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Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

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  • Siegfried
    Gladius ... I love the idea of the shoot. You might want to check with the East & Mid KAM s though about doing it during the tryouts. The tryouts aren t
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 2 5:49 AM
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      Gladius ... I love the idea of the shoot. You might want to check
      with the East & Mid KAM's though about doing it during the tryouts.

      The tryouts aren't always 'fully' open. (East is often less open of a
      tryout than the Mid is).

      And I might be concerned about hundreds of folks showing up to try to
      win your most excellent wares, and therefore flooding the tryouts and
      making it harder for the people running the tryouts and trying to
      actually make some tough decisions.

      Siegfried


      On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:57 PM, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
      > Gentlemen & Ladies,
      >  >
      > I earlier offered to make two archer's swords available as prizes for
      > a shoot to be held at Pennsic.  The plan is to offer a falchion and a
      > katzbalger, both of which I have already made.  The falchion will go
      > to the hand bow shooter and the katzbalger to the crossbow shooter
      > with the winning scores.  It recently occurred to me that this shoot
      > could be held during one of the try outs for the champion's shoot
      > teams.  The marshals are already on the range and the range is
      > already closed for the day.  Since the try outs are open to pretty
      > much everyone, this would save having to set up a special shoot on
      > another day.  It would also reward the folks who come out every year
      > to compete on the champions teams.  The scores from the competition
      > could also be used to help select members for the teams.  My idea is
      > to do a simple retreating butt elimination shoot.  You know, like in
      > the movie Robin Hood.  Any thoughts on this?
      >  >
      > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


      --
      ________________________________________________________
      Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
      Barony of Highland Foorde - Kingdom of Atlantia
      Society Combat Archery Marshal
    • James Koch
      Siegfried, ... Thanks for the heads up. I didn t realize that the East Kingdom limited participation. Here in the Mid it s pretty much anyone who wants to
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 2 12:24 PM
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        Siegfried,
        >
        Thanks for the heads up. I didn't realize that the East Kingdom
        limited participation. Here in the Mid it's pretty much anyone who
        wants to try out. I suppose since the champions shoot is so early
        this year it might be better to put it off to the second week when
        there is less of a rush. Can anyone suggest a good day? I assume it
        would be shot after the range closes for points for the day.
        >
        Jim "Gladius"
        >
        >
        >At 08:49 AM 3/2/2009, you wrote:

        >Gladius ... I love the idea of the shoot. You might want to check
        >with the East & Mid KAM's though about doing it during the tryouts.
        >
        >The tryouts aren't always 'fully' open. (East is often less open of a
        >tryout than the Mid is).
        >
        >And I might be concerned about hundreds of folks showing up to try to
        >win your most excellent wares, and therefore flooding the tryouts and
        >making it harder for the people running the tryouts and trying to
        >actually make some tough decisions.
        >
        >Siegfried
        >
        >On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:57 PM, James Koch
        ><<mailto:alchem%40en.com>alchem@...> wrote:
        > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
        > > >
        > > I earlier offered to make two archer's swords available as prizes for
        > > a shoot to be held at Pennsic. The plan is to offer a falchion and a
        > > katzbalger, both of which I have already made. The falchion will go
        > > to the hand bow shooter and the katzbalger to the crossbow shooter
        > > with the winning scores. It recently occurred to me that this shoot
        > > could be held during one of the try outs for the champion's shoot
        > > teams. The marshals are already on the range and the range is
        > > already closed for the day. Since the try outs are open to pretty
        > > much everyone, this would save having to set up a special shoot on
        > > another day. It would also reward the folks who come out every year
        > > to compete on the champions teams. The scores from the competition
        > > could also be used to help select members for the teams. My idea is
        > > to do a simple retreating butt elimination shoot. You know, like in
        > > the movie Robin Hood. Any thoughts on this?
        > > >
        > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        >
        >--
        >________________________________________________________
        >Siegfried Sebastian Faust - <http://crossbows.biz/>http://crossbows.biz/
        >Barony of Highland Foorde - Kingdom of Atlantia
        >Society Combat Archery Marshal
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • James Koch
        Gentlemen & Ladies, ... I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 11, 2009
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          Gentlemen & Ladies,
          >
          I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
          set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
          advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
          butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
          tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
          math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
          remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
          selecting 6 projectiles.
          >
          I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
          have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
          for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
          different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
          sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
          >
          Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
          1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
          the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
          shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
          same target.
          2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
          hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
          which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
          3) The shoot is un-timed.
          4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
          participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
          remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
          the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
          did not make a hit are eliminated.
          5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
          to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
          target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
          keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
          eliminated from the competition.
          6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
          made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
          re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
          competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
          remaining from the previous round.
          7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
          winning crossbow shooter remain.
          >
          Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        • John edgerton
          Sounds like fun. ... What about pass-throughs? Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it just be a blank face? ... If an archer does
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 11, 2009
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            Sounds like fun.

            > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
            > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
            > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
            >

            What about pass-throughs?
            Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it
            just be a blank face?

            > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
            > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
            > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
            > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
            > eliminated from the competition.
            >

            If an archer does not find all of their misses right away (or after a
            set time limit), they should have to wait for the end of the
            competition to search for them.

            > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
            > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
            > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
            > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
            > remaining from the previous round.
            >

            The rules do not state that the butt is going to be moved further
            away after each end. But, I take it that is the intention.

            > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
            > winning crossbow shooter remain.
            >

            What happens if after X number of ends, you have two archers and two
            crossbow shooters remaining, and then they all miss with their
            remaining arrows/bolts?

            Jon

            On Jul 11, 2009, at 8:39 PM, James Koch wrote:

            >
            >
            > Gentlemen & Ladies,
            > >
            > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
            > set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
            > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
            > butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
            > tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
            > math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
            > remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
            > selecting 6 projectiles.
            > >
            > I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
            > have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
            > for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
            > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
            > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
            > >
            > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
            > 1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
            > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
            > shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
            > same target.
            > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
            > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
            > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
            > 3) The shoot is un-timed.
            > 4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
            > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
            > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
            > the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
            > did not make a hit are eliminated.
            > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
            > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
            > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
            > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
            > eliminated from the competition.
            > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
            > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
            > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
            > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
            > remaining from the previous round.
            > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
            > winning crossbow shooter remain.
            > >
            > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kelly
            start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is lost and cannot be used in the following rounds. that it ? ... From: James Koch To:
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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              start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is "lost" and cannot be used in the following rounds.

              that it ?
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: James Koch
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 11:39 PM
              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition





              Gentlemen & Ladies,
              >
              I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
              set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
              advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
              butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
              tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
              math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
              remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
              selecting 6 projectiles.
              >
              I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
              have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
              for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
              different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
              sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
              >
              Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
              1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
              the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
              shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
              same target.
              2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
              hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
              which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
              3) The shoot is un-timed.
              4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
              participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
              remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
              the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
              did not make a hit are eliminated.
              5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
              to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
              target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
              keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
              eliminated from the competition.
              6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
              made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
              re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
              competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
              remaining from the previous round.
              7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
              winning crossbow shooter remain.
              >
              Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Siegfried
              Sounds good. Sounds simple. I ve seen a similar thing done before. But you need to move everyone back (or the target back) at each phase. Else you can be
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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                Sounds good. Sounds simple. I've seen a similar thing done before.

                But you need to move everyone back (or the target back) at each phase.
                Else you can be sitting there for a LONG LONG time while noone misses
                until exhaustion sets in.

                And if you start it nice and close, you can get people feeling good
                and having fun with it, as the attrition slowly begins. (30yd-ish for
                the first one? Assuming a 48" Saunders matt?) If you assume that
                it's moved back 10+yd-ish each time, then after a few rounds you'll
                whittle it down. And it will become quite the spectator sport with
                those knocked out watching and enjoying.

                A couple things to consider also, because someone will ask:

                1) Pass Throughs - Hopefully not an issue once at distance and if you
                choose a new-er matt.

