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a short "banning modern bows" rant

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  • Rodrigo Belmonte
    For my part, I will gladly give up my 55# modern recurve.. just as soon as someone else who is worried about the historical accuracy of MY bow wants to go
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 15, 2008
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      For my part, I will gladly give up my 55# "modern" recurve.. just as soon as someone else who is worried about the historical accuracy of MY bow wants to go spend the mass amounts of money on buying me a new one. Oh, and Isabel, my wife, needs one too. While yer at it, you should probably get a couple of sheep, so you can raise em, shear em, card the wool, spin the yarn, weave the fabric, and make me a new set of garb.. and of course, since I am a fighting archer, ya might wanna get a couple of cows to butcher to make me some new leather, as I am pretty sure the awesome quiver I was given as a gift isnt exactly fitting to my persona.. oh and grab a new pick while you are at it, to go mine the ores to smelt and smith into armour... Have that to me by, say, Gulf Wars, and I'll gladly give you my bow. No? well then, sorry.. I'll just keep using what I have, and we can all be happy, eh?
      Seriously, folks.. relax. We are all in the SCA to have fun, and hang out with friends, while trying to recreate the Middle Ages as they should have been, not as they actually were. For my part, it doesnt really matter to me if someone shows up with a fiberglass bow, paited bright pink with Marvin the Martin stickers all over it, as long as they get the chance to toss some sharp pointy sticks at the target, and get to have fun. I mean, come on, thats what this is all about, right??
       
      :steps off his soap-box, and goes back to lurking quietly::
      In service to the Dream,
       
      Rodrigo Belmonte
      Oakheart Company of Archers
      Shire of Oakheart
      Kingdom of Calontir




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • blkknighti@aol.com
      To start I d like to put some terminology out so that this post is better understood as was put to me by Len Cardinale (internationally recognised coach,
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 16, 2008
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        To start I'd like to put some terminology out so that this post is better
        understood as was put to me by Len Cardinale (internationally recognised coach,
        Bowhunters Hall of fame, Archery Hall of Fame etc etc been studying archery
        long than most of us have been alive).
        the historic bows of the Huns, mongols etc are more properly referred to as
        "levered bows" as the "syha" (or similar attribute) does is not designed to
        flex but act as a lever off the curved section of the limb. Not a recurve.
        Bow which have curved limbs where the string does not rest upon the limb when
        not drawn are "reflexed". Not a recurve.
        Bows that have a curvature in which the string rests upon the limb when not
        drawn are indeed true "recurves" and were usually composite in construction.
        NONE of the above have the same shooting characteristics as the modern
        fiberglas recurve. Generally they did not have shelves. Due to the wonders of modern
        materials and technology, Fiberglas and construction makes them incomperable
        to the afore mentioned bows.
        While "recurves" may be period, modern recurves are not. ( and they don't
        even look period at ten feet per the "ten foot rule")
        Decent period bows are readily available without spending "mass amounts of
        money" and often less than the money spent modern recurves.

        In a message dated 8/16/08 1:50:51 AM, rodrigo_belmonte@... writes:


        > For my part, I will gladly give up my 55# "modern" recurve.. just as soon
        > as someone else who is worried about the historical accuracy of MY bow wants
        > to go spend the mass amounts of money on buying me a new one. Oh, and Isabel,
        > my wife, needs one too. While yer at it, you should probably get a couple of
        > sheep, so you can raise em, shear em, card the wool, spin the yarn, weave the
        > fabric, and make me a new set of garb.. and of course, since I am a fighting
        > archer, ya might wanna get a couple of cows to butcher to make me some new
        > leather, as I am pretty sure the awesome quiver I was given as a gift isnt
        > exactly fitting to my persona.. oh and grab a new pick while you are at it, to
        > go mine the ores to smelt and smith into armour... Have that to me by, say,
        > Gulf Wars, and I'll gladly give you my bow. No? well then, sorry.. I'll just
        > keep using what I have, and we can all be happy, eh?
        >
        This is just silly. Noone expects or could achieve absolute authenticity and
        it varies for individuals. What is expected is a reasonable attempt to adhere
        to the constructs of "period" as outlined by the organization. Not just
        flipping the bird to anyone who suggests moving our requirement to better fulfill
        the organizational goals. Especially in the interest of fairness and equity
        where head to head competions include a technological imbalance that takes the
        "fun" out for some of those who strive to use period equiptment. It's like
        bringing a hardball to a softball game and insisting that you can and will use it.
        Sheesh.

        > Seriously, folks.. relax. We are all in the SCA to have fun, and hang out
        > with friends, while trying to recreate the Middle Ages as they should have
        > been, not as they actually were.
        >
        I dunno ...maybe you've misunderstood and joined the wrong group. I believe
        that nowhere in the SCA governing documents does this appear. One could
        postulate automatic firearms "should " have been there- what FUN! We could use
        automatic feed paintball guns!!! That's just BS. Right on the SCA home page: "The
        SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating
        the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe."

