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Go/No-Go Judgement Call. How would you decide.

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  • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
    I enjoy posting questions occasionally for academic purposes from time to time and seeing how others perceive things and what judgments they would make. Take a
    Message 1 of 20 , May 27, 2008
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      I enjoy posting questions occasionally for academic purposes from time
      to time and seeing how others perceive things and what judgments they
      would make.

      Take a gander at these photos if you would:
      http://photos.shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649

      We were setting up for our weekly shire archery practice at the range
      maintained by the Columbia Area Archers and I believe the State Dept. of
      Conservation, and City at the American Legion Hall this Tuesday, when to
      our disbelief a gentleman in a Toyota Prius drove drove past the
      chain-link fence and parked at the terminus end of the range. We were
      surprised, especially as there are signs on the approach and at the ends
      of the range warning people that it is a hazardous zone. I suppose we
      should not have been however. Three weeks ago I had to call a 'Hold'
      when three youths were running back and forth between the fishing lake
      on the right side and the batting cages on the left hand side. I kept
      thinking I was seeing a bird zip back and forth through the slats in the
      fence at the end of the range and was horrified when I realized what I
      was seeing. I'm a third of a century on this planet and that the
      foolishness of people, especially with regards to their own safety still
      surprises me just proves that I either have a misplaced faith in
      human-kind, or I am indeed a very slow learner.

      Our group marshal politely spoke to this would be perforated fisherman
      to let him know of the danger he and/or his vehicle could be in. I
      understand that he was rather huffy in replying that he did it all the
      time and didn't appreciate our concern for his safety and he refused to
      move his car (he'd have to walk his equipment in/out from a longer
      distance), or choose a safer location from which to fish. From the
      butts we chose to use, his vehicle was well within the 45 degree danger
      zone most archery safety rules try to honor. Had we been shooting at
      any of the more distant butts, he himself would have been within the 45
      degree danger zone.

      So. My question to you on the Calontir Archery Marshal and SCA Archery
      groups is... What would your judgment call have been on this? Would
      you have continued shooting? Would you have altered your range usage...
      say, perhaps, shooting from a slightly off-perpendicular angle or
      eschewed the longer range targets to decrease the danger. Would you
      have packed it in and not shot at all? The photos are perhaps not
      perfect for conveying depth and relative locations, but they were the
      best I could do with a little camera phone.

      I really should not be surprised. Several times in the past, we've had
      to hold the range and alert fisher's to the danger they might be in if
      range activity were to be resumed if they continued to the place they
      intended to fish from. In the first photo there's a dark evergreen tree
      on the right hand side and it seems that to the left of that tree is a
      favorite spot on the bank. Nobody seems to make the mental connection
      that it's within skewering distance of a practice area for very lethal
      weapons. Likewise people have often taken shortcuts around the back of
      the dam rather than walk a slightly longer distance when they employ the
      fishing technique I use most.... namely give up on this spot and find
      another one.... every 5 minutes.... because the fish obviously aren't
      biting here (As a fisherman I'm a fairly adept archer. As an archer,
      I'm a fairly adept kindling crafter. If he had previously had a chance
      to see me in action on an archery range I think he would have judged the
      safest place for him to fish from on that pond to be somewhere three
      miles distant to my immediate rear.). My insides tighten up harshly
      when they pull this stunt because inevitably they emerge into a place of
      danger without our ever having seen them in time to give warning and
      hold the range. It means as well that they've been in danger for
      several yards already too. A couple of years before it had to be
      brought to the attention of the city that the new batting cages they
      were putting in right next to the end of the range on the left hand side
      might be something of a safety concern. I don't know if people just
      don't think about it, or if they don't realize that these are not the
      suction-cup 'injun' arrows we used in trouble with when our sisters
      complained to Mom that we'd been shooting them and counting coup.

      The ground was pretty sloppy wet after morning rain and we had to tread
      carefully so as not to damage the grass while using the range. I never
      looked to see if the Prius had abused the lovely grass, but I'm hopeful
      that it didn't. For all I think he was foolish with his safety and that
      of his horse, he was very careful and deliberate when driving in and out.

      I'm including the CAA club as I wouldn't mind having hearing the
      opinions of others who regularly use (and care for) the range. There's
      a lot of expertise there and much of it is of quite a different nature
      than that of those of us who shoot traditional archery in medieval
      reenactment. I would be interested in hearing their perspectives as well.

      --

      // Merry

      ----------
      'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
      Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
      Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
      http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
      ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

      'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
      pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
    • i_griffen
      Greetings From reading your statements below I have a couple of questions. 1. Has the Kingdom schenachal and Earl Marshal been notified of this danerious
      Message 2 of 20 , May 27, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Greetings


        From reading your statements below I have a couple of questions.


        1. Has the Kingdom schenachal and Earl Marshal been notified of this
        danerious situation?

        2. Has the sponsoring groups knight Marshal been notified of this
        situation?

        3. How many marshals are on the range at one time?

        4 Why are you still using this unsafe range?




        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder
        Lutre <Merry@...> wrote:
        >
        > I enjoy posting questions occasionally for academic purposes from
        time
        > to time and seeing how others perceive things and what judgments
        they
        > would make.
        >
        > Take a gander at these photos if you would:
        > http://photos.shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649
        >
        > We were setting up for our weekly shire archery practice at the
        range
        > maintained by the Columbia Area Archers and I believe the State
        Dept. of
        > Conservation, and City at the American Legion Hall this Tuesday,
        when to
        > our disbelief a gentleman in a Toyota Prius drove drove past the
        > chain-link fence and parked at the terminus end of the range. We
        were
        > surprised, especially as there are signs on the approach and at the
        ends
        > of the range warning people that it is a hazardous zone. I
        suppose we
        > should not have been however. Three weeks ago I had to call
        a 'Hold'
        > when three youths were running back and forth between the fishing
        lake
        > on the right side and the batting cages on the left hand side. I
        kept
        > thinking I was seeing a bird zip back and forth through the slats
        in the
        > fence at the end of the range and was horrified when I realized
        what I
        > was seeing. I'm a third of a century on this planet and that the
        > foolishness of people, especially with regards to their own safety
        still
        > surprises me just proves that I either have a misplaced faith in
        > human-kind, or I am indeed a very slow learner.
        >
        > Our group marshal politely spoke to this would be perforated
        fisherman
        > to let him know of the danger he and/or his vehicle could be in. I
        > understand that he was rather huffy in replying that he did it all
        the
        > time and didn't appreciate our concern for his safety and he
        refused to
        > move his car (he'd have to walk his equipment in/out from a longer
        > distance), or choose a safer location from which to fish. From the
        > butts we chose to use, his vehicle was well within the 45 degree
        danger
        > zone most archery safety rules try to honor. Had we been shooting
        at
        > any of the more distant butts, he himself would have been within
        the 45
        > degree danger zone.
        >
        > So. My question to you on the Calontir Archery Marshal and SCA
        Archery
        > groups is... What would your judgment call have been on this?
        Would
        > you have continued shooting? Would you have altered your range
        usage...
        > say, perhaps, shooting from a slightly off-perpendicular angle or
        > eschewed the longer range targets to decrease the danger. Would
        you
        > have packed it in and not shot at all? The photos are perhaps not
        > perfect for conveying depth and relative locations, but they were
        the
        > best I could do with a little camera phone.
        >
        > I really should not be surprised. Several times in the past, we've
        had
        > to hold the range and alert fisher's to the danger they might be in
        if
        > range activity were to be resumed if they continued to the place
        they
        > intended to fish from. In the first photo there's a dark evergreen
        tree
        > on the right hand side and it seems that to the left of that tree
        is a
        > favorite spot on the bank. Nobody seems to make the mental
        connection
        > that it's within skewering distance of a practice area for very
        lethal
        > weapons. Likewise people have often taken shortcuts around the
        back of
        > the dam rather than walk a slightly longer distance when they
        employ the
        > fishing technique I use most.... namely give up on this spot and
        find
        > another one.... every 5 minutes.... because the fish obviously
        aren't
        > biting here (As a fisherman I'm a fairly adept archer. As an
        archer,
        > I'm a fairly adept kindling crafter. If he had previously had a
        chance
        > to see me in action on an archery range I think he would have
        judged the
        > safest place for him to fish from on that pond to be somewhere
        three
        > miles distant to my immediate rear.). My insides tighten up
        harshly
        > when they pull this stunt because inevitably they emerge into a
        place of
        > danger without our ever having seen them in time to give warning
        and
        > hold the range. It means as well that they've been in danger for
        > several yards already too. A couple of years before it had to be
        > brought to the attention of the city that the new batting cages
        they
        > were putting in right next to the end of the range on the left hand
        side
        > might be something of a safety concern. I don't know if people
        just
        > don't think about it, or if they don't realize that these are not
        the
        > suction-cup 'injun' arrows we used in trouble with when our sisters
        > complained to Mom that we'd been shooting them and counting coup.
        >
        > The ground was pretty sloppy wet after morning rain and we had to
        tread
        > carefully so as not to damage the grass while using the range. I
        never
        > looked to see if the Prius had abused the lovely grass, but I'm
        hopeful
        > that it didn't. For all I think he was foolish with his safety and
        that
        > of his horse, he was very careful and deliberate when driving in
        and out.
        >
        > I'm including the CAA club as I wouldn't mind having hearing the
        > opinions of others who regularly use (and care for) the range.
        There's
        > a lot of expertise there and much of it is of quite a different
        nature
        > than that of those of us who shoot traditional archery in medieval
        > reenactment. I would be interested in hearing their perspectives
        as well.
        >
        > --
        >
        > // Merry
        >
        > ----------
        > 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
        > Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
        > Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
        > http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
        > ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....
        >
        > 'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
        > pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
        >
      • Cecil Hudson
        Well met... I have a couple of opinions about this scenario. First of all, I would try to do everything I could to try to keep shooting, starting with
        Message 3 of 20 , May 27, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Well met...

