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Re: [SCA-Archery] Boobs and Bowstrings

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  • Michael Grossberg
    ... The Amazons of ancient Greece were purported to employ a proceedure which would solve this problem, but I believe that today s female archer might find it
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
      -----Original Message-----
      >From: Katherine Baldwin <misskofa@...>
      >Sent: Nov 14, 2008 1:10 PM
      >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Boobs and Bowstrings

      The Amazons of ancient Greece were purported to employ a proceedure which would solve this problem, but I believe that today's female archer might find it just a bit....ahhhh..."extreme"?! :(
      Gardr Gunnarsson


      >
      >Greetings fron Caid
      >I am a female shooter. I tell all my female students the solutation. It's
      >simple actually. Tell her to place the foot on the "safe" side of the line
      >about 2" forward of the other foot. If you are a right handed shooter that
      >is the right foot.This creates a Triangle and you miss your breast. Hope
      >this helps. Katherine of Anglesey
      >On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 7:47 AM, McNutt Jr, William R <mcnutt@...>wrote:
      >
      >> I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
      >> bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
      >> we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
      >> and rolling her right shoulder too far back.
      >>
      >> Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?
      >>
      >> Master William, Reluctant Coach
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Eadric Anstapa
      I have come across this with a few women I have coached. My experience has been to remind them that the string should be drawn into the breast and not around
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
        I have come across this with a few women I have coached.

        My experience has been to remind them that the string should be drawn
        into the breast and not around the breast. The stance may need to be
        adjusted to accommodate that.

        As some have pointed are there are chest guards for women but they are
        not designed to keep the string for hitting the breast. They are
        designed so spread and soften the pressure from the string on the
        breast. The prolonged repetition of pressure from the bowstring can
        lead to the formation of a lump within the fatty tissue, which is
        clinically difficult to tell apart from cancer tissue without a biopsy.

        My experience has show that the problem of the string striking the
        chest can often be corrected with a modified stance.

        We all know that there are 4 basic stances for traditional standing
        target archery.

        The Even or Square stance where both feet are in a straight line square
        with the shoulders. This is the stance most often taught to new archers
        as it is the easiest to reproduce ans is very natural for many people.
        It also makes good use of the back muscles for drawing the string.
        However it has disadvantages that it provides the smallest base of
        support and is therefore the least sturdy. This stance provides a
        relatively low amount of string clearance against the chest and can be
        troublesome for large chested shooters.

        The Close stance is where the front foot (foot under the bow hand) is
        moved forward. This provides a more stable support base and gives
        better alignment of the arm and shoulder in a direct line to the
        target. However it tends to encourage the archer the lean away form the
        target and to overdraw the arrow. It also reduces string clearance even
        more and the string may strike against the body. Instinctive archers
        often have a very closed stance.

        The problems you archer may be having might be because they have a
        naturally Closed stance or because the Even stance just isn't working
        well for their body style

        Then there is the Open Stance where the front foot is moved back a bit.
        This provides added stability over the Even stance i n the same way that
        the Closed stance does but it also reduces the tendency to lean toward
        the target and improves string clearance. The downside is that it does
        not make as good a use of the back muscles and requires more arm
        strength with is something that some women lacking arm strength might
        find troublesome. Also because the arm is used more and the back less
        it tends to make the upper body twist towards the target.

        Without actually coaching your student myself, I might suggest that a
        more open stance be tried while making sure that they have a bow that
        they can draw without difficulty and can maintain good upper body
        alignment. I have successfully helped women who have had trouble with
        the string striking their breast by having them Open their stance some.
        An Open stance is taught to many beginning archers and in fact many
        coaches strongly recommend that beginning archers start with an Open stance.

        Then finally ...

        The Oblique stance is where the front foot is pointed about 45 degrees
        toward the target rather than being kept square. This is used mainly by
        experienced and expert archers as it is the hardest to maintain and
        reproduce. This gives the greatest amount of clearance for the bow
        string, gives the archer the greatest amount of target visibility,
        provides a great amount of body stability in high winds, and keeps the
        body in very good equilibrium. Almost never taught to new archers
        because it can be so hard to maintain.