        > For my part, it doesnt really matter to me if someone shows up with a
        > fiberglass bow, paited bright pink with Marvin the Martin stickers all over it,
        > as long as they get the chance to toss some sharp pointy sticks at the target,
        > and get to have fun. I mean, come on, thats what this is all about, right??
        >
        No... thats what mundane Archery clubs are for. I belong to one myself but
        SCA and all historic re-creation groups are for reseachering and re-creating
        specific time periods which is what many of us enjoy in and of itself.
        This all being said, I too don't support "banning" modern recurves yet I
        believe if you want to compete or gain accolade in a group like the SCA you need
        to do you very best to adhere and embrace the spirit of the stated purpose of
        the organization. If you want to just shoot what ever you have and hang out
        with friends do that but I'd love to see you join in the fun of period archery.

        just my buck three eighty...
        Richard





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      • Michelle
        but SCA and all historic re-creation groups are for reseaching and re- creating specific time periods which is what many of us enjoy in and of itself. Not
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 16, 2008
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          "but SCA and all historic re-creation groups are for reseaching and re-
          creating specific time periods which is what many of us enjoy in and of
          itself."

          Not everyone is in the SCA for that. My wife and I relocated, left all
          our old friends behind, and had trouble finding the right kind in our
          new city. We needed a social device to meet and make new friends. I had
          been a heavy wpns fighter some 20 years ago in the SCA, had fond
          memories of my group, and convinced her to jump back in with me.

          We were fortunate - Atlantia has a great archery community and we
          inadvertently fell in one of the prime groups, who's motto is: "Welcome
          to Roxbury Mill, here's your bow".

          I was hooked on archery in a matter of weeks. Didn't expect that. Shot
          up from beginner to Bowman Elite in 4 months. Even better, since my
          wife never participated in organized sports in her youth, archery
          became a great venue for her to gain basic confidence skills in
          something athletic. It gets us out of the house on weekends, and her
          friends are all jealous that she shares such a fun hobby with her
          husband. We just got back from our first Pennsic. Had a blast.

          In the year that I've been shooting, I've had 4 bows either explode or
          delam on me. Thank god 2 were new and still under warranty. I couldn't
          afford to play otherwise. I doubt 3 Rivers is well-stocked with period
          bows, and I know my wife would become frustrated with archery and quit,
          if thats all she was allowed to use.

          So in short, I rejoined the SCA only to become addicted to archery. One
          drives the other. I have no interest in joining a "shooting club"
          instead. If the SCA bans modern recurves, we will lose interest in
          both. That would be unfortunate.
        • Ben Grant
          Period Archery was always my ultimate goal, but modern equipment made it possible by keeping me active until my skill set and knowledge could catch up with my
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 16, 2008
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            Period Archery was always my ultimate goal, but modern equipment
            made it possible by keeping me active until my skill set and knowledge
            could catch up with my intentions.

            I had tried once before to make a longbow from a board but, the
            exercise ended in splinters and frustration. I decided that a modern
            recurve was both more forgiving of user error and immediately
            available so I should probably start there. Nothing fancy just a
            bow of my own. A starting point. So I bought a 30# take down recurve
            on clearance at Galyans and stripped off all the little knurls & knobs
            and such. And ordered up some cheapy arrows online. The more archery
            I did, the deeper my understanding became. It was this little recurve
            that opened the door for me to this grand obsession.

            A little more than four years later, I make my own arrows &
            bowstrings, and shoot a #50 Period Flatbow which was actually less
            expensive than the little recurve. It was a pre-tillered U-Finish-It
            kit. Basically a working blank with the final touch up work left to
            the buyer. And after the initial investment of a few specialized
            tools, my arrows are of better quality and much more affordable (if
            you can make them, you can re-make them!)

            I will shoot the thirty-pounder when the weather prohibits using my
            self bow. And I still find it enjoyable, although I have by no means
            mastered it. But at the risk of offending some, I must say that it
            "feels" a little bit too much like "cheating", like I've been given an
            unfair advantage that somehow robs me of the true experience that I am
            seeking.

            It doesn't bother me or irritate me when others use modern
            bows (recurve and/or synthetic longbow), and I do not look down on
            them for doing so. However, I can not deny the strong feelings of
            kinship and admiration whenever I see another archer who has made the
            effort to Chase the Dream and embrace a Period bow.

            Beinir þunnkárr
          • Ray Kelly
            All, In deference to the good black knight, my documented comments regarding types of bows historically used in Europe and Near-Asia throughout history,
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 17, 2008
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              All, In deference to the good black knight, my documented comments regarding types of bows historically used in Europe and Near-Asia throughout history, including the BCE, are acurate. Even so, they were made to offer a point...and, at the risk if really getting people angry at me, which IS NOT my point in this treatise, it was my understanding, upon joining the SCA, that it is a historical kind-of-reinactment/educational group wherein the members lived a 'weekend' (or greater) lifestyle of the 'middle ages' as 'they should have been.' This is, in and of itself, subject to personal interpretation, which, by me, is fine. And again, to me personally, I couldn't care-a-less about peerage, as long as people are enjoying what they are doing and are trying to be as "period" as they can, so my comments on that issue would be both complacent and ignorant.

              To this end, the people I have met that actually have lived in or near midieval towns in Europe have a very good handle on the realities and the romance of the era and they do a phenomenal job of "recreating" "period" everything. Detailed knowledge of specific cultures is extrordinary as compared to the general U. S. population. This organization, as I have understood, is supposed to be enjoyable, while maintaining a phenominal safety rating and it appears to be. Bravo to all past and current members!!!!

