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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Boobs and Bowstrings

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  • blkknighti@aol.com
    The individual circumstance varies but if the breast is relatively large the string shouldn t be drawn over it. The subjects stance and draw should be adjusted
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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      The individual circumstance varies but if the breast is relatively large the
      string shouldn't be drawn over it. The subjects stance and draw should be
      adjusted to draw so that the string will press against the outside of the left
      breast (if right handed). I had observed this technique taught by Len Cardinale.
      It seems to work well, some even suggest that it serves to stabilize the
      string.

      Richard

      In a message dated 11/14/08 10:54:56 AM, fern718jen@... writes:


      > I have not encountered that problem, however, One female archer I
      > know, uses a breast shield. That should solve her problem until you
      > can figure out what she's doing wrong and can correct it.  Arianna---
      > In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "McNutt Jr, William R" <mcnutt@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
      > > bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
      > > we're having trouble sorting it out.  I think she may be over-drawing
      > > and rolling her right shoulder too far back.
      > > 
      > > Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?
      > > 
      > > Master William, Reluctant Coach
      >




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    • Scott B. Jaqua
      While still a national amature archer shooting for Cal State Long beach, I knew several Olympic caliber ladies that were well endowed. The used a breast
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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        While still a national amature archer shooting for Cal State Long beach,
        I knew several Olympic caliber ladies that were well endowed. The used a
        breast protector or shield. String contact with the breast is not
        always a bad thing. If the sting contacts the side of the breast in a
        proper stance, it can actually serve as an additional reference point
        for the anchor point.

        Rather then adjusting the stance to protect the breast, I would suggest
        finding the "natural' stance and then protect the breast as required.

        The "natural"stance is determined as follows. (This example assumes a
        right handed archer, reverse the results for a left handed archer). Have
        the archer take his or her existing stance. Have them come to a full
        draw and aim as usual. Then while holding the aim, close the eyes. When
        they reopen open the eyes, determine if the aim has drifted to the left
        or the right. If the aim drifted left, close the stance slightly. If it
        drifted right open the stance slightly. Repeat this process until the
        archer can not perceive any drift. Note, any time the anchor point
        changes, this test needs to be repeated. So a solid consistent anchor is
        required for this test to yield the best results.

        Njall

        --
        Scott B. Jaqua
        Hagerson Forge
        www.hagersonforge.com
      • Sheri Rees
        I ve seen some of the responses posted and feel that I should disagree with you and them. She is not necessarily doing anything wrong with her stance, draw, or
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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          I've seen some of the responses posted and feel that I should
          disagree with you and them.
          She is not necessarily doing anything wrong with her stance, draw, or release.
          Watch her closely as she draws and shoots to see if you notice something.

          I remember having a discussion with Master Andras many years ago about stance.
          He kept telling me to stand and draw a certain way.
          I kept saying 'yeah but...' (for obvious reasons to me).
          Master John Bowslayer suggested a slight modification to that stance.
          When I come back to full draw, I shift my hips slightly back from the
          target and my shoulders slightly forward.
          This keeps the bowstring on the target side of the chest, with the
          draw coming up mostly within the arm pit.
          Note - this is not a full crouched hunting stance like my hubby uses,
          just a slight shift, barely noticeable to anyone else on the line.
          This works pretty well for me. I still occasionally straighten up
          enough that I hit something painful, but not often.

          Shadhra



          At 07:47 AM 11/14/2008, you wrote:
          >I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
          >bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
          >we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
          >and rolling her right shoulder too far back.
          >
          >Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?
          >
          >Master William, Reluctant Coach
        • eulenhorst@rosesandivy.net
          Hold on just a minute here. These are all good points but not complete or exclusive. First, the term stance needs to be defined. This post and Njall s
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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            Hold on just a minute here. These are all good points but not complete or exclusive. First, the
            term "stance" needs to be defined. This post and Njall's both address parts of "stance" but not all of
            it. Stance consists of many parts, foot position (ala Njall),balance, hip and shoulder position
            including angle, and head and neck position. In short, all elements of an archer's position prior to
            drawing. Arm position and specific anchor point then come into play. All of these can be involved
            here. The following is my process for initially positioning an archer and I seldom see any issues with
            ladies or men.

            Start by placing an arrow accross the shooting line in line with the center of the target. Place the toe
            of the forward foot against the side of the arrow and the center of the instep of the rear foot against
            the nock maintaining the feet at shoulder width apart. This gives a slightly open stance. Balance the
            body so that the archer's weight is evenly distributed between both feet and heel and ball of each foot.
            Adjust the foot placement per Njall's post. Mark foot position with powder or golf tees.

