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DIE ARMBRUST for sale on eBay

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  • John edgerton
    Harmuth s Die Armbrust is for sale on eBay. $36.94 starting bid. German text, but the photos are worth it. Jon http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 4, 2008
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      Harmuth's Die Armbrust" is for sale on eBay. $36.94 starting bid.
      German text, but the photos are worth it.

      Jon


      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
      ViewItem&item=330291627088&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
    • James Koch
      Gentlemen & Ladies, ... I realize that this may seem a bit early, but I have been considering sponsoring a new archery competition at Pennsic. Last year one
      Message 2 of 24 , Dec 7, 2008
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        Gentlemen & Ladies,
        >
        I realize that this may seem a bit early, but I have been considering
        sponsoring a new archery competition at Pennsic. Last year one of
        the line marshals complained to me that other than the war point
        shoot, there was little in the way of competition at Pennsic. I
        figure that in honor of the new range I ought to help rectify this
        situation. I have two swords in scabbards to offer as prizes. The
        first is a falchion and the second is a grosse messer. I'd like
        there to be one shoot broken into two categories, one for hand bows
        and the other for crossbows. I figure the falchion would go the
        winner of the hand bow division and the grosse messer to the winner
        of the cross bow division. Ideally I'd like the competition to
        eschew actual scores. I was thinking of using something like a
        Saunders matt with a simple hit or miss target. For practical
        reasons, the shoot ought to be really easy to set up and run.
        >
        At this point my ideas as to how the shoot ought to be arranged are
        at best vague. I thought perhaps a small target could be set up at
        around 100 yards. Everyone would shoot one arrow or bolt. If
        someone hit the target they would be the winner of their
        division. If there were no hits, the target would be moved
        progressively closer. If two or more people hit there would be a tie
        breaking shoot. The advantage of this shoot is that it would involve
        long range shooting at unknown ranges, something we can't always host
        at SCA events.
        >
        I was wondering if anyone can suggest a good competition format
        taking into account these criteria.
        >
        Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
      • Mark Cipra
        I don t think it s too early at all!  Great idea. These are the thoughts that occur to me: 1)  This is open to anyone, yes?  Then you ll have anywhere
        Message 3 of 24 , Dec 8, 2008
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          I don't think it's too early at all!  Great idea.

          These are the thoughts that occur to me:

          1)  This is open to anyone, yes?  Then you'll have anywhere between 1 and 10,000 competitors?  Seriously, it could be anywhere from a dozen or so to a few hundred.  Don't know how to do this, but might it be good to specify "Limited to the first 100 who sign up"?

          2)  Before or after the Champions' Shoot?  If after, it would probably require shutting down one of the Populace Shoot ranges.  I've heard the space is so limited that someone suggested the populace shoot itself (for any one participant) be spread across multiple days.  (Can anyone confirm or deny?)  So maybe before, during the practice shooting on the middle weekend, might be best.  That would also have the advantage of getting a lot of people out to the range early, to get used to it.  They can become amabassadors/guides for the rest of the populace.

          3)  I'd add that if by chance two or more should hit the target at any given range, a means for tie-breaking be specified - moving the target out for a second shoot, measure from center, etc.

          4)  Should we try to rustle up a couple more competitions?  Make an afternoon of it?  Or better as a solo event?


          Llywelyn (Mark Cipra)
          __
          "Aristotle thought it was edifying to watch terrible things happen to noble people. Why this should be so, I do not know. But you've got to hand it to him for noticing the phenomenon." Craig Lucas




          ________________________________
          From: James Koch <alchem@...>
          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 8:52:55 PM
          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition


          Gentlemen & Ladies,
          >
          I realize that this may seem a bit early, but I have been considering
          sponsoring a new archery competition at Pennsic. Last year one of
          the line marshals complained to me that other than the war point
          shoot, there was little in the way of competition at Pennsic. I
          figure that in honor of the new range I ought to help rectify this
          situation. I have two swords in scabbards to offer as prizes. The
          first is a falchion and the second is a grosse messer. I'd like
          there to be one shoot broken into two categories, one for hand bows
          and the other for crossbows. I figure the falchion would go the
          winner of the hand bow division and the grosse messer to the winner
          of the cross bow division. Ideally I'd like the competition to
          eschew actual scores. I was thinking of using something like a
          Saunders matt with a simple hit or miss target. For practical
          reasons, the shoot ought to be really easy to set up and run.
          >
          At this point my ideas as to how the shoot ought to be arranged are
          at best vague. I thought perhaps a small target could be set up at
          around 100 yards. Everyone would shoot one arrow or bolt. If
          someone hit the target they would be the winner of their
          division. If there were no hits, the target would be moved
          progressively closer. If two or more people hit there would be a tie
          breaking shoot. The advantage of this shoot is that it would involve
          long range shooting at unknown ranges, something we can't always host
          at SCA events.
          >
          I was wondering if anyone can suggest a good competition format
          taking into account these criteria.
          >
          Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John and Carol Atkins
          Gladius, First let me say I am very happy that the Pennsic archery community is taking action to make Pennsic archery more exciting. No hit on those who have
          Message 4 of 24 , Dec 8, 2008
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            Gladius,
            First let me say I am very happy that the Pennsic archery community
            is taking action to make Pennsic archery more exciting. No hit on
            those who have run it before but the last couple of years have not
            been terribly inspiring. I say this full well knowing the major big
            time job it is to organize and run archery at an event as large as
            Pennsic! And for that and to those who have stepped up to this task
            I say THANK YOU!

            Now on to my point, Atlantia is in the process of designing a
            populace shoot (perhaps more than one). The intent of our shoot is
            that the Masters Shoot is for the ""good archers" but there hasn't
            been much for the rest of the archers. We are discussing a shoot for
            the "rest of the archers". If I may suggest here that someone step
            up to act as a coordinator of sponsored shoots designed and run by
            non-Pennsic staff people. It would be great if we had a good novelty
            shoot every single day the range is open. Someone to coordinate the
            efforts would prevent having more than one shoot on one day thereby
            spreading the joy over the entire two weeks.

            As for your shoot idea, I like it. However one issue comes to mind.
            If you have a hit or miss target at 100 yards with only one arrow
            shot the shoot tends to favor the better archers. I have found the
            real challenge in designing a shoot is to design it so that it
            challenges the better archers yet still allows some points to be
            scored by the less skilled archers. So to apply this concept to your
            shoot how about something like 3 points for a hit in the "target" and
            1 point for a hit in a circle around the target, say a 10 foot
            diameter circle. If you allow three arrows, the archers could "range
            in" with the better archers hitting the mark (hopefully) and the less
            skilled perhaps getting arrows in the circle. Just an idea.

