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Re: [Calontam] Go/No-Go Judgement Call. How would you decide.

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  • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
    Wow... looks like I have some backtracking to do. I had meant to make it clear in my original posting that I thought that it was handled perfectly by both
    Message 1 of 8 , May 29, 2008
      Wow... looks like I have some backtracking to do. I had meant to make
      it clear in my original posting that I thought that it was handled
      perfectly by both our Kingdom Archer General and our Shire Archery
      Marshal. Furthermore I intentionally did *_not_* say how it was
      handled because that was not the point of the post. The point was what
      I stated it to be, namely because I find it elucidating and educational
      to get the opinions of a vast range of archers and marshals, especially
      those with so much more knowledge and experience than myself, and call
      it presumptuous of me, I also think it's educational to others to have
      things like this discussed and hear other points of view. I know for
      myself that my opinion has been somewhat swayed by what people posted on
      my last topic of this type (to the CalonTAM list) regarding
      authorizations _and_ cards.... I stated it poorly, but I don't
      necessarily thing the two are tied at the hip and I was hoping for
      discussions of { w/o both, w/ both, w/ one, w/ the other}. I also
      posted this present topic because I found it a little humorous in the
      'incredulous' realm of the crazy things people do, even when (especially
      when) their personal safety is involved and I thought the rest of you
      would enjoy both a chance to do a double-take and then a nervous chuckle
      at, what someone else appropriately named a candidate for the Darwin Award.

      Master Thomas and Lady Marie are my first source for guidance in the
      world of archery, and have my utmost respect. If you perceive that I
      feel otherwise, than I appreciate you coming to their defense (not that
      they need it, their record is defense enough), and I assure you that
      your perceptions of my feelings are wrong either because of
      misunderstanding, my poor communication, or your own personal bias
      against me (I know of none), and I'm not at all prepared to make a
      judgment call as to which of these, together or apart are correct. I
      think at times I embarrass them because I do stick my foot in it a lot,
      but they understand that I mean well and they have always been very
      patient and understanding with me and also very kind. Perhaps I should
      keep my mouth shut more often and my ears open more. I fight a loosing
      battle to do that every day as others can attest. It's not my primary
      nature.

      I will add that I discussed putting the photos online, and making this
      post to the lists (and the CAA) with Lady Marie (and I believe in
      earshot of Master Thomas), and did as she requested and mailed a copy to
      her. I hope that there was nothing in it that anyone found objectionable.

      Now, to you Master Prescott (Baron Master Prescott? I don't know how
      best to address a multiple prefix holder). I've previously been a
      Marshal of the Field of the Kingdom of Calontir and am a MIT working
      towards that distinction/responsibility again. I've shared the field
      with you for over 11 years at SCA events. I've done everything I can to
      warrant your approval and respect and to help out where I could at
      events that you or your esteemed wife have organized and officiated at.
      ( I try at all events I attend but I am more successful at some than
      others). I very much like you and every encounter I have had with you.
      I'm not offended if you don't know me or recall my history and that's
      your reason for saying what you've said. If you do recall me and my
      history and that's your reason for saying what you've said, then I will
      try to accept the feedback and improve and I'm still not offended.
      However... I do try to exercise good judgment, and learn from my
      betters. I have been shooting archery for over 11 years (I believe... I
      still need to sit down and figure out the exact time I started) in the
      SCA, and outside the SCA for longer than that. I was known as Philippe
      until a year or two ago, and there was a period where I was inactive
      while I was sick and life was repeatedly kicking me in the fruit and
      veg. I'm not saying this to lay claim to any expertise, but to perhaps
      recall me to your mind if you have forgotten our past association (and I
      hope it was positive... if not, perhaps it's not good to recall me to
      your mind), and to say that I'm not a complete neophyte. I may be an
      idiot or foolish, or any of a number of things, but I'm not recently
      introduced to this activity.

      If I've given offense, I've meant any and I hope to soothe any such harm.

      I will repeat that those others involved in this little vignette I
      thought to share with fellow archers handled things perfectly in my
      estimation. It was a good day at the range.

      I hope that you and I may have pleasant association and interactions in
      the future.

      // Merry

      Hugh Prescott wrote:
      > Greetings
      >
      > I have read this thread and previous threads started on CalonTAM and
      > SCA-Archery groups by the OP. We should all note that the OP is not an
      > Authorized Archery Marshal in Calontir. He is a relative new to the SCA
      > and SCA archery.
      >
      > The OP indicates that the Group Archer Marshal and the Kingdom of
      > Calontir Archer General was in attendance during the described incident.
      >
      > I have had no communication with them about this (they are friends) so I
      > have no inside knowledge of the incident.
      >
      > What I have read so far indicates to me that this problem was handled
      > properly by the appropriate powers that were present. What I am
      > concerned about is that the discussion is, in my opinion, drifting
      > toward the concept that the marshals present that handled the problem
      > did not act appropriately.
      >
      > I have full faith that the Group Archer Marshal, the Kingdom Archer
      > General, the Kingdom of Calontir and if needed, the Society Archer
      > Marshal have / are and will, as necessary, handle any problems such as this.
      >
      > I believe that our safety rules were followed and they worked in this
      > incident.
      >
      > Thank you for listening.
      >
      > Baron Master Hugh Prescott, OP, Sword, etc etc
      > Huscarl of Calontir
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >

      --

      // Merry

      ----------
      'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
      Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
      Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
      http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
      ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

      'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
      pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Hobbe
      ... Honoring those who improve the species...by accidentally removing themselves from it! If he shoots himself with an arrow, yeah - Darwin Award. If *you*
      Message 2 of 8 , May 29, 2008
        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder
        Lutre <Merry@...> wrote:
        >
        > a candidate for the Darwin Award.
        >

        "Honoring those who improve the species...by accidentally removing
        themselves from it!"