            Then stand straight with shoulders back and square to the target. The spine should be vertical. Take a
            full breath and let half of it out, keep the teeth closed but not clenched. Draw to full anchor keeping
            the arms in a horizontal plane. Establish a comfortable anchor. Once this can be repeatedly obtained
            and muscle memory has begun to be established actually drawing an arrow can begin.

            Shifting the hips and/or shoulders as mentioned below is a fine tuning effect which can be used to
            correct minor issues like this but are much more difficult to keep consistent. Using all these
            techniques is good to find what works best for the individual and all should be considered.

            I have found that going back to this often helps clear up small form flaws which creep in. I have also
            noted that this nearly always brings the string back clear of the breast. If the lady is less endowed,
            it will clear the breast entirely, if more, it will press against the side of the breast. In the rare
            case that the string just clearsor brushes the breast, a chest protector or equivalent clothing should be
            used.

            Carolus

            On Fri Nov 14 9:34 , Sheri Rees <s.l.rees@...> sent:

            > I've seen some of the responses posted and feel that I should
            >
            >disagree with you and them.
            >
            >She is not necessarily doing anything wrong with her stance, draw, or release.
            >
            >Watch her closely as she draws and shoots to see if you notice something.
            >
            >
            >
            >I remember having a discussion with Master Andras many years ago about stance.
            >
            >He kept telling me to stand and draw a certain way.
            >
            >I kept saying 'yeah but...' (for obvious reasons to me).
            >
            >Master John Bowslayer suggested a slight modification to that stance.
            >
            >When I come back to full draw, I shift my hips slightly back from the
            >
            >target and my shoulders slightly forward.
            >
            >This keeps the bowstring on the target side of the chest, with the
            >
            >draw coming up mostly within the arm pit.
            >
            >Note - this is not a full crouched hunting stance like my hubby uses,
            >
            >just a slight shift, barely noticeable to anyone else on the line.
            >
            >This works pretty well for me. I still occasionally straighten up
            >
            >enough that I hit something painful, but not often.
            >
            >
            >
            >Shadhra
            >
            >
            >
            >At 07:47 AM 11/14/2008, you wrote:
            >
            >>I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
            >
            >>bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
            >
            >>we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
            >
            >>and rolling her right shoulder too far back.
            >
            >>
            >
            >>Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?
            >
            >>
            >
            >>Master William, Reluctant Coach
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            >
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          • Katherine Baldwin
            Greetings fron Caid I am a female shooter. I tell all my female students the solutation. It s simple actually. Tell her to place the foot on the safe side of
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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              Greetings fron Caid
              I am a female shooter. I tell all my female students the solutation. It's
              simple actually. Tell her to place the foot on the "safe" side of the line
              about 2" forward of the other foot. If you are a right handed shooter that
              is the right foot.This creates a Triangle and you miss your breast. Hope
              this helps. Katherine of Anglesey
              On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 7:47 AM, McNutt Jr, William R <mcnutt@...>wrote:

              > I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
              > bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
              > we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
              > and rolling her right shoulder too far back.
              >
              > Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?
              >
              > Master William, Reluctant Coach
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Grossberg
              ... The Amazons of ancient Greece were purported to employ a proceedure which would solve this problem, but I believe that today s female archer might find it
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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                -----Original Message-----
                >From: Katherine Baldwin <misskofa@...>
                >Sent: Nov 14, 2008 1:10 PM
                >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Boobs and Bowstrings

                The Amazons of ancient Greece were purported to employ a proceedure which would solve this problem, but I believe that today's female archer might find it just a bit....ahhhh..."extreme"?! :(
                Gardr Gunnarsson


                >
                >Greetings fron Caid
                >I am a female shooter. I tell all my female students the solutation. It's
                >simple actually. Tell her to place the foot on the "safe" side of the line
                >about 2" forward of the other foot. If you are a right handed shooter that
                >is the right foot.This creates a Triangle and you miss your breast. Hope
                >this helps. Katherine of Anglesey
                >On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 7:47 AM, McNutt Jr, William R <mcnutt@...>wrote:
                >
                >> I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
                >> bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
                >> we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
                >> and rolling her right shoulder too far back.
                >>
                >> Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?
                >>
                >> Master William, Reluctant Coach
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Eadric Anstapa
                I have come across this with a few women I have coached. My experience has been to remind them that the string should be drawn into the breast and not around
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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                  I have come across this with a few women I have coached.

