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RE: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

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  • Frederick Fenters
    I have not yet spoken with Arwenna and Ian Gourdan, so I have no information at this point. I would have to say that at this point, unless one of those two
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 10, 2008
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      I have not yet spoken with Arwenna and Ian Gourdan, so I have no information
      at this point. I would have to say that at this point, unless one of those
      two has imprinted it or agreed to be quoted that anything is strictly RUMOR
      and needs to be regarded as such. I will let this list know what they allow
      me to forward AFTER discussion with them. I anticipate that some
      arrangement similar to previous Pennsic Populace Shoots will be maintained,
      since Arwenna was instrumental in those plans, but there are inevitably
      goigng to be changes because of the new venue for Archery.



      Padraig



      _____

      From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Mark Cipra
      Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 6:43 AM
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition



      Did the comment below "Populace points are already being shot on multiple
      days" mean: "as in previous years, there will be multiple days a person
      could come and shoot"? or "all of the shoots won't be set up every day, so a
      member of the populace would have to come over multiple days to do all the
      shoots"? I'd heard the latter through the grapevine.

      Llywelyn (Mark Cipra)
      __
      "Aristotle thought it was edifying to watch terrible things happen to noble
      people. Why this should be so, I do not know. But you've got to hand it to
      him for noticing the phenomenon." Craig Lucas



      ________________________________
      From: Frederick Fenters <padraig@cablespeed.
      <mailto:padraig%40cablespeed.com> com>
      To: SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 4:42:53 PM
      Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

      I am inserting comments below. The idea is to keep things simple and to
      involve as many as possible, as I understand it. A simple hit or miss butt
      would also be easily replicated, so multiple butts can be put out as needed.

      _____

      From: SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com]
      On
      Behalf Of Mark Cipra
      Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:48 AM
      To: SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

      I don't think it's too early at all! Great idea.

      These are the thoughts that occur to me:

      1) This is open to anyone, yes? Then you'll have anywhere between 1 and
      10,000 competitors? Seriously, it could be anywhere from a dozen or so to a
      few hundred. Don't know how to do this, but might it be good to specify
      "Limited to the first 100 who sign up"? Not a good idea, IMO. Having
      multiple exact duplicate target faces is a better idea.

      2) Before or after the Champions' Shoot? If after, it would probably
      require shutting down one of the Populace Shoot ranges. I've heard the
      space is so limited that someone suggested the populace shoot itself (for
      any one participant) be spread across multiple days. (Can anyone confirm or
      deny?) So maybe before, during the practice shooting on the middle weekend,
      might be best. That would also have the advantage of getting a lot of
      people out to the range early, to get used to it. They can become
      amabassadors/ guides for the rest of the populace. Populace points are
      already being shot on multiple days, but hours could be rearranged to allow
      this shoot to go off without interfering.

      3) I'd add that if by chance two or more should hit the target at any given
      range, a means for tie-breaking be specified - moving the target out for a
      second shoot, measure from center, etc. Second shot at the same distance.
      If neither or both hit again, then start moving the target a random distance
      either forward or back. Do not allow the remaining contestants to watch
      while the target is being moved.

      4) Should we try to rustle up a couple more competitions? Make an
      afternoon of it? Or better as a solo event? Maybe use some of the time we
      are taking on the battlefield for this. That would be a great way to get
      populace out there for the other exhibition shoots. Contact Ian Gourdon,
      he's organizing the "Novelty Shoots" at this coming Pennsic.

      Padraig MacRaighne

      Llywelyn (Mark Cipra)
      __
      "Aristotle thought it was edifying to watch terrible things happen to noble
      people. Why this should be so, I do not know. But you've got to hand it to
      him for noticing the phenomenon." Craig Lucas

      ____________ _________ _________ __
      From: James Koch <alchem@... <mailto:alchem%40en.com> <mailto:alchem%
      40en.com> >
      To: SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA- Archery%40yahoog roups.com> yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 8:52:55 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