              To suppose that the SCA or any other 'American' organization accurately reflects pre-1700's 'period' is disingenuous to historical fact; we do not have the ability, nor I think the desire, to be completely historically accurate. For example: 1) Medieval Europe was restricted to Western Continent Feudal Systems (including the British Isles and Ireland) and some imperial enterprizes; it was not a world-wide system and therefore cannot be accurately utilized when "personas" come from outside of the Western European Genre; 2) Animals were extensively used in labor, transportation, food, clothing, etc.; they were one of the the basis of civilization (for a very accurate whiff of what it smelled like, visit Crescent City, California...where the Brown Pelicans hang out...OMG!!!). In my humble neophyte opinion, people do and should do the best they can, according to their conscience, dictates, and abilities.

              And to that end...personaly, I don't have a problem with safety briefings anytime their is potential harm involved. IMO, it's pretty simple: "This is the line. Do not cross the line unless someone in charge says something like 'OK, cross the line' or 'OK, get your arrows.' Do not shoot when others are in front of the line. Don't shoot unless someone in charge says something like 'range clear' or "OK, you can shoot." That is a target (pointing at a target). Shoot at it and only at it. This is a bow; this is an arrow: you put the slot at the end of your arrow (where those pretty feathers are) over the string, making sure the string is inside of the slot; pull the string, with the arrow going back with the string; aim and let go. If you hit the target, 'joyous noise.' If not, try again! If you have any questions, ask."

              One more thing and I'll go away from this discussion for good: For those who don't think an arrow cannot penetrate armour...think again; you are incorrect in your assumption. A properly constructed arrow with a properly constructed sharp tip and the appropriate draw-force (translates to psi, for those of us who are/were science geeks) can open armour like it was a tin can...chain mail included.

              IYS Always,

              RayKelly



              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.comFrom: blkknighti@...: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:57:10 -0400Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] a short 'banning modern bows' rant



              To start I'd like to put some terminology out so that this post is better understood as was put to me by Len Cardinale (internationally recognised coach, Bowhunters Hall of fame, Archery Hall of Fame etc etc been studying archery long than most of us have been alive).the historic bows of the Huns, mongols etc are more properly referred to as 'levered bows' as the 'syha' (or similar attribute) does is not designed to flex but act as a lever off the curved section of the limb. Not a recurve.Bow which have curved limbs where the string does not rest upon the limb when not drawn are 'reflexed'. Not a recurve.Bows that have a curvature in which the string rests upon the limb when not drawn are indeed true 'recurves' and were usually composite in construction.NONE of the above have the same shooting characteristics as the modern fiberglas recurve. Generally they did not have shelves. Due to the wonders of modern materials and technology, Fiberglas and construction makes them incomperable to the afore mentioned bows.While 'recurves' may be period, modern recurves are not. ( and they don't even look period at ten feet per the 'ten foot rule')Decent period bows are readily available without spending 'mass amounts of money' and often less than the money spent modern recurves.In a message dated 8/16/08 1:50:51 AM, rodrigo_belmonte@... writes:> For my part, I will gladly give up my 55# 'modern' recurve.. just as soon > as someone else who is worried about the historical accuracy of MY bow wants > to go spend the mass amounts of money on buying me a new one. Oh, and Isabel, > my wife, needs one too. While yer at it, you should probably get a couple of > sheep, so you can raise em, shear em, card the wool, spin the yarn, weave the > fabric, and make me a new set of garb.. and of course, since I am a fighting > archer, ya might wanna get a couple of cows to butcher to make me some new > leather, as I am pretty sure the awesome quiver I was given as a gift isnt > exactly fitting to my persona.. oh and grab a new pick while you are at it, to > go mine the ores to smelt and smith into armour... Have that to me by, say, > Gulf Wars, and I'll gladly give you my bow. No? well then, sorry.. I'll just > keep using what I have, and we can all be happy, eh?> This is just silly. Noone expects or could achieve absolute authenticity and it varies for individuals. What is expected is a reasonable attempt to adhere to the constructs of 'period' as outlined by the organization. Not just flipping the bird to anyone who suggests moving our requirement to better fulfill the organizational goals. Especially in the interest of fairness and equity where head to head competions include a technological imbalance that takes the 'fun' out for some of those who strive to use period equiptment. It's like bringing a hardball to a softball game and insisting that you can and will use it. Sheesh.> Seriously, folks.. relax. We are all in the SCA to have fun, and hang out > with friends, while trying to recreate the Middle Ages as they should have > been, not as they actually were.> I dunno ...maybe you've misunderstood and joined the wrong group. I believe that nowhere in the SCA governing documents does this appear. One could postulate automatic firearms 'should ' have been there- what FUN! We could use automatic feed paintball guns!!! That's just BS. Right on the SCA home page: 'The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe.'> For my part, it doesnt really matter to me if someone shows up with a > fiberglass bow, paited bright pink with Marvin the Martin stickers all over it, > as long as they get the chance to toss some sharp pointy sticks at the target, > and get to have fun. I mean, come on, thats what this is all about, right??> No... thats what mundane Archery clubs are for. I belong to one myself but SCA and all historic re-creation groups are for reseachering and re-creating specific time periods which is what many of us enjoy in and of itself.This all being said, I too don't support 'banning' modern recurves yet I believe if you want to compete or gain accolade in a group like the SCA you need to do you very best to adhere and embrace the spirit of the stated purpose of the organization. If you want to just shoot what ever you have and hang out with friends do that but I'd love to see you join in the fun of period archery.just my buck three eighty...Richard**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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            • Carolus
              This, in essence summarizes the situation when I joined as well. Our events were costumed theme parties where we tried to evoke an image of period in order
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 17, 2008
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                This, in essence summarizes the situation when I joined as well. Our
                events were costumed theme parties where we tried to evoke an image
                of period in order share what we learned in an atmosphere evoking the
                period. I have never seen any official statement or policy changing
                this nor have I seen any widespread organic movement to do so. Only
                within the archery community do I see any call for regulatory
                enforcement of re-enactment style policies.

