this then
                    also mean it is covered as an official
                    > practice for SCA
                    > insurance? I am a warranted marshal in the East Kingdom, and I have
                    a
                    > warranted
                    > children's officer present when I run kids
                    IKAC rounds. 
                    >  
                    > Osmond de Berwic
                    >

                    > --- On Sat, 5/9/09, obsidian@... <obsidian@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    From: obsidian@...
                    <obsidian@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] waivers
                    > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Saturday, May 9,
                    2009, 5:29 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Greetings
                    >
                    > ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                    > the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple
                    practice,
                    > and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at
                    local practices can,
                    > of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards,
                    waivers, whatever; there is no
                    > requirement NOT to use them
                    either; but generally I think folks would
                    > think that sort of
                    thing much more officious than need be for a simple
                    > practice.
                    Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a seperate
                    >
                    waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event, which
                    leads
                    > to part two...
                    >
                    > ----- Regarding
                    Gladius' question about
                    > insurance. If a practice is officially
                    announced at a regular meeting,
                    > and/or if it is published in a
                    recognized Scadian publication such as a
                    > local newsletter or
                    whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                    > "event",
                    and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                    > circumstances,
                    the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if the
                    > kingdom
                    in which this takes places has recognized and warranted TAMs - I
                    >
                    think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                    >
                    Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of
                    us
                    > that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our
                    area, what
                    > can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to
                    someone's backyard or
                    > a local range and practice to their hearts
                    content - without involving the
                    > SCA as such by announcing or
                    advertising it in a formal sense within SCA
                    > venues or media. So,
                    the case that Gladius discusses (and by extension,
                    > what Lorelei
                    is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                    > liability.
                    The presence of a warranted marshal does not create liability
                    > as
                    such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and could be
                    > implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing up
                    in a
                    > regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a
                    practice on
                    > such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your
                    shire newsletter,
                    > does create an official SCA venue, and under
                    that circumstance, all
                    > relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations
                    are in force.
                    >
                    > Nigel
                    >
                    > On Fri, May
                    8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                    >> Gentlemen &
                    Ladies,
                    >> >
                    >> I have a relevant
                    >
                    question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                    >> who
                    holds
                    > practices on their own property, if they have
                    participants
                    >> sign
                    > a waiver and have a marshal on
                    hand to inspect equipment and run
                    >>
                    > the line, are
                    these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> >
                    >>
                    >>>Greetings Dalton,
                    >>>
                    >>>We have
                    a regular archery practice at my home in
                    > North Carolina -
                    >>> Atlantia.
                    >>>I maintain good
                    > range
                    safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                    >>>goofing-around
                    > off the range (fair amount on the
                    sidelines
                    >>>*smile*).We do
                    > keep track
                    >>>of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                    >
                    need for any kind of
                    >>>waiver. I imagine from a
                    liability
                    > perspective, that might change if
                    >>>
                    someone
                    >>>tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a
                    klutz.
                    >>>
                    >>>Lorelei
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M.
                    Eastern Daylight
                    > Time,
                    >>><mailto:ice.
                    tiger%40shaw. ca>ice.tiger@shaw. ca
                    > writes:
                    >>>
                    >>>Good day to the list,
                    >>>We
                    > are having a discussion in our area about
                    waivers and sign in sheets
                    >>>for archery practice. My
                    question is, do you require either or
                    > both for
                    >>>archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                    > know how things
                    >>>are done in
                    >>>difeerent
                    > areas/Kingdoms.
                    >>>Dalton
                    >>>
                    >>>Lorelei
                    >>>********** ****A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See
                    yours in
                    > just 2
                    >>> easy
                    >>>steps!
                    >>>(<http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/
                    100126575x122132 2931x1201367171/
                    >>> aol?redir= http://www.
                    freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072&
                    >>>
                    hmpgID=115& bcd>http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122132
                    >>> 2931x1201367171/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport
                    >>> .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072& hmpgID=115& bcd
                    >>>=May5509Avgfooter NO115)
                    >>>
                    >>>[Non-text
                    > portions of this message have been
                    removed]
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    > --
                    > "Ausculta,
                    > feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii
                    dispensans non fundamentum pro
                    > formula administrationis
                    est."
                    > -
                    > http://web.raex. com/~obsidian/ regindex.
                    html
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >

                    >


                    --
                    "Ausculta, feminae novae in
                    lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non fundamentum pro formula
                    administrationis est."
                    -
                    http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jameswolfden
                    I would recommend that any branch marshall read the Society Seneschal Handbook even if you are not intending on ever being a seneschal. It will give great
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I would recommend that any branch marshall read the Society Seneschal Handbook even if you are not intending on ever being a seneschal. It will give great insight into how our game is played behind the scenes.

                      Your group Seneschal must know that the event is occurring, it must be publicized to the group (this can be electronically), and you must conform to Society/Kingdom laws.

                      If you can, plan a regular scheduled practise with the option that it could be cancelled.