      Gentlemen & Ladies,
      >
      I realize that this may seem a bit early, but I have been considering
      sponsoring a new archery competition at Pennsic. Last year one of
      the line marshals complained to me that other than the war point
      shoot, there was little in the way of competition at Pennsic. I
      figure that in honor of the new range I ought to help rectify this
      situation. I have two swords in scabbards to offer as prizes. The
      first is a falchion and the second is a grosse messer. I'd like
      there to be one shoot broken into two categories, one for hand bows
      and the other for crossbows. I figure the falchion would go the
      winner of the hand bow division and the grosse messer to the winner
      of the cross bow division. Ideally I'd like the competition to
      eschew actual scores. I was thinking of using something like a
      Saunders matt with a simple hit or miss target. For practical
      reasons, the shoot ought to be really easy to set up and run.
      >
      At this point my ideas as to how the shoot ought to be arranged are
      at best vague. I thought perhaps a small target could be set up at
      around 100 yards. Everyone would shoot one arrow or bolt. If
      someone hit the target they would be the winner of their
      division. If there were no hits, the target would be moved
      progressively closer. If two or more people hit there would be a tie
      breaking shoot. The advantage of this shoot is that it would involve
      long range shooting at unknown ranges, something we can't always host
      at SCA events.
      >
      I was wondering if anyone can suggest a good competition format
      taking into account these criteria.
      >
      Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John edgerton
      Sounds like a fun shoot and great prizes. I wish I could attend. Jon, West ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 28, 2009
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        Sounds like a fun shoot and great prizes.

        I wish I could attend.

        Jon, West

        On Feb 28, 2009, at 1:57 PM, James Koch wrote:

        > Gentlemen & Ladies,
        > >
        > I earlier offered to make two archer's swords available as prizes for
        > a shoot to be held at Pennsic. The plan is to offer a falchion and a
        > katzbalger, both of which I have already made. The falchion will go
        > to the hand bow shooter and the katzbalger to the crossbow shooter
        > with the winning scores. It recently occurred to me that this shoot
        > could be held during one of the try outs for the champion's shoot
        > teams. The marshals are already on the range and the range is
        > already closed for the day. Since the try outs are open to pretty
        > much everyone, this would save having to set up a special shoot on
        > another day. It would also reward the folks who come out every year
        > to compete on the champions teams. The scores from the competition
        > could also be used to help select members for the teams. My idea is
        > to do a simple retreating butt elimination shoot. You know, like in
        > the movie Robin Hood. Any thoughts on this?
        > >
        > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Siegfried
        Gladius ... I love the idea of the shoot. You might want to check with the East & Mid KAM s though about doing it during the tryouts. The tryouts aren t
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 2, 2009
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          Gladius ... I love the idea of the shoot. You might want to check
          with the East & Mid KAM's though about doing it during the tryouts.

          The tryouts aren't always 'fully' open. (East is often less open of a
          tryout than the Mid is).

          And I might be concerned about hundreds of folks showing up to try to
          win your most excellent wares, and therefore flooding the tryouts and
          making it harder for the people running the tryouts and trying to
          actually make some tough decisions.

          Siegfried


          On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:57 PM, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
          > Gentlemen & Ladies,
          >  >
          > I earlier offered to make two archer's swords available as prizes for
          > a shoot to be held at Pennsic.  The plan is to offer a falchion and a
          > katzbalger, both of which I have already made.  The falchion will go
          > to the hand bow shooter and the katzbalger to the crossbow shooter
          > with the winning scores.  It recently occurred to me that this shoot
          > could be held during one of the try outs for the champion's shoot
          > teams.  The marshals are already on the range and the range is
          > already closed for the day.  Since the try outs are open to pretty
          > much everyone, this would save having to set up a special shoot on
          > another day.  It would also reward the folks who come out every year
          > to compete on the champions teams.  The scores from the competition
          > could also be used to help select members for the teams.  My idea is
          > to do a simple retreating butt elimination shoot.  You know, like in
          > the movie Robin Hood.  Any thoughts on this?
          >  >
          > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


          --
          ________________________________________________________
          Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
          Barony of Highland Foorde - Kingdom of Atlantia
          Society Combat Archery Marshal
        • James Koch
          Siegfried, ... Thanks for the heads up. I didn t realize that the East Kingdom limited participation. Here in the Mid it s pretty much anyone who wants to
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 2, 2009
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            Siegfried,
            >
            Thanks for the heads up. I didn't realize that the East Kingdom
            limited participation. Here in the Mid it's pretty much anyone who
            wants to try out. I suppose since the champions shoot is so early
            this year it might be better to put it off to the second week when
            there is less of a rush. Can anyone suggest a good day? I assume it
            would be shot after the range closes for points for the day.
            >
            Jim "Gladius"
            >
            >
            >At 08:49 AM 3/2/2009, you wrote:

