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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Guinness record?

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  • Carolus
    We would have to ask Guinness for clarification but I was always under the impression that the ear was a part of the face. As the purpose of the rule appears
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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      We would have to ask Guinness for clarification
      but I was always under the impression that the
      ear was a part of the face. As the purpose of
      the rule appears to prevent short draws, this should not be a problem.
      Carolus

      At 09:17 PM 6/1/2008, you wrote:

      >I know that my opinion is not always as highly regarded as others',
      >yet I feel a need to (again) chirp in. I have to agree with Egil on
      >his assesment of the rules; I happen to not draw to my face -- but to
      >my ear. According to the SPTA/Guiness rules, I would have to change
      >my anchor point, thereby drawing short, just to be within those
      >rules. How many others would need to change their anchor point, just
      >so their fingers will touch their face?
      >
      >--Artúr
    • John and Carol Atkins
      I personally don t see 21 arrows in one minute as an unsurmountable task for most good SCA archers. But a little math. It is reported here that the best
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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        I personally don't see 21 arrows in one minute as an unsurmountable
        task for most "good" SCA archers. But a little math. It is reported
        here that the best Royal Round scores are in the 150 catagory. If we
        assume a perfect score untimed the maximum achievable is 90. That
        leaves a score of 60 needed in the timed round. Again, if we assume
        a perfect 5 for each shaft fired we are talking a total of 12 shatfs,
        in 30 seconds. Times two is 24 in one minute. I have archers in my
        area that can get off 9 - 10 shafts in 30 seconds. I personally am
        currently averaging about 8 - 9 in 30 seconds (but working to improve
        both accuracy and number). I think this is an intersting challenge
        that I would put to the test. SCA archers are AWSOME! Why not enter
        this competition and get some international exposure for what we do?
        I see nothing in the rules that would prevent us from smashing this
        record. As much as I believe (at the complete and total risk of the
        flames on this list) tha crossbows are the devils instrument the
        Atlantia very best archers, by RR scores are currently ALL
        crossbowmen. To watch them shoot is pure joy and harmony and
        efficiency. Imagine an SCA crossbowman smashing this record. Woud
        that put the SCA on the map? I think a major YES! (Not that we need
        to be on the map mind you.)