                2) How do you count bounceoffs (or crossbow bolts that cartwheel and
                hit flat, etc). If witnessed are they a hit? Or must it stick?

                3) Deflections? If it hits the end of the matt, and is witnessed,
                does it count?

                4) If EVERYONE misses (or all bows, or all crossbows), how is it
                handled? Do you Just 'do over'? Do you bring the target back closer?

                5) And end-game should perhaps be planned, if you run out of room.
                IE. Assuming you are using the clout range, then at 120yd or so, you
                are going to run out of the ability to move the target farther. If
                you have some better shooters, they 'might' still be hitting it. You
                should at least have a plan in place, either to stay at 'max distance'
                until the randomness has someone fail out. Or to declare a multiple
                winner at that point, or flip a coin, or make people start shooting
                from one foot ;) You hopefully won't run into this, as the
                random-distance issue and stray shots will make people start missing
                earlier, but having an end-game planned in case, would make people
                happier than a random decision at that point.

                Siegfried


                On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 11:39 PM, James Koch<alchem@...> wrote:
                > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                >  >
                > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic.  I have drawn up a
                > set of rules for the contest and have included them below.  Be
                > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                > butt.  I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                > tripod.  This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition.  No
                > math whatsoever on anyone's part.  Even the distances shot will
                > remain unknown and irrelevant.  The only counting required will be in
                > selecting 6 projectiles.
                >  >
                > I have a question for the group.  Are the following rules clear, and
                > have I covered all the bases?  Please understand that I am not asking
                > for improvements or major changes to the competition.  If you think a
                > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                >  >
                > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                > 1)   This competition will award two prizes.  One prize will go to
                > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                > shooter.  Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                > same target.
                > 2)   The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range.  A
                > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                > which fall or bounce back out.  Glances will not be counted as good.
                > 3)   The shoot is un-timed.
                > 4)   Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts.  Each
                > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended.  Participants who hit
                > the target stay in the competition into the next round.  Those who
                > did not make a hit are eliminated.
                > 5)   Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                > target.  These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                > eliminated from the competition.
                > 6)   After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                > re-used.  Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                > remaining from the previous round.
                > 7)   The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                >  >
                > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > --
                > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >



                --
                ________________________________________________________
                Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                Baron of Highland Foorde - Kingdom of Atlantia
              • James Koch
                Jon, ... It s a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a number of issues I hadn t addressed. I was thinking in terms of a saunders matt and
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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                  Jon,
                  >
                  It's a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a
                  number of issues I hadn't addressed. I was thinking in terms of a
                  saunders matt and didn't consider pass throughs. However, just in
                  case I'll add them to the list. I suppose we can add a center mark
                  of sorts to the target face just to help the people who like a hard
                  aiming point. As for the time involved in searching for misses, I
                  don't think this will be a big problem since I expect the shoot to go
                  pretty fast. Of course it will depend on how many people actually
                  decide to compete. If we get 100+ this will be an issue at least in
                  the early rounds. What I can do though is bring along a bunch of
                  those little ground marker flags to show the former locations of the
                  butt. That will make it easier for people who come back later
                  looking for buried projectiles. The butt will definitely be moved
                  back a bit for each new round. Of course this will be left to the
                  marshal. As to the final two participants both missing, that is
                  something which had not occurred to me. I guess we'll then keep the
                  butt where it is and have a sudden death type shoot off where each
                  takes a shot until one hits and the other misses. So when are you
                  making the pilgrimage to Pennsic?
                  >
                  Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