            Christophe of Grey


            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
            >
            > Gentlemen & Ladies,
            > >
            > I realize that this may seem a bit early, but I have been
            considering
            > sponsoring a new archery competition at Pennsic. Last year one of
            > the line marshals complained to me that other than the war point
            > shoot, there was little in the way of competition at Pennsic. I
            > figure that in honor of the new range I ought to help rectify this
            > situation. I have two swords in scabbards to offer as prizes. The
            > first is a falchion and the second is a grosse messer. I'd like
            > there to be one shoot broken into two categories, one for hand bows
            > and the other for crossbows. I figure the falchion would go the
            > winner of the hand bow division and the grosse messer to the winner
            > of the cross bow division. Ideally I'd like the competition to
            > eschew actual scores. I was thinking of using something like a
            > Saunders matt with a simple hit or miss target. For practical
            > reasons, the shoot ought to be really easy to set up and run.
            > >
            > At this point my ideas as to how the shoot ought to be arranged are
            > at best vague. I thought perhaps a small target could be set up at
            > around 100 yards. Everyone would shoot one arrow or bolt. If
            > someone hit the target they would be the winner of their
            > division. If there were no hits, the target would be moved
            > progressively closer. If two or more people hit there would be a
            tie
            > breaking shoot. The advantage of this shoot is that it would
            involve
            > long range shooting at unknown ranges, something we can't always
            host
            > at SCA events.
            > >
            > I was wondering if anyone can suggest a good competition format
            > taking into account these criteria.
            > >
            > Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
            >
          • caleb@buffnet.net
            I was at an event outside of Houston, back in Sept., and part of their archery competition was a clout shoot made up as a giant five ring target. They used
            Message 5 of 24 , Dec 8, 2008
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              I was at an event outside of Houston, back in Sept., and part of their
              archery competition was a clout shoot made up as a giant five ring target.
              They used driveway makrers to mark off the center and the edge of each
              ring. The markers were set one foot apart from each other so that the
              bullseye was two feet in diameter. A line attached to the center pole and
              marked with knots at each foot was used to determine where the head of the
              arrow had landed.

              Caleb Reynolds
              9th Baron of the Rhydderich Hael
              from Work Land

              John and Carol Atkins said:
              > Gladius,
              > First let me say I am very happy that the Pennsic archery community is
              > taking action to make Pennsic archery more exciting. No hit on those
              > who have run it before but the last couple of years have not been
              > terribly inspiring. I say this full well knowing the major big time
              > job it is to organize and run archery at an event as large as Pennsic!
              > And for that and to those who have stepped up to this task I say THANK
              > YOU!
              >
              > Now on to my point, Atlantia is in the process of designing a
              > populace shoot (perhaps more than one). The intent of our shoot is
              > that the Masters Shoot is for the ""good archers" but there hasn't been
              > much for the rest of the archers. We are discussing a shoot for the
              > "rest of the archers". If I may suggest here that someone step up to
              > act as a coordinator of sponsored shoots designed and run by
              > non-Pennsic staff people. It would be great if we had a good novelty
              > shoot every single day the range is open. Someone to coordinate the
              > efforts would prevent having more than one shoot on one day thereby
              > spreading the joy over the entire two weeks.
              >
              > As for your shoot idea, I like it. However one issue comes to mind.
              > If you have a hit or miss target at 100 yards with only one arrow shot
              > the shoot tends to favor the better archers. I have found the real
              > challenge in designing a shoot is to design it so that it
              > challenges the better archers yet still allows some points to be
              > scored by the less skilled archers. So to apply this concept to your
              > shoot how about something like 3 points for a hit in the "target" and 1
              > point for a hit in a circle around the target, say a 10 foot
              > diameter circle. If you allow three arrows, the archers could "range
              > in" with the better archers hitting the mark (hopefully) and the less
              > skilled perhaps getting arrows in the circle. Just an idea.
              >
              > Christophe of Grey
              >
              >
              > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Gentlemen & Ladies,
              >> >
              >> I realize that this may seem a bit early, but I have been
              > considering
              >> sponsoring a new archery competition at Pennsic. Last year one of
              >> the line marshals complained to me that other than the war point
              >> shoot, there was little in the way of competition at Pennsic. I
              >> figure that in honor of the new range I ought to help rectify this
              >> situation. I have two swords in scabbards to offer as prizes. The
              >> first is a falchion and the second is a grosse messer. I'd like
              >> there to be one shoot broken into two categories, one for hand bows
              >> and the other for crossbows. I figure the falchion would go the
              >> winner of the hand bow division and the grosse messer to the winner
              >> of the cross bow division. Ideally I'd like the competition to
              >> eschew actual scores. I was thinking of using something like a
              >> Saunders matt with a simple hit or miss target. For practical
              >> reasons, the shoot ought to be really easy to set up and run.
              >> >
              >> At this point my ideas as to how the shoot ought to be arranged are
              >> at best vague. I thought perhaps a small target could be set up at
              >> around 100 yards. Everyone would shoot one arrow or bolt. If
              >> someone hit the target they would be the winner of their
              >> division. If there were no hits, the target would be moved
              >> progressively closer. If two or more people hit there would be a
              > tie
              >> breaking shoot. The advantage of this shoot is that it would
              > involve
              >> long range shooting at unknown ranges, something we can't always
              > host
              >> at SCA events.
              >> >
              >> I was wondering if anyone can suggest a good competition format
              >> taking into account these criteria.
              >> >
              >> Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > --
              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • James Koch
              Christophe, ... You bring up a good point. We already have a day set aside for the champions shoot. Perhaps this prize shoot can be made open to everyone
              Message 6 of 24 , Dec 8, 2008
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                Christophe,
                >
                >Now on to my point, Atlantia is in the process of designing a
                >populace shoot (perhaps more than one). The intent of our shoot is
                >that the Masters Shoot is for the ""good archers" but there hasn't
                >been much for the rest of the archers. We are discussing a shoot for
                >the "rest of the archers". If I may suggest here that someone step
                >up to act as a coordinator of sponsored shoots designed and run by
                >non-Pennsic staff people. It would be great if we had a good novelty
                >shoot every single day the range is open. Someone to coordinate the
                >efforts would prevent having more than one shoot on one day thereby
                >spreading the joy over the entire two weeks.

                You bring up a good point. We already have a day set aside for the
                champions shoot. Perhaps this prize shoot can be made open to
                everyone except the folks chosen for the champions teams. I'd say it
                ought to also include any alternates who were on the champions team,
                but who didn't get a chance to actually shoot.


                >As for your shoot idea, I like it. However one issue comes to mind.
                >If you have a hit or miss target at 100 yards with only one arrow
                >shot the shoot tends to favor the better archers. I have found the
                >real challenge in designing a shoot is to design it so that it
                >challenges the better archers yet still allows some points to be
                >scored by the less skilled archers. So to apply this concept to your
                >shoot how about something like 3 points for a hit in the "target" and
                >1 point for a hit in a circle around the target, say a 10 foot
                >diameter circle. If you allow three arrows, the archers could "range
                >in" with the better archers hitting the mark (hopefully) and the less
                >skilled perhaps getting arrows in the circle. Just an idea.
                >
                >Christophe of Grey
                The suggested 100 yard shoot was meant only as an example. My real
                intent is to stay away from the use of math in scoring. I also want
                something impromptu so that set up is quick and easy. It must also
                be a quick competition to run so that one or two hot and tired
                marshals can get it over with and trudge back to camp for dinner. We
                could actually have three different shoots utilizing the same target
                butt. If we had three hand bow winners and three cross bow winners,
                they could compete in a tie breaker.
                >
                Jim (Gladius)
              • John edgerton
                If you want to avoid any math, try using the closest arrow/bolt to the center is the winner. This just requires a roundel/circle of whatever size and at
                Message 7 of 24 , Dec 8, 2008
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                  If you want to avoid any math, try using the closest arrow/bolt to
                  the center is the winner. This just requires a roundel/circle of
                  whatever size and at whatever distance the MIC wants it to be shot.
                  This was a quite period shoot.