                Many references are made to the rapier community and their move to
                more period appearance yet they have no such policies or rules, only
                leading by example. One of the things which has led to their success
                is the fact that they do not have to worry about using period
                equipment, they are perfectly happy using modern fencing gear. Our
                difficulty is that we do not move quickly across a field with a
                competition over in a matter of minutes, modern gear quickly out of
                sight. We stand in full view, as still as possible for extended
                periods of time allowing all to observe us in detail. Our equipment
                must remain setup and is difficult to conceal when not in
                use. Additionally, the rapier community have a more concentrated
                sense of time, the weapon they represent in use for a scant century
                or so in a relatively homogenous cultural setting (true, if one looks
                deeply the cultures were very different but trade and social pressure
                caused styles to be quickly adopted in different locals).

                On the other hand, archery covers an uncounted number of cultures
                occupying 6 million square miles and a thousand years using
                technologies from the primitive to the near space age. The is no
                definable archery style or look, only the skills of a using string
                stretched between the ends of a spring, pulled with fingers, to
                launch a stick at a target. In researching the limits of archery
                tackle to determine shooting classes, the NAA and the NFAA have
                looked closely at all forms of bows and technologies and has come to
                the conclusion that once sights and stabilizers are eliminated from
                bows having a string attached directly to nocks at the ends of the
                bow there is little effective difference. The skill of the archer is
                the defining element.

                If we want knowledge of archery to become common and respect for our
                skill, we must have as many people as possible experience what we
                do. What we have done for years does that. Putting artificial
                barriers up to that experience and knowledge will only serve to
                isolate us further from the mainstream of society. Yes, the more
                period people may become more respected by the elite of SCA archery
                but archers in general will become more remote.
                Carolus

                At 12:44 PM 8/17/2008, you wrote:


                >All, In deference to the good black knight, my documented comments
                >regarding types of bows historically used in Europe and Near-Asia
                >throughout history, including the BCE, are acurate. Even so, they
                >were made to offer a point...and, at the risk if really getting
                >people angry at me, which IS NOT my point in this treatise, it was
                >my understanding, upon joining the SCA, that it is a historical
                >kind-of-reinactment/educational group wherein the members lived a
                >'weekend' (or greater) lifestyle of the 'middle ages' as 'they
                >should have been.' This is, in and of itself, subject to personal
                >interpretation, which, by me, is fine. And again, to me personally,
                >I couldn't care-a-less about peerage, as long as people are enjoying
                >what they are doing and are trying to be as "period" as they can, so
                >my comments on that issue would be both complacent and ignorant.
                >
                >snip
                >To suppose that the SCA or any other 'American' organization
                >accurately reflects pre-1700's 'period' is disingenuous to
                >historical fact; we do not have the ability, nor I think the desire,
                >to be completely historically accurate. For example: 1) Medieval
                >Europe was restricted to Western Continent Feudal Systems (including
                >the British Isles and Ireland) and some imperial enterprizes; it was
                >not a world-wide system and therefore cannot be accurately utilized
                >when "personas" come from outside of the Western European Genre; 2)
                >Animals were extensively used in labor, transportation, food,
                >clothing, etc.; they were one of the the basis of civilization (for
                >a very accurate whiff of what it smelled like, visit Crescent City,
                >California...where the Brown Pelicans hang out...OMG!!!). In my
                >humble neophyte opinion, people do and should do the best they can,
                >according to their conscience, dictates, and abilities.
                >snip
              • ld.blackmoon
                greetings well said !! be safe, be happy, have fun arthur ... From: Carolus To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 8:25 PM Subject: RE:
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 17, 2008
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                  greetings

                  well said !!

                  be safe, be happy, have fun
                  arthur
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Carolus
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 8:25 PM
                  Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] a short "banning modern bows" rant


                  This, in essence summarizes the situation when I joined as well. Our
                  events were costumed theme parties where we tried to evoke an image
                  of period in order share what we learned in an atmosphere evoking the
                  period. I have never seen any official statement or policy changing
                  this nor have I seen any widespread organic movement to do so. Only
                  within the archery community do I see any call for regulatory
                  enforcement of re-enactment style policies.

