Re: The Language of Archery
- I have heard this too but I am wondering what menée stroke actually
It seems strange to mix the french and the english at this point.
Menée could be charge or lead which fits in well but not sure how
stroke fits in.
I am also wondering what source indicates that this was a Norman
medieval term at all. I have seen it mainly on websites that just
matter of factly state it is a hunting term with no further
--- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Cian of Storvik"
> It's also been suggested that they were shouting "menee stroke"
> an accent over the second to last 'e'). Which was a normanmedieval
> term for the trumpet call for assembly used in hunting.would
> I believe the way it was posed is that the marshal of the army
> have called out "menee stroke" to signal the trumpeters to startthe
> assembly call to rouse the troops and prepare them for tossing thethe
> baton in the air (signaling that it was on like Donkey Kong), but
> way a voice carries, it was probably common practice to repeat acalled.
> command down the line. Much like we do at Pennsic when a hold is
> Now, the consonant "M" is termed a soft consonant, and in a
> syllabic phrase, in English, we tend to mute the first part ofwhat we
> are shouting, and put the accent on the end. (Think ofshouting "Hey
> You!" <-the H is another soft consonant at the beginning of asentance,
> and how it would sound to someone a quarter mile away. Especiallyif a
> hundred of you are screaming on top of one another.the
> So to the french, their front line being a quarter of a mile from
> front of the English, it may have seemed like the entire army wasbeen
> shouting "nestroque!"
> The only hole in this theory is that the French would have also
> familiar with a hunting call of assembly, but because it wasrelative
> to hunting, maybe they just didn't make the connection.
> The reality is, we will probably never know what the English were
- I'm just repeating what I'd read in one of my archery history books,
probably by Soar or Hardy. I don't know any archaic Norman, or know of
any period text that would support either word used in an
archery/military context much less used in combination as an understood
command or exclamation.
- I find Soar sometimes make comments that add great colour but don't
seem to be backed up with any evidence. Hardy often has a source.
Even finding the earliest explanation for nestroque to be a
misrepresentation of menee stroke might give us a clue as to whether it
is a valid explanation.
--- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Cian of Storvik" <firespiter@...>
> I'm just repeating what I'd read in one of my archery history books,
> probably by Soar or Hardy. I don't know any archaic Norman, or know
> any period text that would support either word used in anunderstood
> archery/military context much less used in combination as an
> command or exclamation.
- Enguerrand de Monstrelet is a period source for the Battle of Agincourt
This is the text of his chronicles in electronic format
A borrowed bit of text from a discussion on NetSword is below:
The author of this account of Agincourt is "Enguerrand de Monstrelet
(d.1453), governor of Cambrai and supporter of the French crown."
*(snip)*... He includes a number of interesting details, like the name
of the commander of the [i]English[/i] archers and the fact that many of
them had their "hose loose"; which has been attributed to the dysentery
raging among the English. His passage about Erpingham ordering the
English archers to open the battle is of sufficient interest that it is
specifically discussed in Anne Curry's book [b]Agincourt 1415[/i]. The
author concludes that "Nestroque" was the french rendition of a man with
a Norfolk accent shouting "Now Strike!".
Hugh Soar makes his own comments in Vol. 44 of Society for Archer
Antiquaries in 2001, but that doesn't appear to be available unless you
are a member
A recent work- 'Cavalry from Hoof to Track' By Roman Johann Jarymowycz,
Roman Jarymowycz, Donn A. Starry
Also says Sir Thomas Erpingham says "Now Strike" on page 51, and while
footnoted, I cant get to the bibliographic page for the reference.
Dirk Edward of Frisia