            >Gladius ... I love the idea of the shoot. You might want to check
            >with the East & Mid KAM's though about doing it during the tryouts.
            >
            >The tryouts aren't always 'fully' open. (East is often less open of a
            >tryout than the Mid is).
            >
            >And I might be concerned about hundreds of folks showing up to try to
            >win your most excellent wares, and therefore flooding the tryouts and
            >making it harder for the people running the tryouts and trying to
            >actually make some tough decisions.
            >
            >Siegfried
            >
            >On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:57 PM, James Koch
            ><<mailto:alchem%40en.com>alchem@...> wrote:
            > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
            > > >
            > > I earlier offered to make two archer's swords available as prizes for
            > > a shoot to be held at Pennsic. The plan is to offer a falchion and a
            > > katzbalger, both of which I have already made. The falchion will go
            > > to the hand bow shooter and the katzbalger to the crossbow shooter
            > > with the winning scores. It recently occurred to me that this shoot
            > > could be held during one of the try outs for the champion's shoot
            > > teams. The marshals are already on the range and the range is
            > > already closed for the day. Since the try outs are open to pretty
            > > much everyone, this would save having to set up a special shoot on
            > > another day. It would also reward the folks who come out every year
            > > to compete on the champions teams. The scores from the competition
            > > could also be used to help select members for the teams. My idea is
            > > to do a simple retreating butt elimination shoot. You know, like in
            > > the movie Robin Hood. Any thoughts on this?
            > > >
            > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
            >
            >--
            >________________________________________________________
            >Siegfried Sebastian Faust - <http://crossbows.biz/>http://crossbows.biz/
            >Barony of Highland Foorde - Kingdom of Atlantia
            >Society Combat Archery Marshal
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Koch
            Gentlemen & Ladies, ... I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 11 8:39 PM
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              Gentlemen & Ladies,
              >
              I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
              set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
              advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
              butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
              tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
              math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
              remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
              selecting 6 projectiles.
              >
              I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
              have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
              for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
              different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
              sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
              >
              Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
              1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
              the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
              shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
              same target.
              2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
              hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
              which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
              3) The shoot is un-timed.
              4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
              participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
              remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
              the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
              did not make a hit are eliminated.
              5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
              to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
              target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
              keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
              eliminated from the competition.
              6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
              made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
              re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
              competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
              remaining from the previous round.
              7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
              winning crossbow shooter remain.
              >
              Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
            • John edgerton
              Sounds like fun. ... What about pass-throughs? Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it just be a blank face? ... If an archer does
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 11 9:31 PM
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                Sounds like fun.

                > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                >

                What about pass-throughs?
                Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it
                just be a blank face?

                > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                > eliminated from the competition.
                >

                If an archer does not find all of their misses right away (or after a
                set time limit), they should have to wait for the end of the
                competition to search for them.

                > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                > remaining from the previous round.
                >

                The rules do not state that the butt is going to be moved further
                away after each end. But, I take it that is the intention.

                > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                >

                What happens if after X number of ends, you have two archers and two
                crossbow shooters remaining, and then they all miss with their
                remaining arrows/bolts?

                Jon

                On Jul 11, 2009, at 8:39 PM, James Koch wrote:

                >
                >
                > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                > >
                > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                > set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                > butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                > tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                > math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                > remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                > selecting 6 projectiles.
                > >
                > I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                > have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                > for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                > >
                > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                > 1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                > shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                > same target.
                > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                > 3) The shoot is un-timed.
                > 4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                > the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                > did not make a hit are eliminated.
                > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                > eliminated from the competition.
                > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                > remaining from the previous round.
                > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                > >
                > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kelly
                start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is lost and cannot be used in the following rounds. that it ? ... From: James Koch To:
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 12 3:18 AM
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                  start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is "lost" and cannot be used in the following rounds.

                  that it ?
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: James Koch
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 11:39 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition





                  Gentlemen & Ladies,
                  >
                  I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                  set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                  advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                  butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                  tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                  math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                  remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                  selecting 6 projectiles.
                  >
                  I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                  have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                  for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                  different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                  sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                  >
                  Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                  1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                  the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                  shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                  same target.
                  2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                  hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                  which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                  3) The shoot is un-timed.
                  4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                  participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                  remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                  the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                  did not make a hit are eliminated.
                  5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                  to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                  target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                  keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                  eliminated from the competition.
                  6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                  made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                  re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                  competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                  remaining from the previous round.
                  7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                  winning crossbow shooter remain.
                  >
                  Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Siegfried
                  Sounds good. Sounds simple. I ve seen a similar thing done before. But you need to move everyone back (or the target back) at each phase. Else you can be
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 12 7:28 AM
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                    Sounds good. Sounds simple. I've seen a similar thing done before.