                  My experience has been to remind them that the string should be drawn
                  into the breast and not around the breast. The stance may need to be
                  adjusted to accommodate that.

                  As some have pointed are there are chest guards for women but they are
                  not designed to keep the string for hitting the breast. They are
                  designed so spread and soften the pressure from the string on the
                  breast. The prolonged repetition of pressure from the bowstring can
                  lead to the formation of a lump within the fatty tissue, which is
                  clinically difficult to tell apart from cancer tissue without a biopsy.

                  My experience has show that the problem of the string striking the
                  chest can often be corrected with a modified stance.

                  We all know that there are 4 basic stances for traditional standing
                  target archery.

                  The Even or Square stance where both feet are in a straight line square
                  with the shoulders. This is the stance most often taught to new archers
                  as it is the easiest to reproduce ans is very natural for many people.
                  It also makes good use of the back muscles for drawing the string.
                  However it has disadvantages that it provides the smallest base of
                  support and is therefore the least sturdy. This stance provides a
                  relatively low amount of string clearance against the chest and can be
                  troublesome for large chested shooters.

                  The Close stance is where the front foot (foot under the bow hand) is
                  moved forward. This provides a more stable support base and gives
                  better alignment of the arm and shoulder in a direct line to the
                  target. However it tends to encourage the archer the lean away form the
                  target and to overdraw the arrow. It also reduces string clearance even
                  more and the string may strike against the body. Instinctive archers
                  often have a very closed stance.

                  The problems you archer may be having might be because they have a
                  naturally Closed stance or because the Even stance just isn't working
                  well for their body style

                  Then there is the Open Stance where the front foot is moved back a bit.
                  This provides added stability over the Even stance i n the same way that
                  the Closed stance does but it also reduces the tendency to lean toward
                  the target and improves string clearance. The downside is that it does
                  not make as good a use of the back muscles and requires more arm
                  strength with is something that some women lacking arm strength might
                  find troublesome. Also because the arm is used more and the back less
                  it tends to make the upper body twist towards the target.

                  Without actually coaching your student myself, I might suggest that a
                  more open stance be tried while making sure that they have a bow that
                  they can draw without difficulty and can maintain good upper body
                  alignment. I have successfully helped women who have had trouble with
                  the string striking their breast by having them Open their stance some.
                  An Open stance is taught to many beginning archers and in fact many
                  coaches strongly recommend that beginning archers start with an Open stance.

                  Then finally ...

                  The Oblique stance is where the front foot is pointed about 45 degrees
                  toward the target rather than being kept square. This is used mainly by
                  experienced and expert archers as it is the hardest to maintain and
                  reproduce. This gives the greatest amount of clearance for the bow
                  string, gives the archer the greatest amount of target visibility,
                  provides a great amount of body stability in high winds, and keeps the
                  body in very good equilibrium. Almost never taught to new archers
                  because it can be so hard to maintain.

                  Regards,

                  -EA


                  McNutt Jr, William R wrote:
                  > I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
                  > bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
                  > we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
                  > and rolling her right shoulder too far back.
                  >
                  > Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?
                  >
                  > Master William, Reluctant Coach
                  >
                  >
                • James Koch
                  Gentlemen and Ladies, ... As a manufacturer of archery equipment, this sounds like an interesting armoring opportunity. Period documentation anyone? ... Jim
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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                    Gentlemen and Ladies,
                    >

                    >While still a national amature archer shooting for Cal State Long beach,
                    >I knew several Olympic caliber ladies that were well endowed. The used a
                    >breast protector or shield. String contact with the breast is not
                    >always a bad thing. If the sting contacts the side of the breast in a
                    >proper stance, it can actually serve as an additional reference point
                    >for the anchor point.
                    >
                    As a manufacturer of archery equipment, this sounds like an
                    interesting armoring opportunity. Period documentation anyone?
                    >
                    Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                  • jameswolfden
                    But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast in jeopardy. However, the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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                      But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and
                      assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast
                      in jeopardy. However, the legends also has it the right breast was
                      removed at an early age to encourage the body to grow the right
                      arm/shoulder muscles rather than develop the breast. In essense, it
                      was a form of pruning the human body.

                      That said, most Greek depictions of Amazons show both breasts intact.