        cog



        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Egil Haraldsson"
        <eagleclaws_skyrider@...> wrote:
        >
        > Maybe you missed the discussion on this list and at Gulf Wars of
        > those who who say they can load 2 or 3 arrows at the start and
        shoot
        > 2 at a time after that. Of course with the disclaimer that " Our
        > Kingdom allows it". I have personally seen 2 arrows nocked and half
        > draws of heavy bows during the speed shoot at 20 yards and most
        > Kingdoms allow the arrow nocked and drawn during RR and IKAC
        shoots.
        > So needless to say, 21 arrows, drawn one at a time, bow relaxed at
        > the beginning and all arrows on target is an accomplishment and not
        > one I would think beaten,"easily". Beaten, well yes scores are by
        > nature made to be broken.
        >
        >
        > Just an observation,
        > Egil
        >
        > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Eadric Anstapa <eadric@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Really, why do you think that?
        > >
        > > Around these parts most people are shooting bows heavier than
        30#,
        > I
        > > know nobody that shoots two arrows at once, and starting with an
        > undrawn
        > > bow might possibly nock a single shot off the number arrows our
        > shooters
        > > normally get off in a speed round.
        > >
        > > -EA
        > >
        > > Egil Haraldsson wrote:
        > > > I think rule Number 3,7 and 8 would eliminate most speed
        shooters.
        > > > Egil
        > > >
        > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John edgerton <sirjon1@>
        > wrote:
        > > >
        > > >> It seems to me that we have archers in the SCA that could beat
        > > >>
        > > > this
        > > >
        > > >> record. Anyone willing to try? It might be something to try
        > at
        > > >> Pennsic.
        > > >>
        > > >> Jon
        > > >> ****************************
        > > >>
        > > >> GUINNESS SPEED SHOOTING RECORD
        > > >> In August 1999, SPTA member Dave Powers, pictured below, set a
        > new
        > > >> Guinness record of 21 accurate arrows in a minute at the
        annual
        > > >>
        > > > Speed
        > > >
        > > >> shooting competition in the heart of Sherwood Forest,
        Edwinstowe.
        > > >> Society for the Promotion of Traditional Archery
        > > >>
        > > >> SPTA/GUINNESS RULES FOR SPEED SHOOTING
        > > >>
        > > >> The competition is for the greatest number of arrows shot into
        > a
        > > >> target in one minute.
        > > >> 1. Bows and arrows shall conform to SPTA rules. (Available
        > from
        > > >>
        > > > the
        > > >
        > > >> Society) . Bows may be self-nocked. There shall be no
        sight
        > or
        > > >> mark on the bow limb. Strings may be of natural fibre
        > > >>
        > > > or "Dacron".
        > > >
        > > >> Any form of arrow-nock, including cross-nocks, may be used.
        > Four-
        > > >> fletched arrows may be used.
        > > >> 2. The bow shall have a minimum draw-weight at the Archer's
        > > >>
        > > > normal
        > > >
        > > >> draw-length of 30 pounds for a man and 25 pounds for a woman.
        > > >>
        > > > Special
        > > >
        > > >> classes may be created for heavy bow weights at the discretion
        > of
        > > >>
        > > > the
        > > >
        > > >> competition organiser. (Bow specifications for Juniors at
        the
        > > >> discretion of the event organiser).
        > > >> 3. At each shot the bow shall be drawn until the fingers
        > touch
        > > >>
        > > > the
        > > >
        > > >> face.
        > > >> 4. The arrows may be kept in a quiver or stuck vertically
        > into
        > > >>
        > > > the
        > > >
        > > >> ground near the Archer.
        > > >> 5. The Archer shall receive no assistance during the
        contest.
        > > >> 6. Archers shall shoot for one minute.
        > > >> 7. At the start of shooting (on a signal agreed in advance)
        > the
        > > >> Archer may have an arrow nocked on to the string but the bow
        has
        > > >>
        > > > to
        > > >
        > > >> be undrawn. Shooting shall cease immediately upon an agreed
        > signal.
        > > >> 8. Arrows are to be shot singly.
        > > >> 9. Archers shall shoot from a standing position
        (particular
        > > >> variations may be permitted in cases of physical disability)
        > > >> 10. The target face shall be placed centrally on a boss or
        > butt.
        > > >>
        > > > It
        > > >
        > > >> shall be circular, of a pale colour, the centre indicated by
        a
        > > >> clearly contrasting spot of 4 in. diameter, the centre of
        which
        > > >>
        > > > shall
        > > >
        > > >> be 4 feet above the ground. The diameter of the target in
        > inches
        > > >> shall be equal to the number of complete yards in the
        shooting
        > > >> distance. The minimum shooting distance shall be 15 yards.
        > > >> 11. Qualifying arrows: An arrow embedded into the scoring
        area
        > > >>
        > > > will
        > > >
        > > >> count towards the total and any arrow whose shaft touches the
        > line
        > > >> demarking the scoring area will also be counted. Arrows
        already
        > > >> loosed at the time of the 'stop' signal shall count toward the
        > > >>
        > > > score
        > > >
        > > >> if they qualify.
        > > >> 12. Arrows which are perceived to bounce back may be counted
        > if
        > > >> positive evidence exists of their having bounced from the
        target
        > > >>
        > > > face
        > > >
        > > >> or from another countable arrow.
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • jameswolfden
        I agree it would be interesting to see but just a clarification. We would need to set up a new category for crossbow, this speed record is for handbow. And the
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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          I agree it would be interesting to see but just a clarification. We
          would need to set up a new category for crossbow, this speed record
          is for handbow.

          And the very best RR score ever done is 165 which represents a
          minimum of 15 arrows all hitting gold in the timed end (and it has
          been confirmed on this group that they were all shot one at a time).
          So yes, the potential is definitely there.

