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Re: Guinness record?

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  • jameswolfden
    From Wikipedia The face is the front part of the head and includes the hair, forehead, eyebrow, eyes, nose, ears, cheeks, mouth, lips, philtrum, teeth, skin,
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 1, 2008
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      From Wikipedia
      The face is the front part of the head and includes the hair,
      forehead, eyebrow, eyes, nose, ears, cheeks, mouth, lips, philtrum,
      teeth, skin, and chin.

      I realize that wikipedia is not the best source but it pretty much
      matches up with what I always understood a face was. Drawing to your
      ear is drawing to your face.

      I think one also needs to look at the intent of the rule. It is there
      to prevent shortdrawing to speed things up.

      James

      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Eadric Anstapa <eadric@...> wrote:
      >
      > I guess it all depends on what you call the "face".
      >
      > My three points of contact with the string are:
      >
      > 1. The string along side my nose.
      > 2. The string at the corner of my mouth
      > 3. My fingers on the string
      >
      > My fingers actually align right along the bottom of my jaw. Is
      that to
      > the face? I always sorta considered it part if my face but I
      guess
      > depending on how narrowly one wanted to define "face" it might not
      be.
      >
      > -EA
      >
      > arturdubh wrote:
      > > I know that my opinion is not always as highly regarded as
      others',
      > > yet I feel a need to (again) chirp in. I have to agree with Egil
      on
      > > his assesment of the rules; I happen to not draw to my face --
      but to
      > > my ear. According to the SPTA/Guiness rules, I would have to
      change
      > > my anchor point, thereby drawing short, just to be within those
      > > rules. How many others would need to change their anchor point,
      just
      > > so their fingers will touch their face?
      > >
      > > --Artúr
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Egil Haraldsson"
      > > <eagleclaws_skyrider@> wrote:
      > >
      > >> I think rule Number 3,7 and 8 would eliminate most speed
      shooters.
      > >> Egil
      > >>
      > >> --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John edgerton <sirjon1@>
      wrote:
      > >>
      > >>> It seems to me that we have archers in the SCA that could beat
      > >>>
      > >> this
      > >>
      > >>> record. Anyone willing to try? It might be something to try
      at
      > >>> Pennsic.
      > >>>
      > >>> Jon
      > >>> ****************************
      > >>>
      > >>> GUINNESS SPEED SHOOTING RECORD
      > >>> In August 1999, SPTA member Dave Powers, pictured below, set a
      > >>>
      > > new
      > >
      > >>> ...........
      > >>>
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Carolus
      We would have to ask Guinness for clarification but I was always under the impression that the ear was a part of the face. As the purpose of the rule appears
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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        We would have to ask Guinness for clarification
        but I was always under the impression that the
        ear was a part of the face. As the purpose of
        the rule appears to prevent short draws, this should not be a problem.
        Carolus

        At 09:17 PM 6/1/2008, you wrote:

        >I know that my opinion is not always as highly regarded as others',
        >yet I feel a need to (again) chirp in. I have to agree with Egil on
        >his assesment of the rules; I happen to not draw to my face -- but to
        >my ear. According to the SPTA/Guiness rules, I would have to change
        >my anchor point, thereby drawing short, just to be within those
        >rules. How many others would need to change their anchor point, just
        >so their fingers will touch their face?
        >
        >--Artúr
      • John and Carol Atkins
        I personally don t see 21 arrows in one minute as an unsurmountable task for most good SCA archers. But a little math. It is reported here that the best
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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          I personally don't see 21 arrows in one minute as an unsurmountable
          task for most "good" SCA archers. But a little math. It is reported
          here that the best Royal Round scores are in the 150 catagory. If we
          assume a perfect score untimed the maximum achievable is 90. That
          leaves a score of 60 needed in the timed round. Again, if we assume
          a perfect 5 for each shaft fired we are talking a total of 12 shatfs,
          in 30 seconds. Times two is 24 in one minute. I have archers in my
          area that can get off 9 - 10 shafts in 30 seconds. I personally am
          currently averaging about 8 - 9 in 30 seconds (but working to improve
          both accuracy and number). I think this is an intersting challenge
          that I would put to the test. SCA archers are AWSOME! Why not enter
          this competition and get some international exposure for what we do?
          I see nothing in the rules that would prevent us from smashing this
          record. As much as I believe (at the complete and total risk of the
          flames on this list) tha crossbows are the devils instrument the
          Atlantia very best archers, by RR scores are currently ALL
          crossbowmen. To watch them shoot is pure joy and harmony and
          efficiency. Imagine an SCA crossbowman smashing this record. Woud
          that put the SCA on the map? I think a major YES! (Not that we need
          to be on the map mind you.)

