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Re: [SCA-Archery] Boobs and Bowstrings

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  • James Koch
    Gentlemen and Ladies, ... As a manufacturer of archery equipment, this sounds like an interesting armoring opportunity. Period documentation anyone? ... Jim
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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      Gentlemen and Ladies,
      >

      >While still a national amature archer shooting for Cal State Long beach,
      >I knew several Olympic caliber ladies that were well endowed. The used a
      >breast protector or shield. String contact with the breast is not
      >always a bad thing. If the sting contacts the side of the breast in a
      >proper stance, it can actually serve as an additional reference point
      >for the anchor point.
      >
      As a manufacturer of archery equipment, this sounds like an
      interesting armoring opportunity. Period documentation anyone?
      >
      Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
    • jameswolfden
      But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast in jeopardy. However, the
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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        But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and
        assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast
        in jeopardy. However, the legends also has it the right breast was
        removed at an early age to encourage the body to grow the right
        arm/shoulder muscles rather than develop the breast. In essense, it
        was a form of pruning the human body.

        That said, most Greek depictions of Amazons show both breasts intact.

        In Service,
        James

        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Michael Grossberg <geejayem@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > The Amazons of ancient Greece were purported to employ a
        proceedure which would solve this problem, but I believe that
        today's female archer might find it just a
        bit....ahhhh..."extreme"?! :(
        > Gardr Gunnarsson
        >
      • Liges
        Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and push out, it would put them
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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          Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots, and if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a bodice, she has no problem.
           
          Liges




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Frederick Fenters
          Back when I first started marshalling (dirt was still a NEW THING) a young lady of my acquaintance commented that the Frisbee was the female archer s best
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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            Back when I first started marshalling (dirt was still a NEW THING) a young
            lady of my acquaintance commented that the Frisbee was the female archer's
            best friend. Especially tucked into her shirt!



            Seriously, try video taping your student to look for what is causing her
            problem. It may be that she needs to draw to her chin instead of under her
            eye, she may be collapsing her bow shoulder, overdrawing (as you mentioned),
            wavering (my term, I mean waving one or both hands during the draw and set),
            or drawing in a horizontally circular motion rather than in a straight line.



            That's all I can think of, off hand.



            Padraig MacRaighne

            Forester of the Greenwood Company



            _____

            From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of McNutt Jr, William R
            Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:48 AM
            To: sca-archery@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Boobs and Bowstrings



            I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
            bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
            we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
            and rolling her right shoulder too far back.

            Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?

            Master William, Reluctant Coach

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • loreleiElkins@aol.com
            Greetings to the list from one reasonably well endowed female archer. When I shoot, and when I teach others to shoot, including a good number of women, I
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 15, 2008
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              Greetings to the list from one reasonably well endowed female archer. When
              I shoot, and when I teach others to shoot, including a good number of women,
              I have them draw the bow string to the left edge of their left breast, (for a
              right handed person.) The string should NEVER be drawn so her breast is in
              between the string and down range. OUCH! If they are drawing in front of
              their breast, their stance is way off. Have them stand correctly, shoulders
              back, draw the string only to the back edge of their breast. One thing I find
              helpful to get the right stance is to swing my right hip back just a little.
              This seems to get everything out of the way and my stance nice and straight.

              Its working for me and others I've taught. I'm sure others have different
              suggestions. Your archer friend may want to try a few things and see which
              one works best for her. It is very unhealthy to damage breast tissue and it
              should not happen, even occasionally.

              Lady Lorelei Greenleaf
              Crois Brigte, Sacred Stone, Atlantia
              Phoenix Guard
              NC Regional Marshal
              Sacred Stone Yeoman
              Atlantian Yew Bow


              In a message dated 11/14/2008 10:48:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              mcnutt@... writes:

              I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
              bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
              we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
              and rolling her right shoulder too far back.

              Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?

              Master William, Reluctant Coach




              Lorelei
              **************You Rock! One month of free movies delivered by mail from
              blockbuster.com
              (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212639737x1200784900/aol?redir=https://www.blockbuster.com/signup/y/reg/p.26978/r.email_footer)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Grossberg
              ... That s probably because the Greeks glorified the human body, and to depict a nude female without two breasts would be against their vision of beauty and
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 15, 2008
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                -----Original Message-----
                >From: jameswolfden <jameswolfden@...>
                >Sent: Nov 14, 2008 2:59 PM
                >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Boobs and Bowstrings
                >
                >But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and
                >assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast
                >in jeopardy. However, the legends also has it the right breast was
                >removed at an early age to encourage the body to grow the right
                >arm/shoulder muscles rather than develop the breast. In essense, it
                >was a form of pruning the human body.
                >
                >That said, most Greek depictions of Amazons show both breasts intact.
                >
                >In Service,
                >James