          By the way, I did get a response back from the organization but they
          didn't expand much on the bow or arrow rules other than what was in
          rules Jon posted. Nothing about whether you can't have modern
          recurves or plastic nocks or anything like that.

          James

          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "John and Carol Atkins"
          <cogworks@...> wrote:
          >
          > I personally don't see 21 arrows in one minute as an
          unsurmountable
          > task for most "good" SCA archers. But a little math. It is
          reported
          > here that the best Royal Round scores are in the 150 catagory. If
          we
          > assume a perfect score untimed the maximum achievable is 90. That
          > leaves a score of 60 needed in the timed round. Again, if we
          assume
          > a perfect 5 for each shaft fired we are talking a total of 12
          shatfs,
          > in 30 seconds. Times two is 24 in one minute. I have archers in
          my
          > area that can get off 9 - 10 shafts in 30 seconds. I personally
          am
          > currently averaging about 8 - 9 in 30 seconds (but working to
          improve
          > both accuracy and number). I think this is an intersting
          challenge
          > that I would put to the test. SCA archers are AWSOME! Why not
          enter
          > this competition and get some international exposure for what we
          do?
          > I see nothing in the rules that would prevent us from smashing
          this
          > record. As much as I believe (at the complete and total risk of
          the
          > flames on this list) tha crossbows are the devils instrument the
          > Atlantia very best archers, by RR scores are currently ALL
          > crossbowmen. To watch them shoot is pure joy and harmony and
          > efficiency. Imagine an SCA crossbowman smashing this record.
          Woud
          > that put the SCA on the map? I think a major YES! (Not that we
          need
          > to be on the map mind you.)
          >
          > cog
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Egil Haraldsson"
          > <eagleclaws_skyrider@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Maybe you missed the discussion on this list and at Gulf Wars of
          > > those who who say they can load 2 or 3 arrows at the start and
          > shoot
          > > 2 at a time after that. Of course with the disclaimer that " Our
          > > Kingdom allows it". I have personally seen 2 arrows nocked and
          half
          > > draws of heavy bows during the speed shoot at 20 yards and most
          > > Kingdoms allow the arrow nocked and drawn during RR and IKAC
          > shoots.
          > > So needless to say, 21 arrows, drawn one at a time, bow relaxed
          at
          > > the beginning and all arrows on target is an accomplishment and
          not
          > > one I would think beaten,"easily". Beaten, well yes scores are
          by
          > > nature made to be broken.
          > >
          > >
          > > Just an observation,
          > > Egil
          > >
          > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Eadric Anstapa <eadric@>
          wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Really, why do you think that?
          > > >
          > > > Around these parts most people are shooting bows heavier than
          > 30#,
          > > I
          > > > know nobody that shoots two arrows at once, and starting with
          an
          > > undrawn
          > > > bow might possibly nock a single shot off the number arrows
          our
          > > shooters
          > > > normally get off in a speed round.
          > > >
          > > > -EA
          > > >
          > > > Egil Haraldsson wrote:
          > > > > I think rule Number 3,7 and 8 would eliminate most speed
          > shooters.
          > > > > Egil
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John edgerton <sirjon1@>
          > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >> It seems to me that we have archers in the SCA that could
          beat
          > > > >>
          > > > > this
          > > > >
          > > > >> record. Anyone willing to try? It might be something to
          try
          > > at
          > > > >> Pennsic.
          > > > >>
          > > > >> Jon
          > > > >> ****************************
          > > > >>
          > > > >> GUINNESS SPEED SHOOTING RECORD
          > > > >> In August 1999, SPTA member Dave Powers, pictured below,
          set a
          > > new
          > > > >> Guinness record of 21 accurate arrows in a minute at the
          > annual
          > > > >>
          > > > > Speed
          > > > >
          > > > >> shooting competition in the heart of Sherwood Forest,