                  Jon

                  On Dec 8, 2008, at 12:11 PM, James Koch wrote:

                  > Christophe,
                  > >
                  > >Now on to my point, Atlantia is in the process of designing a
                  > >populace shoot (perhaps more than one). The intent of our shoot is
                  > >that the Masters Shoot is for the ""good archers" but there hasn't
                  > >been much for the rest of the archers. We are discussing a shoot for
                  > >the "rest of the archers". If I may suggest here that someone step
                  > >up to act as a coordinator of sponsored shoots designed and run by
                  > >non-Pennsic staff people. It would be great if we had a good novelty
                  > >shoot every single day the range is open. Someone to coordinate the
                  > >efforts would prevent having more than one shoot on one day thereby
                  > >spreading the joy over the entire two weeks.
                  >
                  > You bring up a good point. We already have a day set aside for the
                  > champions shoot. Perhaps this prize shoot can be made open to
                  > everyone except the folks chosen for the champions teams. I'd say it
                  > ought to also include any alternates who were on the champions team,
                  > but who didn't get a chance to actually shoot.
                  >
                  > >As for your shoot idea, I like it. However one issue comes to mind.
                  > >If you have a hit or miss target at 100 yards with only one arrow
                  > >shot the shoot tends to favor the better archers. I have found the
                  > >real challenge in designing a shoot is to design it so that it
                  > >challenges the better archers yet still allows some points to be
                  > >scored by the less skilled archers. So to apply this concept to your
                  > >shoot how about something like 3 points for a hit in the "target" and
                  > >1 point for a hit in a circle around the target, say a 10 foot
                  > >diameter circle. If you allow three arrows, the archers could "range
                  > >in" with the better archers hitting the mark (hopefully) and the less
                  > >skilled perhaps getting arrows in the circle. Just an idea.
                  > >
                  > >Christophe of Grey
                  > The suggested 100 yard shoot was meant only as an example. My real
                  > intent is to stay away from the use of math in scoring. I also want
                  > something impromptu so that set up is quick and easy. It must also
                  > be a quick competition to run so that one or two hot and tired
                  > marshals can get it over with and trudge back to camp for dinner. We
                  > could actually have three different shoots utilizing the same target
                  > butt. If we had three hand bow winners and three cross bow winners,
                  > they could compete in a tie breaker.
                  > >
                  > Jim (Gladius)
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James Koch
                  Jon, ... Hmmmm? Okay, we set up a saunders matt at say 40 yards and let everyone shoot 3 arrows. We then let people glean all of the arrows off of the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Dec 8, 2008
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                    Jon,
                    >
                    Hmmmm? Okay, we set up a saunders matt at say 40 yards and let
                    everyone shoot 3 arrows. We then let people glean all of the arrows
                    off of the ground. The people who put one or more arrows in the matt
                    get to go on to the next round. If they have 1 arrow in the matt,
                    they get to use 2 arrows. If they have 2 in the matt they get to
                    shoot 3. If they have 3 in the matt they get to shoot 4. We move
                    the matt back a bit. If the new range won't allow for this, we
                    simply attach a rondel to the saunders matt. If necessary we next
                    attach a smaller rondel. This shoot requires no keeping of
                    scores. It will work with 10 or 100 participants and crossbows and
                    hand bows can shoot it simultaneously. I like it.
                    >
                    Jim (Gladius)
                    >
                    >
                    > At 11:37 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote:

                    >If you want to avoid any math, try using the closest arrow/bolt to
                    >the center is the winner. This just requires a roundel/circle of
                    >whatever size and at whatever distance the MIC wants it to be shot.
                    >This was a quite period shoot.
                    >
                    >Jon
                    >
                    >On Dec 8, 2008, at 12:11 PM, James Koch wrote:
                    >
                    > > Christophe,
                    > > >
                    > > >Now on to my point, Atlantia is in the process of designing a
                    > > >populace shoot (perhaps more than one). The intent of our shoot is
                    > > >that the Masters Shoot is for the ""good archers" but there hasn't
                    > > >been much for the rest of the archers. We are discussing a shoot for
                    > > >the "rest of the archers". If I may suggest here that someone step
                    > > >up to act as a coordinator of sponsored shoots designed and run by
                    > > >non-Pennsic staff people. It would be great if we had a good novelty
                    > > >shoot every single day the range is open. Someone to coordinate the
                    > > >efforts would prevent having more than one shoot on one day thereby
                    > > >spreading the joy over the entire two weeks.
                    > >
                    > > You bring up a good point. We already have a day set aside for the
                    > > champions shoot. Perhaps this prize shoot can be made open to
                    > > everyone except the folks chosen for the champions teams. I'd say it
                    > > ought to also include any alternates who were on the champions team,
                    > > but who didn't get a chance to actually shoot.
                    > >
                    > > >As for your shoot idea, I like it. However one issue comes to mind.
                    > > >If you have a hit or miss target at 100 yards with only one arrow
                    > > >shot the shoot tends to favor the better archers. I have found the
                    > > >real challenge in designing a shoot is to design it so that it
                    > > >challenges the better archers yet still allows some points to be
                    > > >scored by the less skilled archers. So to apply this concept to your
                    > > >shoot how about something like 3 points for a hit in the "target" and
                    > > >1 point for a hit in a circle around the target, say a 10 foot
                    > > >diameter circle. If you allow three arrows, the archers could "range
                    > > >in" with the better archers hitting the mark (hopefully) and the less
                    > > >skilled perhaps getting arrows in the circle. Just an idea.
                    > > >
                    > > >Christophe of Grey
                    > > The suggested 100 yard shoot was meant only as an example. My real
                    > > intent is to stay away from the use of math in scoring. I also want
                    > > something impromptu so that set up is quick and easy. It must also
                    > > be a quick competition to run so that one or two hot and tired
                    > > marshals can get it over with and trudge back to camp for dinner. We
                    > > could actually have three different shoots utilizing the same target
                    > > butt. If we had three hand bow winners and three cross bow winners,
                    > > they could compete in a tie breaker.
                    > > >
                    > > Jim (Gladius)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Frederick Fenters
                    I am inserting comments below. The idea is to keep things simple and to involve as many as possible, as I understand it. A simple hit or miss butt would also
                    Message 9 of 24 , Dec 9, 2008
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                      I am inserting comments below. The idea is to keep things simple and to
                      involve as many as possible, as I understand it. A simple hit or miss butt
                      would also be easily replicated, so multiple butts can be put out as needed.




                      _____

                      From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of Mark Cipra
                      Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:48 AM
                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition



                      I don't think it's too early at all! Great idea.

                      These are the thoughts that occur to me:

                      1) This is open to anyone, yes? Then you'll have anywhere between 1 and
                      10,000 competitors? Seriously, it could be anywhere from a dozen or so to a
                      few hundred. Don't know how to do this, but might it be good to specify
                      "Limited to the first 100 who sign up"? Not a good idea, IMO. Having
                      multiple exact duplicate target faces is a better idea.

                      2) Before or after the Champions' Shoot? If after, it would probably
                      require shutting down one of the Populace Shoot ranges. I've heard the
                      space is so limited that someone suggested the populace shoot itself (for
                      any one participant) be spread across multiple days. (Can anyone confirm or
                      deny?) So maybe before, during the practice shooting on the middle weekend,
                      might be best. That would also have the advantage of getting a lot of
                      people out to the range early, to get used to it. They can become
                      amabassadors/guides for the rest of the populace. Populace points are
                      already being shot on multiple days, but hours could be rearranged to allow
                      this shoot to go off without interfering.