                    But you need to move everyone back (or the target back) at each phase.
                    Else you can be sitting there for a LONG LONG time while noone misses
                    until exhaustion sets in.

                    And if you start it nice and close, you can get people feeling good
                    and having fun with it, as the attrition slowly begins. (30yd-ish for
                    the first one? Assuming a 48" Saunders matt?) If you assume that
                    it's moved back 10+yd-ish each time, then after a few rounds you'll
                    whittle it down. And it will become quite the spectator sport with
                    those knocked out watching and enjoying.

                    A couple things to consider also, because someone will ask:

                    1) Pass Throughs - Hopefully not an issue once at distance and if you
                    choose a new-er matt.

                    2) How do you count bounceoffs (or crossbow bolts that cartwheel and
                    hit flat, etc). If witnessed are they a hit? Or must it stick?

                    3) Deflections? If it hits the end of the matt, and is witnessed,
                    does it count?

                    4) If EVERYONE misses (or all bows, or all crossbows), how is it
                    handled? Do you Just 'do over'? Do you bring the target back closer?

                    5) And end-game should perhaps be planned, if you run out of room.
                    IE. Assuming you are using the clout range, then at 120yd or so, you
                    are going to run out of the ability to move the target farther. If
                    you have some better shooters, they 'might' still be hitting it. You
                    should at least have a plan in place, either to stay at 'max distance'
                    until the randomness has someone fail out. Or to declare a multiple
                    winner at that point, or flip a coin, or make people start shooting
                    from one foot ;) You hopefully won't run into this, as the
                    random-distance issue and stray shots will make people start missing
                    earlier, but having an end-game planned in case, would make people
                    happier than a random decision at that point.

                    Siegfried


                    On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 11:39 PM, James Koch<alchem@...> wrote:
                    > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                    >  >
                    > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic.  I have drawn up a
                    > set of rules for the contest and have included them below.  Be
                    > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                    > butt.  I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                    > tripod.  This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition.  No
                    > math whatsoever on anyone's part.  Even the distances shot will
                    > remain unknown and irrelevant.  The only counting required will be in
                    > selecting 6 projectiles.
                    >  >
                    > I have a question for the group.  Are the following rules clear, and
                    > have I covered all the bases?  Please understand that I am not asking
                    > for improvements or major changes to the competition.  If you think a
                    > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                    > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                    >  >
                    > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                    > 1)   This competition will award two prizes.  One prize will go to
                    > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                    > shooter.  Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                    > same target.
                    > 2)   The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range.  A
                    > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                    > which fall or bounce back out.  Glances will not be counted as good.
                    > 3)   The shoot is un-timed.
                    > 4)   Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts.  Each
                    > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                    > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended.  Participants who hit
                    > the target stay in the competition into the next round.  Those who
                    > did not make a hit are eliminated.
                    > 5)   Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                    > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                    > target.  These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                    > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                    > eliminated from the competition.
                    > 6)   After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                    > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                    > re-used.  Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                    > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                    > remaining from the previous round.
                    > 7)   The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                    > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                    >  >
                    > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > --
                    > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    --
                    ________________________________________________________
                    Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                    Baron of Highland Foorde - Kingdom of Atlantia
                  • James Koch
                    Jon, ... It s a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a number of issues I hadn t addressed. I was thinking in terms of a saunders matt and
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 12 9:05 AM
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                      Jon,
                      >
                      It's a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a
                      number of issues I hadn't addressed. I was thinking in terms of a
                      saunders matt and didn't consider pass throughs. However, just in
                      case I'll add them to the list. I suppose we can add a center mark
                      of sorts to the target face just to help the people who like a hard
                      aiming point. As for the time involved in searching for misses, I
                      don't think this will be a big problem since I expect the shoot to go
                      pretty fast. Of course it will depend on how many people actually
                      decide to compete. If we get 100+ this will be an issue at least in
                      the early rounds. What I can do though is bring along a bunch of
                      those little ground marker flags to show the former locations of the
                      butt. That will make it easier for people who come back later
                      looking for buried projectiles. The butt will definitely be moved
                      back a bit for each new round. Of course this will be left to the
                      marshal. As to the final two participants both missing, that is
                      something which had not occurred to me. I guess we'll then keep the
                      butt where it is and have a sudden death type shoot off where each
                      takes a shot until one hits and the other misses. So when are you
                      making the pilgrimage to Pennsic?
                      >
                      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