                      In Service,
                      James



                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Ronald Klick <osmond_de_berwic@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Greetings to everyone,
                      >  
                      > I have a further question. In my case, I am not able to forecast ahead to set dates to be
                      > published in our local newsletter. I therefore post an announcement on our local groups
                      > email list. I have been told that this constitutes sufficient notice that this can then be considered an "official" practice for which I can submit scores for Royal Rounds and
                      > IKAC Rounds. Does this then also mean it is covered as an official practice for SCA
                      > insurance? I am a warranted marshal in the East Kingdom, and I have a warranted
                      > children's officer present when I run kids IKAC rounds. 
                      >  
                      > Osmond de Berwic
                      >
                      > --- On Sat, 5/9/09, obsidian@... <obsidian@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: obsidian@... <obsidian@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] waivers
                      > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 5:29 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Greetings
                      >
                      > ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                      > the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple practice,
                      > and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local practices can,
                      > of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever; there is no
                      > requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
                      > think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a simple
                      > practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a seperate
                      > waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event, which leads
                      > to part two...
                      >
                      > ----- Regarding Gladius' question about
                      > insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular meeting,
                      > and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such as a
                      > local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                      > "event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                      > circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if the
                      > kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted TAMs - I
                      > think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                      > Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
                      > that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our area, what
                      > can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
                      > a local range and practice to their hearts content - without involving the
                      > SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense within SCA
                      > venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by extension,
                      > what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                      > liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create liability
                      > as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and could be
                      > implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing up in a
                      > regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a practice on
                      > such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire newsletter,
                      > does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
                      > relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.
                      >
                      > Nigel
                      >
                      > On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                      > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                      > > >
                      > > I have a relevant
                      > question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                      > > who holds
                      > practices on their own property, if they have participants
                      > > sign
                      > a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
                      > >
                      > the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >>Greetings Dalton,
                      > >>
                      > >>We have a regular archery practice at my home in
                      > North Carolina -
                      > >> Atlantia.
                      > >>I maintain good
                      > range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                      > >>goofing-around
                      > off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
                      > >>*smile*).We do
                      > keep track
                      > >>of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                      > need for any kind of
                      > >>waiver. I imagine from a liability
                      > perspective, that might change if
                      > >> someone
                      > >>tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
                      > >>
                      > >>Lorelei
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
                      > Time,
                      > >><mailto:ice. tiger%40shaw. ca>ice.tiger@shaw. ca
                      > writes:
                      > >>
                      > >>Good day to the list,
                      > >>We
                      > are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
                      > >>for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
                      > both for
                      > >>archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                      > know how things
                      > >>are done in
                      > >>difeerent
                      > areas/Kingdoms.
                      > >>Dalton
                      > >>
                      > >>Lorelei
                      > >>********** ****A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                      > just 2
                      > >> easy
                      > >>steps!
                      > >>(<http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122132 2931x1201367171/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072& hmpgID=115& bcd>http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122132 2931x1201367171/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072& hmpgID=115& bcd
                      > >>=May5509Avgfooter NO115)
                      > >>
                      > >>[Non-text
                      > portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > --
                      > "Ausculta,
                      > feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non fundamentum pro
                      > formula administrationis est."
                      > -
                      > http://web.raex. com/~obsidian/ regindex. html
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Carolus
                      Two items: 1) An event need not be published to be covered by insurance - all SCA sponsored activities are covered. See the Seneschal s Handbook, pg 22 et al.
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Two items:
                        1) An event need not be published to be covered by insurance - all
                        SCA sponsored activities are covered. See the Seneschal's Handbook,
                        pg 22 et al. This is a change from older rules
                        2) The signing of a waiver cannot be used to imply liability. This
                        is an urban myth. Waivers will not prevent lawsuits, they only make
                        them easier to win. The waiver is similar to the informed consent
                        form one signs at a doctor's office - is says you know the risks and
                        accept them willingly. The only difference in having a waiver or not
                        is that if no waiver is required it can be argued that the event
                        organizer(s) knew of the danger and concealed it thus making it
                        harder to win a suit.

                        That said, when I ran archery for Caid I asked for corporate opinion
                        and was told no waivers needed at archery practice.

                        Carolus
                        former Seneschal who reads the current handbooks


                        At 02:29 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:


                        >Greetings
                        >
                        >----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                        >the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple practice,
                        >and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local practices can,
                        >of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever; there is no
                        >requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
                        >think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a simple
                        >practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a seperate
                        >waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event, which leads
                        >to part two...
                        >
                        >----- Regarding Gladius' question about
                        >insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular meeting,
                        >and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such as a
                        >local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                        >"event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                        >circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if the
                        >kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted TAMs - I
                        >think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                        >Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
                        >that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our area, what
                        >can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
                        >a local range and practice to their hearts content - without involving the
                        >SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense within SCA
                        >venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by extension,
                        >what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                        >liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create liability
                        >as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and could be
                        >implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing up in a
                        >regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a practice on
                        >such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire newsletter,
                        >does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
                        >relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.
                        >
                        >Nigel
                        >
                        >On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                        > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                        > > >
                        > > I have a relevant
                        >question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                        > > who holds
                        >practices on their own property, if they have participants
                        > > sign
                        >a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
                        > >
                        >the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >>Greetings Dalton,
                        > >>
                        > >>We have a regular archery practice at my home in
                        >North Carolina -
                        > >> Atlantia.
                        > >>I maintain good
                        >range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                        > >>goofing-around
                        >off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
                        > >>*smile*).We do
                        >keep track
                        > >>of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                        >need for any kind of
                        > >>waiver. I imagine from a liability
                        >perspective, that might change if
                        > >> someone
                        > >>tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
                        > >>
                        > >>Lorelei
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
                        >Time,
                        > >><mailto:ice.tiger%40shaw.ca>ice.tiger@...
                        >writes:
                        > >>
                        > >>Good day to the list,
                        > >>We
                        >are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
                        > >>for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
                        >both for
                        > >>archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                        >know how things
                        > >>are done in
                        > >>difeerent
                        >areas/Kingdoms.
                        > >>Dalton
                        > >>
                        > >>Lorelei
                        > >>**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                        >just 2
                        > >> easy
                        > >>steps!
                        > >>(<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/ao
                        > l?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd>http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
                        > >>=May5509AvgfooterNO115)
                        > >>
                        > >>[Non-text
                        >portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        >removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >--
                        >"Ausculta,
                        >feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non fundamentum pro
                        >formula administrationis est."
                        >-
                        >http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html
                        >
                        >
                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >------------------------------------
                        >
                        >--
                        >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >No virus found in this incoming message.
                        >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        >Version: 8.5.323 / Virus Database: 270.12.22/2105 - Release Date:
                        >05/08/09 11:43:00
                      • James of the Lake
                        With regard to (1), the Caid Seneschal s Handbook, 8th ed., p. 20, states, however that a practice must be sponsored by an SCA branch, registered with the
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          With regard to (1), the Caid Seneschal's Handbook, 8th ed., p. 20,
                          states, however that a practice must be sponsored by an SCA branch,
                          registered with the group seneschal and publicized to at least to the
                          members of that branch and open to any of them to be insured.
                          Publication in a branch newsletter is one way of meeting the
                          "publicized" and invitational requirements and implies branch
                          sponsorship and seneschal approval, especially for regular practices
                          over an indefinite periods.

                          James

                          On May 9, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Carolus wrote:

                          > Two items:
                          > 1) An event need not be published to be covered by insurance - all
                          > SCA sponsored activities are covered. See the Seneschal's Handbook,
                          > pg 22 et al. This is a change from older rules
                          > 2) The signing of a waiver cannot be used to imply liability. This
                          > is an urban myth. Waivers will not prevent lawsuits, they only make
                          > them easier to win. The waiver is similar to the informed consent
                          > form one signs at a doctor's office - is says you know the risks and
                          > accept them willingly. The only difference in having a waiver or not
                          > is that if no waiver is required it can be argued that the event
                          > organizer(s) knew of the danger and concealed it thus making it
                          > harder to win a suit.
                          >