                  Many references are made to the rapier community and their move to
                  more period appearance yet they have no such policies or rules, only
                  leading by example. One of the things which has led to their success
                  is the fact that they do not have to worry about using period
                  equipment, they are perfectly happy using modern fencing gear. Our
                  difficulty is that we do not move quickly across a field with a
                  competition over in a matter of minutes, modern gear quickly out of
                  sight. We stand in full view, as still as possible for extended
                  periods of time allowing all to observe us in detail. Our equipment
                  must remain setup and is difficult to conceal when not in
                  use. Additionally, the rapier community have a more concentrated
                  sense of time, the weapon they represent in use for a scant century
                  or so in a relatively homogenous cultural setting (true, if one looks
                  deeply the cultures were very different but trade and social pressure
                  caused styles to be quickly adopted in different locals).

                  On the other hand, archery covers an uncounted number of cultures
                  occupying 6 million square miles and a thousand years using
                  technologies from the primitive to the near space age. The is no
                  definable archery style or look, only the skills of a using string
                  stretched between the ends of a spring, pulled with fingers, to
                  launch a stick at a target. In researching the limits of archery
                  tackle to determine shooting classes, the NAA and the NFAA have
                  looked closely at all forms of bows and technologies and has come to
                  the conclusion that once sights and stabilizers are eliminated from
                  bows having a string attached directly to nocks at the ends of the
                  bow there is little effective difference. The skill of the archer is
                  the defining element.

                  If we want knowledge of archery to become common and respect for our
                  skill, we must have as many people as possible experience what we
                  do. What we have done for years does that. Putting artificial
                  barriers up to that experience and knowledge will only serve to
                  isolate us further from the mainstream of society. Yes, the more
                  period people may become more respected by the elite of SCA archery
                  but archers in general will become more remote.
                  Carolus

                  At 12:44 PM 8/17/2008, you wrote:

                  >All, In deference to the good black knight, my documented comments
                  >regarding types of bows historically used in Europe and Near-Asia
                  >throughout history, including the BCE, are acurate. Even so, they
                  >were made to offer a point...and, at the risk if really getting
                  >people angry at me, which IS NOT my point in this treatise, it was
                  >my understanding, upon joining the SCA, that it is a historical
                  >kind-of-reinactment/educational group wherein the members lived a
                  >'weekend' (or greater) lifestyle of the 'middle ages' as 'they
                  >should have been.' This is, in and of itself, subject to personal
                  >interpretation, which, by me, is fine. And again, to me personally,
                  >I couldn't care-a-less about peerage, as long as people are enjoying
                  >what they are doing and are trying to be as "period" as they can, so
                  >my comments on that issue would be both complacent and ignorant.
                  >
                  >snip
                  >To suppose that the SCA or any other 'American' organization
                  >accurately reflects pre-1700's 'period' is disingenuous to
                  >historical fact; we do not have the ability, nor I think the desire,
                  >to be completely historically accurate. For example: 1) Medieval
                  >Europe was restricted to Western Continent Feudal Systems (including
                  >the British Isles and Ireland) and some imperial enterprizes; it was
                  >not a world-wide system and therefore cannot be accurately utilized
                  >when "personas" come from outside of the Western European Genre; 2)
                  >Animals were extensively used in labor, transportation, food,
                  >clothing, etc.; they were one of the the basis of civilization (for
                  >a very accurate whiff of what it smelled like, visit Crescent City,
                  >California...where the Brown Pelicans hang out...OMG!!!). In my
                  >humble neophyte opinion, people do and should do the best they can,
                  >according to their conscience, dictates, and abilities.
                  >snip




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                • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                  Now I m going to have an internal struggle over whether I want to show up to King s Companie of Archers with Marvin the Martian stickers on my bow (temporarily
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 17, 2008
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                    Now I'm going to have an internal struggle over whether I want to show
                    up to King's Companie of Archers with Marvin the Martian stickers on my
                    bow (temporarily adhered) just to be a goober. Thanks a bunch!
                    Decisions Decisions.

                    Is being a goober period?

                    Rodrigo Belmonte wrote:
                    > For my part, I will gladly give up my 55# "modern" recurve.. just as soon as someone else who is worried about the historical accuracy of MY bow wants to go spend the mass amounts of money on buying me a new one. Oh, and Isabel, my wife, needs one too. While yer at it, you should probably get a couple of sheep, so you can raise em, shear em, card the wool, spin the yarn, weave the fabric, and make me a new set of garb.. and of course, since I am a fighting archer, ya might wanna get a couple of cows to butcher to make me some new leather, as I am pretty sure the awesome quiver I was given as a gift isnt exactly fitting to my persona.. oh and grab a new pick while you are at it, to go mine the ores to smelt and smith into armour... Have that to me by, say, Gulf Wars, and I'll gladly give you my bow. No? well then, sorry.. I'll just keep using what I have, and we can all be happy, eh?
                    > Seriously, folks.. relax. We are all in the SCA to have fun, and hang out with friends, while trying to recreate the Middle Ages as they should have been, not as they actually were. For my part, it doesnt really matter to me if someone shows up with a fiberglass bow, paited bright pink with Marvin the Martin stickers all over it, as long as they get the chance to toss some sharp pointy sticks at the target, and get to have fun. I mean, come on, thats what this is all about, right??
                    >
                    > :steps off his soap-box, and goes back to lurking quietly::
                    > In service to the Dream,
                    >
                    > Rodrigo Belmonte
                    > Oakheart Company of Archers
                    > Shire of Oakheart
                    > Kingdom of Calontir
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    >

                    --

                    // Merry

                    ----------
                    'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                    Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                    Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
                    http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
                    ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

                    'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
                    pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
                  • Frederick Fenters
                    Yes Merry, goobers (although not necessarily peanuts) are period. I would pay good money for a picture of you showing up as specified and showing reactions
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 18, 2008
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                      Yes Merry, goobers (although not necessarily peanuts) are period.