                      3) I'd add that if by chance two or more should hit the target at any given
                      range, a means for tie-breaking be specified - moving the target out for a
                      second shoot, measure from center, etc. Second shot at the same distance.
                      If neither or both hit again, then start moving the target a random distance
                      either forward or back. Do not allow the remaining contestants to watch
                      while the target is being moved.

                      4) Should we try to rustle up a couple more competitions? Make an
                      afternoon of it? Or better as a solo event? Maybe use some of the time we
                      are taking on the battlefield for this. That would be a great way to get
                      populace out there for the other exhibition shoots. Contact Ian Gourdon,
                      he's organizing the "Novelty Shoots" at this coming Pennsic.



                      Padraig MacRaighne

                      Llywelyn (Mark Cipra)
                      __
                      "Aristotle thought it was edifying to watch terrible things happen to noble
                      people. Why this should be so, I do not know. But you've got to hand it to
                      him for noticing the phenomenon." Craig Lucas

                      ________________________________
                      From: James Koch <alchem@... <mailto:alchem%40en.com> >
                      To: SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 8:52:55 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

                      Gentlemen & Ladies,
                      >
                      I realize that this may seem a bit early, but I have been considering
                      sponsoring a new archery competition at Pennsic. Last year one of
                      the line marshals complained to me that other than the war point
                      shoot, there was little in the way of competition at Pennsic. I
                      figure that in honor of the new range I ought to help rectify this
                      situation. I have two swords in scabbards to offer as prizes. The
                      first is a falchion and the second is a grosse messer. I'd like
                      there to be one shoot broken into two categories, one for hand bows
                      and the other for crossbows. I figure the falchion would go the
                      winner of the hand bow division and the grosse messer to the winner
                      of the cross bow division. Ideally I'd like the competition to
                      eschew actual scores. I was thinking of using something like a
                      Saunders matt with a simple hit or miss target. For practical
                      reasons, the shoot ought to be really easy to set up and run.
                      >
                      At this point my ideas as to how the shoot ought to be arranged are
                      at best vague. I thought perhaps a small target could be set up at
                      around 100 yards. Everyone would shoot one arrow or bolt. If
                      someone hit the target they would be the winner of their
                      division. If there were no hits, the target would be moved
                      progressively closer. If two or more people hit there would be a tie
                      breaking shoot. The advantage of this shoot is that it would involve
                      long range shooting at unknown ranges, something we can't always host
                      at SCA events.
                      >
                      I was wondering if anyone can suggest a good competition format
                      taking into account these criteria.
                      >
                      Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mark Cipra
                      Did the comment below Populace points are already being shot on multiple days mean:  as in previous years, there will be multiple days a person could come
                      Message 10 of 24 , Dec 10, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Did the comment below "Populace points are already being shot on multiple days" mean:  "as in previous years, there will be multiple days a person could come and shoot"? or "all of the shoots won't be set up every day, so a member of the populace would have to come over multiple days to do all the shoots"?  I'd heard the latter through the grapevine.

                         Llywelyn (Mark Cipra)
                        __
                        "Aristotle thought it was edifying to watch terrible things happen to noble people. Why this should be so, I do not know. But you've got to hand it to him for noticing the phenomenon." Craig Lucas

                         



                        ________________________________
                        From: Frederick Fenters <padraig@...>
                        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 4:42:53 PM
                        Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition


                        I am inserting comments below. The idea is to keep things simple and to
                        involve as many as possible, as I understand it. A simple hit or miss butt
                        would also be easily replicated, so multiple butts can be put out as needed.

                        _____

                        From: SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com] On
                        Behalf Of Mark Cipra
                        Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:48 AM
                        To: SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

                        I don't think it's too early at all! Great idea.

                        These are the thoughts that occur to me:

                        1) This is open to anyone, yes? Then you'll have anywhere between 1 and
                        10,000 competitors? Seriously, it could be anywhere from a dozen or so to a
                        few hundred. Don't know how to do this, but might it be good to specify
                        "Limited to the first 100 who sign up"? Not a good idea, IMO. Having
                        multiple exact duplicate target faces is a better idea.

                        2) Before or after the Champions' Shoot? If after, it would probably
                        require shutting down one of the Populace Shoot ranges. I've heard the
                        space is so limited that someone suggested the populace shoot itself (for
                        any one participant) be spread across multiple days. (Can anyone confirm or
                        deny?) So maybe before, during the practice shooting on the middle weekend,
                        might be best. That would also have the advantage of getting a lot of
                        people out to the range early, to get used to it. They can become
                        amabassadors/ guides for the rest of the populace. Populace points are
                        already being shot on multiple days, but hours could be rearranged to allow
                        this shoot to go off without interfering.

                        3) I'd add that if by chance two or more should hit the target at any given
                        range, a means for tie-breaking be specified - moving the target out for a
                        second shoot, measure from center, etc. Second shot at the same distance.
                        If neither or both hit again, then start moving the target a random distance
                        either forward or back. Do not allow the remaining contestants to watch
                        while the target is being moved.

                        4) Should we try to rustle up a couple more competitions? Make an
                        afternoon of it? Or better as a solo event? Maybe use some of the time we
                        are taking on the battlefield for this. That would be a great way to get
                        populace out there for the other exhibition shoots. Contact Ian Gourdon,
                        he's organizing the "Novelty Shoots" at this coming Pennsic.

                        Padraig MacRaighne

                        Llywelyn (Mark Cipra)
                        __
                        "Aristotle thought it was edifying to watch terrible things happen to noble
                        people. Why this should be so, I do not know. But you've got to hand it to
                        him for noticing the phenomenon." Craig Lucas

                        ____________ _________ _________ __
                        From: James Koch <alchem@... <mailto:alchem% 40en.com> >
                        To: SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA- Archery%40yahoog roups.com> yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 8:52:55 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

                        Gentlemen & Ladies,
                        >
                        I realize that this may seem a bit early, but I have been considering
                        sponsoring a new archery competition at Pennsic. Last year one of
                        the line marshals complained to me that other than the war point
                        shoot, there was little in the way of competition at Pennsic. I
                        figure that in honor of the new range I ought to help rectify this
                        situation. I have two swords in scabbards to offer as prizes. The
                        first is a falchion and the second is a grosse messer. I'd like
                        there to be one shoot broken into two categories, one for hand bows
                        and the other for crossbows. I figure the falchion would go the
                        winner of the hand bow division and the grosse messer to the winner
                        of the cross bow division. Ideally I'd like the competition to
                        eschew actual scores. I was thinking of using something like a
                        Saunders matt with a simple hit or miss target. For practical
                        reasons, the shoot ought to be really easy to set up and run.
                        >
                        At this point my ideas as to how the shoot ought to be arranged are
                        at best vague. I thought perhaps a small target could be set up at
                        around 100 yards. Everyone would shoot one arrow or bolt. If
                        someone hit the target they would be the winner of their
                        division. If there were no hits, the target would be moved
                        progressively closer. If two or more people hit there would be a tie
                        breaking shoot. The advantage of this shoot is that it would involve
                        long range shooting at unknown ranges, something we can't always host
                        at SCA events.
                        >
                        I was wondering if anyone can suggest a good competition format
                        taking into account these criteria.
                        >
                        Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Frederick Fenters
                        I have not yet spoken with Arwenna and Ian Gourdan, so I have no information at this point. I would have to say that at this point, unless one of those two
                        Message 11 of 24 , Dec 10, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I have not yet spoken with Arwenna and Ian Gourdan, so I have no information
                          at this point. I would have to say that at this point, unless one of those
                          two has imprinted it or agreed to be quoted that anything is strictly RUMOR
                          and needs to be regarded as such. I will let this list know what they allow
                          me to forward AFTER discussion with them. I anticipate that some
                          arrangement similar to previous Pennsic Populace Shoots will be maintained,
                          since Arwenna was instrumental in those plans, but there are inevitably
                          goigng to be changes because of the new venue for Archery.