        Regards,

        -EA


        McNutt Jr, William R wrote:
        > I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
        > bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
        > we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
        > and rolling her right shoulder too far back.
        >
        > Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?
        >
        > Master William, Reluctant Coach
        >
        >
      • James Koch
        Gentlemen and Ladies, ... As a manufacturer of archery equipment, this sounds like an interesting armoring opportunity. Period documentation anyone? ... Jim
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
          Gentlemen and Ladies,
          >

          >While still a national amature archer shooting for Cal State Long beach,
          >I knew several Olympic caliber ladies that were well endowed. The used a
          >breast protector or shield. String contact with the breast is not
          >always a bad thing. If the sting contacts the side of the breast in a
          >proper stance, it can actually serve as an additional reference point
          >for the anchor point.
          >
          As a manufacturer of archery equipment, this sounds like an
          interesting armoring opportunity. Period documentation anyone?
          >
          Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
        • jameswolfden
          But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast in jeopardy. However, the
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
            But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and
            assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast
            in jeopardy. However, the legends also has it the right breast was
            removed at an early age to encourage the body to grow the right
            arm/shoulder muscles rather than develop the breast. In essense, it
            was a form of pruning the human body.

            That said, most Greek depictions of Amazons show both breasts intact.

            In Service,
            James

            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Michael Grossberg <geejayem@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > The Amazons of ancient Greece were purported to employ a
            proceedure which would solve this problem, but I believe that
            today's female archer might find it just a
            bit....ahhhh..."extreme"?! :(
            > Gardr Gunnarsson
            >
          • Liges
            Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and push out, it would put them
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
              Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots, and if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a bodice, she has no problem.
               
              Liges




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Frederick Fenters
              Back when I first started marshalling (dirt was still a NEW THING) a young lady of my acquaintance commented that the Frisbee was the female archer s best
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
                Back when I first started marshalling (dirt was still a NEW THING) a young
                lady of my acquaintance commented that the Frisbee was the female archer's
                best friend. Especially tucked into her shirt!



                Seriously, try video taping your student to look for what is causing her
                problem. It may be that she needs to draw to her chin instead of under her
                eye, she may be collapsing her bow shoulder, overdrawing (as you mentioned),
                wavering (my term, I mean waving one or both hands during the draw and set),
                or drawing in a horizontally circular motion rather than in a straight line.



                That's all I can think of, off hand.



                Padraig MacRaighne

                Forester of the Greenwood Company



                _____

                From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of McNutt Jr, William R
                Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:48 AM
                To: sca-archery@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Boobs and Bowstrings



                I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
                bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
                we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
                and rolling her right shoulder too far back.

                Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?

                Master William, Reluctant Coach

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • loreleiElkins@aol.com
                Greetings to the list from one reasonably well endowed female archer. When I shoot, and when I teach others to shoot, including a good number of women, I
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 15, 2008
                  Greetings to the list from one reasonably well endowed female archer. When
                  I shoot, and when I teach others to shoot, including a good number of women,
                  I have them draw the bow string to the left edge of their left breast, (for a
                  right handed person.) The string should NEVER be drawn so her breast is in
                  between the string and down range. OUCH! If they are drawing in front of
                  their breast, their stance is way off. Have them stand correctly, shoulders
                  back, draw the string only to the back edge of their breast. One thing I find
                  helpful to get the right stance is to swing my right hip back just a little.
                  This seems to get everything out of the way and my stance nice and straight.

                  Its working for me and others I've taught. I'm sure others have different
                  suggestions. Your archer friend may want to try a few things and see which
                  one works best for her. It is very unhealthy to damage breast tissue and it
                  should not happen, even occasionally.

                  Lady Lorelei Greenleaf
                  Crois Brigte, Sacred Stone, Atlantia
                  Phoenix Guard
                  NC Regional Marshal
                  Sacred Stone Yeoman
                  Atlantian Yew Bow


                  In a message dated 11/14/2008 10:48:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  mcnutt@... writes:

                  I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
                  bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
                  we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
                  and rolling her right shoulder too far back.

                  Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?

                  Master William, Reluctant Coach




                  Lorelei
                  **************You Rock! One month of free movies delivered by mail from
                  blockbuster.com
                  (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212639737x1200784900/aol?redir=https://www.blockbuster.com/signup/y/reg/p.26978/r.email_footer)


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael Grossberg
                  ... That s probably because the Greeks glorified the human body, and to depict a nude female without two breasts would be against their vision of beauty and
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 15, 2008
                    -----Original Message-----
                    >From: jameswolfden <jameswolfden@...>
                    >Sent: Nov 14, 2008 2:59 PM
                    >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Boobs and Bowstrings
                    >
                    >But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and
                    >assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast
                    >in jeopardy. However, the legends also has it the right breast was
                    >removed at an early age to encourage the body to grow the right
                    >arm/shoulder muscles rather than develop the breast. In essense, it
                    >was a form of pruning the human body.
                    >
                    >That said, most Greek depictions of Amazons show both breasts intact.
                    >
                    >In Service,
                    >James