                That's probably because the Greeks glorified the human body, and to depict a nude female without two breasts would be against their vision of beauty and perfection.
                Gardr Gunnarsson
              • John and Carol Atkins
                I have worked with a few ladies who have experienced this problem. The solution was really quite simple. If the lady stands with her shoulders perpendicular
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 15, 2008
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                  I have worked with a few ladies who have experienced this problem. The
                  solution was really quite simple. If the lady stands with her
                  shoulders perpendicular to the flight line to the target, begin the
                  draw with the bow hand extended towards the target. As she draws the
                  bow the string will rest on the target side of the "problem area". I
                  have seen many new archers draw incorrectly and suffer the
                  consequences. The improper draw, in this case, is to stand in a very
                  open stance, draw the bow, then settle back in a manner that causes the
                  drawn bow string to include the "problem area" resulting in a painful
                  release.

                  cog
                • Laura
                  Are you sure you don t have this backwards? I have seen women in bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so pushed out up front. I have
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
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                    Are you sure you don't have this backwards? I have seen women in
                    bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so pushed
                    out up front. I have encountered many cases of garb interference at
                    the lines - poufy and / or long flowy sleeves, lots of chains, beads,
                    necklaces, as well as bodices pushing the ladies up & out all have
                    caused string interference and entanglements. This is just something
                    that is not considered by occasional and beginner archers who practice
                    only in their mundane clothes. Then they step up to the line once a
                    year at Pennsic and discover their garb is causing problems. I often
                    invite people to shoot in garb at my archery practices for that very
                    reason.
                    I am by no means flat chested, and have always used a square stance.
                    In almost 50 years of shooting the bow I have not managed to thwack
                    myself with the bowstring. I shoot ELB, modern and period recurves
                    and do not encounter the problem. I can suggest getting to the basics
                    of foot placement and hips to make sure she is using a stance that
                    would alleviate the string problem. Foot placement alone is not
                    enough - she has to be sure she is not twisting her hips to place her
                    torso closer to the string. This is sometimes done by beginner
                    archers.

                    Laurens


                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Liges <ligessac@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone
                    considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and
                    push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots, and
                    if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a
                    bodice, she has no problem.
                    >  
                    > Liges
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Nest verch Tangwistel
                    I have been running an archery practice for a long time. When I get a new woman come to practice, I just tell her to keep the stance square and bring the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
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                      I have been running an archery practice for a long time. When I get a new woman come to practice, I just tell her to keep the stance square and bring the string into the side of the breast not across the front. Easy enough if you keep the bow arm shoulder far enough to the front. That simple advice has proved to be just about all that is needed. I can't think of a single example of a whacking at our practice, and from what I have noticed they rarely happen without comment.
                       
                      We hold a couple of practices a year that are designed for people to try out garb. our usual practice is not is garb, but at these it is manditory.
                       
                      Nest

                      --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Laura <Ladybaron@...> wrote:

                      From: Laura <Ladybaron@...>
                      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Boobs and Bowstrings
                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 4:05 AM






                      Are you sure you don't have this backwards? I have seen women in
                      bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so pushed
                      out up front. I have encountered many cases of garb interference at
                      the lines - poufy and / or long flowy sleeves, lots of chains, beads,
                      necklaces, as well as bodices pushing the ladies up & out all have
                      caused string interference and entanglements. This is just something
                      that is not considered by occasional and beginner archers who practice
                      only in their mundane clothes. Then they step up to the line once a
                      year at Pennsic and discover their garb is causing problems. I often
                      invite people to shoot in garb at my archery practices for that very
                      reason.
                      I am by no means flat chested, and have always used a square stance.
                      In almost 50 years of shooting the bow I have not managed to thwack
                      myself with the bowstring. I shoot ELB, modern and period recurves
                      and do not encounter the problem. I can suggest getting to the basics
                      of foot placement and hips to make sure she is using a stance that
                      would alleviate the string problem. Foot placement alone is not
                      enough - she has to be sure she is not twisting her hips to place her
                      torso closer to the string. This is sometimes done by beginner
                      archers.