          cog



          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Egil Haraldsson"
          <eagleclaws_skyrider@...> wrote:
          >
          > Maybe you missed the discussion on this list and at Gulf Wars of
          > those who who say they can load 2 or 3 arrows at the start and
          shoot
          > 2 at a time after that. Of course with the disclaimer that " Our
          > Kingdom allows it". I have personally seen 2 arrows nocked and half
          > draws of heavy bows during the speed shoot at 20 yards and most
          > Kingdoms allow the arrow nocked and drawn during RR and IKAC
          shoots.
          > So needless to say, 21 arrows, drawn one at a time, bow relaxed at
          > the beginning and all arrows on target is an accomplishment and not
          > one I would think beaten,"easily". Beaten, well yes scores are by
          > nature made to be broken.
          >
          >
          > Just an observation,
          > Egil
          >
          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Eadric Anstapa <eadric@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Really, why do you think that?
          > >
          > > Around these parts most people are shooting bows heavier than
          30#,
          > I
          > > know nobody that shoots two arrows at once, and starting with an
          > undrawn
          > > bow might possibly nock a single shot off the number arrows our
          > shooters
          > > normally get off in a speed round.
          > >
          > > -EA
          > >
          > > Egil Haraldsson wrote:
          > > > I think rule Number 3,7 and 8 would eliminate most speed
          shooters.
          > > > Egil
          > > >
          > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John edgerton <sirjon1@>
          > wrote:
          > > >
          > > >> It seems to me that we have archers in the SCA that could beat
          > > >>
          > > > this
          > > >
          > > >> record. Anyone willing to try? It might be something to try
          > at
          > > >> Pennsic.
          > > >>
          > > >> Jon
          > > >> ****************************
          > > >>
          > > >> GUINNESS SPEED SHOOTING RECORD
          > > >> In August 1999, SPTA member Dave Powers, pictured below, set a
          > new
          > > >> Guinness record of 21 accurate arrows in a minute at the
          annual
          > > >>
          > > > Speed
          > > >
          > > >> shooting competition in the heart of Sherwood Forest,
          Edwinstowe.
          > > >> Society for the Promotion of Traditional Archery
          > > >>
          > > >> SPTA/GUINNESS RULES FOR SPEED SHOOTING
          > > >>
          > > >> The competition is for the greatest number of arrows shot into
          > a
          > > >> target in one minute.
          > > >> 1. Bows and arrows shall conform to SPTA rules. (Available
          > from
          > > >>
          > > > the
          > > >
          > > >> Society) . Bows may be self-nocked. There shall be no
          sight
          > or
          > > >> mark on the bow limb. Strings may be of natural fibre
          > > >>
          > > > or "Dacron".
          > > >
          > > >> Any form of arrow-nock, including cross-nocks, may be used.
          > Four-
          > > >> fletched arrows may be used.
          > > >> 2. The bow shall have a minimum draw-weight at the Archer's
          > > >>
          > > > normal
          > > >
          > > >> draw-length of 30 pounds for a man and 25 pounds for a woman.
          > > >>
          > > > Special
          > > >
          > > >> classes may be created for heavy bow weights at the discretion
          > of
          > > >>
          > > > the
          > > >
          > > >> competition organiser. (Bow specifications for Juniors at
          the
          > > >> discretion of the event organiser).
          > > >> 3. At each shot the bow shall be drawn until the fingers
          > touch
          > > >>
          > > > the
          > > >
          > > >> face.
          > > >> 4. The arrows may be kept in a quiver or stuck vertically
          > into
          > > >>
          > > > the
          > > >
          > > >> ground near the Archer.
          > > >> 5. The Archer shall receive no assistance during the
          contest.
          > > >> 6. Archers shall shoot for one minute.
          > > >> 7. At the start of shooting (on a signal agreed in advance)
          > the
          > > >> Archer may have an arrow nocked on to the string but the bow
          has
          > > >>
          > > > to
          > > >
          > > >> be undrawn. Shooting shall cease immediately upon an agreed
          > signal.
          > > >> 8. Arrows are to be shot singly.
          > > >> 9. Archers shall shoot from a standing position
          (particular
          > > >> variations may be permitted in cases of physical disability)
          > > >> 10. The target face shall be placed centrally on a boss or
          > butt.
          > > >>
          > > > It
          > > >
          > > >> shall be circular, of a pale colour, the centre indicated by
          a
          > > >> clearly contrasting spot of 4 in. diameter, the centre of
          which
          > > >>
          > > > shall
          > > >
          > > >> be 4 feet above the ground. The diameter of the target in
          > inches
          > > >> shall be equal to the number of complete yards in the
          shooting
          > > >> distance. The minimum shooting distance shall be 15 yards.
          > > >> 11. Qualifying arrows: An arrow embedded into the scoring
          area
          > > >>
          > > > will
          > > >
          > > >> count towards the total and any arrow whose shaft touches the
          > line
          > > >> demarking the scoring area will also be counted. Arrows
          already
          > > >> loosed at the time of the 'stop' signal shall count toward the
          > > >>
          > > > score
          > > >
          > > >> if they qualify.
          > > >> 12. Arrows which are perceived to bounce back may be counted
          > if
          > > >> positive evidence exists of their having bounced from the
          target
          > > >>
          > > > face
          > > >
          > > >> or from another countable arrow.
          > > >>
          > > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
        • jameswolfden
          I agree it would be interesting to see but just a clarification. We would need to set up a new category for crossbow, this speed record is for handbow. And the
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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            I agree it would be interesting to see but just a clarification. We
            would need to set up a new category for crossbow, this speed record
            is for handbow.