          I have a couple of opinions about this scenario. First of all, I would try to do everything I could to try to keep shooting, starting with patience and just hoping this erstwhile fisherman would go ahead and leave soon. Then I think I WOULD, like you suggest, alter the range in hopes of keep a safe range and still have an enjoyable shoot. Under no circumstance would I allow one belligerent worm soaker ruin what could otherwise be the best shoot I've ever had (one never knows). Since this seems to be a somewhat of a problem with multiple issues, is there a way you can permanently reconfigure your range so that people popping up in these certain locations will no longer be in danger? Or perhaps you can build barriers with bales of straw to intercept errant arrows that could possibly strike unwary interlopers.

          This is of course discarding the desire to send a few warning shots across the bow of the eco-friendly yet stylish conveyance. =)

          Cian Rhys Gravenor

          To: Calontam@yahoogroups.com; SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com; archerymarshal@...; columbiaareaarchers@...
          From: Merry@...
          Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 22:38:46 -0500
          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Go/No-Go Judgement Call. How would you decide.




















          I enjoy posting questions occasionally for academic purposes from time

          to time and seeing how others perceive things and what judgments they

          would make.



          Take a gander at these photos if you would:

          http://photos.shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649



          We were setting up for our weekly shire archery practice at the range

          maintained by the Columbia Area Archers and I believe the State Dept. of

          Conservation, and City at the American Legion Hall this Tuesday, when to

          our disbelief a gentleman in a Toyota Prius drove drove past the

          chain-link fence and parked at the terminus end of the range. We were

          surprised, especially as there are signs on the approach and at the ends

          of the range warning people that it is a hazardous zone. I suppose we

          should not have been however. Three weeks ago I had to call a 'Hold'

          when three youths were running back and forth between the fishing lake

          on the right side and the batting cages on the left hand side. I kept

          thinking I was seeing a bird zip back and forth through the slats in the

          fence at the end of the range and was horrified when I realized what I

          was seeing. I'm a third of a century on this planet and that the

          foolishness of people, especially with regards to their own safety still

          surprises me just proves that I either have a misplaced faith in

          human-kind, or I am indeed a very slow learner.



          Our group marshal politely spoke to this would be perforated fisherman

          to let him know of the danger he and/or his vehicle could be in. I

          understand that he was rather huffy in replying that he did it all the

          time and didn't appreciate our concern for his safety and he refused to

          move his car (he'd have to walk his equipment in/out from a longer

          distance), or choose a safer location from which to fish. From the

          butts we chose to use, his vehicle was well within the 45 degree danger

          zone most archery safety rules try to honor. Had we been shooting at

          any of the more distant butts, he himself would have been within the 45

          degree danger zone.



          So. My question to you on the Calontir Archery Marshal and SCA Archery

          groups is... What would your judgment call have been on this? Would

          you have continued shooting? Would you have altered your range usage...

          say, perhaps, shooting from a slightly off-perpendicular angle or

          eschewed the longer range targets to decrease the danger. Would you

          have packed it in and not shot at all? The photos are perhaps not

          perfect for conveying depth and relative locations, but they were the

          best I could do with a little camera phone.



          I really should not be surprised. Several times in the past, we've had

          to hold the range and alert fisher's to the danger they might be in if

          range activity were to be resumed if they continued to the place they

          intended to fish from. In the first photo there's a dark evergreen tree

          on the right hand side and it seems that to the left of that tree is a

          favorite spot on the bank. Nobody seems to make the mental connection

          that it's within skewering distance of a practice area for very lethal

          weapons. Likewise people have often taken shortcuts around the back of

          the dam rather than walk a slightly longer distance when they employ the

          fishing technique I use most.... namely give up on this spot and find

          another one.... every 5 minutes.... because the fish obviously aren't

          biting here (As a fisherman I'm a fairly adept archer. As an archer,

          I'm a fairly adept kindling crafter. If he had previously had a chance

          to see me in action on an archery range I think he would have judged the

          safest place for him to fish from on that pond to be somewhere three

          miles distant to my immediate rear.). My insides tighten up harshly

          when they pull this stunt because inevitably they emerge into a place of

          danger without our ever having seen them in time to give warning and

          hold the range. It means as well that they've been in danger for

          several yards already too. A couple of years before it had to be

          brought to the attention of the city that the new batting cages they

          were putting in right next to the end of the range on the left hand side

          might be something of a safety concern. I don't know if people just

          don't think about it, or if they don't realize that these are not the

          suction-cup 'injun' arrows we used in trouble with when our sisters

          complained to Mom that we'd been shooting them and counting coup.



          The ground was pretty sloppy wet after morning rain and we had to tread

          carefully so as not to damage the grass while using the range. I never

          looked to see if the Prius had abused the lovely grass, but I'm hopeful

          that it didn't. For all I think he was foolish with his safety and that

          of his horse, he was very careful and deliberate when driving in and out.



          I'm including the CAA club as I wouldn't mind having hearing the

          opinions of others who regularly use (and care for) the range. There's

          a lot of expertise there and much of it is of quite a different nature

          than that of those of us who shoot traditional archery in medieval

          reenactment. I would be interested in hearing their perspectives as well.



          --



          // Merry



          ----------

          'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre

          Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre

          Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO

          http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/

          ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....



          'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',

          pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
























          _________________________________________________________________
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        • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
          To kill two birds with one stone I ll answer the questions from the first respondent as well. Yes, the Kingdom Archery Marshal is aware and good judgment
          Message 4 of 20 , May 27, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            To kill two birds with one stone I'll answer the questions from the
            first respondent as well. Yes, the Kingdom Archery Marshal is aware
            and good judgment calls have been made. The range is actually safe and
            has been inspected and rubber stamped by an inspector from an
            international archery body. Nothing can be done when people ignore
            signs even behind rifle and skeet ranges, especially when they are
            already trespassing to do so. I posted this to get opinions of other
            marshals and archery pros.... mostly for academic spice. The stories I
            gave are my perceptions of things and the photos are not really all that
            suitable for a go/no-go judgment, but are close enough to at least merit
            an academic discussion.