                          > That said, when I ran archery for Caid I asked for corporate opinion
                          > and was told no waivers needed at archery practice.
                          >
                          > Carolus
                          > former Seneschal who reads the current handbooks
                          >
                          >
                          > At 02:29 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >> Greetings
                          >>
                          >> ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                          >> the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple
                          >> practice,
                          >> and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local
                          >> practices can,
                          >> of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever;
                          >> there is no
                          >> requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
                          >> think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a
                          >> simple
                          >> practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a
                          >> seperate
                          >> waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event,
                          >> which leads
                          >> to part two...
                          >>
                          >> ----- Regarding Gladius' question about
                          >> insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular
                          >> meeting,
                          >> and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such
                          >> as a
                          >> local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                          >> "event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                          >> circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if
                          >> the
                          >> kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted
                          >> TAMs - I
                          >> think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                          >> Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
                          >> that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our
                          >> area, what
                          >> can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
                          >> a local range and practice to their hearts content - without
                          >> involving the
                          >> SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense
                          >> within SCA
                          >> venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by
                          >> extension,
                          >> what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                          >> liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create
                          >> liability
                          >> as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and
                          >> could be
                          >> implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing
                          >> up in a
                          >> regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a
                          >> practice on
                          >> such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire
                          >> newsletter,
                          >> does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
                          >> relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.
                          >>
                          >> Nigel
                          >>
                          >> On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                          >>> Gentlemen & Ladies,
                          >>>>
                          >>> I have a relevant
                          >> question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                          >>> who holds
                          >> practices on their own property, if they have participants
                          >>> sign
                          >> a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
                          >>>
                          >> the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>
                          >>>> Greetings Dalton,
                          >>>>
                          >>>> We have a regular archery practice at my home in
                          >> North Carolina -
                          >>>> Atlantia.
                          >>>> I maintain good
                          >> range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                          >>>> goofing-around
                          >> off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
                          >>>> *smile*).We do
                          >> keep track
                          >>>> of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                          >> need for any kind of
                          >>>> waiver. I imagine from a liability
                          >> perspective, that might change if
                          >>>> someone
                          >>>> tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Lorelei
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
                          >> Time,
                          >>>> <mailto:ice.tiger%40shaw.ca>ice.tiger@...
                          >> writes:
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Good day to the list,
                          >>>> We
                          >> are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
                          >>>> for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
                          >> both for
                          >>>> archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                          >> know how things
                          >>>> are done in
                          >>>> difeerent
                          >> areas/Kingdoms.
                          >>>> Dalton
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Lorelei
                          >>>> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                          >> just 2
                          >>>> easy
                          >>>> steps!
                          >>>> (<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/ao
                          >> l?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?
                          >> sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd>http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/
                          >> 100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://
                          >> www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
                          >>>> =May5509AvgfooterNO115)
                          >>>>
                          >>>> [Non-text
                          >> portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          >> removed]
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> --
                          >> "Ausculta,
                          >> feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non
                          >> fundamentum pro
                          >> formula administrationis est."
                          >> -
                          >> http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> --
                          >> [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> No virus found in this incoming message.
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                          >> Version: 8.5.323 / Virus Database: 270.12.22/2105 - Release Date:
                          >> 05/08/09 11:43:00
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                        • Carolus
                          Note: this is specific to Caid and not to the Society as a whole. As James points out, check your local rules - they may have additional requirements. I will
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 9, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Note: this is specific to Caid and not to the Society as a whole. As
                            James points out, check your local rules - they may have additional
                            requirements.
                            I will note, however that insurance requirements are set at society
                            level, not Kingdom, thus while your kingdom may require specific
                            conditions, they may not really matter in the event of a claim.