                      In Service,
                      James

                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Michael Grossberg <geejayem@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > The Amazons of ancient Greece were purported to employ a
                      proceedure which would solve this problem, but I believe that
                      today's female archer might find it just a
                      bit....ahhhh..."extreme"?! :(
                      > Gardr Gunnarsson
                      >
                    • Liges
                      Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and push out, it would put them
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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                        Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots, and if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a bodice, she has no problem.
                         
                        Liges




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Frederick Fenters
                        Back when I first started marshalling (dirt was still a NEW THING) a young lady of my acquaintance commented that the Frisbee was the female archer s best
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 14, 2008
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                          Back when I first started marshalling (dirt was still a NEW THING) a young
                          lady of my acquaintance commented that the Frisbee was the female archer's
                          best friend. Especially tucked into her shirt!



                          Seriously, try video taping your student to look for what is causing her
                          problem. It may be that she needs to draw to her chin instead of under her
                          eye, she may be collapsing her bow shoulder, overdrawing (as you mentioned),
                          wavering (my term, I mean waving one or both hands during the draw and set),
                          or drawing in a horizontally circular motion rather than in a straight line.



                          That's all I can think of, off hand.



                          Padraig MacRaighne

                          Forester of the Greenwood Company



                          _____

                          From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of McNutt Jr, William R
                          Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:48 AM
                          To: sca-archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Boobs and Bowstrings



                          I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
                          bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
                          we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
                          and rolling her right shoulder too far back.

                          Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?

                          Master William, Reluctant Coach

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • loreleiElkins@aol.com
                          Greetings to the list from one reasonably well endowed female archer. When I shoot, and when I teach others to shoot, including a good number of women, I
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 15, 2008
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                            Greetings to the list from one reasonably well endowed female archer. When
                            I shoot, and when I teach others to shoot, including a good number of women,
                            I have them draw the bow string to the left edge of their left breast, (for a
                            right handed person.) The string should NEVER be drawn so her breast is in
                            between the string and down range. OUCH! If they are drawing in front of
                            their breast, their stance is way off. Have them stand correctly, shoulders
                            back, draw the string only to the back edge of their breast. One thing I find
                            helpful to get the right stance is to swing my right hip back just a little.
                            This seems to get everything out of the way and my stance nice and straight.

                            Its working for me and others I've taught. I'm sure others have different
                            suggestions. Your archer friend may want to try a few things and see which
                            one works best for her. It is very unhealthy to damage breast tissue and it
                            should not happen, even occasionally.

                            Lady Lorelei Greenleaf
                            Crois Brigte, Sacred Stone, Atlantia
                            Phoenix Guard
                            NC Regional Marshal
                            Sacred Stone Yeoman
                            Atlantian Yew Bow


                            In a message dated 11/14/2008 10:48:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                            mcnutt@... writes:

                            I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
                            bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
                            we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
                            and rolling her right shoulder too far back.

                            Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?

                            Master William, Reluctant Coach




                            Lorelei
                            **************You Rock! One month of free movies delivered by mail from
                            blockbuster.com
                            (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212639737x1200784900/aol?redir=https://www.blockbuster.com/signup/y/reg/p.26978/r.email_footer)


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Michael Grossberg
                            ... That s probably because the Greeks glorified the human body, and to depict a nude female without two breasts would be against their vision of beauty and
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 15, 2008
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                              -----Original Message-----
                              >From: jameswolfden <jameswolfden@...>
                              >Sent: Nov 14, 2008 2:59 PM
                              >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Boobs and Bowstrings
                              >
                              >But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and
                              >assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast
                              >in jeopardy. However, the legends also has it the right breast was
                              >removed at an early age to encourage the body to grow the right
                              >arm/shoulder muscles rather than develop the breast. In essense, it
                              >was a form of pruning the human body.
                              >
                              >That said, most Greek depictions of Amazons show both breasts intact.
                              >
                              >In Service,
                              >James


                              That's probably because the Greeks glorified the human body, and to depict a nude female without two breasts would be against their vision of beauty and perfection.
                              Gardr Gunnarsson
                            • John and Carol Atkins
                              I have worked with a few ladies who have experienced this problem. The solution was really quite simple. If the lady stands with her shoulders perpendicular
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 15, 2008
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                                I have worked with a few ladies who have experienced this problem. The
                                solution was really quite simple. If the lady stands with her
                                shoulders perpendicular to the flight line to the target, begin the
                                draw with the bow hand extended towards the target. As she draws the
                                bow the string will rest on the target side of the "problem area". I
                                have seen many new archers draw incorrectly and suffer the
                                consequences. The improper draw, in this case, is to stand in a very
                                open stance, draw the bow, then settle back in a manner that causes the
                                drawn bow string to include the "problem area" resulting in a painful
                                release.