                          Padraig



                          _____

                          From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of Mark Cipra
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 6:43 AM
                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition



                          Did the comment below "Populace points are already being shot on multiple
                          days" mean: "as in previous years, there will be multiple days a person
                          could come and shoot"? or "all of the shoots won't be set up every day, so a
                          member of the populace would have to come over multiple days to do all the
                          shoots"? I'd heard the latter through the grapevine.

                          Llywelyn (Mark Cipra)
                          __
                          "Aristotle thought it was edifying to watch terrible things happen to noble
                          people. Why this should be so, I do not know. But you've got to hand it to
                          him for noticing the phenomenon." Craig Lucas



                          ________________________________
                          From: Frederick Fenters <padraig@cablespeed.
                          <mailto:padraig%40cablespeed.com> com>
                          To: SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 4:42:53 PM
                          Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

                          I am inserting comments below. The idea is to keep things simple and to
                          involve as many as possible, as I understand it. A simple hit or miss butt
                          would also be easily replicated, so multiple butts can be put out as needed.

                          _____

                          From: SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com]
                          On
                          Behalf Of Mark Cipra
                          Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:48 AM
                          To: SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

                          I don't think it's too early at all! Great idea.

                          These are the thoughts that occur to me:

                          1) This is open to anyone, yes? Then you'll have anywhere between 1 and
                          10,000 competitors? Seriously, it could be anywhere from a dozen or so to a
                          few hundred. Don't know how to do this, but might it be good to specify
                          "Limited to the first 100 who sign up"? Not a good idea, IMO. Having
                          multiple exact duplicate target faces is a better idea.

                          2) Before or after the Champions' Shoot? If after, it would probably
                          require shutting down one of the Populace Shoot ranges. I've heard the
                          space is so limited that someone suggested the populace shoot itself (for
                          any one participant) be spread across multiple days. (Can anyone confirm or
                          deny?) So maybe before, during the practice shooting on the middle weekend,
                          might be best. That would also have the advantage of getting a lot of
                          people out to the range early, to get used to it. They can become
                          amabassadors/ guides for the rest of the populace. Populace points are
                          already being shot on multiple days, but hours could be rearranged to allow
                          this shoot to go off without interfering.

                          3) I'd add that if by chance two or more should hit the target at any given
                          range, a means for tie-breaking be specified - moving the target out for a
                          second shoot, measure from center, etc. Second shot at the same distance.
                          If neither or both hit again, then start moving the target a random distance
                          either forward or back. Do not allow the remaining contestants to watch
                          while the target is being moved.

                          4) Should we try to rustle up a couple more competitions? Make an
                          afternoon of it? Or better as a solo event? Maybe use some of the time we
                          are taking on the battlefield for this. That would be a great way to get
                          populace out there for the other exhibition shoots. Contact Ian Gourdon,
                          he's organizing the "Novelty Shoots" at this coming Pennsic.

                          Padraig MacRaighne

                          Llywelyn (Mark Cipra)
                          __
                          "Aristotle thought it was edifying to watch terrible things happen to noble
                          people. Why this should be so, I do not know. But you've got to hand it to
                          him for noticing the phenomenon." Craig Lucas

                          ____________ _________ _________ __
                          From: James Koch <alchem@... <mailto:alchem%40en.com> <mailto:alchem%
                          40en.com> >
                          To: SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA- Archery%40yahoog roups.com> yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 8:52:55 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition

                          Gentlemen & Ladies,
                          >
                          I realize that this may seem a bit early, but I have been considering
                          sponsoring a new archery competition at Pennsic. Last year one of
                          the line marshals complained to me that other than the war point
                          shoot, there was little in the way of competition at Pennsic. I
                          figure that in honor of the new range I ought to help rectify this
                          situation. I have two swords in scabbards to offer as prizes. The
                          first is a falchion and the second is a grosse messer. I'd like
                          there to be one shoot broken into two categories, one for hand bows
                          and the other for crossbows. I figure the falchion would go the
                          winner of the hand bow division and the grosse messer to the winner
                          of the cross bow division. Ideally I'd like the competition to
                          eschew actual scores. I was thinking of using something like a
                          Saunders matt with a simple hit or miss target. For practical
                          reasons, the shoot ought to be really easy to set up and run.
                          >
                          At this point my ideas as to how the shoot ought to be arranged are
                          at best vague. I thought perhaps a small target could be set up at
                          around 100 yards. Everyone would shoot one arrow or bolt. If
                          someone hit the target they would be the winner of their
                          division. If there were no hits, the target would be moved
                          progressively closer. If two or more people hit there would be a tie
                          breaking shoot. The advantage of this shoot is that it would involve
                          long range shooting at unknown ranges, something we can't always host
                          at SCA events.
                          >
                          I was wondering if anyone can suggest a good competition format
                          taking into account these criteria.
                          >
                          Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • John edgerton
                          Sounds like a fun shoot and great prizes. I wish I could attend. Jon, West ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 28, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Sounds like a fun shoot and great prizes.

                            I wish I could attend.

                            Jon, West

                            On Feb 28, 2009, at 1:57 PM, James Koch wrote:

                            > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                            > >
                            > I earlier offered to make two archer's swords available as prizes for
                            > a shoot to be held at Pennsic. The plan is to offer a falchion and a
                            > katzbalger, both of which I have already made. The falchion will go
                            > to the hand bow shooter and the katzbalger to the crossbow shooter
                            > with the winning scores. It recently occurred to me that this shoot
                            > could be held during one of the try outs for the champion's shoot
                            > teams. The marshals are already on the range and the range is
                            > already closed for the day. Since the try outs are open to pretty
                            > much everyone, this would save having to set up a special shoot on
                            > another day. It would also reward the folks who come out every year
                            > to compete on the champions teams. The scores from the competition
                            > could also be used to help select members for the teams. My idea is
                            > to do a simple retreating butt elimination shoot. You know, like in
                            > the movie Robin Hood. Any thoughts on this?
                            > >
                            > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Siegfried
                            Gladius ... I love the idea of the shoot. You might want to check with the East & Mid KAM s though about doing it during the tryouts. The tryouts aren t
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 2, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Gladius ... I love the idea of the shoot. You might want to check
                              with the East & Mid KAM's though about doing it during the tryouts.

                              The tryouts aren't always 'fully' open. (East is often less open of a
                              tryout than the Mid is).

                              And I might be concerned about hundreds of folks showing up to try to
                              win your most excellent wares, and therefore flooding the tryouts and
                              making it harder for the people running the tryouts and trying to
                              actually make some tough decisions.