                      I would pay good money for a picture of you showing up as specified and
                      showing reactions from your Brothers and Sisters in the Company. I'd try
                      something similar in the Greenwood meetings, but they know me too well and
                      would just roll their eyes and Arwenna would belt me one.



                      Padraig



                      _____

                      From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                      Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:31 AM
                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] a short "banning modern bows" rant



                      Now I'm going to have an internal struggle over whether I want to show
                      up to King's Companie of Archers with Marvin the Martian stickers on my
                      bow (temporarily adhered) just to be a goober. Thanks a bunch!
                      Decisions Decisions.

                      Is being a goober period?

                      Rodrigo Belmonte wrote:
                      > For my part, I will gladly give up my 55# "modern" recurve.. just as soon
                      as someone else who is worried about the historical accuracy of MY bow wants
                      to go spend the mass amounts of money on buying me a new one. Oh, and
                      Isabel, my wife, needs one too. While yer at it, you should probably get a
                      couple of sheep, so you can raise em, shear em, card the wool, spin the
                      yarn, weave the fabric, and make me a new set of garb.. and of course, since
                      I am a fighting archer, ya might wanna get a couple of cows to butcher to
                      make me some new leather, as I am pretty sure the awesome quiver I was given
                      as a gift isnt exactly fitting to my persona.. oh and grab a new pick while
                      you are at it, to go mine the ores to smelt and smith into armour... Have
                      that to me by, say, Gulf Wars, and I'll gladly give you my bow. No? well
                      then, sorry.. I'll just keep using what I have, and we can all be happy, eh?
                      > Seriously, folks.. relax. We are all in the SCA to have fun, and hang out
                      with friends, while trying to recreate the Middle Ages as they should have
                      been, not as they actually were. For my part, it doesnt really matter to me
                      if someone shows up with a fiberglass bow, paited bright pink with Marvin
                      the Martin stickers all over it, as long as they get the chance to toss some
                      sharp pointy sticks at the target, and get to have fun. I mean, come on,
                      thats what this is all about, right??
                      >
                      > :steps off his soap-box, and goes back to lurking quietly::
                      > In service to the Dream,
                      >
                      > Rodrigo Belmonte
                      > Oakheart Company of Archers
                      > Shire of Oakheart
                      > Kingdom of Calontir
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      >

                      --

                      // Merry

                      ----------
                      'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                      Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                      Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
                      http://Thistledowne <http://Thistledowne.org/> .org/ http://ShireOfStand
                      <http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/> ingStones.org/
                      ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

                      'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
                      pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • blkknighti@aol.com
                      ... nobility we don t like ? or shooting plague rats over town walls , or placing them into the towns water supply ?? knights should go back to robbing the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 18, 2008
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                        In a message dated 8/16/08 10:46:45 PM, ld.blackmoon@... writes:


                        >>ok, so following that principal, we should go back to poisoning the
                        nobility we don't like ?
                        or shooting plague rats over town walls , or placing them into the towns
                        water supply ??
                        knights should go back to robbing the poor, and, to put it politely , "
                        taking their pleasure " from any maiden that took their fancy ?? welcome or not ?<<

                        Again, this platform is just silly. Its not what we are talking about here.
                        Nor are we suggesting the incarceration or even execution of anyone who
                        irritatates nobles ;) . In fact it simply could NOT be done (within the existing
                        mundane laws of the 21th century). Just as we cannot actually kill people of the
                        rattan lists we also need to have an equity as to calibration of armour
                        standands regardless of what equiptment is being worn so that non period protection
                        does not give an unwarrented advantage in these contests... unlike the
                        advantage by the use of modern recurves. This is the topic of this thread and I will
                        chose here to specifically address the thread.
                        As I have stated I do not advocate the banning of modern recurves yet in The
                        Society that is based on the life and culture of the landed nobility of
                        pre-17th Century Western Europe, focusing on the
                        Middle Ages and the Renaissance efforts should be made to reward those who
                        follow the stated definition of the group, whenever it was established and
                        indeed not reward those who are in the organization to simply have fun and
                        socialize and party. Yep, be safe, be happy and have fun and play by the rules of the
                        organization.

                        In a message dated 8/17/08 9:22:23 PM, eulenhorst@... writes:

                        > This, in essence summarizes the situation when I joined as well.  Our
                        > events were costumed theme parties where we tried to evoke an image
                        > of period in order share what we learned in an atmosphere evoking the
                        > period.
                        >
                        Hense the Eisenhower quotes: "The world moves, and ideas that were once good
                        are not always good."
                        "Things are more like they are now than they ever were before."
                        "Things have never been more like the way they are today in history."