                      >Sounds like fun.
                      >
                      > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                      > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                      > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                      > >
                      >
                      >What about pass-throughs?
                      >Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it
                      >just be a blank face?
                      >
                      > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                      > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                      > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                      > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                      > > eliminated from the competition.
                      > >
                      >
                      >If an archer does not find all of their misses right away (or after a
                      >set time limit), they should have to wait for the end of the
                      >competition to search for them.
                      >
                      > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                      > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                      > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                      > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                      > > remaining from the previous round.
                      > >
                      >
                      >The rules do not state that the butt is going to be moved further
                      >away after each end. But, I take it that is the intention.
                      >
                      > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                      > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                      > >
                      >
                      >What happens if after X number of ends, you have two archers and two
                      >crossbow shooters remaining, and then they all miss with their
                      >remaining arrows/bolts?
                      >
                      >Jon
                      >
                      >On Jul 11, 2009, at 8:39 PM, James Koch wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                      > > >
                      > > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                      > > set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                      > > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                      > > butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                      > > tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                      > > math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                      > > remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                      > > selecting 6 projectiles.
                      > > >
                      > > I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                      > > have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                      > > for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                      > > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                      > > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                      > > >
                      > > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                      > > 1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                      > > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                      > > shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                      > > same target.
                      > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                      > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                      > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                      > > 3) The shoot is un-timed.
                      > > 4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                      > > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                      > > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                      > > the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                      > > did not make a hit are eliminated.
                      > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                      > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                      > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                      > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                      > > eliminated from the competition.
                      > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                      > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                      > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                      > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                      > > remaining from the previous round.
                      > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                      > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                      > > >
                      > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John edgerton
                      If you run out of space to move the target and you have tie scores at that point, you can have the next end at the same distance and the archer closest to the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 12 9:27 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        If you run out of space to move the target and you have tie scores
                        at that point, you can have the next end at the same distance and the
                        archer closest to the center mark wins. This was a period practice.

                        When will I make it to Pennsic .... when I win the Lottery. ;-)
                        Sounds like a fun competition, I wish I could make it.

                        I just ran a somewhat similar competition at An Tir/West war. I had
                        a series of rings of decreasing size, all shot at the same distance.
                        Each archer had three arrows, only the archers that one arrow hIt
                        inside the ring continued to the next smaller target. It was based
                        on a period Italian competition.

                        Jon

                        On Jul 12, 2009, at 9:05 AM, James Koch wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > Jon,
                        > >
                        > It's a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a
                        > number of issues I hadn't addressed. I was thinking in terms of a
                        > saunders matt and didn't consider pass throughs. However, just in
                        > case I'll add them to the list. I suppose we can add a center mark
                        > of sorts to the target face just to help the people who like a hard
                        > aiming point. As for the time involved in searching for misses, I
                        > don't think this will be a big problem since I expect the shoot to go
                        > pretty fast. Of course it will depend on how many people actually
                        > decide to compete. If we get 100+ this will be an issue at least in
                        > the early rounds. What I can do though is bring along a bunch of
                        > those little ground marker flags to show the former locations of the
                        > butt. That will make it easier for people who come back later
                        > looking for buried projectiles. The butt will definitely be moved
                        > back a bit for each new round. Of course this will be left to the
                        > marshal. As to the final two participants both missing, that is
                        > something which had not occurred to me. I guess we'll then keep the
                        > butt where it is and have a sudden death type shoot off where each
                        > takes a shot until one hits and the other misses. So when are you
                        > making the pilgrimage to Pennsic?
                        > >
                        > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                        >
                        > >Sounds like fun.
                        > >
                        > > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                        > > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                        > > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as
                        > good.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >What about pass-throughs?
                        > >Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it
                        > >just be a blank face?
                        > >
                        > > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow
                        > shooters
                        > > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                        > > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for
                        > safe
                        > > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                        > > > eliminated from the competition.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >If an archer does not find all of their misses right away (or after a
                        > >set time limit), they should have to wait for the end of the
                        > >competition to search for them.
                        > >
                        > > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which
                        > has
                        > > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                        > > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                        > > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                        > > > remaining from the previous round.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >The rules do not state that the butt is going to be moved further
                        > >away after each end. But, I take it that is the intention.
                        > >
                        > > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and
                        > one
                        > > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >What happens if after X number of ends, you have two archers and two
                        > >crossbow shooters remaining, and then they all miss with their
                        > >remaining arrows/bolts?
                        > >
                        > >Jon
                        > >
                        > >On Jul 11, 2009, at 8:39 PM, James Koch wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                        > > > >
                        > > > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn
                        > up a
                        > > > set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                        > > > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                        > > > butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                        > > > tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                        > > > math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                        > > > remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will
                        > be in
                        > > > selecting 6 projectiles.
                        > > > >
                        > > > I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear,
                        > and
                        > > > have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not
                        > asking
                        > > > for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you
                        > think a
                        > > > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                        > > > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                        > > > >
                        > > > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                        > > > 1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                        > > > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning
                        > crossbow
                        > > > shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                        > > > same target.
                        > > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                        > > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                        > > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as
                        > good.
                        > > > 3) The shoot is un-timed.
                        > > > 4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                        > > > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                        > > > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                        > > > the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                        > > > did not make a hit are eliminated.
                        > > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow
                        > shooters
                        > > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                        > > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for
                        > safe
                        > > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                        > > > eliminated from the competition.
                        > > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which
                        > has
                        > > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                        > > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                        > > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                        > > > remaining from the previous round.
                        > > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and
                        > one
                        > > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                        > > > >
                        > > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James McAdams
                        ... We did a combination of these last year as a fundraiser. 3 arrows, and the target moves back. Any arrows that missed the target were lost for future
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 12 10:43 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          John edgerton wrote:

                          >I just ran a somewhat similar competition at An Tir/West war. I had
                          >a series of rings of decreasing size, all shot at the same distance.
                          >Each archer had three arrows, only the archers that one arrow hIt
                          >inside the ring continued to the next smaller target. It was based
                          >on a period Italian competition.
                          >
                          We did a combination of these last year as a fundraiser. 3 arrows,
                          and the target moves back. Any arrows that missed the target were lost
                          for future rounds.
                          The fundraising aspect was that you could re-buy any 'lost' arrows.
                          A couple of generous and competitive archers made this the most
                          successful of a half-dozen fundraisers we did that day.

                          Xavier
                        • Hobbe
                          ... Move the people, not the butt.
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 12 12:56 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The butt will definitely be moved
                            > back a bit for each new round.
                            >

                            Move the people, not the butt.
                          • James Koch
                            Kelly, ... That s it in a nutshell. The rest is all legal mumbo jumbo. ... Jim Koch Gladius The Alchemist ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 12 4:20 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Kelly,
                              >
                              That's it in a nutshell. The rest is all legal mumbo jumbo.
                              >
                              Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                              >


                              >start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is "lost" and
                              >cannot be used in the following rounds.
                              >
                              >that it ?
                              >----- Original Message -----
                              >From: James Koch
                              >To: <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                              >Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 11:39 PM
                              >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition
                              >
                              >Gentlemen & Ladies,
                              > >
                              >I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                              >set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                              >advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                              >butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                              >tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                              >math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                              >remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                              >selecting 6 projectiles.
                              > >
                              >I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                              >have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                              >for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                              >different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                              >sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                              > >
                              >Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                              >1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                              >the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                              >shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                              >same target.
                              >2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                              >hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                              >which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                              >3) The shoot is un-timed.
                              >4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                              >participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                              >remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                              >the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                              >did not make a hit are eliminated.
                              >5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                              >to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                              >target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                              >keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                              >eliminated from the competition.
                              >6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                              >made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                              >re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                              >competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                              >remaining from the previous round.
                              >7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                              >winning crossbow shooter remain.
                              > >
                              >Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                              >
                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • James Koch
                              Hobbe, ... It may be possible to move the people back, if the parallel ranges are closed at that time. I expect to use the existing gates, but until the new
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 12 4:30 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hobbe,
                                >
                                It may be possible to move the people back, if the parallel ranges
                                are closed at that time. I expect to use the existing gates, but
                                until the new ranges are set up, it's hard to say which will work
                                best. Leaving the butt stationary does make finding lost arrows easier.
                                >
                                Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                >
                                >
                                >At 03:56 PM 7/12/2009, you wrote:


                                >--- In
                                ><mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com,
                                >James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > The butt will definitely be moved
                                > > back a bit for each new round.
                                > >
                                >
                                >Move the people, not the butt.
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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