            And the very best RR score ever done is 165 which represents a
            minimum of 15 arrows all hitting gold in the timed end (and it has
            been confirmed on this group that they were all shot one at a time).
            So yes, the potential is definitely there.

            By the way, I did get a response back from the organization but they
            didn't expand much on the bow or arrow rules other than what was in
            rules Jon posted. Nothing about whether you can't have modern
            recurves or plastic nocks or anything like that.

            James

            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "John and Carol Atkins"
            <cogworks@...> wrote:
            >
            > I personally don't see 21 arrows in one minute as an
            unsurmountable
            > task for most "good" SCA archers. But a little math. It is
            reported
            > here that the best Royal Round scores are in the 150 catagory. If
            we
            > assume a perfect score untimed the maximum achievable is 90. That
            > leaves a score of 60 needed in the timed round. Again, if we
            assume
            > a perfect 5 for each shaft fired we are talking a total of 12
            shatfs,
            > in 30 seconds. Times two is 24 in one minute. I have archers in
            my
            > area that can get off 9 - 10 shafts in 30 seconds. I personally
            am
            > currently averaging about 8 - 9 in 30 seconds (but working to
            improve
            > both accuracy and number). I think this is an intersting
            challenge
            > that I would put to the test. SCA archers are AWSOME! Why not
            enter
            > this competition and get some international exposure for what we
            do?
            > I see nothing in the rules that would prevent us from smashing
            this
            > record. As much as I believe (at the complete and total risk of
            the
            > flames on this list) tha crossbows are the devils instrument the
            > Atlantia very best archers, by RR scores are currently ALL
            > crossbowmen. To watch them shoot is pure joy and harmony and
            > efficiency. Imagine an SCA crossbowman smashing this record.
            Woud
            > that put the SCA on the map? I think a major YES! (Not that we
            need
            > to be on the map mind you.)
            >
            > cog
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Egil Haraldsson"
            > <eagleclaws_skyrider@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Maybe you missed the discussion on this list and at Gulf Wars of
            > > those who who say they can load 2 or 3 arrows at the start and
            > shoot
            > > 2 at a time after that. Of course with the disclaimer that " Our
            > > Kingdom allows it". I have personally seen 2 arrows nocked and
            half
            > > draws of heavy bows during the speed shoot at 20 yards and most
            > > Kingdoms allow the arrow nocked and drawn during RR and IKAC
            > shoots.
            > > So needless to say, 21 arrows, drawn one at a time, bow relaxed
            at
            > > the beginning and all arrows on target is an accomplishment and
            not
            > > one I would think beaten,"easily". Beaten, well yes scores are
            by
            > > nature made to be broken.
            > >
            > >
            > > Just an observation,
            > > Egil
            > >
            > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Eadric Anstapa <eadric@>
            wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Really, why do you think that?
            > > >
            > > > Around these parts most people are shooting bows heavier than
            > 30#,
            > > I
            > > > know nobody that shoots two arrows at once, and starting with
            an
            > > undrawn
            > > > bow might possibly nock a single shot off the number arrows
            our
            > > shooters
            > > > normally get off in a speed round.
            > > >
            > > > -EA
            > > >
            > > > Egil Haraldsson wrote:
            > > > > I think rule Number 3,7 and 8 would eliminate most speed
            > shooters.
            > > > > Egil
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John edgerton <sirjon1@>
            > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >> It seems to me that we have archers in the SCA that could
            beat
            > > > >>
            > > > > this
            > > > >
            > > > >> record. Anyone willing to try? It might be something to
            try
            > > at
            > > > >> Pennsic.
            > > > >>
            > > > >> Jon
            > > > >> ****************************
            > > > >>
            > > > >> GUINNESS SPEED SHOOTING RECORD
            > > > >> In August 1999, SPTA member Dave Powers, pictured below,
            set a
            > > new
            > > > >> Guinness record of 21 accurate arrows in a minute at the
            > annual