                        >   I have never seen any official statement or policy changing
                        > this nor have I seen any widespread organic movement to do so.
                        >
                        >
                        From:

                        The Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc.
                        Organizational Handbook
                        > April 2001
                        > Revised October 2007
                        >
                        Here it is as defined in the glossary:
                        > • Period: The era used by the Society as the base for its re-creation
                        > activities. The Society is based on
                        > the life and culture of the landed nobility of pre-17th Century Western
                        > Europe, focusing on the
                        > Middle Ages and the Renaissance
                        >
                        And again in events:

                        A. Society Events Defined
                        The term “Society event” refers to tournaments, feasts, and other activities
                        whereby participants can display
                        the results of their researches into the culture and technology of the period
                        in an environment which evokes
                        the atmosphere of the pre-17th century European Middle Ages and Renaissance.
                        It also refers to educational
                        activities involving either one-time classes or ongoing Society university
                        organizations, and meetings where
                        participants share skills or discuss the business of the group. All Society
                        events must be sponsored by
                        branches of the Society, registered with the Seneschal of the sponsoring
                        branch, publicized at least to the
                        members of that branch, and conducted according to Society rules.

                        and:

                        B. Requirements for Participants at Society events
                        Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at
                        pre-17th century clothing,
                        conforms to the provisions in Corpora, and complies with any other
                        requirements (such as site fees or
                        waivers) which may be imposed. At business meetings and informal classes, the
                        requirement to wear pre-17th
                        century dress may be waived. All participants are expected to behave as
                        ladies or gentlemen.

                        and in the The Articles of Incorporation of the Society for Creative
                        Anachronism, Inc.:

                        II. This corporation is a nonprofit public benefit corporation and is not
                        organized for the
                        private gain of any person. It is organized under the Nonprofit Public
                        Benefit Corporation Law for charitable
                        purposes. The purposes for which this corporation is formed include:
                        (a) Research and education in the field of pre-17th-Century Western Culture.
                        (b) Generally, to engage in research; publish material of relevance and
                        interest to the
                        field of pre-17th-Century Western Culture; to present activities and events
                        which re-create the environment of
                        said era, such as, but not limited to, tournaments, jousts, fairs, dances,
                        classes, et cetera; to acquire authentic
                        or reproduced replicas of chattels representative of said era; and to collect
                        a library.


                        In a message dated 8/16/08 10:46:45 PM, ld.blackmoon@... writes:

                        >when I started sca 26 + years ago, it was " the society for CREATIVE
                        anachronism , portraying the middle ages as it SHOULD have been .<

                        IF this was the law 26 years ago it is not now as illustrated above. While I
                        have head such portrayals of the SCA it is not part of the factual establ
                        ishment of the current SCA. Nothing in the organization docs of the SCA even elude
                        to the quote given above.

                        >sorry , your post just came across, at least to me as being very rude .<

                        I'm sorry you felt it was rude. In fact, I was succinctly asked the point
                        of a quote I felt applicable by Eisenhower and posted and indeed succinctly
                        answered. Far from being rude. There is nothing rude in anything I posted. just
                        facts. I suppose this may be construe as rude but follow the thread:
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: blkknighti@...
                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:43 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: New User Equipment

                          Sorry I thought it was self evident...

                          A people= SCA archery community
                          priviliges= use of equipment outside of stated principle
                          principle= pre 17th century research and re-creation
                        R

                          In a message dated 8/16/08 4:53:45 PM, eulenhorst@... writes:

                          > Indeed, he did.  And your point is???
                          > Carolus
                          >
                          > At 01:18 PM 8/16/2008, you wrote:
                          >
                          > >Eisenhower also said "A people that values its privileges above its
                          > >principles soon loses both."

                        And indeed I went deeper in explaining my position in a post following, most
                        courteously and respectfully.
                        Thank you for allowing me to freely express my informed views and for sharing
                        yours as well.

                        Richard























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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Elise Kingston
                        Well put. It s always important to compare apples to apples and check the impulse go off into ad absurdium arguments (the fallacy of the false dilemma). ~
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 18, 2008
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                          Well put. It's always important to compare apples to
                          apples and check the impulse go off into ad absurdium
                          arguments (the fallacy of the false dilemma).

                          ~ Wencenedl ~


                          --- blkknighti@... wrote:

                          > Again, this platform is just silly. Its not what we are
                          > talking about here. <snip>
                          > [We] cannot actually kill people of the
                          > rattan lists [but] we ... need to have an equity as to
                          > calibration of armour
                          > standands regardless of what equiptment is being worn so
                          > that non period protection
                          > does not give an unwarrented advantage in these
                          > contests... unlike the
                          > advantage by the use of modern recurves. This is the
                          > topic of this thread
                        • Brad Boda d'Aylward
                          Something happened here not too long ago which resembles what we re discussing. There has been an ongoing discussion of trying to eliminate non-period looking
                          Message 12 of 12 , Aug 18, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Something happened here not too long ago which resembles what we're
                            discussing. There has been an ongoing discussion of trying to eliminate
                            non-period looking material on the battlefield. One of our Kings past made a
                            ruling that there would no longer be any plastic shields on the field.
                            UUHHhhh, Your Maj, you are going to loose half your army.......

                            The ruling is now that there be no 'obviously' plastic shields (with the
                            plastic ribbing). I applaud the peer pressure which encourages a more
                            'period' kit on the field and I finally, after 16 years have succumbed and
                            bought an aluminum shield blank at Pennsic.