                              Siegfried


                              On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:57 PM, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                              > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                              >  >
                              > I earlier offered to make two archer's swords available as prizes for
                              > a shoot to be held at Pennsic.  The plan is to offer a falchion and a
                              > katzbalger, both of which I have already made.  The falchion will go
                              > to the hand bow shooter and the katzbalger to the crossbow shooter
                              > with the winning scores.  It recently occurred to me that this shoot
                              > could be held during one of the try outs for the champion's shoot
                              > teams.  The marshals are already on the range and the range is
                              > already closed for the day.  Since the try outs are open to pretty
                              > much everyone, this would save having to set up a special shoot on
                              > another day.  It would also reward the folks who come out every year
                              > to compete on the champions teams.  The scores from the competition
                              > could also be used to help select members for the teams.  My idea is
                              > to do a simple retreating butt elimination shoot.  You know, like in
                              > the movie Robin Hood.  Any thoughts on this?
                              >  >
                              > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


                              --
                              ________________________________________________________
                              Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                              Barony of Highland Foorde - Kingdom of Atlantia
                              Society Combat Archery Marshal
                            • James Koch
                              Siegfried, ... Thanks for the heads up. I didn t realize that the East Kingdom limited participation. Here in the Mid it s pretty much anyone who wants to
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 2, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Siegfried,
                                >
                                Thanks for the heads up. I didn't realize that the East Kingdom
                                limited participation. Here in the Mid it's pretty much anyone who
                                wants to try out. I suppose since the champions shoot is so early
                                this year it might be better to put it off to the second week when
                                there is less of a rush. Can anyone suggest a good day? I assume it
                                would be shot after the range closes for points for the day.
                                >
                                Jim "Gladius"
                                >
                                >
                                >At 08:49 AM 3/2/2009, you wrote:

                                >Gladius ... I love the idea of the shoot. You might want to check
                                >with the East & Mid KAM's though about doing it during the tryouts.
                                >
                                >The tryouts aren't always 'fully' open. (East is often less open of a
                                >tryout than the Mid is).
                                >
                                >And I might be concerned about hundreds of folks showing up to try to
                                >win your most excellent wares, and therefore flooding the tryouts and
                                >making it harder for the people running the tryouts and trying to
                                >actually make some tough decisions.
                                >
                                >Siegfried
                                >
                                >On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:57 PM, James Koch
                                ><<mailto:alchem%40en.com>alchem@...> wrote:
                                > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                > > >
                                > > I earlier offered to make two archer's swords available as prizes for
                                > > a shoot to be held at Pennsic. The plan is to offer a falchion and a
                                > > katzbalger, both of which I have already made. The falchion will go
                                > > to the hand bow shooter and the katzbalger to the crossbow shooter
                                > > with the winning scores. It recently occurred to me that this shoot
                                > > could be held during one of the try outs for the champion's shoot
                                > > teams. The marshals are already on the range and the range is
                                > > already closed for the day. Since the try outs are open to pretty
                                > > much everyone, this would save having to set up a special shoot on
                                > > another day. It would also reward the folks who come out every year
                                > > to compete on the champions teams. The scores from the competition
                                > > could also be used to help select members for the teams. My idea is
                                > > to do a simple retreating butt elimination shoot. You know, like in
                                > > the movie Robin Hood. Any thoughts on this?
                                > > >
                                > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                >
                                >--
                                >________________________________________________________
                                >Siegfried Sebastian Faust - <http://crossbows.biz/>http://crossbows.biz/
                                >Barony of Highland Foorde - Kingdom of Atlantia
                                >Society Combat Archery Marshal
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • James Koch
                                Gentlemen & Ladies, ... I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 11 8:39 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                  >
                                  I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                                  set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                                  advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                                  butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                                  tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                                  math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                                  remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                                  selecting 6 projectiles.
                                  >
                                  I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                                  have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                                  for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                                  different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                                  sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                                  >
                                  Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                                  1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                                  the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                                  shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                                  same target.
                                  2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                                  hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                                  which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                                  3) The shoot is un-timed.
                                  4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                                  participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                                  remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                                  the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                                  did not make a hit are eliminated.
                                  5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                                  to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                                  target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                                  keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                                  eliminated from the competition.
                                  6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                                  made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                                  re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                                  competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                                  remaining from the previous round.
                                  7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                                  winning crossbow shooter remain.
                                  >
                                  Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                • John edgerton
                                  Sounds like fun. ... What about pass-throughs? Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it just be a blank face? ... If an archer does
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 11 9:31 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Sounds like fun.

                                    > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                                    > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                                    > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                                    >

                                    What about pass-throughs?
                                    Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it
                                    just be a blank face?

                                    > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                                    > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                                    > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                                    > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                                    > eliminated from the competition.
                                    >

                                    If an archer does not find all of their misses right away (or after a
                                    set time limit), they should have to wait for the end of the
                                    competition to search for them.

                                    > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                                    > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                                    > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                                    > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                                    > remaining from the previous round.
                                    >

                                    The rules do not state that the butt is going to be moved further
                                    away after each end. But, I take it that is the intention.

                                    > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                                    > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                                    >

                                    What happens if after X number of ends, you have two archers and two
                                    crossbow shooters remaining, and then they all miss with their
                                    remaining arrows/bolts?

                                    Jon

                                    On Jul 11, 2009, at 8:39 PM, James Koch wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                    > >
                                    > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                                    > set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                                    > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                                    > butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                                    > tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                                    > math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                                    > remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                                    > selecting 6 projectiles.
                                    > >
                                    > I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                                    > have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                                    > for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                                    > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                                    > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                                    > >
                                    > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                                    > 1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                                    > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                                    > shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                                    > same target.
                                    > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                                    > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                                    > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                                    > 3) The shoot is un-timed.
                                    > 4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                                    > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                                    > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                                    > the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                                    > did not make a hit are eliminated.
                                    > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                                    > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                                    > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                                    > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                                    > eliminated from the competition.
                                    > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                                    > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                                    > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                                    > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                                    > remaining from the previous round.
                                    > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                                    > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                                    > >
                                    > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Kelly
                                    start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is lost and cannot be used in the following rounds. that it ? ... From: James Koch To:
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 12 3:18 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is "lost" and cannot be used in the following rounds.

                                      that it ?
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: James Koch
                                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 11:39 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition





                                      Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                      >
                                      I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                                      set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                                      advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                                      butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                                      tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                                      math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                                      remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                                      selecting 6 projectiles.
                                      >
                                      I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                                      have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                                      for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                                      different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                                      sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                                      >
                                      Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                                      1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                                      the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                                      shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                                      same target.
                                      2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                                      hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                                      which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                                      3) The shoot is un-timed.
                                      4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                                      participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                                      remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                                      the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                                      did not make a hit are eliminated.
                                      5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                                      to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                                      target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                                      keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                                      eliminated from the competition.
                                      6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                                      made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                                      re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                                      competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                                      remaining from the previous round.
                                      7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                                      winning crossbow shooter remain.
                                      >
                                      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Siegfried
                                      Sounds good. Sounds simple. I ve seen a similar thing done before. But you need to move everyone back (or the target back) at each phase. Else you can be
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 12 7:28 AM
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                                        Sounds good. Sounds simple. I've seen a similar thing done before.

                                        But you need to move everyone back (or the target back) at each phase.
                                        Else you can be sitting there for a LONG LONG time while noone misses
                                        until exhaustion sets in.

                                        And if you start it nice and close, you can get people feeling good
                                        and having fun with it, as the attrition slowly begins. (30yd-ish for
                                        the first one? Assuming a 48" Saunders matt?) If you assume that
                                        it's moved back 10+yd-ish each time, then after a few rounds you'll
                                        whittle it down. And it will become quite the spectator sport with
                                        those knocked out watching and enjoying.

                                        A couple things to consider also, because someone will ask:

                                        1) Pass Throughs - Hopefully not an issue once at distance and if you
                                        choose a new-er matt.