            To Cian, I'm afraid we're loosing this range within the next year. The
            American Legion Hall stopped the city from ousting us when they voted to
            do so (w/o asking them what they thought of the city's plans for _their_
            land) a year or so back, but has since given in when offered rather
            substantial deal-sweeteners (they would have been rather foolish to do
            otherwise). The city thinks that "The Mavericks" minor-league baseball
            team is a suitable draw to be a big benefit to the city and has slowly
            been taking over the property for the past two years. They are wrong
            btw. The city will Loose money on this big time. Columbia has
            already voted pretty much 'no-interest' over the last several years....
            not in the voting booth, but by more accurate measures.... by failing to
            put butts in seats and to purchase sponsorship advertisements. There
            is a board fence along the left side of the archery field similar to the
            one at the back that the city grudgingly paid for when the stupidity of
            putting batting cages where they put them was brought to their
            attention. I for one am not and never was happy with it and it took me
            some time to decide to shoot there again even with the board fence, but
            the inspector the CAA brought in gave it the gold star and there hasn't
            been any issues so I began shooting again. It's insured, yes, but
            insured or no, I would not want to hurt someone even if I was not liable
            for the costs or criminally. I posted this image to the CalonTAM
            list April 18th, 2006
            http://bramblethorne.org/NonAttachments/CAALayout.png to get opinions
            from other marshals on what they thought of the layout. It was mostly a
            mixed bag.

            As to your saying that you'd not let the fisherperson ruin the day, I'm
            afraid I'd always opt with not shooting if he couldn't be persuaded to
            allow us to shoot safely. I think I can see your point of view, but I
            don't think I'd ever act on it. Different strokes. A day of enjoyable
            shooting wouldn't be worth the risk to me... even if inwardly I'd be
            wanting to give him a friendly boot in the fruit and veg.

            The city has promised us another range.... however, most of you probably
            know what promises like that are like and there's little confidence of
            getting a range that:
            1. equals the old one
            2. exceeds the old one
            3. addresses the safety issues of the old one (the newly arisen or
            legacy issues)
            4. is nearly as nicely convenient for city citizens:
            http://bramblethorne.org/ShireOfTheStandingStones.org/tiki-view_blog_post.php?blogId=1&postId=8
            (drag the map so you can see two map lengths to the west and you'll see
            the downtown and the state univ campus and get an idea of how spoiled we
            have been and what we'll be loosing).
            5. is usable before we die of old age. They will probably build the
            stadium and sell it to a developer once it bleeds the city coffers dry
            before they consider the question of where to put the new site.

            (on a side note, the meetings where the range has been discussed have
            been some of the best attended city council meetings in history. The
            club here is really top notch).

            Keep 'em coming!

            // Merry


            Cecil Hudson wrote:
            > Well met...
            >
            > I have a couple of opinions about this scenario. First of all, I would try to do everything I could to try to keep shooting, starting with patience and just hoping this erstwhile fisherman would go ahead and leave soon. Then I think I WOULD, like you suggest, alter the range in hopes of keep a safe range and still have an enjoyable shoot. Under no circumstance would I allow one belligerent worm soaker ruin what could otherwise be the best shoot I've ever had (one never knows). Since this seems to be a somewhat of a problem with multiple issues, is there a way you can permanently reconfigure your range so that people popping up in these certain locations will no longer be in danger? Or perhaps you can build barriers with bales of straw to intercept errant arrows that could possibly strike unwary interlopers.
            >
            > This is of course discarding the desire to send a few warning shots across the bow of the eco-friendly yet stylish conveyance. =)
            >
            > Cian Rhys Gravenor
            >
            > To: Calontam@yahoogroups.com; SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com; archerymarshal@...; columbiaareaarchers@...
            > From: Merry@...
            > Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 22:38:46 -0500
            > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Go/No-Go Judgement Call. How would you decide.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I enjoy posting questions occasionally for academic purposes from time
            >
            > to time and seeing how others perceive things and what judgments they
            >
            > would make.
            >
            >
            >
            > Take a gander at these photos if you would:
            >
            > http://photos.shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649
            >
            >
            >
            > We were setting up for our weekly shire archery practice at the range
            >
            > maintained by the Columbia Area Archers and I believe the State Dept. of
            >
            > Conservation, and City at the American Legion Hall this Tuesday, when to
            >
            > our disbelief a gentleman in a Toyota Prius drove drove past the
            >
            > chain-link fence and parked at the terminus end of the range. We were
            >
            > surprised, especially as there are signs on the approach and at the ends
            >
            > of the range warning people that it is a hazardous zone. I suppose we
            >
            > should not have been however. Three weeks ago I had to call a 'Hold'
            >
            > when three youths were running back and forth between the fishing lake
            >
            > on the right side and the batting cages on the left hand side. I kept
            >
            > thinking I was seeing a bird zip back and forth through the slats in the
            >
            > fence at the end of the range and was horrified when I realized what I
            >
            > was seeing. I'm a third of a century on this planet and that the
            >
            > foolishness of people, especially with regards to their own safety still
            >
            > surprises me just proves that I either have a misplaced faith in
            >
            > human-kind, or I am indeed a very slow learner.
            >
            >
            >
            > Our group marshal politely spoke to this would be perforated fisherman
            >
            > to let him know of the danger he and/or his vehicle could be in. I
            >
            > understand that he was rather huffy in replying that he did it all the
            >
            > time and didn't appreciate our concern for his safety and he refused to
            >
            > move his car (he'd have to walk his equipment in/out from a longer
            >
            > distance), or choose a safer location from which to fish. From the
            >
            > butts we chose to use, his vehicle was well within the 45 degree danger
            >
            > zone most archery safety rules try to honor. Had we been shooting at
            >
            > any of the more distant butts, he himself would have been within the 45
            >
            > degree danger zone.
            >
            >
            >
            > So. My question to you on the Calontir Archery Marshal and SCA Archery
            >
            > groups is... What would your judgment call have been on this? Would
            >
            > you have continued shooting? Would you have altered your range usage...
            >
            > say, perhaps, shooting from a slightly off-perpendicular angle or
            >
            > eschewed the longer range targets to decrease the danger. Would you
            >
            > have packed it in and not shot at all? The photos are perhaps not
            >
            > perfect for conveying depth and relative locations, but they were the
            >
            > best I could do with a little camera phone.
            >
            >
            >
            > I really should not be surprised. Several times in the past, we've had
            >
            > to hold the range and alert fisher's to the danger they might be in if
            >
            > range activity were to be resumed if they continued to the place they
            >
            > intended to fish from. In the first photo there's a dark evergreen tree
            >
            > on the right hand side and it seems that to the left of that tree is a
            >
            > favorite spot on the bank. Nobody seems to make the mental connection
            >
            > that it's within skewering distance of a practice area for very lethal
            >
            > weapons. Likewise people have often taken shortcuts around the back of
            >
            > the dam rather than walk a slightly longer distance when they employ the
            >
            > fishing technique I use most.... namely give up on this spot and find
            >
            > another one.... every 5 minutes.... because the fish obviously aren't
            >
            > biting here (As a fisherman I'm a fairly adept archer. As an archer,
            >
            > I'm a fairly adept kindling crafter. If he had previously had a chance
            >
            > to see me in action on an archery range I think he would have judged the
            >
            > safest place for him to fish from on that pond to be somewhere three
            >
            > miles distant to my immediate rear.). My insides tighten up harshly
            >
            > when they pull this stunt because inevitably they emerge into a place of
            >
            > danger without our ever having seen them in time to give warning and
            >
            > hold the range. It means as well that they've been in danger for
            >
            > several yards already too. A couple of years before it had to be
            >
            > brought to the attention of the city that the new batting cages they
            >
            > were putting in right next to the end of the range on the left hand side
            >
            > might be something of a safety concern. I don't know if people just
            >
            > don't think about it, or if they don't realize that these are not the
            >
            > suction-cup 'injun' arrows we used in trouble with when our sisters
            >
            > complained to Mom that we'd been shooting them and counting coup.
            >
            >
            >
            > The ground was pretty sloppy wet after morning rain and we had to tread
            >
            > carefully so as not to damage the grass while using the range. I never
            >
            > looked to see if the Prius had abused the lovely grass, but I'm hopeful
            >
            > that it didn't. For all I think he was foolish with his safety and that
            >
            > of his horse, he was very careful and deliberate when driving in and out.
            >
            >
            >
            > I'm including the CAA club as I wouldn't mind having hearing the
            >
            > opinions of others who regularly use (and care for) the range. There's
            >
            > a lot of expertise there and much of it is of quite a different nature
            >
            > than that of those of us who shoot traditional archery in medieval
            >
            > reenactment. I would be interested in hearing their perspectives as well.
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --

            // Merry

            ----------
            'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
            Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
            Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
            http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
            ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

            'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
            pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
          • Carolus
            Looking at all the posts on this issue I would declare this range unsafe for use. Signs are no good for protection, they only make it easier to win an
            Message 5 of 20 , May 28, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Looking at all the posts on this issue I would declare this range
              unsafe for use. Signs are no good for protection, they only make it
              easier to win an expensive lawsuit. That said, The local modern
              safety and regulatory officials should be notified if the trespassers
              are actually in violation of posted restrictions. Regardless, it
              appears that would be a useless action if the local powers are as set
              as you describe and the range is already scheduled for closure. The
              best bet is to gather as many supporters as possible and make a
              concerted campaign on getting a new site. I would suggest getting
              together under the local archery club banner and working with the
              state archery association as well.
              Carolus

              At 08:38 PM 5/27/2008, you wrote:

              >I enjoy posting questions occasionally for academic purposes from time
              >to time and seeing how others perceive things and what judgments they
              >would make.
              >
              >Take a gander at these photos if you would:
              ><http://photos.shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649>http://photos.shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649
              >
              >We were setting up for our weekly shire archery practice at the range
              >maintained by the Columbia Area Archers and I believe the State Dept. of
              >Conservation, and City at the American Legion Hall this Tuesday, when to
              >our disbelief a gentleman in a Toyota Prius drove drove past the
              >chain-link fence and parked at the terminus end of the range. We were
              >surprised, especially as there are signs on the approach and at the ends
              >of the range warning people that it is a hazardous zone. I suppose we
              >should not have been however. Three weeks ago I had to call a 'Hold'
              >when three youths were running back and forth between the fishing lake
              >on the right side and the batting cages on the left hand side. I kept
              >thinking I was seeing a bird zip back and forth through the slats in the
              >fence at the end of the range and was horrified when I realized what I
              >was seeing. I'm a third of a century on this planet and that the
              >foolishness of people, especially with regards to their own safety still
              >surprises me just proves that I either have a misplaced faith in
              >human-kind, or I am indeed a very slow learner.
              >
              >Our group marshal politely spoke to this would be perforated fisherman
              >to let him know of the danger he and/or his vehicle could be in. I
              >understand that he was rather huffy in replying that he did it all the
              >time and didn't appreciate our concern for his safety and he refused to
              >move his car (he'd have to walk his equipment in/out from a longer
              >distance), or choose a safer location from which to fish. From the
              >butts we chose to use, his vehicle was well within the 45 degree danger
              >zone most archery safety rules try to honor. Had we been shooting at
              >any of the more distant butts, he himself would have been within the 45
              >degree danger zone.
              >
              >So. My question to you on the Calontir Archery Marshal and SCA Archery
              >groups is... What would your judgment call have been on this? Would
              >you have continued shooting? Would you have altered your range usage...
              >say, perhaps, shooting from a slightly off-perpendicular angle or
              >eschewed the longer range targets to decrease the danger. Would you
              >have packed it in and not shot at all? The photos are perhaps not
              >perfect for conveying depth and relative locations, but they were the
              >best I could do with a little camera phone.
              >
              >I really should not be surprised. Several times in the past, we've had
              >to hold the range and alert fisher's to the danger they might be in if
              >range activity were to be resumed if they continued to the place they
              >intended to fish from. In the first photo there's a dark evergreen tree
              >on the right hand side and it seems that to the left of that tree is a
              >favorite spot on the bank. Nobody seems to make the mental connection
              >that it's within skewering distance of a practice area for very lethal
              >weapons. Likewise people have often taken shortcuts around the back of
              >the dam rather than walk a slightly longer distance when they employ the
              >fishing technique I use most.... namely give up on this spot and find
              >another one.... every 5 minutes.... because the fish obviously aren't
              >biting here (As a fisherman I'm a fairly adept archer. As an archer,
              >I'm a fairly adept kindling crafter. If he had previously had a chance
              >to see me in action on an archery range I think he would have judged the
              >safest place for him to fish from on that pond to be somewhere three
              >miles distant to my immediate rear.). My insides tighten up harshly
              >when they pull this stunt because inevitably they emerge into a place of
              >danger without our ever having seen them in time to give warning and
              >hold the range. It means as well that they've been in danger for
              >several yards already too. A couple of years before it had to be
              >brought to the attention of the city that the new batting cages they
              >were putting in right next to the end of the range on the left hand side
              >might be something of a safety concern. I don't know if people just
              >don't think about it, or if they don't realize that these are not the
              >suction-cup 'injun' arrows we used in trouble with when our sisters
              >complained to Mom that we'd been shooting them and counting coup.
              >
              >The ground was pretty sloppy wet after morning rain and we had to tread
              >carefully so as not to damage the grass while using the range. I never
              >looked to see if the Prius had abused the lovely grass, but I'm hopeful
              >that it didn't. For all I think he was foolish with his safety and that
              >of his horse, he was very careful and deliberate when driving in and out.
              >
              >I'm including the CAA club as I wouldn't mind having hearing the
              >opinions of others who regularly use (and care for) the range. There's
              >a lot of expertise there and much of it is of quite a different nature
              >than that of those of us who shoot traditional archery in medieval
              >reenactment. I would be interested in hearing their perspectives as well.
              >
              >--
              >
              >// Merry
              >
              >----------
              >'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
              >Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
              >Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
              ><http://Thistledowne.org/>http://Thistledowne.org/
              >http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
              >ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....
              >
              >'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
              >pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
              >
              >
              >No virus found in this incoming message.
              >Checked by AVG.
              >Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date:
              >5/27/2008 1:25 PM
            • Fritz
              When Merry Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre put fingers to keys it was 5/27/08 11:38 PM... ... Well then, I think some of us should come on down here and lean
              Message 6 of 20 , May 28, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                When 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre put fingers to keys it
                was 5/27/08 11:38 PM...

                > I enjoy posting questions occasionally for academic purposes from time
                > to time and seeing how others perceive things and what judgments they
                > would make.
                > ...
                > Our group marshal politely spoke to this would be perforated fisherman
                > to let him know of the danger he and/or his vehicle could be in. I
                > understand that he was rather huffy in replying that he did it all the
                > time and didn't appreciate our concern for his safety and he refused to
                > move his car (he'd have to walk his equipment in/out from a longer
                > distance), or choose a safer location from which to fish.

                "Well then, I think some of us should come on down here and lean against
                your car to keep it protected and wave off any other archers that might
                come to the line, and the rest of us might as well come help you fish,
                'cause while you're here, we can't shoot."

                --
                Fritz
                Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.
              • Frederick Fenters
                I am going to make a few assumptions here in order to make a statement. First is that you have legal permission to use the range area in question. Second, the
                Message 7 of 20 , May 28, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  I am going to make a few assumptions here in order to make a statement.
                  First is that you have legal permission to use the range area in question.
                  Second, the local police are aware that you are shooting here and have
                  permission. Third, the bloody idiot is not an archer, nor probably any kind
                  of target marksman.



                  For the future, I would look into procuring some of that bright yellow
                  "CAUTION" tape, a large sign that says, "DANGER!!! Archery Impact Area"
                  that can be set up in the access drive, and a couple of similar signs to
                  post near the areas where your pedestrians appear. Procuring a letter from
                  the local authorities that you are legally using the area and have the right
                  to limit access would be a very good thing, though likely difficult. Even
                  just making sure that the local police know you are there with permission
                  and trying to limit your impact on others is a good idea.