          > Edwinstowe.
          > > > >> Society for the Promotion of Traditional Archery
          > > > >>
          > > > >> SPTA/GUINNESS RULES FOR SPEED SHOOTING
          > > > >>
          > > > >> The competition is for the greatest number of arrows shot
          into
          > > a
          > > > >> target in one minute.
          > > > >> 1. Bows and arrows shall conform to SPTA rules.
          (Available
          > > from
          > > > >>
          > > > > the
          > > > >
          > > > >> Society) . Bows may be self-nocked. There shall be no
          > sight
          > > or
          > > > >> mark on the bow limb. Strings may be of natural fibre
          > > > >>
          > > > > or "Dacron".
          > > > >
          > > > >> Any form of arrow-nock, including cross-nocks, may be
          used.
          > > Four-
          > > > >> fletched arrows may be used.
          > > > >> 2. The bow shall have a minimum draw-weight at the
          Archer's
          > > > >>
          > > > > normal
          > > > >
          > > > >> draw-length of 30 pounds for a man and 25 pounds for a
          woman.
          > > > >>
          > > > > Special
          > > > >
          > > > >> classes may be created for heavy bow weights at the
          discretion
          > > of
          > > > >>
          > > > > the
          > > > >
          > > > >> competition organiser. (Bow specifications for Juniors at
          > the
          > > > >> discretion of the event organiser).
          > > > >> 3. At each shot the bow shall be drawn until the fingers
          > > touch
          > > > >>
          > > > > the
          > > > >
          > > > >> face.
          > > > >> 4. The arrows may be kept in a quiver or stuck
          vertically
          > > into
          > > > >>
          > > > > the
          > > > >
          > > > >> ground near the Archer.
          > > > >> 5. The Archer shall receive no assistance during the
          > contest.
          > > > >> 6. Archers shall shoot for one minute.
          > > > >> 7. At the start of shooting (on a signal agreed in
          advance)
          > > the
          > > > >> Archer may have an arrow nocked on to the string but the
          bow
          > has
          > > > >>
          > > > > to
          > > > >
          > > > >> be undrawn. Shooting shall cease immediately upon an agreed
          > > signal.
          > > > >> 8. Arrows are to be shot singly.
          > > > >> 9. Archers shall shoot from a standing position
          > (particular
          > > > >> variations may be permitted in cases of physical disability)
          > > > >> 10. The target face shall be placed centrally on a boss or
          > > butt.
          > > > >>
          > > > > It
          > > > >
          > > > >> shall be circular, of a pale colour, the centre indicated
          by
          > a
          > > > >> clearly contrasting spot of 4 in. diameter, the centre of
          > which
          > > > >>
          > > > > shall
          > > > >
          > > > >> be 4 feet above the ground. The diameter of the target in
          > > inches
          > > > >> shall be equal to the number of complete yards in the
          > shooting
          > > > >> distance. The minimum shooting distance shall be 15 yards.
          > > > >> 11. Qualifying arrows: An arrow embedded into the scoring
          > area
          > > > >>
          > > > > will
          > > > >
          > > > >> count towards the total and any arrow whose shaft touches
          the
          > > line
          > > > >> demarking the scoring area will also be counted. Arrows
          > already
          > > > >> loosed at the time of the 'stop' signal shall count toward
          the
          > > > >>
          > > > > score
          > > > >
          > > > >> if they qualify.
          > > > >> 12. Arrows which are perceived to bounce back may be
          counted
          > > if
          > > > >> positive evidence exists of their having bounced from the
          > target
          > > > >>
          > > > > face
          > > > >
          > > > >> or from another countable arrow.
          > > > >>
          > > > >>
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • arturdubh
          According to Webster s (Universal College Dictionary), the (human) face is the front part of the head, from the forehead to the chin . Since most peoples
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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            According to Webster's (Universal College Dictionary), the (human)
            face is "the front part of the head, from the forehead to the chin".
            Since most peoples' ears are located on the sides of their heads, my
            understanding is that the ears can not be considered as being part of
            the face.