                                cog
                              • Laura
                                Are you sure you don t have this backwards? I have seen women in bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so pushed out up front. I have
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
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                                  Are you sure you don't have this backwards? I have seen women in
                                  bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so pushed
                                  out up front. I have encountered many cases of garb interference at
                                  the lines - poufy and / or long flowy sleeves, lots of chains, beads,
                                  necklaces, as well as bodices pushing the ladies up & out all have
                                  caused string interference and entanglements. This is just something
                                  that is not considered by occasional and beginner archers who practice
                                  only in their mundane clothes. Then they step up to the line once a
                                  year at Pennsic and discover their garb is causing problems. I often
                                  invite people to shoot in garb at my archery practices for that very
                                  reason.
                                  I am by no means flat chested, and have always used a square stance.
                                  In almost 50 years of shooting the bow I have not managed to thwack
                                  myself with the bowstring. I shoot ELB, modern and period recurves
                                  and do not encounter the problem. I can suggest getting to the basics
                                  of foot placement and hips to make sure she is using a stance that
                                  would alleviate the string problem. Foot placement alone is not
                                  enough - she has to be sure she is not twisting her hips to place her
                                  torso closer to the string. This is sometimes done by beginner
                                  archers.

                                  Laurens


                                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Liges <ligessac@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone
                                  considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and
                                  push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots, and
                                  if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a
                                  bodice, she has no problem.
                                  >  
                                  > Liges
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Nest verch Tangwistel
                                  I have been running an archery practice for a long time. When I get a new woman come to practice, I just tell her to keep the stance square and bring the
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
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                                    I have been running an archery practice for a long time. When I get a new woman come to practice, I just tell her to keep the stance square and bring the string into the side of the breast not across the front. Easy enough if you keep the bow arm shoulder far enough to the front. That simple advice has proved to be just about all that is needed. I can't think of a single example of a whacking at our practice, and from what I have noticed they rarely happen without comment.
                                     
                                    We hold a couple of practices a year that are designed for people to try out garb. our usual practice is not is garb, but at these it is manditory.
                                     
                                    Nest

                                    --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Laura <Ladybaron@...> wrote:

                                    From: Laura <Ladybaron@...>
                                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Boobs and Bowstrings
                                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 4:05 AM






                                    Are you sure you don't have this backwards? I have seen women in
                                    bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so pushed
                                    out up front. I have encountered many cases of garb interference at
                                    the lines - poufy and / or long flowy sleeves, lots of chains, beads,
                                    necklaces, as well as bodices pushing the ladies up & out all have
                                    caused string interference and entanglements. This is just something
                                    that is not considered by occasional and beginner archers who practice
                                    only in their mundane clothes. Then they step up to the line once a
                                    year at Pennsic and discover their garb is causing problems. I often
                                    invite people to shoot in garb at my archery practices for that very
                                    reason.
                                    I am by no means flat chested, and have always used a square stance.
                                    In almost 50 years of shooting the bow I have not managed to thwack
                                    myself with the bowstring. I shoot ELB, modern and period recurves
                                    and do not encounter the problem. I can suggest getting to the basics
                                    of foot placement and hips to make sure she is using a stance that
                                    would alleviate the string problem. Foot placement alone is not
                                    enough - she has to be sure she is not twisting her hips to place her
                                    torso closer to the string. This is sometimes done by beginner
                                    archers.

                                    Laurens

                                    --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, Liges <ligessac@.. .> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone
                                    considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and
                                    push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots, and
                                    if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a
                                    bodice, she has no problem.
                                    >  
                                    > Liges
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >


















                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • tibbiecroser
                                    It might depend on the type of bodice. Many bodices do push the breasts up and out, but some historically styled bodices are designed to flatten the breasts
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
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                                      It might depend on the type of bodice. Many bodices do push the
                                      breasts up and out, but some historically styled bodices are designed
                                      to flatten the breasts and push them off to the sides.

                                      For women who feel they need chest protection, fencing and martial
                                      arts vendors carry both molded one-piece chest protectors and plastic
                                      breast cups that are designed to be inserted into a sports bra.

                                      P.S. To introduce myself, I'm Tibbie Croser, a recently authorized
                                      (female) rapier fighter in Atlantia who's interested in taking up
                                      target archery. I don't anticipate having boob problems myself,
                                      because I'm only an A cup.