                  As for how I would handle the situation in your pix, I would have put the
                  archers stand as far to the right as possible and let them have at it. The
                  person was warned and you have a legal right to pursue you planned
                  activities as long as you have the proper permissions to be there. I WOULD
                  advise contacting the local police, explaining what steps you have taken,
                  and asking them if there is anything further you need do. Politely asking
                  to have the vehicle AND person removed is probably within your legal rights.



                  For more horror stories regarding ranges, contact me off list.



                  Forester Padraig MacRaighne, Pentamere Regional Archery Marshal Emeritus

                  _____

                  From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:39 PM
                  To: Calontam@yahoogroups.com; SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com;
                  archerymarshal@...; Columbia Area Archers
                  Subject: [SCA-Archery] Go/No-Go Judgement Call. How would you decide.



                  I enjoy posting questions occasionally for academic purposes from time
                  to time and seeing how others perceive things and what judgments they
                  would make.

                  Take a gander at these photos if you would:
                  http://photos.
                  <http://photos.shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649>
                  shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649

                  We were setting up for our weekly shire archery practice at the range
                  maintained by the Columbia Area Archers and I believe the State Dept. of
                  Conservation, and City at the American Legion Hall this Tuesday, when to
                  our disbelief a gentleman in a Toyota Prius drove drove past the
                  chain-link fence and parked at the terminus end of the range. We were
                  surprised, especially as there are signs on the approach and at the ends
                  of the range warning people that it is a hazardous zone. I suppose we
                  should not have been however. Three weeks ago I had to call a 'Hold'
                  when three youths were running back and forth between the fishing lake
                  on the right side and the batting cages on the left hand side. I kept
                  thinking I was seeing a bird zip back and forth through the slats in the
                  fence at the end of the range and was horrified when I realized what I
                  was seeing. I'm a third of a century on this planet and that the
                  foolishness of people, especially with regards to their own safety still
                  surprises me just proves that I either have a misplaced faith in
                  human-kind, or I am indeed a very slow learner.

                  Our group marshal politely spoke to this would be perforated fisherman
                  to let him know of the danger he and/or his vehicle could be in. I
                  understand that he was rather huffy in replying that he did it all the
                  time and didn't appreciate our concern for his safety and he refused to
                  move his car (he'd have to walk his equipment in/out from a longer
                  distance), or choose a safer location from which to fish. From the
                  butts we chose to use, his vehicle was well within the 45 degree danger
                  zone most archery safety rules try to honor. Had we been shooting at
                  any of the more distant butts, he himself would have been within the 45
                  degree danger zone.

                  So. My question to you on the Calontir Archery Marshal and SCA Archery
                  groups is... What would your judgment call have been on this? Would
                  you have continued shooting? Would you have altered your range usage...
                  say, perhaps, shooting from a slightly off-perpendicular angle or
                  eschewed the longer range targets to decrease the danger. Would you
                  have packed it in and not shot at all? The photos are perhaps not
                  perfect for conveying depth and relative locations, but they were the
                  best I could do with a little camera phone.

                  I really should not be surprised. Several times in the past, we've had
                  to hold the range and alert fisher's to the danger they might be in if
                  range activity were to be resumed if they continued to the place they
                  intended to fish from. In the first photo there's a dark evergreen tree
                  on the right hand side and it seems that to the left of that tree is a
                  favorite spot on the bank. Nobody seems to make the mental connection
                  that it's within skewering distance of a practice area for very lethal
                  weapons. Likewise people have often taken shortcuts around the back of
                  the dam rather than walk a slightly longer distance when they employ the
                  fishing technique I use most.... namely give up on this spot and find
                  another one.... every 5 minutes.... because the fish obviously aren't
                  biting here (As a fisherman I'm a fairly adept archer. As an archer,
                  I'm a fairly adept kindling crafter. If he had previously had a chance
                  to see me in action on an archery range I think he would have judged the
                  safest place for him to fish from on that pond to be somewhere three
                  miles distant to my immediate rear.). My insides tighten up harshly
                  when they pull this stunt because inevitably they emerge into a place of
                  danger without our ever having seen them in time to give warning and
                  hold the range. It means as well that they've been in danger for
                  several yards already too. A couple of years before it had to be
                  brought to the attention of the city that the new batting cages they
                  were putting in right next to the end of the range on the left hand side
                  might be something of a safety concern. I don't know if people just
                  don't think about it, or if they don't realize that these are not the
                  suction-cup 'injun' arrows we used in trouble with when our sisters
                  complained to Mom that we'd been shooting them and counting coup.

                  The ground was pretty sloppy wet after morning rain and we had to tread
                  carefully so as not to damage the grass while using the range. I never
                  looked to see if the Prius had abused the lovely grass, but I'm hopeful
                  that it didn't. For all I think he was foolish with his safety and that
                  of his horse, he was very careful and deliberate when driving in and out.

                  I'm including the CAA club as I wouldn't mind having hearing the
                  opinions of others who regularly use (and care for) the range. There's
                  a lot of expertise there and much of it is of quite a different nature
                  than that of those of us who shoot traditional archery in medieval
                  reenactment. I would be interested in hearing their perspectives as well.

                  --

                  // Merry

                  ----------
                  'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                  Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                  Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
                  http://Thistledowne <http://Thistledowne.org/> .org/ http://ShireOfStand
                  <http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/> ingStones.org/
                  ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

                  'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
                  pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Hobbe
                  ... You have a fenced in area to shoot in. Your safety zone greatly exceeds this area. Either make your safe zone fit into this area or stop shooting when
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 28, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder
                    Lutre <Merry@...> wrote:
                    >
                    You have a fenced in area to shoot in.
                    Your safety zone greatly exceeds this area.
                    Either make your safe zone fit into this area or stop shooting when
                    others use the safety zone outside the fence.
                    ~Hobbe

                    I refer you to:
                    http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/archery/target_archery_rule
                    s.pdf

                    Which has this:

                    Suggested Range Dimensions
                    The following are suggested dimensions for the range and safety zones
                    for target and specialty competitions. These are general guidelines.
                    The actual sizes may vary, depending on terrain, the archers, and
                    other conditions. It is better to err on the side of safety with too
                    much space than not enough.

                    Target Shoots

                    1. The safety zone behind the farthest target should extend at least
                    40 yards back, or for half the distance from the line to the farthest
                    target, whichever is greater.

                    2. For shoots of 50 yards or less, the safety zone to the sides of
                    the shooting line and targets should extend outward at a 30- to 45-
                    degree angle from both ends of the shooting line to a line even with
                    the furthest target, and continue straight back from there to the
                    required distance.

                    3. For shoots of over 50 yards, the safety zone to the sides of the
                    shooting line and targets should extend outward at a 30- to 45-degree
                    angle from both ends of the shooting line to a line 50 yards away or
                    one-quarter the distance to the far end of the safety zone, whichever
                    is greater, and continue straight back from there to the required
                    distance.
                  • THL Caedmon Wilson
                    If it were just the car, I would keep the range open. I would ask the archers to avoid obtuse angles by staying in front of their target and I would avoid
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 28, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      If it were just the car, I would keep the range open. I would ask the
                      archers to avoid obtuse angles by staying in front of their target and
                      I would avoid using the targets closest to the fence to assist in
                      avoiding mistakes. I take it upon myself when I am a range marshal to
                      ask an archer to NOT shoot a long targets if they show themselves
                      incapable of safely shooting at them. Ultimately, no archery range is
                      completely safe if someone decides to fire off an arrow at 42 degrees
                      at max draw.

                      The kids running behind the fence, though, is another issue. They
                      were DIRECTLY behind your targets and is cause for stopping of
                      shooting.

                      -Caedmon
                    • logantheboweyder
                      Exactly correct answer, Hobbe. This isn t a judgement call. It s in black and white. Marshall in charge needs to follow rules exactly as they are written as
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 28, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Exactly correct answer, Hobbe. This isn't a judgement call. It's
                        in black and white. Marshall in charge needs to follow rules
                        exactly as they are written as a minimum, and I would imagine that
                        if this were the Standing Stones weekly practice, the Kingdom
                        Archery Marshall General was right there to see that they were.