        If he shoots himself with an arrow, yeah - Darwin Award.

        If *you* shoot him because he wandered onto your unsafe range and
        surprised you - murder.

        Truth be told, the fence bothers me more than the fishermen.

        Since you said the range is closing soon, I'm going to shut up and
        ignore any more posts about this range. I hope passersby stay
        unpunctured and you stay unjailed.
      • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
        It s ironic to me that you are saying pretty much exactly what I felt when the batting cage foundations began to be dug. I never liked the back fence but
        Message 3 of 8 , May 29, 2008
          It's ironic to me that you are saying pretty much exactly what I felt
          when the batting cage foundations began to be dug. I never liked the
          back fence but hadn't given it a lot of thought, but when they proposed
          putting the fence on the side to 'remedy' the danger created by putting
          the batting cages there it gave me cause to think how much I disliked
          and was uncomfortable with the back fence for the same reasons you've
          stated. I said exactly that at the CAA meetings and in discussions with
          others and I stopped shooting there myself for a while. When the range
          was pronounced safe by a qualified inspector I pretty much deferred to
          that person's expertise as having more sense than the uneasy feelings in
          my gut. I resumed shooting there and I'm a little ashamed to admit
          stopped giving it a lot of thought until recently. There has never
          been an incident in the couple years since the wall was put up along the
          side and while lack of incident does not mean safety, I've let that
          relax me about the issue, and I still think the expert may be correct.

          I've always been a little more uptight about some things than others and
          have basically taken it over time that I am perhaps _over_ cautious and
          that the positions of others show more _sense_, and I still think that
          is the case. I think the range is probably reasonably safe and
          certainly is setup in a way that the city (et al) is able to satisfy
          their insurance underwriters (I understand they insure themselves, but
          they still answer to other people who have actuary tables and other
          things that can decertify their insurance if they don't agree with their
          judgment). From that respect, the range is legal and archers and the
          city are fairly protected from liability unless they were acting in a
          blatantly dangerous fashion.

          I've always hated going behind that wall to retrieve arrows, and am
          grateful that I have not put one back there in many years and few if any
          of even our newest archers ever puts one back there. We post a spotter,
          you may be certain, to hold the range while someone is behind, but it
          still clenches my gut to realize that I'm there in no-man's-land and not
          visible from the line.

          For those discussing ranges, I think the picture I posted with the post
          is fairly explicit
          http://bramblethorne.org/NonAttachments/CAALayout.png Crummy yes, and
          possibly not entirely to scale, but the target locations and distances
          are marked. The image was made a couple of years ago when they broke
          ground on the cages and I think I've drawn the cages perhaps 10 yards
          too close in the drawing, but not with intent of being misleading.

          I've said in other posts that there are signs posted but there's been
          several suggestions of posting signs. I'll be more explicit. There
          are several orange signs on white pvc posts IIRC at the far end and
          behind the range. I think there are signs on the fences and I think
          there may be signs along the approach the Prius took to the place he
          parked (pretty much between the words "Brush & Trees" and the trees in
          the drawing I think). He certainly was able to see them from where he
          was and chose to ignore them. I'll have to check but I don't believe
          they included any 'official' things like city ordinance numbers or
          similar as I don't believe there's any city ordinances that apply.

          To the best of my knowledge, regardless of what the photos might imply,
          once he was in place to fish, he was well out of the danger zone of any
          rules SCA, Kingdom, or otherwise that I know of, though his vehicle was not.

          Our powers that be made the right call and I was trying to imply that
          w/o actually saying what call was made and hoping to get feedback from
          other archers. I ask hypothetical questions from time to time in this
          field and in others and I thought the opportunity of a 'real'
          hypothetical was too good to pass up. It certainly has generated
          traffic and I'd like to believe that others have found the discussion as
          interesting as I have. As you all have seen, there are many different
          opinions on the situation. I have absolute faith in the decision making
          abilities of those who actually did make the decision in the real-life
          situation. I won't say who it was, but an earthy person of my
          acquaintance made me familiar with a phrase at dinner after the event
          that I don't think I've ever heard before... "Opinions are like ____,
          Everybody's got one."





          Hobbe wrote:
          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder
          > Lutre <Merry@...> wrote:
          >
          >> a candidate for the Darwin Award.
          >>
          >>
          >
          > "Honoring those who improve the species...by accidentally removing
          > themselves from it!"
          >
          > If he shoots himself with an arrow, yeah - Darwin Award.
          >
          > If *you* shoot him because he wandered onto your unsafe range and
          > surprised you - murder.
          >
          > Truth be told, the fence bothers me more than the fishermen.
          >
          > Since you said the range is closing soon, I'm going to shut up and
          > ignore any more posts about this range. I hope passersby stay
          > unpunctured and you stay unjailed.
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          >

          --

          // Merry

          ----------
          'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
          Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
          Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
          http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
          ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

          'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
          pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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