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Re: [SCA-Archery] uumm , new rant ? was a short "banning modern bows" rant

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  • ld.blackmoon
    greetings this started out as a simple reply, but seems to have turned into a multi focus rant . if not interested in my rants, please delete this email , this
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 17, 2008

      this started out as a simple reply, but seems to have turned into a multi focus rant .
      if not interested in my rants, please delete this email , this could very well be another episode of " leave it to blackmoon " where blackmoon while trying to help , sticks his foot in his mouth , and screws everything up ; )

      >One more thing and I'll go away from this discussion for good: For those who don't think an arrow cannot penetrate armour...think again; you are incorrect in your assumption . A properly constructed arrow with a properly constructed sharp tip and the appropriate draw-force (translates to psi, for those of us who are/were science geeks) can open armour like it was a tin can...chain mail included.

      well it is easy to see from their stand point of shooting a modern cedar arrow with soft iron heads at modern metals shaped like period armor , wont ever penetrate far enough to cause damage. they also tend to forget that modern antibiotics did not exist .so any puncture had a high probability of getting infected , especially in battle field conditions.
      but if they were to use heavy war arrow shafts of hardwood and a 4" bodkin from a 100 # + bow , especialy arced high in the air so that it also had gravity helping it , into period armor, they would have to admit that not only could it kill out right, it could kill you much later as the dirty arrowhead that was still partially in you festered and rotted ..
      why do you think archers were so feared and dispised ?? it wasnt just because their feet smelled , or they were poorly dressed .
      it was because a skilled archer could take you out no matter how many knights you hid behind .
      that is also why they believe us to be unchivalrous , and cowardly , because we could carry out our kings wishes with out dieing first , much like spearmen / polearm people etc. in other words we were more effective than they were and they knew it , just like today , if they hire a new guy that uses new techniques etc and is more effective than you are at work , you would fear losing your job, your benifits, your perks, etc.
      so fear still motivates those in reallife as well as the sca.

      in the begining you had to use brute force to become a knight, later in period , you had to be a gentleman and force was reserved for defending your honor etc,or have enough money to buy knighthood.
      there are those in the sca that believe the only measure of peerage should be through brute force, luckily those are slowly fading away , and other voices are begining to be heard and considered , thus we now have laurels to elevate sciences and research and pelicans to elevate service to the society .
      who knows what the future holds , perhaps a peerage for those who both master martial skills and serve the society ?? but are looked at by neither ??

      the application of brains over brawn has always been seen as unchivalrous and an unfair advantage ..
      i will however admit that the future of war looks to be robots and long range missiles where the participants never see one another ,so maybe by then everyone will be considered unchivalrous.

      be safe, be happy, have fun

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Ray Kelly
      To: sca-archery@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: ozymandias1951@... ; Ellyne MacCruimmen
      Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:44 PM
      Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] a short "banning modern bows" rant

      All, In deference to the good black knight, my documented comments regarding types of bows historically used in Europe and Near-Asia throughout history, including the BCE, are acurate. Even so, they were made to offer a point...and, at the risk if really getting people angry at me, which IS NOT my point in this treatise, it was my understanding, upon joining the SCA, that it is a historical kind-of-reinactment/educational group wherein the members lived a 'weekend' (or greater) lifestyle of the 'middle ages' as 'they should have been.' This is, in and of itself, subject to personal interpretation, which, by me, is fine. And again, to me personally, I couldn't care-a-less about peerage, as long as people are enjoying what they are doing and are trying to be as "period" as they can, so my comments on that issue would be both complacent and ignorant.

      To this end, the people I have met that actually have lived in or near midieval towns in Europe have a very good handle on the realities and the romance of the era and they do a phenomenal job of "recreating" "period" everything. Detailed knowledge of specific cultures is extrordinary as compared to the general U. S. population. This organization, as I have understood, is supposed to be enjoyable, while maintaining a phenominal safety rating and it appears to be. Bravo to all past and current members!!!!

      To suppose that the SCA or any other 'American' organization accurately reflects pre-1700's 'period' is disingenuous to historical fact; we do not have the ability, nor I think the desire, to be completely historically accurate. For example: 1) Medieval Europe was restricted to Western Continent Feudal Systems (including the British Isles and Ireland) and some imperial enterprizes; it was not a world-wide system and therefore cannot be accurately utilized when "personas" come from outside of the Western European Genre; 2) Animals were extensively used in labor, transportation, food, clothing, etc.; they were one of the the basis of civilization (for a very accurate whiff of what it smelled like, visit Crescent City, California...where the Brown Pelicans hang out...OMG!!!). In my humble neophyte opinion, people do and should do the best they can, according to their conscience, dictates, and abilities.