                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Hobbe" <clanyoungvp@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach
                        Mirywoder
                        > Lutre <Merry@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > You have a fenced in area to shoot in.
                        > Your safety zone greatly exceeds this area.
                        > Either make your safe zone fit into this area or stop shooting
                        when
                        > others use the safety zone outside the fence.
                        > ~Hobbe
                        >
                        > I refer you to:
                        >
                        http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/archery/target_archery_rul
                        e
                        > s.pdf
                        >
                        > Which has this:
                        >
                        > Suggested Range Dimensions
                        > The following are suggested dimensions for the range and safety
                        zones
                        > for target and specialty competitions. These are general
                        guidelines.
                        > The actual sizes may vary, depending on terrain, the archers, and
                        > other conditions. It is better to err on the side of safety with
                        too
                        > much space than not enough.
                        >
                        > Target Shoots
                        >
                        > 1. The safety zone behind the farthest target should extend at
                        least
                        > 40 yards back, or for half the distance from the line to the
                        farthest
                        > target, whichever is greater.
                        >
                        > 2. For shoots of 50 yards or less, the safety zone to the sides of
                        > the shooting line and targets should extend outward at a 30- to 45-
                        > degree angle from both ends of the shooting line to a line even
                        with
                        > the furthest target, and continue straight back from there to the
                        > required distance.
                        >
                        > 3. For shoots of over 50 yards, the safety zone to the sides of
                        the
                        > shooting line and targets should extend outward at a 30- to 45-
                        degree
                        > angle from both ends of the shooting line to a line 50 yards away
                        or
                        > one-quarter the distance to the far end of the safety zone,
                        whichever
                        > is greater, and continue straight back from there to the required
                        > distance.
                        >
                      • Harald Warrocker
                        Since the life of the range is limited.... I agree with Merry that I would not shoot when someone was back there. (I probably would go watch him fish and toss
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 28, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Since the life of the range is limited....

                          I agree with Merry that I would not shoot when someone was back there. (I
                          probably would go watch him fish and toss stones in the water etc...) On the
                          practical side; I would post one or two people with radios to watch the
                          access so you could hold the range before anyone was exposed to an errant
                          shot. This would also let you speak to people before they entered the area
                          and maybe redirect them.

                          In Service
                          Harald Warrocker

                          On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 8:38 PM, 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre <
                          Merry@...> wrote:

                          > I enjoy posting questions occasionally for academic purposes from time
                          > to time and seeing how others perceive things and what judgments they
                          > would make.
                          >
                          > Take a gander at these photos if you would:
                          > http://photos.shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649
                          >
                          > We were setting up for our weekly shire archery practice at the range
                          > maintained by the Columbia Area Archers and I believe the State Dept. of
                          > Conservation, and City at the American Legion Hall this Tuesday, when to
                          > our disbelief a gentleman in a Toyota Prius drove drove past the
                          > chain-link fence and parked at the terminus end of the range. We were
                          > surprised, especially as there are signs on the approach and at the ends
                          > of the range warning people that it is a hazardous zone. I suppose we
                          > should not have been however. Three weeks ago I had to call a 'Hold'
                          > when three youths were running back and forth between the fishing lake
                          > on the right side and the batting cages on the left hand side. I kept
                          > thinking I was seeing a bird zip back and forth through the slats in the
                          > fence at the end of the range and was horrified when I realized what I
                          > was seeing. I'm a third of a century on this planet and that the
                          > foolishness of people, especially with regards to their own safety still
                          > surprises me just proves that I either have a misplaced faith in
                          > human-kind, or I am indeed a very slow learner.
                          >
                          > Our group marshal politely spoke to this would be perforated fisherman
                          > to let him know of the danger he and/or his vehicle could be in. I
                          > understand that he was rather huffy in replying that he did it all the
                          > time and didn't appreciate our concern for his safety and he refused to
                          > move his car (he'd have to walk his equipment in/out from a longer
                          > distance), or choose a safer location from which to fish. From the
                          > butts we chose to use, his vehicle was well within the 45 degree danger
                          > zone most archery safety rules try to honor. Had we been shooting at
                          > any of the more distant butts, he himself would have been within the 45
                          > degree danger zone.
                          >
                          > So. My question to you on the Calontir Archery Marshal and SCA Archery
                          > groups is... What would your judgment call have been on this? Would
                          > you have continued shooting? Would you have altered your range usage...
                          > say, perhaps, shooting from a slightly off-perpendicular angle or
                          > eschewed the longer range targets to decrease the danger. Would you
                          > have packed it in and not shot at all? The photos are perhaps not
                          > perfect for conveying depth and relative locations, but they were the
                          > best I could do with a little camera phone.
                          >
                          > I really should not be surprised. Several times in the past, we've had
                          > to hold the range and alert fisher's to the danger they might be in if
                          > range activity were to be resumed if they continued to the place they
                          > intended to fish from. In the first photo there's a dark evergreen tree
                          > on the right hand side and it seems that to the left of that tree is a
                          > favorite spot on the bank. Nobody seems to make the mental connection
                          > that it's within skewering distance of a practice area for very lethal
                          > weapons. Likewise people have often taken shortcuts around the back of
                          > the dam rather than walk a slightly longer distance when they employ the
                          > fishing technique I use most.... namely give up on this spot and find
                          > another one.... every 5 minutes.... because the fish obviously aren't
                          > biting here (As a fisherman I'm a fairly adept archer. As an archer,
                          > I'm a fairly adept kindling crafter. If he had previously had a chance
                          > to see me in action on an archery range I think he would have judged the
                          > safest place for him to fish from on that pond to be somewhere three
                          > miles distant to my immediate rear.). My insides tighten up harshly
                          > when they pull this stunt because inevitably they emerge into a place of
                          > danger without our ever having seen them in time to give warning and
                          > hold the range. It means as well that they've been in danger for
                          > several yards already too. A couple of years before it had to be
                          > brought to the attention of the city that the new batting cages they
                          > were putting in right next to the end of the range on the left hand side
                          > might be something of a safety concern. I don't know if people just
                          > don't think about it, or if they don't realize that these are not the
                          > suction-cup 'injun' arrows we used in trouble with when our sisters
                          > complained to Mom that we'd been shooting them and counting coup.
                          >
                          > The ground was pretty sloppy wet after morning rain and we had to tread
                          > carefully so as not to damage the grass while using the range. I never
                          > looked to see if the Prius had abused the lovely grass, but I'm hopeful
                          > that it didn't. For all I think he was foolish with his safety and that
                          > of his horse, he was very careful and deliberate when driving in and out.
                          >
                          > I'm including the CAA club as I wouldn't mind having hearing the
                          > opinions of others who regularly use (and care for) the range. There's
                          > a lot of expertise there and much of it is of quite a different nature
                          > than that of those of us who shoot traditional archery in medieval
                          > reenactment. I would be interested in hearing their perspectives as well.
                          >
                          > --
                          >
                          > // Merry
                          >
                          > ----------
                          > 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                          > Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                          > Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
                          > http://Thistledowne.org/ <http://thistledowne.org/>
                          > http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/ <http://shireofstandingstones.org/>
                          > ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....
                          >
                          > 'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
                          > pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          Azure, on a cross argent between four arrows in saltire points to center Or,
                          a drawknife sable.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
                          Since this is a range maintained by a mundane archery club, with maybe some ties to the State dept. of conservation and the City... here are my thoughts: 1.
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 28, 2008
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                            Since this is a range maintained by a mundane archery club, with maybe some ties
                            to the State dept. of conservation and the City... here are my thoughts:

                            1. Shooting would cease immediately regardless of who was in the wrong. Driving
                            past posted areas does not come with a penalty of possible death, unless you're
                            trying to sneak into area 51.

                            2. Has the issue been brought up to the archery club? They have the burden of
                            providing or limiting access to and around the archery range, with city approval
                            and also with State approval, with appropriate posting. Is the archery club aware
                            that our traditional equipment can do as much if not more damage, within the
                            ranges most archery clubs shoot at?