                            Carolus

                            At 10:47 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:
                            >With regard to (1), the Caid Seneschal's Handbook, 8th ed., p. 20,
                            >states, however that a practice must be sponsored by an SCA branch,
                            >registered with the group seneschal and publicized to at least to the
                            >members of that branch and open to any of them to be insured.
                            >Publication in a branch newsletter is one way of meeting the
                            >"publicized" and invitational requirements and implies branch
                            >sponsorship and seneschal approval, especially for regular practices
                            >over an indefinite periods.
                            >
                            > James
                            >
                            >On May 9, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Carolus wrote:
                            >
                            > > Two items:
                            > > 1) An event need not be published to be covered by insurance - all
                            > > SCA sponsored activities are covered. See the Seneschal's Handbook,
                            > > pg 22 et al. This is a change from older rules
                            > > 2) The signing of a waiver cannot be used to imply liability. This
                            > > is an urban myth. Waivers will not prevent lawsuits, they only make
                            > > them easier to win. The waiver is similar to the informed consent
                            > > form one signs at a doctor's office - is says you know the risks and
                            > > accept them willingly. The only difference in having a waiver or not
                            > > is that if no waiver is required it can be argued that the event
                            > > organizer(s) knew of the danger and concealed it thus making it
                            > > harder to win a suit.
                            > >
                            > > That said, when I ran archery for Caid I asked for corporate opinion
                            > > and was told no waivers needed at archery practice.
                            > >
                            > > Carolus
                            > > former Seneschal who reads the current handbooks
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > At 02:29 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >> Greetings
                            > >>
                            > >> ----- Regarding waivers and sign-ins generally: in
                            > >> the Midrealm, there is no requirement to use waivers at a simple
                            > >> practice,
                            > >> and it isn't done, normally. Individual marshals at local
                            > >> practices can,
                            > >> of course, use sign-in sheets, scorecards, waivers, whatever;
                            > >> there is no
                            > >> requirement NOT to use them either; but generally I think folks would
                            > >> think that sort of thing much more officious than need be for a
                            > >> simple
                            > >> practice. Bear in mind that, as far as the overall SCA goes, a
                            > >> seperate
                            > >> waiver for an archery range isn't required even for an event,
                            > >> which leads
                            > >> to part two...
                            > >>
                            > >> ----- Regarding Gladius' question about
                            > >> insurance. If a practice is officially announced at a regular
                            > >> meeting,
                            > >> and/or if it is published in a recognized Scadian publication such
                            > >> as a
                            > >> local newsletter or whatnot, then the practice is regarded as an
                            > >> "event", and insurance applies, I believe. And, other such
                            > >> circumstances, the presence of a warranted marshal is required (if
                            > >> the
                            > >> kingdom in which this takes places has recognized and warranted
                            > >> TAMs - I
                            > >> think all kingdoms do, now, ne ce pas?). This is why, when I was
                            > >> Archer-General, if someone came to me and said "there's a group of us
                            > >> that would like to practice, but there are no marshals in our
                            > >> area, what
                            > >> can we do?" I would advise them simply to go to someone's backyard or
                            > >> a local range and practice to their hearts content - without
                            > >> involving the
                            > >> SCA as such by announcing or advertising it in a formal sense
                            > >> within SCA
                            > >> venues or media. So, the case that Gladius discusses (and by
                            > >> extension,
                            > >> what Lorelei is getting at) is - a sign-in sheet does not create
                            > >> liability. The presence of a warranted marshal does not create
                            > >> liability
                            > >> as such. Requiring the signing of a waiver is a grey area, and
                            > >> could be
                            > >> implied to apply a liability if you wanted to argue it. Standing
                            > >> up in a
                            > >> regular meeting and announcing that you are going to hold a
                            > >> practice on
                            > >> such-and-such a day, or publishing said info in your shire
                            > >> newsletter,
                            > >> does create an official SCA venue, and under that circumstance, all
                            > >> relevant kingdom and SCA Inc. regulations are in force.
                            > >>
                            > >> Nigel
                            > >>
                            > >> On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:51 pm, James Koch wrote:
                            > >>> Gentlemen & Ladies,
                            > >>>>
                            > >>> I have a relevant
                            > >> question. Given the case of someone like Lorelei
                            > >>> who holds
                            > >> practices on their own property, if they have participants
                            > >>> sign
                            > >> a waiver and have a marshal on hand to inspect equipment and run
                            > >>>
                            > >> the line, are these people covered by the SCA's insurance?
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>>> Greetings Dalton,
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> We have a regular archery practice at my home in
                            > >> North Carolina -
                            > >>>> Atlantia.
                            > >>>> I maintain good
                            > >> range safety, do bow inspections, and keep the
                            > >>>> goofing-around
                            > >> off the range (fair amount on the sidelines
                            > >>>> *smile*).We do
                            > >> keep track
                            > >>>> of who was at practice, but we've never felt the
                            > >> need for any kind of
                            > >>>> waiver. I imagine from a liability
                            > >> perspective, that might change if
                            > >>>> someone
                            > >>>> tripped, fell and tried to sue me for being a klutz.
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Lorelei
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> In a message dated 5/8/2009 6:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight
                            > >> Time,
                            > >>>> <mailto:ice.tiger%40shaw.ca>ice.tiger@...
                            > >> writes:
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Good day to the list,
                            > >>>> We
                            > >> are having a discussion in our area about waivers and sign in sheets
                            > >>>> for archery practice. My question is, do you require either or
                            > >> both for
                            > >>>> archery practices in your home area? I am curious to
                            > >> know how things
                            > >>>> are done in
                            > >>>> difeerent
                            > >> areas/Kingdoms.
                            > >>>> Dalton
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Lorelei
                            > >>>> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                            > >> just 2
                            > >>>> easy
                            > >>>> steps!
                            > >>>>
                            > (<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/ao>>
                            > l?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?
                            > >> sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd>http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/
                            > >> 100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://
                            > >> www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
                            > >>>> =May5509AvgfooterNO115)
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> [Non-text
                            > >> portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > >> removed]
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> --
                            > >> "Ausculta,
                            > >> feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii dispensans non
                            > >> fundamentum pro
                            > >> formula administrationis est."
                            > >> -
                            > >> http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> ------------------------------------
                            > >>
                            > >> --
                            > >> [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                            > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            > >> Version: 8.5.323 / Virus Database: 270.12.22/2105 - Release Date:
                            > >> 05/08/09 11:43:00
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
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                            >
                            >
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                            >
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                            >05/08/09 11:43:00
                          • James of the Lake
                            ... Not when the Society seneschal specifically delegates relevant rule- making authority to the kingdom seneschals and that said seneschals (as well as local
                            Message 13 of 27 , May 9, 2009
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                              > On May 9, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Carolus wrote:
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> I will note, however that insurance requirements are set at society
                              >> level, not Kingdom, thus while your kingdom may require specific
                              >> conditions, they may not really matter in the event of a claim.
                              >>


                              Not when the Society seneschal specifically delegates relevant rule-
                              making authority to the kingdom seneschals and that said seneschals
                              (as well as local branch seneschals) are specifically legal agents of
                              the Society.

                              However, Carolus and I have indeed been referring to our direct
                              experiences in Caid over a number of years. I find it easier to cite
                              our kingdom's seneschal's handbook and relate it to my experience.
                              Probably since I am not a lawyer, I sometimes find the Society
                              handbook somewhat vague on specifics.