                            But I believe that one of our greatest strengths and greatest draws is our
                            encouragement to 'come and play with us'. The greatest difference I see in
                            this respect is my 15ft period pavillion next to a Colman or Hillary. If we
                            started mandating period tack I would have far fewer rookie shooters to
                            teach the noble art of killing targets. I fully applaud the peer pressure
                            expressed by those who have a higher committment to period accuracy and am
                            seriously looking forward to owning a real 'D' section along with my
                            American Flat.

                            Only don't denigrate my love for archery on the altar of period perfection
                            or I will probably pat you on the head and religate your opinion to those
                            groups like the MSR or to the Civil War Recreationists who have to spend
                            close to $5,000 on their kits to join the artillary units. (Their 'garb'
                            *must* be bought from the unit tailor who have to use the correct 'thread
                            count' for their clothes). I'll smile, turn, and then take some shooters out
                            to the archery line who want to work on improving their form.

                            Brad


                            Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] a short "banning modern bows" rant


                            > This, in essence summarizes the situation when I joined as well. Our
                            > events were costumed theme parties where we tried to evoke an image
                            > of period in order share what we learned in an atmosphere evoking the
                            > period. I have never seen any official statement or policy changing
                            > this nor have I seen any widespread organic movement to do so. Only
                            > within the archery community do I see any call for regulatory
                            > enforcement of re-enactment style policies.
                            >
                            > Many references are made to the rapier community and their move to
                            > more period appearance yet they have no such policies or rules, only
                            > leading by example. One of the things which has led to their success
                            > is the fact that they do not have to worry about using period
                            > equipment, they are perfectly happy using modern fencing gear. Our
                            > difficulty is that we do not move quickly across a field with a
                            > competition over in a matter of minutes, modern gear quickly out of
                            > sight. We stand in full view, as still as possible for extended
                            > periods of time allowing all to observe us in detail. Our equipment
                            > must remain setup and is difficult to conceal when not in
                            > use. Additionally, the rapier community have a more concentrated
                            > sense of time, the weapon they represent in use for a scant century
                            > or so in a relatively homogenous cultural setting (true, if one looks
                            > deeply the cultures were very different but trade and social pressure
                            > caused styles to be quickly adopted in different locals).
                            >
                            > On the other hand, archery covers an uncounted number of cultures
                            > occupying 6 million square miles and a thousand years using
                            > technologies from the primitive to the near space age. The is no
                            > definable archery style or look, only the skills of a using string
                            > stretched between the ends of a spring, pulled with fingers, to
                            > launch a stick at a target. In researching the limits of archery
                            > tackle to determine shooting classes, the NAA and the NFAA have
                            > looked closely at all forms of bows and technologies and has come to
                            > the conclusion that once sights and stabilizers are eliminated from
                            > bows having a string attached directly to nocks at the ends of the
                            > bow there is little effective difference. The skill of the archer is
                            > the defining element.
                            >
                            > If we want knowledge of archery to become common and respect for our
                            > skill, we must have as many people as possible experience what we
                            > do. What we have done for years does that. Putting artificial
                            > barriers up to that experience and knowledge will only serve to
                            > isolate us further from the mainstream of society. Yes, the more
                            > period people may become more respected by the elite of SCA archery
                            > but archers in general will become more remote.
                            > Carolus
                            >
                            > At 12:44 PM 8/17/2008, you wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > >All, In deference to the good black knight, my documented comments
                            > >regarding types of bows historically used in Europe and Near-Asia
                            > >throughout history, including the BCE, are acurate. Even so, they
                            > >were made to offer a point...and, at the risk if really getting
                            > >people angry at me, which IS NOT my point in this treatise, it was
                            > >my understanding, upon joining the SCA, that it is a historical
                            > >kind-of-reinactment/educational group wherein the members lived a
                            > >'weekend' (or greater) lifestyle of the 'middle ages' as 'they
                            > >should have been.' This is, in and of itself, subject to personal
                            > >interpretation, which, by me, is fine. And again, to me personally,
                            > >I couldn't care-a-less about peerage, as long as people are enjoying
                            > >what they are doing and are trying to be as "period" as they can, so
                            > >my comments on that issue would be both complacent and ignorant.
                            > >
                            > >snip
                            > >To suppose that the SCA or any other 'American' organization
                            > >accurately reflects pre-1700's 'period' is disingenuous to
                            > >historical fact; we do not have the ability, nor I think the desire,
                            > >to be completely historically accurate. For example: 1) Medieval
                            > >Europe was restricted to Western Continent Feudal Systems (including
                            > >the British Isles and Ireland) and some imperial enterprizes; it was
                            > >not a world-wide system and therefore cannot be accurately utilized
                            > >when "personas" come from outside of the Western European Genre; 2)
                            > >Animals were extensively used in labor, transportation, food,
                            > >clothing, etc.; they were one of the the basis of civilization (for
                            > >a very accurate whiff of what it smelled like, visit Crescent City,
                            > >California...where the Brown Pelicans hang out...OMG!!!). In my
                            > >humble neophyte opinion, people do and should do the best they can,
                            > >according to their conscience, dictates, and abilities.
                            > >snip
                            >
                            >
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