      And to that end...personaly, I don't have a problem with safety briefings anytime their is potential harm involved. IMO, it's pretty simple: "This is the line. Do not cross the line unless someone in charge says something like 'OK, cross the line' or 'OK, get your arrows.' Do not shoot when others are in front of the line. Don't shoot unless someone in charge says something like 'range clear' or "OK, you can shoot." That is a target (pointing at a target). Shoot at it and only at it. This is a bow; this is an arrow: you put the slot at the end of your arrow (where those pretty feathers are) over the string, making sure the string is inside of the slot; pull the string, with the arrow going back with the string; aim and let go. If you hit the target, 'joyous noise.' If not, try again! If you have any questions, ask."

      One more thing and I'll go away from this discussion for good: For those who don't think an arrow cannot penetrate armour...think again; you are incorrect in your assumption. A properly constructed arrow with a properly constructed sharp tip and the appropriate draw-force (translates to psi, for those of us who are/were science geeks) can open armour like it was a tin can...chain mail included.

      IYS Always,


      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.comFrom: blkknighti@...: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:57:10 -0400Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] a short 'banning modern bows' rant

      To start I'd like to put some terminology out so that this post is better understood as was put to me by Len Cardinale (internationally recognised coach, Bowhunters Hall of fame, Archery Hall of Fame etc etc been studying archery long than most of us have been alive).the historic bows of the Huns, mongols etc are more properly referred to as 'levered bows' as the 'syha' (or similar attribute) does is not designed to flex but act as a lever off the curved section of the limb. Not a recurve.Bow which have curved limbs where the string does not rest upon the limb when not drawn are 'reflexed'. Not a recurve.Bows that have a curvature in which the string rests upon the limb when not drawn are indeed true 'recurves' and were usually composite in construction.NONE of the above have the same shooting characteristics as the modern fiberglas recurve. Generally they did not have shelves. Due to the wonders of modern materials and technology, Fiberglas and construction makes them incomperable to the afore mentioned bows.While 'recurves' may be period, modern recurves are not. ( and they don't even look period at ten feet per the 'ten foot rule')Decent period bows are readily available without spending 'mass amounts of money' and often less than the money spent modern recurves.In a message dated 8/16/08 1:50:51 AM, rodrigo_belmonte@... writes:> For my part, I will gladly give up my 55# 'modern' recurve.. just as soon > as someone else who is worried about the historical accuracy of MY bow wants > to go spend the mass amounts of money on buying me a new one. Oh, and Isabel, > my wife, needs one too. While yer at it, you should probably get a couple of > sheep, so you can raise em, shear em, card the wool, spin the yarn, weave the > fabric, and make me a new set of garb.. and of course, since I am a fighting > archer, ya might wanna get a couple of cows to butcher to make me some new > leather, as I am pretty sure the awesome quiver I was given as a gift isnt > exactly fitting to my persona.. oh and grab a new pick while you are at it, to > go mine the ores to smelt and smith into armour... Have that to me by, say, > Gulf Wars, and I'll gladly give you my bow. No? well then, sorry.. I'll just > keep using what I have, and we can all be happy, eh?> This is just silly. Noone expects or could achieve absolute authenticity and it varies for individuals. What is expected is a reasonable attempt to adhere to the constructs of 'period' as outlined by the organization. Not just flipping the bird to anyone who suggests moving our requirement to better fulfill the organizational goals. Especially in the interest of fairness and equity where head to head competions include a technological imbalance that takes the 'fun' out for some of those who strive to use period equiptment. It's like bringing a hardball to a softball game and insisting that you can and will use it. Sheesh.> Seriously, folks.. relax. We are all in the SCA to have fun, and hang out > with friends, while trying to recreate the Middle Ages as they should have > been, not as they actually were.> I dunno ...maybe you've misunderstood and joined the wrong group. I believe that nowhere in the SCA governing documents does this appear. One could postulate automatic firearms 'should ' have been there- what FUN! We could use automatic feed paintball guns!!! That's just BS. Right on the SCA home page: 'The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe.'> For my part, it doesnt really matter to me if someone shows up with a > fiberglass bow, paited bright pink with Marvin the Martin stickers all over it, > as long as they get the chance to toss some sharp pointy sticks at the target, > and get to have fun. I mean, come on, thats what this is all about, right??> No... thats what mundane Archery clubs are for. I belong to one myself but SCA and all historic re-creation groups are for reseachering and re-creating specific time periods which is what many of us enjoy in and of itself.This all being said, I too don't support 'banning' modern recurves yet I believe if you want to compete or gain accolade in a group like the SCA you need to do you very best to adhere and embrace the spirit of the stated purpose of the organization. If you want to just shoot what ever you have and hang out with friends do that but I'd love to see you join in the fun of period archery.just my buck three eighty...Richard**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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