                  >Sounds like fun.
                  >
                  > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                  > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                  > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                  > >
                  >
                  >What about pass-throughs?
                  >Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it
                  >just be a blank face?
                  >
                  > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                  > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                  > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                  > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                  > > eliminated from the competition.
                  > >
                  >
                  >If an archer does not find all of their misses right away (or after a
                  >set time limit), they should have to wait for the end of the
                  >competition to search for them.
                  >
                  > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                  > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                  > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                  > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                  > > remaining from the previous round.
                  > >
                  >
                  >The rules do not state that the butt is going to be moved further
                  >away after each end. But, I take it that is the intention.
                  >
                  > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                  > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                  > >
                  >
                  >What happens if after X number of ends, you have two archers and two
                  >crossbow shooters remaining, and then they all miss with their
                  >remaining arrows/bolts?
                  >
                  >Jon
                  >
                  >On Jul 11, 2009, at 8:39 PM, James Koch wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                  > > >
                  > > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                  > > set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                  > > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                  > > butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                  > > tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                  > > math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                  > > remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                  > > selecting 6 projectiles.
                  > > >
                  > > I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                  > > have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                  > > for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                  > > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                  > > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                  > > >
                  > > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                  > > 1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                  > > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                  > > shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                  > > same target.
                  > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                  > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                  > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                  > > 3) The shoot is un-timed.
                  > > 4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                  > > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                  > > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                  > > the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                  > > did not make a hit are eliminated.
                  > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                  > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                  > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                  > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                  > > eliminated from the competition.
                  > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                  > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                  > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                  > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                  > > remaining from the previous round.
                  > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                  > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                  > > >
                  > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John edgerton
                  If you run out of space to move the target and you have tie scores at that point, you can have the next end at the same distance and the archer closest to the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    If you run out of space to move the target and you have tie scores
                    at that point, you can have the next end at the same distance and the
                    archer closest to the center mark wins. This was a period practice.

                    When will I make it to Pennsic .... when I win the Lottery. ;-)
                    Sounds like a fun competition, I wish I could make it.

                    I just ran a somewhat similar competition at An Tir/West war. I had
                    a series of rings of decreasing size, all shot at the same distance.
                    Each archer had three arrows, only the archers that one arrow hIt
                    inside the ring continued to the next smaller target. It was based
                    on a period Italian competition.

                    Jon

                    On Jul 12, 2009, at 9:05 AM, James Koch wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Jon,
                    > >
                    > It's a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a
                    > number of issues I hadn't addressed. I was thinking in terms of a
                    > saunders matt and didn't consider pass throughs. However, just in
                    > case I'll add them to the list. I suppose we can add a center mark
                    > of sorts to the target face just to help the people who like a hard
                    > aiming point. As for the time involved in searching for misses, I
                    > don't think this will be a big problem since I expect the shoot to go
                    > pretty fast. Of course it will depend on how many people actually
                    > decide to compete. If we get 100+ this will be an issue at least in
                    > the early rounds. What I can do though is bring along a bunch of
                    > those little ground marker flags to show the former locations of the
                    > butt. That will make it easier for people who come back later
                    > looking for buried projectiles. The butt will definitely be moved
                    > back a bit for each new round. Of course this will be left to the
                    > marshal. As to the final two participants both missing, that is
                    > something which had not occurred to me. I guess we'll then keep the
                    > butt where it is and have a sudden death type shoot off where each
                    > takes a shot until one hits and the other misses. So when are you
                    > making the pilgrimage to Pennsic?
                    > >
                    > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                    >
                    > >Sounds like fun.
                    > >
                    > > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                    > > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                    > > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as
                    > good.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >What about pass-throughs?
                    > >Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it
                    > >just be a blank face?
                    > >
                    > > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow
                    > shooters
                    > > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                    > > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for
                    > safe
                    > > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                    > > > eliminated from the competition.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >If an archer does not find all of their misses right away (or after a
                    > >set time limit), they should have to wait for the end of the
                    > >competition to search for them.
                    > >
                    > > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which
                    > has
                    > > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                    > > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                    > > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                    > > > remaining from the previous round.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >The rules do not state that the butt is going to be moved further
                    > >away after each end. But, I take it that is the intention.
                    > >
                    > > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and
                    > one
                    > > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >What happens if after X number of ends, you have two archers and two
                    > >crossbow shooters remaining, and then they all miss with their
                    > >remaining arrows/bolts?
                    > >
                    > >Jon
                    > >
                    > >On Jul 11, 2009, at 8:39 PM, James Koch wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                    > > > >
                    > > > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn
                    > up a
                    > > > set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                    > > > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                    > > > butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                    > > > tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                    > > > math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                    > > > remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will
                    > be in
                    > > > selecting 6 projectiles.
                    > > > >
                    > > > I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear,
                    > and
                    > > > have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not
                    > asking
                    > > > for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you
                    > think a
                    > > > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                    > > > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                    > > > >
                    > > > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                    > > > 1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                    > > > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning
                    > crossbow
                    > > > shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                    > > > same target.
                    > > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                    > > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                    > > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as
                    > good.
                    > > > 3) The shoot is un-timed.
                    > > > 4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                    > > > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                    > > > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                    > > > the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                    > > > did not make a hit are eliminated.
                    > > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow
                    > shooters
                    > > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                    > > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for
                    > safe
                    > > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                    > > > eliminated from the competition.
                    > > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which
                    > has
                    > > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                    > > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                    > > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                    > > > remaining from the previous round.
                    > > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and
                    > one
                    > > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                    > > > >
                    > > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • James McAdams
                    ... We did a combination of these last year as a fundraiser. 3 arrows, and the target moves back. Any arrows that missed the target were lost for future
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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                      John edgerton wrote:

                      >I just ran a somewhat similar competition at An Tir/West war. I had
                      >a series of rings of decreasing size, all shot at the same distance.
                      >Each archer had three arrows, only the archers that one arrow hIt
                      >inside the ring continued to the next smaller target. It was based
                      >on a period Italian competition.
                      >
                      We did a combination of these last year as a fundraiser. 3 arrows,
                      and the target moves back. Any arrows that missed the target were lost
                      for future rounds.
                      The fundraising aspect was that you could re-buy any 'lost' arrows.
                      A couple of generous and competitive archers made this the most
                      successful of a half-dozen fundraisers we did that day.

                      Xavier
                    • Hobbe
                      ... Move the people, not the butt.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The butt will definitely be moved
                        > back a bit for each new round.
                        >

                        Move the people, not the butt.
                      • James Koch
                        Kelly, ... That s it in a nutshell. The rest is all legal mumbo jumbo. ... Jim Koch Gladius The Alchemist ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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                          Kelly,
                          >
                          That's it in a nutshell. The rest is all legal mumbo jumbo.
                          >
                          Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                          >


                          >start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is "lost" and
                          >cannot be used in the following rounds.
                          >
                          >that it ?
                          >----- Original Message -----
                          >From: James Koch
                          >To: <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          >Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 11:39 PM
                          >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition
                          >
                          >Gentlemen & Ladies,
                          > >
                          >I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                          >set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                          >advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                          >butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                          >tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                          >math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                          >remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                          >selecting 6 projectiles.
                          > >
                          >I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                          >have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                          >for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                          >different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                          >sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                          > >
                          >Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                          >1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                          >the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                          >shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                          >same target.
                          >2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                          >hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                          >which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                          >3) The shoot is un-timed.
                          >4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                          >participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                          >remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                          >the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                          >did not make a hit are eliminated.
                          >5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                          >to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                          >target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                          >keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                          >eliminated from the competition.
                          >6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                          >made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                          >re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                          >competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                          >remaining from the previous round.
                          >7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                          >winning crossbow shooter remain.
                          > >
                          >Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • James Koch
                          Hobbe, ... It may be possible to move the people back, if the parallel ranges are closed at that time. I expect to use the existing gates, but until the new
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 12, 2009
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                            Hobbe,
                            >
                            It may be possible to move the people back, if the parallel ranges
                            are closed at that time. I expect to use the existing gates, but
                            until the new ranges are set up, it's hard to say which will work
                            best. Leaving the butt stationary does make finding lost arrows easier.
                            >
                            Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                            >
                            >
                            >At 03:56 PM 7/12/2009, you wrote:


                            >--- In
                            ><mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com,
                            >James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > The butt will definitely be moved
                            > > back a bit for each new round.
                            > >
                            >
                            >Move the people, not the butt.
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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