                    That's probably because the Greeks glorified the human body, and to depict a nude female without two breasts would be against their vision of beauty and perfection.
                    Gardr Gunnarsson
                  • John and Carol Atkins
                    I have worked with a few ladies who have experienced this problem. The solution was really quite simple. If the lady stands with her shoulders perpendicular
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 15, 2008
                      I have worked with a few ladies who have experienced this problem. The
                      solution was really quite simple. If the lady stands with her
                      shoulders perpendicular to the flight line to the target, begin the
                      draw with the bow hand extended towards the target. As she draws the
                      bow the string will rest on the target side of the "problem area". I
                      have seen many new archers draw incorrectly and suffer the
                      consequences. The improper draw, in this case, is to stand in a very
                      open stance, draw the bow, then settle back in a manner that causes the
                      drawn bow string to include the "problem area" resulting in a painful
                      release.

                      cog
                    • Laura
                      Are you sure you don t have this backwards? I have seen women in bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so pushed out up front. I have
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
                        Are you sure you don't have this backwards? I have seen women in
                        bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so pushed
                        out up front. I have encountered many cases of garb interference at
                        the lines - poufy and / or long flowy sleeves, lots of chains, beads,
                        necklaces, as well as bodices pushing the ladies up & out all have
                        caused string interference and entanglements. This is just something
                        that is not considered by occasional and beginner archers who practice
                        only in their mundane clothes. Then they step up to the line once a
                        year at Pennsic and discover their garb is causing problems. I often
                        invite people to shoot in garb at my archery practices for that very
                        reason.
                        I am by no means flat chested, and have always used a square stance.
                        In almost 50 years of shooting the bow I have not managed to thwack
                        myself with the bowstring. I shoot ELB, modern and period recurves
                        and do not encounter the problem. I can suggest getting to the basics
                        of foot placement and hips to make sure she is using a stance that
                        would alleviate the string problem. Foot placement alone is not
                        enough - she has to be sure she is not twisting her hips to place her
                        torso closer to the string. This is sometimes done by beginner
                        archers.

                        Laurens


                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Liges <ligessac@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone
                        considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and
                        push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots, and
                        if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a
                        bodice, she has no problem.
                        >  
                        > Liges
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Nest verch Tangwistel
                        I have been running an archery practice for a long time. When I get a new woman come to practice, I just tell her to keep the stance square and bring the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
                          I have been running an archery practice for a long time. When I get a new woman come to practice, I just tell her to keep the stance square and bring the string into the side of the breast not across the front. Easy enough if you keep the bow arm shoulder far enough to the front. That simple advice has proved to be just about all that is needed. I can't think of a single example of a whacking at our practice, and from what I have noticed they rarely happen without comment.
                           
                          We hold a couple of practices a year that are designed for people to try out garb. our usual practice is not is garb, but at these it is manditory.
                           
                          Nest

                          --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Laura <Ladybaron@...> wrote:

                          From: Laura <Ladybaron@...>
                          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Boobs and Bowstrings
                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 4:05 AM






                          Are you sure you don't have this backwards? I have seen women in
                          bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so pushed
                          out up front. I have encountered many cases of garb interference at
                          the lines - poufy and / or long flowy sleeves, lots of chains, beads,
                          necklaces, as well as bodices pushing the ladies up & out all have
                          caused string interference and entanglements. This is just something
                          that is not considered by occasional and beginner archers who practice
                          only in their mundane clothes. Then they step up to the line once a
                          year at Pennsic and discover their garb is causing problems. I often
                          invite people to shoot in garb at my archery practices for that very
                          reason.
                          I am by no means flat chested, and have always used a square stance.
                          In almost 50 years of shooting the bow I have not managed to thwack
                          myself with the bowstring. I shoot ELB, modern and period recurves
                          and do not encounter the problem. I can suggest getting to the basics
                          of foot placement and hips to make sure she is using a stance that
                          would alleviate the string problem. Foot placement alone is not
                          enough - she has to be sure she is not twisting her hips to place her
                          torso closer to the string. This is sometimes done by beginner
                          archers.