                            3. The wooden slats at the end are no safety barrier, and that issue should be
                            brought to the attention of the club and the city.

                            4. The refusal of the person to move his vehicle, should have resulted in the
                            taking of name and license plate. That can then be turned in to the archery club.
                            If this is a repeat offender, then the mundane authorities should be called, and
                            is an option to do firstly.

                            5. Lastly, this is an unsafe range. It is obviously not well marked and the
                            authorities over it and the land may not care how marked it is. I would not
                            continue to hold ANY official SCA practice here forthwith. Try to stay in the
                            good graces of the archery club, as that can be invaluable for obtaining good
                            shooting range in the future. Locally, many of us have membership into the club
                            that we hold practice at, so there is a vested interest in what happens at the
                            ranges, and those of us with membership have authority to police activities at
                            the range, outside of SCA practices or events.

                            There's my two bits.

                            Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
                            Kingdom Archer General,
                            Kingdom of Artemisia.

                            ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net
                          • Frederick Fenters
                            I am interspersing my thoughts below. This situation is causing far more controversy than it deserves. Padraig _____ From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 28, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I am interspersing my thoughts below. This situation is causing far more
                              controversy than it deserves.



                              Padraig



                              _____

                              From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
                              Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:19 PM
                              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Go/No-Go Judgement Call. How would you decide.



                              Since this is a range maintained by a mundane archery club, with maybe some
                              ties
                              to the State dept. of conservation and the City... here are my thoughts:

                              1. Shooting would cease immediately regardless of who was in the wrong.
                              Driving
                              past posted areas does not come with a penalty of possible death, unless
                              you're
                              trying to sneak into area 51.

                              I agree that shooting should stop until the issue has been discussed with
                              the trespasser. If the range has posted "Do Not Enter", then contacting
                              mundane authorities is the correct step to take if the person refuses to
                              move. Assuming that the person is out of range, I still would adjust my
                              gates to maximize angle and allow limited shooting.



                              2. Has the issue been brought up to the archery club? They have the burden
                              of
                              providing or limiting access to and around the archery range, with city
                              approval
                              and also with State approval, with appropriate posting. Is the archery club
                              aware
                              that our traditional equipment can do as much if not more damage, within the
                              ranges most archery clubs shoot at?

                              I would not phrase this in quite this way. I think that the people
                              responsible for the range should be reminded that ALL archery equipment is
                              indeed deadly weaponry and that allowing the public to disregard safety
                              rules, even by the simple means of not correctly blocking access opens the
                              proprieters of the range to lawsuits.



                              3. The wooden slats at the end are no safety barrier, and that issue should
                              be
                              brought to the attention of the club and the city.

                              See my response above. The slat fence is far enough away that the area in
                              front of it is adequate, if marginal.



                              4. The refusal of the person to move his vehicle, should have resulted in
                              the
                              taking of name and license plate. That can then be turned in to the archery
                              club.
                              If this is a repeat offender, then the mundane authorities should be called,
                              and
                              is an option to do firstly.

                              It does not matter how often the issue has arisen. If the individual is
                              trespassing and refuses to leave when confronted, the authorities should be
                              contacted and asked to remove him. The same is true for the vehicle. The
                              SCA shooters have the right, as citizens of the local area and authorized
                              users of the facility to contact mundane authorities and have the person
                              removed by whatever means is required. WE DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY DEAD!



                              5. Lastly, this is an unsafe range. It is obviously not well marked and the
                              authorities over it and the land may not care how marked it is. I would not
                              continue to hold ANY official SCA practice here forthwith. Try to stay in
                              the
                              good graces of the archery club, as that can be invaluable for obtaining
                              good
                              shooting range in the future. Locally, many of us have membership into the
                              club
                              that we hold practice at, so there is a vested interest in what happens at
                              the
                              ranges, and those of us with membership have authority to police activities
                              at
                              the range, outside of SCA practices or events.
                              I do not agree. The Range is clearly delineated by the fences. If there is
                              inadequate blockage of access to the sideline areas, that is what signage
                              and safety ropes, lines, tape, or flags are for. Anyone who ignores
                              warnings that his/her/its actions are unsafe deserves to suffer the
                              consequences. All measures to make the range safe, including adjusting the
                              angle of the line, can be taken and, assuming the range is rendered safe, IN
                              THE OPINION OF THE SENIOR MARSHAL ON SITE, it can still be used.
                              There's my two bits.

                              Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
                              Kingdom Archer General,
                              Kingdom of Artemisia.

                              ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone
                              <http://www.cableone.net> .net





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Jeff Morton
                              ... I disagree. I m guessing the 3 target ranges apparent in the photo are at 20, 30, and 40 yards? The slat fence is decidedly closer than 40 yards behind
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 28, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                >
                                > 3. The wooden slats at the end are no safety barrier, and that issue should
                                > be
                                > brought to the attention of the club and the city.
                                >
                                > See my response above. The slat fence is far enough away that the area in
                                > front of it is adequate, if marginal.
                                >

                                I disagree. I'm guessing the 3 target ranges apparent in the photo are at
                                20, 30, and 40 yards? The slat fence is decidedly closer than 40 yards
                                behind the 40 yard target, and looks like it might be only about 30 yards
                                behind the 20 yard target, plus it obscures the view of whatever's behind
                                it, but does not protect anyone behind it from descending arrows. I see the
                                fence as a safety hazard independent of the individual fishing, and if
                                people have actually walked behind it undetected until emerging from the
                                side, I think this alone is worthy of the range not meeting SCA standards.

                                As far as the individual fishing goes, if the individual is 80 yards from
                                the line, he's outside the safety zone and should be ok. For future
                                reference, it might be useful to measure various points from the line (such
                                as trees) so that the marshal may easily see if someone is walking into the
                                safety zone. His vehicle isn't outside the safety zone, but he's already
                                been informed of the danger of parking within the safety zone of the archery
                                range, so its up to him if he doesn't want to walk an extra 30 yards and
                                instead put his property at risk.


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Bill Brown
                                I rarely chime in as most discussions have at least one person expressing my exact position however I must make my view known on this one. I am pleased to hear
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 28, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I rarely chime in as most discussions have at least one person expressing my
                                  exact position however I must make my view known on this one. I am pleased
                                  to hear you have such concerns and have legitimately sought opinion from
                                  others, this does not change my opinion that this range is unsafe. I know it
                                  is difficult to find a range within a community area, we have the same
                                  problem ourselves however with the cooperation of a local middle schools
                                  back lot we have found what I think is an ideal spot (as we can actually
                                  shoot a flight shoot without the possibility of danger).



                                  The option might be a little different then some of the others as I have
                                  assisted several in setting up a viable range in very limited areas. The
                                  solution I have found to work in cramped quarters is shorter distance and
                                  smaller targets. When "practicing" form and consistence are the main areas
                                  of focus, not scores. By establishing a "closed" range with full protection
                                  (almost an enclosed range) you can replicate the difficulty of distant
                                  targets by using targets that are smaller and smaller to represent the more
                                  distant targets.



                                  A 40 yard target should be 30 cm as it is twice the distance from the
                                  shooter. The 30 yard would be a 45 cm target face. The 20 yard target being
                                  60 cm. This is not a perfect system but it does seem to work well for those
                                  using it. Ie US Military uses this system in indoor ranges, video graphics
                                  also use this system of smaller and smaller targets to represent greater and
                                  greater distances. Use carpet for your backstop and the usual safety
                                  guidelines per SCA and you can fit a decent range in a relatively small
                                  area.



                                  Hope this gives you some ideas





                                  Domingos





                                  From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of Carolus
                                  Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 2:52 AM
                                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Go/No-Go Judgement Call. How would you decide.