                              James
                            • Carolus
                              Actually, in this instance authority cannot be delegated. Insurance policies are governed by contract law and exist between the issuer and the policyholder
                              Message 14 of 27 , May 9, 2009
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                                Actually, in this instance authority cannot be delegated. Insurance
                                policies are governed by contract law and exist between the issuer
                                and the policyholder (in this case the SCA,Inc.) What the Society
                                Seneschal can delegate is the authority to set rules as to what
                                constitutes an SCA sanctioned event in a local area. Obviously, if
                                the local rules for sanctioning an event are stricter than society
                                standards, the event will not be insured due to the terms of the
                                policy but we cannot set conditions for insurability on our own.
                                Carolus

                                At 11:58 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:

                                > > On May 9, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Carolus wrote:
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> I will note, however that insurance requirements are set at society
                                > >> level, not Kingdom, thus while your kingdom may require specific
                                > >> conditions, they may not really matter in the event of a claim.
                                > >>
                                >
                                >
                                >Not when the Society seneschal specifically delegates relevant rule-
                                >making authority to the kingdom seneschals and that said seneschals
                                >(as well as local branch seneschals) are specifically legal agents of
                                >the Society.
                                >
                                >However, Carolus and I have indeed been referring to our direct
                                >experiences in Caid over a number of years. I find it easier to cite
                                >our kingdom's seneschal's handbook and relate it to my experience.
                                >Probably since I am not a lawyer, I sometimes find the Society
                                >handbook somewhat vague on specifics.
                                >
                                > James
                              • James of the Lake
                                ... I don t agree. If the local rules were LOOSER than what the terms of the policy requires, then the event would not be covered if these rules did not
                                Message 15 of 27 , May 9, 2009
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                                  On May 9, 2009, at 1:56 PM, Carolus wrote:

                                  > Obviously, if
                                  > the local rules for sanctioning an event are stricter than society
                                  > standards, the event will not be insured due to the terms of the
                                  > policy but we cannot set conditions for insurability on our own.
                                  >

                                  I don't agree. If the local rules were LOOSER than what the terms of
                                  the policy requires, then the event would not be covered if these
                                  rules did not comply with the terms of the insurer's contract, but
                                  additional rules that still fell within the scope of the contract
                                  should not negate it.

                                  Specifically, within the context of this topic on waivers, Society
                                  Seneschal's Handbook, October 2005 ed. (the latest), p. 5, paragraph
                                  X.A.3. "Individual Kingdoms or site owners may impose additional or
                                  more stringent restrictions at their discretion" as to when waivers
                                  are required.

                                  James
                                • obsidian@raex.com
                                  Correct, waivers cannot negate the possibility of being sued. But customary SCA practice for a very long while has been to provide a paper trail for informed
                                  Message 16 of 27 , May 9, 2009
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                                    Correct, waivers cannot negate the possibility of being sued. But
                                    customary SCA practice for a very long while has been to provide a paper
                                    trail for informed consent, and that is the sense in which I understood
                                    the original query.

                                    Nigel

                                    On Sat, May 9, 2009 12:15
                                    pm, Carolus wrote:
                                    > Two items:
                                    > 1) An event need not be
                                    published to be covered by insurance - all
                                    > SCA sponsored
                                    activities are covered. See the Seneschal's Handbook,
                                    > pg 22 et
                                    al. This is a change from older rules
                                    > 2) The signing of a
                                    waiver cannot be used to imply liability. This
                                    > is an urban
                                    myth. Waivers will not prevent lawsuits, they only make
                                    > them
                                    easier to win. The waiver is similar to the informed consent
                                    >
                                    form one signs at a doctor's office - is says you know the risks and
                                    > accept them willingly. The only difference in having a waiver or
                                    not
                                    > is that if no waiver is required it can be argued that the
                                    event
                                    > organizer(s) knew of the danger and concealed it thus
                                    making it
                                    > harder to win a suit.
                                    >
                                    > That said,
                                    when I ran archery for Caid I asked for corporate opinion
                                    > and
                                    was told no waivers needed at archery practice.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Carolus
                                    > former Seneschal who reads the current handbooks
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > At 02:29 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:

                                    --
                                    "Ausculta, feminae novae in lacunis recumbens gladii
                                    dispensans non fundamentum pro formula administrationis est."
                                    -
                                    http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/regindex.html


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Carolus
                                    True, they may set more stringent regulations in terms of society operations but they may NOT change the terms of a contract with a third party and this is
                                    Message 17 of 27 , May 9, 2009
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                                      True, they may set more stringent regulations in terms of society
                                      operations but they may NOT change the terms of a contract with a
                                      third party and this is where the insurability of an event comes in -
                                      it is in the contract between the SCA, Inc. and the insurance
                                      company, the kingdom has no standing. So while we may set more
                                      stringent regulations as to what constitutes a sanctioned event we
                                      cannot change the terms of the insurance contract. The effect is the
                                      same but the mechanism is different and in terms of contract law the
                                      mechanism is everything.
                                      Carolus

                                      At 02:40 PM 5/9/2009, you wrote:

                                      >On May 9, 2009, at 1:56 PM, Carolus wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Obviously, if
                                      > > the local rules for sanctioning an event are stricter than society
                                      > > standards, the event will not be insured due to the terms of the
                                      > > policy but we cannot set conditions for insurability on our own.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >I don't agree. If the local rules were LOOSER than what the terms of
                                      >the policy requires, then the event would not be covered if these
                                      >rules did not comply with the terms of the insurer's contract, but
                                      >additional rules that still fell within the scope of the contract
                                      >should not negate it.
                                      >
                                      >Specifically, within the context of this topic on waivers, Society
                                      >Seneschal's Handbook, October 2005 ed. (the latest), p. 5, paragraph
                                      >X.A.3. "Individual Kingdoms or site owners may impose additional or
                                      >more stringent restrictions at their discretion" as to when waivers
                                      >are required.
                                      >
                                      > James
                                    • James Koch
                                      Gentlemen & Ladies, ... For a number of years now we have been seeing discussions about new shoot formats. Now we are also seeing discussions about new shoots
                                      Message 18 of 27 , May 25, 2009
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                                        Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                        >
                                        For a number of years now we have been seeing discussions about new
                                        shoot formats. Now we are also seeing discussions about new shoots
                                        for this upcoming Pennsic. I have a rudimentary idea. Why not hold
                                        a Champion Of The Known World shoot at this coming Pennsic. Any
                                        archer can participate with one condition to be related later. There
                                        will be two winners. One for hand bow and one for cross bow. Each
                                        winner will be awarded a trophy of some sort. The sort of belt that
                                        prize fighters wear would be cool. The condition would be that the
                                        participants would all agree that if they won, they would attend and
                                        host a similar shoot the following year at Estrella or Gulf Wars
                                        where they would defend their title against all comers.
                                        >
                                        So let's discuss all the logistics and similar issues entailed.
                                        >
                                        Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                      • James of the Lake
                                        Already been done. At Estrella for some years, then the organizers got better and changed the name to Estrella War Champion. James
                                        Message 19 of 27 , May 25, 2009
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                                          Already been done. At Estrella for some years, then the organizers
                                          got better and changed the name to Estrella War Champion.

                                          James

                                          On May 25, 2009, at 6:55 PM, James Koch wrote:

                                          > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                          >>
                                          > For a number of years now we have been seeing discussions about new
                                          > shoot formats. Now we are also seeing discussions about new shoots
                                          > for this upcoming Pennsic. I have a rudimentary idea. Why not hold
                                          > a Champion Of The Known World shoot at this coming Pennsic. Any
                                          > archer can participate with one condition to be related later. There
                                          > will be two winners. One for hand bow and one for cross bow. Each
                                          > winner will be awarded a trophy of some sort. The sort of belt that
                                          > prize fighters wear would be cool. The condition would be that the
                                          > participants would all agree that if they won, they would attend and
                                          > host a similar shoot the following year at Estrella or Gulf Wars
                                          > where they would defend their title against all comers.
                                          >>
                                          > So let's discuss all the logistics and similar issues entailed.
                                          >>
                                          > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                          >
                                        • James Koch
                                          James, ... Perhaps we can do a similar shoot at Pennsic and another can take place at Gulf Wars. The rules of the shoots could actually be quite different.
                                          Message 20 of 27 , May 26, 2009
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                                            James,
                                            >
                                            Perhaps we can do a similar shoot at Pennsic and another can take
                                            place at Gulf Wars. The rules of the shoots could actually be quite
                                            different. It would be like the Trifecta of SCA archery. A person
                                            could resolve to shoot in all three. Of course the chances of
                                            winning all three in a given year, the triple crown, would be nearly
                                            zero, but it would be worth a try. An archer could figure his
                                            relative rank by a simple percentile average.
                                            >
                                            What are the rules of the Estrella shoot, or does it change from year to year?
                                            >
                                            Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >At 11:01 PM 5/25/2009, you wrote:


                                            >Already been done. At Estrella for some years, then the organizers
                                            >got better and changed the name to Estrella War Champion.
                                            >
                                            >James
                                            >
                                            >On May 25, 2009, at 6:55 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                            > >>
                                            > > For a number of years now we have been seeing discussions about new
                                            > > shoot formats. Now we are also seeing discussions about new shoots
                                            > > for this upcoming Pennsic. I have a rudimentary idea. Why not hold
                                            > > a Champion Of The Known World shoot at this coming Pennsic. Any
                                            > > archer can participate with one condition to be related later. There
                                            > > will be two winners. One for hand bow and one for cross bow. Each
                                            > > winner will be awarded a trophy of some sort. The sort of belt that
                                            > > prize fighters wear would be cool. The condition would be that the
                                            > > participants would all agree that if they won, they would attend and
                                            > > host a similar shoot the following year at Estrella or Gulf Wars
                                            > > where they would defend their title against all comers.
                                            > >>
                                            > > So let's discuss all the logistics and similar issues entailed.
                                            > >>
                                            > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                            > >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • James of the Lake
                                            The Estrella War Archery Champion Tournament (Ewac) consists of three competitions run simultaneously (hand bow, crossbow, youth). Each archer first shoots a
                                            Message 21 of 27 , May 26, 2009
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                                              The Estrella War Archery Champion Tournament (Ewac) consists of three
                                              competitions run simultaneously (hand bow, crossbow, youth). Each
                                              archer first shoots a qualification Royal Round; top 5 archers in
                                              each kingdom for each category advance to the finals, which is an
                                              IKAC. All shot on 60cm FITA targets.