                                      Tibbie Croser, Barony of Storvik, Atlantia

                                      In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" <Ladybaron@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Are you sure you don't have this backwards? I have seen women in
                                      > bodices hit themselves with the bowstring becuase they were so
                                      pushed
                                      > out up front. I have encountered many cases of garb interference
                                      at
                                      > the lines - poufy and / or long flowy sleeves, lots of chains,
                                      beads,
                                      > necklaces, as well as bodices pushing the ladies up & out all have
                                      > caused string interference and entanglements. This is just
                                      something
                                      > that is not considered by occasional and beginner archers who
                                      practice
                                      > only in their mundane clothes. Then they step up to the line once
                                      a
                                      > year at Pennsic and discover their garb is causing problems. I
                                      often
                                      > invite people to shoot in garb at my archery practices for that
                                      very
                                      > reason.
                                      > I am by no means flat chested, and have always used a square
                                      stance.
                                      > In almost 50 years of shooting the bow I have not managed to thwack
                                      > myself with the bowstring. I shoot ELB, modern and period recurves
                                      > and do not encounter the problem. I can suggest getting to the
                                      basics
                                      > of foot placement and hips to make sure she is using a stance that
                                      > would alleviate the string problem. Foot placement alone is not
                                      > enough - she has to be sure she is not twisting her hips to place
                                      her
                                      > torso closer to the string. This is sometimes done by beginner
                                      > archers.
                                      >
                                      > Laurens
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Liges <ligessac@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Forgive me for pointing out something so basic, but has anyone
                                      > considered her garb? If what she is wearing is designed to lift and
                                      > push out, it would put them more in danger.  My Lady wife shoots,
                                      and
                                      > if in regular clothes, has a problem with hitting, if she wears a
                                      > bodice, she has no problem.
                                      > >  
                                      > > Liges
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • sorchaprechan
                                      I d always heard it was the left breast. Anyway, Lady Lorelei s got it, I think. I m well endowed and have been pulling my string back to my cheek, and
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Nov 17, 2008
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                                        I'd always heard it was the left breast. Anyway, Lady Lorelei's got
                                        it, I think. I'm well endowed and have been pulling my string back to
                                        my cheek, and learning to aim has been hellish. And baffling, it seems
                                        like such a simple thing to do...

                                        Sorcha P.

                                        > >But the legend is that the Amazons removed the right breast and
                                        > >assuming a right handed draw, this would still put the left breast
                                        > >in jeopardy.
                                      • Brad Boda d'Aylward
                                        Late response I ve read the term stance . I ll refer to their form ....... same thing. It sounds like she has what we refer to as Bow Creep . This pulls the
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Nov 27, 2008
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                                          Late response

                                          I've read the term 'stance'. I'll refer to their 'form'....... same thing.

                                          It sounds like she has what we refer to as 'Bow Creep'. This pulls the bow
                                          stave out in front of the body and allows the bow string to come in front of
                                          the body. Ladies are notorious for this if they are fighting an overly
                                          strong bow weight.

                                          For proper form: there should be a *straight* line from the bow hand through
                                          the left shoulder to the right shoulder. And then there should be a
                                          *straight* line from the arrow tip through the string hand to the right
                                          elbow. No break in the string hand. This may actually move her anchor point
                                          back on her face from the chin to the edge of the mouth or the jaw bone.

                                          Anchor point on the face (string fingers should touch the face, chin, eye,
                                          mouth, jaw, etc.) And then *pinch a quarter between the shoulder blades*.
                                          Arch the back. Use the back muscles to straighten these two lines to form
                                          the 'perfect' triangle. On drawing the string it will come straight into the
                                          side of the archer and, upon release, go straight away from the breast. I
                                          actually had an 'overly endowed' Lady draw the bottom half of the string
                                          over the top half of her breast (light poundage bow)

                                          Bow creep allows inconsistancy to enter an archers' form. With proper form
                                          we avoid 'titty whack' and you will notice that her arrow groupings will
                                          tighten up also. Her scores will go up.

                                          Let us know how all this info helps.

                                          Brad


                                          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Boobs and Bowstrings


                                          > I have a student who complains of hitting her left breast with the
                                          > bowstring on release. Obviously, there's a problem with her stance, but
                                          > we're having trouble sorting it out. I think she may be over-drawing
                                          > and rolling her right shoulder too far back.
                                          >
                                          > Has anyone else run into this when teaching women?
                                          >
                                          > Master William, Reluctant Coach
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
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