                                        2) How do you count bounceoffs (or crossbow bolts that cartwheel and
                                        hit flat, etc). If witnessed are they a hit? Or must it stick?

                                        3) Deflections? If it hits the end of the matt, and is witnessed,
                                        does it count?

                                        4) If EVERYONE misses (or all bows, or all crossbows), how is it
                                        handled? Do you Just 'do over'? Do you bring the target back closer?

                                        5) And end-game should perhaps be planned, if you run out of room.
                                        IE. Assuming you are using the clout range, then at 120yd or so, you
                                        are going to run out of the ability to move the target farther. If
                                        you have some better shooters, they 'might' still be hitting it. You
                                        should at least have a plan in place, either to stay at 'max distance'
                                        until the randomness has someone fail out. Or to declare a multiple
                                        winner at that point, or flip a coin, or make people start shooting
                                        from one foot ;) You hopefully won't run into this, as the
                                        random-distance issue and stray shots will make people start missing
                                        earlier, but having an end-game planned in case, would make people
                                        happier than a random decision at that point.

                                        Siegfried


                                        On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 11:39 PM, James Koch<alchem@...> wrote:
                                        > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                        >  >
                                        > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic.  I have drawn up a
                                        > set of rules for the contest and have included them below.  Be
                                        > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                                        > butt.  I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                                        > tripod.  This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition.  No
                                        > math whatsoever on anyone's part.  Even the distances shot will
                                        > remain unknown and irrelevant.  The only counting required will be in
                                        > selecting 6 projectiles.
                                        >  >
                                        > I have a question for the group.  Are the following rules clear, and
                                        > have I covered all the bases?  Please understand that I am not asking
                                        > for improvements or major changes to the competition.  If you think a
                                        > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                                        > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                                        >  >
                                        > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                                        > 1)   This competition will award two prizes.  One prize will go to
                                        > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                                        > shooter.  Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                                        > same target.
                                        > 2)   The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range.  A
                                        > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                                        > which fall or bounce back out.  Glances will not be counted as good.
                                        > 3)   The shoot is un-timed.
                                        > 4)   Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts.  Each
                                        > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                                        > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended.  Participants who hit
                                        > the target stay in the competition into the next round.  Those who
                                        > did not make a hit are eliminated.
                                        > 5)   Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                                        > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                                        > target.  These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                                        > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                                        > eliminated from the competition.
                                        > 6)   After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                                        > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                                        > re-used.  Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                                        > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                                        > remaining from the previous round.
                                        > 7)   The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                                        > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                                        >  >
                                        > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >



                                        --
                                        ________________________________________________________
                                        Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                        Baron of Highland Foorde - Kingdom of Atlantia
                                      • James Koch
                                        Jon, ... It s a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a number of issues I hadn t addressed. I was thinking in terms of a saunders matt and
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 12 9:05 AM
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                                          Jon,
                                          >
                                          It's a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a
                                          number of issues I hadn't addressed. I was thinking in terms of a
                                          saunders matt and didn't consider pass throughs. However, just in
                                          case I'll add them to the list. I suppose we can add a center mark
                                          of sorts to the target face just to help the people who like a hard
                                          aiming point. As for the time involved in searching for misses, I
                                          don't think this will be a big problem since I expect the shoot to go
                                          pretty fast. Of course it will depend on how many people actually
                                          decide to compete. If we get 100+ this will be an issue at least in
                                          the early rounds. What I can do though is bring along a bunch of
                                          those little ground marker flags to show the former locations of the
                                          butt. That will make it easier for people who come back later
                                          looking for buried projectiles. The butt will definitely be moved
                                          back a bit for each new round. Of course this will be left to the
                                          marshal. As to the final two participants both missing, that is
                                          something which had not occurred to me. I guess we'll then keep the
                                          butt where it is and have a sudden death type shoot off where each
                                          takes a shot until one hits and the other misses. So when are you
                                          making the pilgrimage to Pennsic?
                                          >
                                          Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


                                          >Sounds like fun.
                                          >
                                          > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                                          > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                                          > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >What about pass-throughs?
                                          >Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it
                                          >just be a blank face?
                                          >
                                          > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                                          > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                                          > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                                          > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                                          > > eliminated from the competition.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >If an archer does not find all of their misses right away (or after a
                                          >set time limit), they should have to wait for the end of the
                                          >competition to search for them.
                                          >
                                          > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                                          > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                                          > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                                          > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                                          > > remaining from the previous round.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >The rules do not state that the butt is going to be moved further
                                          >away after each end. But, I take it that is the intention.
                                          >
                                          > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                                          > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >What happens if after X number of ends, you have two archers and two
                                          >crossbow shooters remaining, and then they all miss with their
                                          >remaining arrows/bolts?
                                          >
                                          >Jon
                                          >
                                          >On Jul 11, 2009, at 8:39 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                          > > >
                                          > > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                                          > > set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                                          > > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                                          > > butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                                          > > tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                                          > > math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                                          > > remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                                          > > selecting 6 projectiles.
                                          > > >
                                          > > I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                                          > > have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                                          > > for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                                          > > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                                          > > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                                          > > >
                                          > > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                                          > > 1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                                          > > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                                          > > shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                                          > > same target.
                                          > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                                          > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                                          > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                                          > > 3) The shoot is un-timed.
                                          > > 4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                                          > > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                                          > > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                                          > > the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                                          > > did not make a hit are eliminated.
                                          > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                                          > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                                          > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                                          > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                                          > > eliminated from the competition.
                                          > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                                          > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                                          > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                                          > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                                          > > remaining from the previous round.
                                          > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                                          > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                                          > > >
                                          > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • John edgerton
                                          If you run out of space to move the target and you have tie scores at that point, you can have the next end at the same distance and the archer closest to the
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 12 9:27 AM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            If you run out of space to move the target and you have tie scores
                                            at that point, you can have the next end at the same distance and the
                                            archer closest to the center mark wins. This was a period practice.

                                            When will I make it to Pennsic .... when I win the Lottery. ;-)
                                            Sounds like a fun competition, I wish I could make it.

                                            I just ran a somewhat similar competition at An Tir/West war. I had
                                            a series of rings of decreasing size, all shot at the same distance.
                                            Each archer had three arrows, only the archers that one arrow hIt
                                            inside the ring continued to the next smaller target. It was based
                                            on a period Italian competition.