                                              Normally I'd direct you to the treaty page on the Estrella War site
                                              for details, but I see there's no link to the last war this time.

                                              Lots of opportunity to do period-style shooting at other events as
                                              part of an overall SCA-wide championship.

                                              James

                                              On May 26, 2009, at 9:32 PM, James Koch wrote:

                                              > James,
                                              >>
                                              > Perhaps we can do a similar shoot at Pennsic and another can take
                                              > place at Gulf Wars. The rules of the shoots could actually be quite
                                              > different. It would be like the Trifecta of SCA archery. A person
                                              > could resolve to shoot in all three. Of course the chances of
                                              > winning all three in a given year, the triple crown, would be nearly
                                              > zero, but it would be worth a try. An archer could figure his
                                              > relative rank by a simple percentile average.
                                              >>
                                              > What are the rules of the Estrella shoot, or does it change from
                                              > year to year?
                                              >>
                                              > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> At 11:01 PM 5/25/2009, you wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >> Already been done. At Estrella for some years, then the organizers
                                              >> got better and changed the name to Estrella War Champion.
                                              >>
                                              >> James
                                              >>
                                              >> On May 25, 2009, at 6:55 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                              >>
                                              >>> Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                              >>>>
                                              >>> For a number of years now we have been seeing discussions about new
                                              >>> shoot formats. Now we are also seeing discussions about new shoots
                                              >>> for this upcoming Pennsic. I have a rudimentary idea. Why not hold
                                              >>> a Champion Of The Known World shoot at this coming Pennsic. Any
                                              >>> archer can participate with one condition to be related later. There
                                              >>> will be two winners. One for hand bow and one for cross bow. Each
                                              >>> winner will be awarded a trophy of some sort. The sort of belt that
                                              >>> prize fighters wear would be cool. The condition would be that the
                                              >>> participants would all agree that if they won, they would attend and
                                              >>> host a similar shoot the following year at Estrella or Gulf Wars
                                              >>> where they would defend their title against all comers.
                                              >>>>
                                              >>> So let's discuss all the logistics and similar issues entailed.
                                              >>>>
                                              >>> Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                              >>>
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • William Arwemakere
                                              Hmm, I may have to go to an Estrella... Do they still run the Quick and the dead tourney? William Arwemakere On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:22 PM, James of the
                                              Message 22 of 27 , May 27, 2009
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                                                Hmm, I may have to go to an Estrella...

                                                Do they still run the "Quick and the dead" tourney?

                                                William Arwemakere

                                                On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:22 PM, James of the Lake
                                                <jotl2008@...>wrote:

                                                >
                                                >
                                                > The Estrella War Archery Champion Tournament (Ewac) consists of three
                                                > competitions run simultaneously (hand bow, crossbow, youth). Each
                                                > archer first shoots a qualification Royal Round; top 5 archers in
                                                > each kingdom for each category advance to the finals, which is an
                                                > IKAC. All shot on 60cm FITA targets.
                                                >
                                                > Normally I'd direct you to the treaty page on the Estrella War site
                                                > for details, but I see there's no link to the last war this time.
                                                >
                                                > Lots of opportunity to do period-style shooting at other events as
                                                > part of an overall SCA-wide championship.
                                                >
                                                > James
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On May 26, 2009, at 9:32 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > >>
                                                > >
                                                > Recent Activity
                                                >
                                                > - 2
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                                                >
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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • James of the Lake
                                                Dunno. Might have been a side event. The main show is the war point shoot. Three days of novelties with FITA s mostly confined to the practice range. James
                                                Message 23 of 27 , May 27, 2009
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                                                  Dunno. Might have been a side event.

                                                  The main show is the war point shoot. Three days of novelties with
                                                  FITA's mostly confined to the practice range.

                                                  James

                                                  On May 27, 2009, at 12:52 PM, William Arwemakere wrote:

                                                  > Hmm, I may have to go to an Estrella...
                                                  >
                                                  > Do they still run the "Quick and the dead" tourney?
                                                  >
                                                  > William Arwemakere
                                                  >
                                                  > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:22 PM, James of the Lake
                                                  > <jotl2008@...>wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> The Estrella War Archery Champion Tournament (Ewac) consists of three
                                                  >> competitions run simultaneously (hand bow, crossbow, youth). Each
                                                  >> archer first shoots a qualification Royal Round; top 5 archers in
                                                  >> each kingdom for each category advance to the finals, which is an
                                                  >> IKAC. All shot on 60cm FITA targets.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Normally I'd direct you to the treaty page on the Estrella War site
                                                  >> for details, but I see there's no link to the last war this time.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Lots of opportunity to do period-style shooting at other events as
                                                  >> part of an overall SCA-wide championship.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> James
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> On May 26, 2009, at 9:32 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>>>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >> Recent Activity
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                                                  >> _ylg=1/SIG=11314uv3k/**http%3A//brand.yahoo.com/forgood>
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