            Maybe the folks at Guinness happen to use a different definition
            of "face", though...

            --Artúr


            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
            >
            > We would have to ask Guinness for clarification
            > but I was always under the impression that the
            > ear was a part of the face. As the purpose of
            > the rule appears to prevent short draws, this should not be a
            problem.
            > Carolus
            >
            > At 09:17 PM 6/1/2008, you wrote:
            >
            > >I know that my opinion is not always as highly regarded as others',
            > >yet I feel a need to (again) chirp in. I have to agree with Egil on
            > >his assesment of the rules; I happen to not draw to my face -- but
            to
            > >my ear. According to the SPTA/Guiness rules, I would have to change
            > >my anchor point, thereby drawing short, just to be within those
            > >rules. How many others would need to change their anchor point,
            just
            > >so their fingers will touch their face?
            > >
            > >--Artúr
            >
          • arturdubh
            From the SPTA rules: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ EQUIPMENT GUIDE There are four classes of bow, outlined below. Bows in any class can be of any
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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              From the SPTA rules:

              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              EQUIPMENT GUIDE
              There are four classes of bow, outlined below.
              Bows in any class can be of any draw weight.
              No sight marks, stabilisers, draw checks,
              release aids etc. allowed in any class. All
              decisions regarding equipment are made by
              the event organiser.

              English Longbow
              Wooden bows only, 'self' or laminated.
              Nocks: `self'/horn/hardwood . No recurve. `D'
              section , depth no less than 5/8 of width

              American Longbow (AFB):
              Min. length 60in. Fibreglass laminations
              allowed. Reflex & reflex/deflex bows allowable
              but string must only touch nocks when braced.
              Includes straight limbed fibreglass bows.
              Shelves/rests allowed.

              Hunting style Recurve
              Self or composite bows, with timber risers
              only, shelf/arrow rests allowable; one piece or
              take down, composite bows.
              Includes beginners recurved fibreglass bows

              Primitive (classic) Bows
              `SImple'*:Self bows of natural materials, shot
              around the handle, backings of natural
              materials (e.g. sinew/rawhide/snakeskin/linen).
              Reflex or setback allowable, but string must
              touch bow only at nocks when braced.
              `Classic'* Includes composite bows
              (*Class subdivisions at organisers discretion)
              No shelves/rests allowed in any subdivision

              Arrows
              In ALL cases timber shafts and real feather
              fletchings ONLY, plastic/self nocked.
              Permissible arrowheads at event organiser's
              discretion.

              Loose
              All styles of finger/thumb releases acceptable.
              including thumbrings for suitable `eastern' style
              bows.

              *JUNIORS: bow lengths proportionately
              reduced
              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

              This should help to ease the confusion as to exactly what is -- and
              isn't -- allowed (as long the bow has a wooden riser, even "modern"
              recurves are allowed; they're considered "composite" Hunting style
              Recurve bows).

              --Artúr (No, I'm not a member of the SPTA -- but I have been thinking
              about it for a while.)

              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden" <jameswolfden@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I agree it would be interesting to see but just a clarification. We
              > would need to set up a new category for crossbow, this speed record
              > is for handbow.
              >
              > And the very best RR score ever done is 165 which represents a
              > minimum of 15 arrows all hitting gold in the timed end (and it has
              > been confirmed on this group that they were all shot one at a
              time).
              > So yes, the potential is definitely there.
              >
              > By the way, I did get a response back from the organization but
              they
              > didn't expand much on the bow or arrow rules other than what was in
              > rules Jon posted. Nothing about whether you can't have modern
              > recurves or plastic nocks or anything like that.
              >
              > James
            • John edgerton
              Just keep in mind that the SPTA rules are the SPTA rules and not necessarily the Guinness rules. Anyone that would like to run a record competition should
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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                Just keep in mind that the SPTA rules are the SPTA rules and not
                necessarily the Guinness rules. Anyone that would like to run a
                record competition should contact Guinness well in advance of the
                shooting to make arrangements with them.

                Jon
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