                                            Jon

                                            On Jul 12, 2009, at 9:05 AM, James Koch wrote:

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Jon,
                                            > >
                                            > It's a good thing I posted this to the group. You brought up a
                                            > number of issues I hadn't addressed. I was thinking in terms of a
                                            > saunders matt and didn't consider pass throughs. However, just in
                                            > case I'll add them to the list. I suppose we can add a center mark
                                            > of sorts to the target face just to help the people who like a hard
                                            > aiming point. As for the time involved in searching for misses, I
                                            > don't think this will be a big problem since I expect the shoot to go
                                            > pretty fast. Of course it will depend on how many people actually
                                            > decide to compete. If we get 100+ this will be an issue at least in
                                            > the early rounds. What I can do though is bring along a bunch of
                                            > those little ground marker flags to show the former locations of the
                                            > butt. That will make it easier for people who come back later
                                            > looking for buried projectiles. The butt will definitely be moved
                                            > back a bit for each new round. Of course this will be left to the
                                            > marshal. As to the final two participants both missing, that is
                                            > something which had not occurred to me. I guess we'll then keep the
                                            > butt where it is and have a sudden death type shoot off where each
                                            > takes a shot until one hits and the other misses. So when are you
                                            > making the pilgrimage to Pennsic?
                                            > >
                                            > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                            >
                                            > >Sounds like fun.
                                            > >
                                            > > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                                            > > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                                            > > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as
                                            > good.
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >What about pass-throughs?
                                            > >Will the target have some type of central aiming point or will it
                                            > >just be a blank face?
                                            > >
                                            > > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow
                                            > shooters
                                            > > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                                            > > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for
                                            > safe
                                            > > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                                            > > > eliminated from the competition.
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >If an archer does not find all of their misses right away (or after a
                                            > >set time limit), they should have to wait for the end of the
                                            > >competition to search for them.
                                            > >
                                            > > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which
                                            > has
                                            > > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                                            > > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                                            > > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                                            > > > remaining from the previous round.
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >The rules do not state that the butt is going to be moved further
                                            > >away after each end. But, I take it that is the intention.
                                            > >
                                            > > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and
                                            > one
                                            > > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >What happens if after X number of ends, you have two archers and two
                                            > >crossbow shooters remaining, and then they all miss with their
                                            > >remaining arrows/bolts?
                                            > >
                                            > >Jon
                                            > >
                                            > >On Jul 11, 2009, at 8:39 PM, James Koch wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn
                                            > up a
                                            > > > set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                                            > > > advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                                            > > > butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                                            > > > tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                                            > > > math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                                            > > > remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will
                                            > be in
                                            > > > selecting 6 projectiles.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear,
                                            > and
                                            > > > have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not
                                            > asking
                                            > > > for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you
                                            > think a
                                            > > > different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                                            > > > sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                                            > > > 1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                                            > > > the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning
                                            > crossbow
                                            > > > shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                                            > > > same target.
                                            > > > 2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                                            > > > hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                                            > > > which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as
                                            > good.
                                            > > > 3) The shoot is un-timed.
                                            > > > 4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                                            > > > participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                                            > > > remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                                            > > > the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                                            > > > did not make a hit are eliminated.
                                            > > > 5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow
                                            > shooters
                                            > > > to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                                            > > > target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for
                                            > safe
                                            > > > keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                                            > > > eliminated from the competition.
                                            > > > 6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which
                                            > has
                                            > > > made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                                            > > > re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                                            > > > competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                                            > > > remaining from the previous round.
                                            > > > 7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and
                                            > one
                                            > > > winning crossbow shooter remain.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • James McAdams
                                            ... We did a combination of these last year as a fundraiser. 3 arrows, and the target moves back. Any arrows that missed the target were lost for future
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 12 10:43 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              John edgerton wrote:

                                              >I just ran a somewhat similar competition at An Tir/West war. I had
                                              >a series of rings of decreasing size, all shot at the same distance.
                                              >Each archer had three arrows, only the archers that one arrow hIt
                                              >inside the ring continued to the next smaller target. It was based
                                              >on a period Italian competition.
                                              >
                                              We did a combination of these last year as a fundraiser. 3 arrows,
                                              and the target moves back. Any arrows that missed the target were lost
                                              for future rounds.
                                              The fundraising aspect was that you could re-buy any 'lost' arrows.
                                              A couple of generous and competitive archers made this the most
                                              successful of a half-dozen fundraisers we did that day.

                                              Xavier
                                            • Hobbe
                                              ... Move the people, not the butt.
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jul 12 12:56 PM
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > The butt will definitely be moved
                                                > back a bit for each new round.
                                                >

                                                Move the people, not the butt.
                                              • James Koch
                                                Kelly, ... That s it in a nutshell. The rest is all legal mumbo jumbo. ... Jim Koch Gladius The Alchemist ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jul 12 4:20 PM
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Kelly,
                                                  >
                                                  That's it in a nutshell. The rest is all legal mumbo jumbo.
                                                  >
                                                  Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                  >


                                                  >start with 6 arrows/bolts, any thing that misses is "lost" and
                                                  >cannot be used in the following rounds.
                                                  >
                                                  >that it ?
                                                  >----- Original Message -----
                                                  >From: James Koch
                                                  >To: <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 11:39 PM
                                                  >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Pennsic Competition
                                                  >
                                                  >Gentlemen & Ladies,
                                                  > >
                                                  >I am sponsoring an archery competition at Pennsic. I have drawn up a
                                                  >set of rules for the contest and have included them below. Be
                                                  >advised, I am not yet sure what exactly will constitute the target
                                                  >butt. I envision it as a being similar to a Saunders matt on a
                                                  >tripod. This is meant to be a simple hit or miss competition. No
                                                  >math whatsoever on anyone's part. Even the distances shot will
                                                  >remain unknown and irrelevant. The only counting required will be in
                                                  >selecting 6 projectiles.
                                                  > >
                                                  >I have a question for the group. Are the following rules clear, and
                                                  >have I covered all the bases? Please understand that I am not asking
                                                  >for improvements or major changes to the competition. If you think a
                                                  >different format is superior, please draw up a set of rules and
                                                  >sponsor your own competition and I'll enter and compete.
                                                  > >
                                                  >Pennsic 38 Alchem Archery Competition
                                                  >1) This competition will award two prizes. One prize will go to
                                                  >the winning hand bow shooter, and the other to the winning crossbow
                                                  >shooter. Hand bows and crossbows will shoot simultaneously at the
                                                  >same target.
                                                  >2) The target consists of a movable butt at an unknown range. A
                                                  >hit anywhere on the butt will be counted as good, including hits
                                                  >which fall or bounce back out. Glances will not be counted as good.
                                                  >3) The shoot is un-timed.
                                                  >4) Participants each begin with six arrows or bolts. Each
                                                  >participant will shoot until a hit is made on the target or all
                                                  >remaining arrows or bolts have been expended. Participants who hit
                                                  >the target stay in the competition into the next round. Those who
                                                  >did not make a hit are eliminated.
                                                  >5) Once all participants have shot, the marshal will allow shooters
                                                  >to gather their arrows and bolts from the ground surrounding the
                                                  >target. These misses will be handed to the scoring marshal for safe
                                                  >keeping until the end of the shoot or until a participant has been
                                                  >eliminated from the competition.
                                                  >6) After all misses have been gathered, any arrow or bolt which has
                                                  >made a good hit on the target may be retrieved and
                                                  >re-used. Participants who hit the target and remain in the
                                                  >competition may combine the scoring arrow or bolt with any others
                                                  >remaining from the previous round.
                                                  >7) The competition will continue until one winning hand bow and one
                                                  >winning crossbow shooter remain.
                                                  > >
                                                  >Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                  >
                                                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • James Koch
                                                  Hobbe, ... It may be possible to move the people back, if the parallel ranges are closed at that time. I expect to use the existing gates, but until the new
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jul 12 4:30 PM
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                                                    Hobbe,
                                                    >
                                                    It may be possible to move the people back, if the parallel ranges
                                                    are closed at that time. I expect to use the existing gates, but
                                                    until the new ranges are set up, it's hard to say which will work
                                                    best. Leaving the butt stationary does make finding lost arrows easier.
                                                    >
                                                    Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >At 03:56 PM 7/12/2009, you wrote:


                                                    >--- In
                                                    ><mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com,
                                                    >James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The butt will definitely be moved
                                                    > > back a bit for each new round.
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    >Move the people, not the butt.
                                                    >
                                                    >


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