            > > > >>
            > > > > Speed
            > > > >
            > > > >> shooting competition in the heart of Sherwood Forest,
            > Edwinstowe.
            > > > >> Society for the Promotion of Traditional Archery
            > > > >>
            > > > >> SPTA/GUINNESS RULES FOR SPEED SHOOTING
            > > > >>
            > > > >> The competition is for the greatest number of arrows shot
            into
            > > a
            > > > >> target in one minute.
            > > > >> 1. Bows and arrows shall conform to SPTA rules.
            (Available
            > > from
            > > > >>
            > > > > the
            > > > >
            > > > >> Society) . Bows may be self-nocked. There shall be no
            > sight
            > > or
            > > > >> mark on the bow limb. Strings may be of natural fibre
            > > > >>
            > > > > or "Dacron".
            > > > >
            > > > >> Any form of arrow-nock, including cross-nocks, may be
            used.
            > > Four-
            > > > >> fletched arrows may be used.
            > > > >> 2. The bow shall have a minimum draw-weight at the
            Archer's
            > > > >>
            > > > > normal
            > > > >
            > > > >> draw-length of 30 pounds for a man and 25 pounds for a
            woman.
            > > > >>
            > > > > Special
            > > > >
            > > > >> classes may be created for heavy bow weights at the
            discretion
            > > of
            > > > >>
            > > > > the
            > > > >
            > > > >> competition organiser. (Bow specifications for Juniors at
            > the
            > > > >> discretion of the event organiser).
            > > > >> 3. At each shot the bow shall be drawn until the fingers
            > > touch
            > > > >>
            > > > > the
            > > > >
            > > > >> face.
            > > > >> 4. The arrows may be kept in a quiver or stuck
            vertically
            > > into
            > > > >>
            > > > > the
            > > > >
            > > > >> ground near the Archer.
            > > > >> 5. The Archer shall receive no assistance during the
            > contest.
            > > > >> 6. Archers shall shoot for one minute.
            > > > >> 7. At the start of shooting (on a signal agreed in
            advance)
            > > the
            > > > >> Archer may have an arrow nocked on to the string but the
            bow
            > has
            > > > >>
            > > > > to
            > > > >
            > > > >> be undrawn. Shooting shall cease immediately upon an agreed
            > > signal.
            > > > >> 8. Arrows are to be shot singly.
            > > > >> 9. Archers shall shoot from a standing position
            > (particular
            > > > >> variations may be permitted in cases of physical disability)
            > > > >> 10. The target face shall be placed centrally on a boss or
            > > butt.
            > > > >>
            > > > > It
            > > > >
            > > > >> shall be circular, of a pale colour, the centre indicated
            by
            > a
            > > > >> clearly contrasting spot of 4 in. diameter, the centre of
            > which
            > > > >>
            > > > > shall
            > > > >
            > > > >> be 4 feet above the ground. The diameter of the target in
            > > inches
            > > > >> shall be equal to the number of complete yards in the
            > shooting
            > > > >> distance. The minimum shooting distance shall be 15 yards.
            > > > >> 11. Qualifying arrows: An arrow embedded into the scoring
            > area
            > > > >>
            > > > > will
            > > > >
            > > > >> count towards the total and any arrow whose shaft touches
            the
            > > line
            > > > >> demarking the scoring area will also be counted. Arrows
            > already
            > > > >> loosed at the time of the 'stop' signal shall count toward
            the
            > > > >>
            > > > > score
            > > > >
            > > > >> if they qualify.
            > > > >> 12. Arrows which are perceived to bounce back may be
            counted
            > > if
            > > > >> positive evidence exists of their having bounced from the
            > target
            > > > >>
            > > > > face
            > > > >
            > > > >> or from another countable arrow.
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • arturdubh
            According to Webster s (Universal College Dictionary), the (human) face is the front part of the head, from the forehead to the chin . Since most peoples
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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              According to Webster's (Universal College Dictionary), the (human)
              face is "the front part of the head, from the forehead to the chin".
              Since most peoples' ears are located on the sides of their heads, my
              understanding is that the ears can not be considered as being part of
              the face.

