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Re: The Language of Archery

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  • jameswolfden
    I have heard this too but I am wondering what menée stroke actually means. It seems strange to mix the french and the english at this point. Menée could be
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 11, 2009
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      I have heard this too but I am wondering what menée stroke actually
      means.

      It seems strange to mix the french and the english at this point.
      Menée could be charge or lead which fits in well but not sure how
      stroke fits in.

      I am also wondering what source indicates that this was a Norman
      medieval term at all. I have seen it mainly on websites that just
      matter of factly state it is a hunting term with no further
      explanation.

      James





      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Cian of Storvik"
      <firespiter@...> wrote:
      >
      > It's also been suggested that they were shouting "menee stroke"
      (with
      > an accent over the second to last 'e'). Which was a norman
      medieval
      > term for the trumpet call for assembly used in hunting.
      >
      > I believe the way it was posed is that the marshal of the army
      would
      > have called out "menee stroke" to signal the trumpeters to start
      the
      > assembly call to rouse the troops and prepare them for tossing the
      > baton in the air (signaling that it was on like Donkey Kong), but
      the
      > way a voice carries, it was probably common practice to repeat a
      > command down the line. Much like we do at Pennsic when a hold is
      called.
      >
      > Now, the consonant "M" is termed a soft consonant, and in a
      multiple
      > syllabic phrase, in English, we tend to mute the first part of
      what we
      > are shouting, and put the accent on the end. (Think of
      shouting "Hey
      > You!" <-the H is another soft consonant at the beginning of a
      sentance,
      > and how it would sound to someone a quarter mile away. Especially
      if a
      > hundred of you are screaming on top of one another.
      >
      > So to the french, their front line being a quarter of a mile from
      the
      > front of the English, it may have seemed like the entire army was
      > shouting "nestroque!"
      >
      > The only hole in this theory is that the French would have also
      been
      > familiar with a hunting call of assembly, but because it was
      relative
      > to hunting, maybe they just didn't make the connection.
      >
      > The reality is, we will probably never know what the English were
      > shouting.
      > -Cian
      >
    • Cian of Storvik
      I m just repeating what I d read in one of my archery history books, probably by Soar or Hardy. I don t know any archaic Norman, or know of any period text
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 11, 2009
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        I'm just repeating what I'd read in one of my archery history books,
        probably by Soar or Hardy. I don't know any archaic Norman, or know of
        any period text that would support either word used in an
        archery/military context much less used in combination as an understood
        command or exclamation.
        -Cian
      • jameswolfden
        I find Soar sometimes make comments that add great colour but don t seem to be backed up with any evidence. Hardy often has a source. Even finding the earliest
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 11, 2009
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          I find Soar sometimes make comments that add great colour but don't
          seem to be backed up with any evidence. Hardy often has a source.

          Even finding the earliest explanation for nestroque to be a
          misrepresentation of menee stroke might give us a clue as to whether it
          is a valid explanation.

          James

          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Cian of Storvik" <firespiter@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I'm just repeating what I'd read in one of my archery history books,
          > probably by Soar or Hardy. I don't know any archaic Norman, or know
          of
          > any period text that would support either word used in an
          > archery/military context much less used in combination as an
          understood
          > command or exclamation.
          > -Cian
          >
        • bluecat@neo.rr.com
          Enguerrand de Monstrelet is a period source for the Battle of Agincourt Link: http://www.archive.org/details/chroniclesengue14johngoog This is the text of his
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 24, 2009
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            Enguerrand de Monstrelet is a period source for the Battle of Agincourt

            Link: http://www.archive.org/details/chroniclesengue14johngoog

            This is the text of his chronicles in electronic format

            A borrowed bit of text from a discussion on NetSword is below:

            The author of this account of Agincourt is "Enguerrand de Monstrelet
            (d.1453), governor of Cambrai and supporter of the French crown."
            *(snip)*... He includes a number of interesting details, like the name
            of the commander of the [i]English[/i] archers and the fact that many of
            them had their "hose loose"; which has been attributed to the dysentery
            raging among the English. His passage about Erpingham ordering the
            English archers to open the battle is of sufficient interest that it is
            specifically discussed in Anne Curry's book [b]Agincourt 1415[/i]. The
            author concludes that "Nestroque" was the french rendition of a man with
            a Norfolk accent shouting "Now Strike!".

            Hugh Soar makes his own comments in Vol. 44 of Society for Archer
            Antiquaries in 2001, but that doesn't appear to be available unless you
            are a member

            Link: http://www.societyofarcher-antiquaries.org/publications.htm

            A recent work- 'Cavalry from Hoof to Track' By Roman Johann Jarymowycz,
            Roman Jarymowycz, Donn A. Starry
            at:http://books.google.com/books?id=nQDBUgwGae4C&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=nestroque&source=bl&ots=H69TWboH0L&sig=BjN_ByR8630t4W_K2oRLdV9gtKw&hl=en&ei=57SkSfWFNMe_tgfRmIzKBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA52,M1

            Also says Sir Thomas Erpingham says "Now Strike" on page 51, and while
            footnoted, I cant get to the bibliographic page for the reference.

            Dirk Edward of Frisia
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