                          Laurens

                          --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, Liges <ligessac@.. .> wrote:
                          >
                          > Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone
                          considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and
                          push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots, and
                          if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a
                          bodice, she has no problem.
                          >  
                          > Liges
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >


















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • tibbiecroser
                          It might depend on the type of bodice. Many bodices do push the breasts up and out, but some historically styled bodices are designed to flatten the breasts
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
                            It might depend on the type of bodice. Many bodices do push the
                            breasts up and out, but some historically styled bodices are designed
                            to flatten the breasts and push them off to the sides.

                            For women who feel they need chest protection, fencing and martial
                            arts vendors carry both molded one-piece chest protectors and plastic
                            breast cups that are designed to be inserted into a sports bra.

                            P.S. To introduce myself, I'm Tibbie Croser, a recently authorized
                            (female) rapier fighter in Atlantia who's interested in taking up
                            target archery. I don't anticipate having boob problems myself,
                            because I'm only an A cup.

                            Tibbie Croser, Barony of Storvik, Atlantia

                            In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" <Ladybaron@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Are you sure you don't have this backwards? I have seen women in
                            > bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so
                            pushed
                            > out up front. I have encountered many cases of garb interference
                            at
                            > the lines - poufy and / or long flowy sleeves, lots of chains,
                            beads,
                            > necklaces, as well as bodices pushing the ladies up & out all have
                            > caused string interference and entanglements. This is just
                            something
                            > that is not considered by occasional and beginner archers who
                            practice
                            > only in their mundane clothes. Then they step up to the line once
                            a
                            > year at Pennsic and discover their garb is causing problems. I
                            often
                            > invite people to shoot in garb at my archery practices for that
                            very
                            > reason.
                            > I am by no means flat chested, and have always used a square
                            stance.
                            > In almost 50 years of shooting the bow I have not managed to thwack
                            > myself with the bowstring. I shoot ELB, modern and period recurves
                            > and do not encounter the problem. I can suggest getting to the
                            basics
                            > of foot placement and hips to make sure she is using a stance that
                            > would alleviate the string problem. Foot placement alone is not
                            > enough - she has to be sure she is not twisting her hips to place
                            her
                            > torso closer to the string. This is sometimes done by beginner
                            > archers.
                            >
                            > Laurens
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Liges <ligessac@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone
                            > considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and
                            > push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots,
                            and
                            > if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a
                            > bodice, she has no problem.
                            > >  
                            > > Liges
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                          • sorchaprechan
                            I d always heard it was the left breast. Anyway, Lady Lorelei s got it, I think. I m well endowed and have been pulling my string back to my cheek, and
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
                              I'd always heard it was the left breast. Anyway, Lady Lorelei's got
                              it, I think. I'm well endowed and have been pulling my string back to
                              my cheek, and learning to aim has been hellish. And baffling, it seems
                              like such a simple thing to do...

                              Sorcha P.

                              > >But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and
                              > >assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast
                              > >in jeopardy.
                            • Brad Boda d'Aylward
                              Late response I ve read the term stance . I ll refer to their form ....... same thing. It sounds like she has what we refer to as Bow Creep . This pulls the
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 27, 2008
                                Late response

                                I've read the term 'stance'. I'll refer to their 'form'....... same thing.

                                It sounds like she has what we refer to as 'Bow Creep'. This pulls the bow
                                stave out in front of the body and allows the bow string to come in front of
                                the body. Ladies are notorious for this if they are fighting an overly
                                strong bow weight.

                                For proper form: there should be a *straight* line from the bow hand through
                                the left shoulder to the right shoulder. And then there should be a
                                *straight* line from the arrow tip through the string hand to the right
                                elbow. No break in the string hand. This may actually move her anchor point
                                back on her face from the chin to the edge of the mouth or the jaw bone.

                                Anchor point on the face (string fingers should touch the face, chin, eye,
                                mouth, jaw, etc.) And then *pinch a quarter between the shoulder blades*.
                                Arch the back. Use the back muscles to straighten these two lines to form
                                the 'perfect' triangle. On drawing the string it will come straight into the
                                side of the archer and, upon release, go straight away from the breast. I
                                actually had an 'overly endowed' Lady draw the bottom half of the string
                                over the top half of her breast (light poundage bow)

                                Bow creep allows inconsistancy to enter an archers' form. With proper form
                                we avoid 'titty whack' and you will notice that her arrow groupings will
                                tighten up also. Her scores will go up.

                                Let us know how all this info helps.

                                Brad


                                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Boobs and Bowstrings


                                > I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
                                > bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
                                > we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
                                > and rolling her right shoulder too far back.
                                >
                                > Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?
                                >
                                > Master William, Reluctant Coach
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
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