                      Laurens

                      --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, Liges <ligessac@.. .> wrote:
                      >
                      > Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone
                      considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and
                      push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots, and
                      if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a
                      bodice, she has no problem.
                      >  
                      > Liges
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >


















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • tibbiecroser
                      It might depend on the type of bodice. Many bodices do push the breasts up and out, but some historically styled bodices are designed to flatten the breasts
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
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                        It might depend on the type of bodice. Many bodices do push the
                        breasts up and out, but some historically styled bodices are designed
                        to flatten the breasts and push them off to the sides.

                        For women who feel they need chest protection, fencing and martial
                        arts vendors carry both molded one-piece chest protectors and plastic
                        breast cups that are designed to be inserted into a sports bra.

                        P.S. To introduce myself, I'm Tibbie Croser, a recently authorized
                        (female) rapier fighter in Atlantia who's interested in taking up
                        target archery. I don't anticipate having boob problems myself,
                        because I'm only an A cup.

                        Tibbie Croser, Barony of Storvik, Atlantia

                        In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" <Ladybaron@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Are you sure you don't have this backwards? I have seen women in
                        > bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so
                        pushed
                        > out up front. I have encountered many cases of garb interference
                        at
                        > the lines - poufy and / or long flowy sleeves, lots of chains,
                        beads,
                        > necklaces, as well as bodices pushing the ladies up & out all have
                        > caused string interference and entanglements. This is just
                        something
                        > that is not considered by occasional and beginner archers who
                        practice
                        > only in their mundane clothes. Then they step up to the line once
                        a
                        > year at Pennsic and discover their garb is causing problems. I
                        often
                        > invite people to shoot in garb at my archery practices for that
                        very
                        > reason.
                        > I am by no means flat chested, and have always used a square
                        stance.
                        > In almost 50 years of shooting the bow I have not managed to thwack
                        > myself with the bowstring. I shoot ELB, modern and period recurves
                        > and do not encounter the problem. I can suggest getting to the
                        basics
                        > of foot placement and hips to make sure she is using a stance that
                        > would alleviate the string problem. Foot placement alone is not
                        > enough - she has to be sure she is not twisting her hips to place
                        her
                        > torso closer to the string. This is sometimes done by beginner
                        > archers.
                        >
                        > Laurens
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Liges <ligessac@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone
                        > considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and
                        > push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots,
                        and
                        > if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a
                        > bodice, she has no problem.
                        > >  
                        > > Liges
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                      • sorchaprechan
                        I d always heard it was the left breast. Anyway, Lady Lorelei s got it, I think. I m well endowed and have been pulling my string back to my cheek, and
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
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                          I'd always heard it was the left breast. Anyway, Lady Lorelei's got
                          it, I think. I'm well endowed and have been pulling my string back to
                          my cheek, and learning to aim has been hellish. And baffling, it seems
                          like such a simple thing to do...

                          Sorcha P.

                          > >But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and
                          > >assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast
                          > >in jeopardy.
                        • Brad Boda d'Aylward
                          Late response I ve read the term stance . I ll refer to their form ....... same thing. It sounds like she has what we refer to as Bow Creep . This pulls the
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 27, 2008
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                            Late response

                            I've read the term 'stance'. I'll refer to their 'form'....... same thing.

                            It sounds like she has what we refer to as 'Bow Creep'. This pulls the bow
                            stave out in front of the body and allows the bow string to come in front of
                            the body. Ladies are notorious for this if they are fighting an overly
                            strong bow weight.

                            For proper form: there should be a *straight* line from the bow hand through
                            the left shoulder to the right shoulder. And then there should be a
                            *straight* line from the arrow tip through the string hand to the right
                            elbow. No break in the string hand. This may actually move her anchor point
                            back on her face from the chin to the edge of the mouth or the jaw bone.

                            Anchor point on the face (string fingers should touch the face, chin, eye,
                            mouth, jaw, etc.) And then *pinch a quarter between the shoulder blades*.
                            Arch the back. Use the back muscles to straighten these two lines to form
                            the 'perfect' triangle. On drawing the string it will come straight into the
                            side of the archer and, upon release, go straight away from the breast. I
                            actually had an 'overly endowed' Lady draw the bottom half of the string
                            over the top half of her breast (light poundage bow)

                            Bow creep allows inconsistancy to enter an archers' form. With proper form
                            we avoid 'titty whack' and you will notice that her arrow groupings will
                            tighten up also. Her scores will go up.

                            Let us know how all this info helps.

                            Brad


                            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Boobs and Bowstrings


                            > I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
                            > bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
                            > we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
                            > and rolling her right shoulder too far back.
                            >
                            > Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?
                            >
                            > Master William, Reluctant Coach
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
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