              Maybe the folks at Guinness happen to use a different definition
              of "face", though...

              --Artúr


              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
              >
              > We would have to ask Guinness for clarification
              > but I was always under the impression that the
              > ear was a part of the face. As the purpose of
              > the rule appears to prevent short draws, this should not be a
              problem.
              > Carolus
              >
              > At 09:17 PM 6/1/2008, you wrote:
              >
              > >I know that my opinion is not always as highly regarded as others',
              > >yet I feel a need to (again) chirp in. I have to agree with Egil on
              > >his assesment of the rules; I happen to not draw to my face -- but
              to
              > >my ear. According to the SPTA/Guiness rules, I would have to change
              > >my anchor point, thereby drawing short, just to be within those
              > >rules. How many others would need to change their anchor point,
              just
              > >so their fingers will touch their face?
              > >
              > >--Artúr
              >
            • arturdubh
              From the SPTA rules: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ EQUIPMENT GUIDE There are four classes of bow, outlined below. Bows in any class can be of any
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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                From the SPTA rules:

                ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                EQUIPMENT GUIDE
                There are four classes of bow, outlined below.
                Bows in any class can be of any draw weight.
                No sight marks, stabilisers, draw checks,
                release aids etc. allowed in any class. All
                decisions regarding equipment are made by
                the event organiser.

                English Longbow
                Wooden bows only, 'self' or laminated.
                Nocks: `self'/horn/hardwood . No recurve. `D'
                section , depth no less than 5/8 of width

                American Longbow (AFB):
                Min. length 60in. Fibreglass laminations
                allowed. Reflex & reflex/deflex bows allowable
                but string must only touch nocks when braced.
                Includes straight limbed fibreglass bows.
                Shelves/rests allowed.

                Hunting style Recurve
                Self or composite bows, with timber risers
                only, shelf/arrow rests allowable; one piece or
                take down, composite bows.
                Includes beginners recurved fibreglass bows

                Primitive (classic) Bows
                `SImple'*:Self bows of natural materials, shot
                around the handle, backings of natural
                materials (e.g. sinew/rawhide/snakeskin/linen).
                Reflex or setback allowable, but string must
                touch bow only at nocks when braced.
                `Classic'* Includes composite bows
                (*Class subdivisions at organisers discretion)
                No shelves/rests allowed in any subdivision

                Arrows
                In ALL cases timber shafts and real feather
                fletchings ONLY, plastic/self nocked.
                Permissible arrowheads at event organiser's
                discretion.

                Loose
                All styles of finger/thumb releases acceptable.
                including thumbrings for suitable `eastern' style
                bows.

                *JUNIORS: bow lengths proportionately
                reduced
                ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                This should help to ease the confusion as to exactly what is -- and
                isn't -- allowed (as long the bow has a wooden riser, even "modern"
                recurves are allowed; they're considered "composite" Hunting style
                Recurve bows).

                --Artúr (No, I'm not a member of the SPTA -- but I have been thinking
                about it for a while.)

                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden" <jameswolfden@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I agree it would be interesting to see but just a clarification. We
                > would need to set up a new category for crossbow, this speed record
                > is for handbow.
                >
                > And the very best RR score ever done is 165 which represents a
                > minimum of 15 arrows all hitting gold in the timed end (and it has
                > been confirmed on this group that they were all shot one at a
                time).
                > So yes, the potential is definitely there.
                >
                > By the way, I did get a response back from the organization but
                they
                > didn't expand much on the bow or arrow rules other than what was in
                > rules Jon posted. Nothing about whether you can't have modern
                > recurves or plastic nocks or anything like that.
                >
                > James
              • John edgerton
                Just keep in mind that the SPTA rules are the SPTA rules and not necessarily the Guinness rules. Anyone that would like to run a record competition should
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 2, 2008
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                  Just keep in mind that the SPTA rules are the SPTA rules and not
                  necessarily the Guinness rules. Anyone that would like to run a
                  record competition should contact Guinness well in advance of the
                  shooting to make arrangements with them.

                  Jon
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