                                  Looking at all the posts on this issue I would declare this range
                                  unsafe for use. Signs are no good for protection, they only make it
                                  easier to win an expensive lawsuit. That said, The local modern
                                  safety and regulatory officials should be notified if the trespassers
                                  are actually in violation of posted restrictions. Regardless, it
                                  appears that would be a useless action if the local powers are as set
                                  as you describe and the range is already scheduled for closure. The
                                  best bet is to gather as many supporters as possible and make a
                                  concerted campaign on getting a new site. I would suggest getting
                                  together under the local archery club banner and working with the
                                  state archery association as well.
                                  Carolus

                                  At 08:38 PM 5/27/2008, you wrote:

                                  >I enjoy posting questions occasionally for academic purposes from time
                                  >to time and seeing how others perceive things and what judgments they
                                  >would make.
                                  >
                                  >Take a gander at these photos if you would:
                                  ><http://photos.shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649>http://phot
                                  os.shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649
                                  >
                                  >We were setting up for our weekly shire archery practice at the range
                                  >maintained by the Columbia Area Archers and I believe the State Dept. of
                                  >Conservation, and City at the American Legion Hall this Tuesday, when to
                                  >our disbelief a gentleman in a Toyota Prius drove drove past the
                                  >chain-link fence and parked at the terminus end of the range. We were
                                  >surprised, especially as there are signs on the approach and at the ends
                                  >of the range warning people that it is a hazardous zone. I suppose we
                                  >should not have been however. Three weeks ago I had to call a 'Hold'
                                  >when three youths were running back and forth between the fishing lake
                                  >on the right side and the batting cages on the left hand side. I kept
                                  >thinking I was seeing a bird zip back and forth through the slats in the
                                  >fence at the end of the range and was horrified when I realized what I
                                  >was seeing. I'm a third of a century on this planet and that the
                                  >foolishness of people, especially with regards to their own safety still
                                  >surprises me just proves that I either have a misplaced faith in
                                  >human-kind, or I am indeed a very slow learner.
                                  >
                                  >Our group marshal politely spoke to this would be perforated fisherman
                                  >to let him know of the danger he and/or his vehicle could be in. I
                                  >understand that he was rather huffy in replying that he did it all the
                                  >time and didn't appreciate our concern for his safety and he refused to
                                  >move his car (he'd have to walk his equipment in/out from a longer
                                  >distance), or choose a safer location from which to fish. From the
                                  >butts we chose to use, his vehicle was well within the 45 degree danger
                                  >zone most archery safety rules try to honor. Had we been shooting at
                                  >any of the more distant butts, he himself would have been within the 45
                                  >degree danger zone.
                                  >
                                  >So. My question to you on the Calontir Archery Marshal and SCA Archery
                                  >groups is... What would your judgment call have been on this? Would
                                  >you have continued shooting? Would you have altered your range usage...
                                  >say, perhaps, shooting from a slightly off-perpendicular angle or
                                  >eschewed the longer range targets to decrease the danger. Would you
                                  >have packed it in and not shot at all? The photos are perhaps not
                                  >perfect for conveying depth and relative locations, but they were the
                                  >best I could do with a little camera phone.
                                  >
                                  >I really should not be surprised. Several times in the past, we've had
                                  >to hold the range and alert fisher's to the danger they might be in if
                                  >range activity were to be resumed if they continued to the place they
                                  >intended to fish from. In the first photo there's a dark evergreen tree
                                  >on the right hand side and it seems that to the left of that tree is a
                                  >favorite spot on the bank. Nobody seems to make the mental connection
                                  >that it's within skewering distance of a practice area for very lethal
                                  >weapons. Likewise people have often taken shortcuts around the back of
                                  >the dam rather than walk a slightly longer distance when they employ the
                                  >fishing technique I use most.... namely give up on this spot and find
                                  >another one.... every 5 minutes.... because the fish obviously aren't
                                  >biting here (As a fisherman I'm a fairly adept archer. As an archer,
                                  >I'm a fairly adept kindling crafter. If he had previously had a chance
                                  >to see me in action on an archery range I think he would have judged the
                                  >safest place for him to fish from on that pond to be somewhere three
                                  >miles distant to my immediate rear.). My insides tighten up harshly
                                  >when they pull this stunt because inevitably they emerge into a place of
                                  >danger without our ever having seen them in time to give warning and
                                  >hold the range. It means as well that they've been in danger for
                                  >several yards already too. A couple of years before it had to be
                                  >brought to the attention of the city that the new batting cages they
                                  >were putting in right next to the end of the range on the left hand side
                                  >might be something of a safety concern. I don't know if people just
                                  >don't think about it, or if they don't realize that these are not the
                                  >suction-cup 'injun' arrows we used in trouble with when our sisters
                                  >complained to Mom that we'd been shooting them and counting coup.
                                  >
                                  >The ground was pretty sloppy wet after morning rain and we had to tread
                                  >carefully so as not to damage the grass while using the range. I never
                                  >looked to see if the Prius had abused the lovely grass, but I'm hopeful
                                  >that it didn't. For all I think he was foolish with his safety and that
                                  >of his horse, he was very careful and deliberate when driving in and out.
                                  >
                                  >I'm including the CAA club as I wouldn't mind having hearing the
                                  >opinions of others who regularly use (and care for) the range. There's
                                  >a lot of expertise there and much of it is of quite a different nature
                                  >than that of those of us who shoot traditional archery in medieval
                                  >reenactment. I would be interested in hearing their perspectives as well.
                                  >
                                  >--
                                  >
                                  >// Merry
                                  >
                                  >----------
                                  >'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                                  >Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                                  >Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
                                  ><http://Thistledowne.org/>http://Thistledowne.org/
                                  >http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
                                  >ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....
                                  >
                                  >'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
                                  >pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  >Checked by AVG.
                                  >Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date:
                                  >5/27/2008 1:25 PM





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                                  Ongoing thanks for the discussion. I am enjoying it. I think I failed to mention and it is apropos that I don t think we have any rights or any more rights
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 29, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Ongoing thanks for the discussion. I am enjoying it.

                                    I think I failed to mention and it is apropos that I don't think we have
                                    any rights or any more rights than the fisher gentleman might or might
                                    not have. For all I know he is a member of the American Legion and for
                                    all I know, he has previously gotten permission to drive out there and
                                    perhaps even co-opt the range activity if it was a choice between his
                                    evening's pleasure and our evening's pleasure.

                                    I don't think any of us thought to get his license plate or name. The
                                    photos were just because I had the camera and it was something
                                    interesting to document and then ask you folks for your thoughts on
                                    it. Besides, a good fish story is always better with art.

                                    I don't think we had any rights to enforce or insist upon or rights or
                                    cause to call authorities.

                                    As to some of the other suggestions to go and throw rocks or be noisy or
                                    otherwise be as rude to him as we may feel that he was being to us, we
                                    certainly did discuss things amongst ourselves though never actually
                                    considered it. We're responsible to keep good will between the
                                    community and other groups and the archers in the club and in the region
                                    (including our group). It would have proven very embarrassing and
                                    harmful to the archers in mid Missouri had we done something like this
                                    and found that in the minds of the powers that be that we were in the
                                    wrong. Even if we weren't, it would not have increased good will
                                    towards archery, archers, the club, especially at a time when we are
                                    somewhat 'cap in hand' hoping that when this range is pulled from
                                    beneath us that we will again have a place to shoot, and hopefully even
                                    one with a greater range of facilities and hopefully more foresight
                                    towards safety issues such as these.

                                    Thank you all for your feedback.

                                    He may have felt that he won the day if it was some sort of
                                    confrontation, but in my estimation, we won. We were worried for his
                                    safety and the person who represented our group was polite and honorable
                                    and an excellent representative of the chivalrous ideals of the SCA and
                                    gentlepersons in general.

                                    Frederick Fenters wrote:
                                    > I am interspersing my thoughts below. This situation is causing far more
                                    > controversy than it deserves.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Padraig
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > _____
                                    >
                                    > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > Behalf Of Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:19 PM
                                    > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Go/No-Go Judgement Call. How would you decide.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Since this is a range maintained by a mundane archery club, with maybe some
                                    > ties
                                    > to the State dept. of conservation and the City... here are my thoughts:
                                    >
                                    > 1. Shooting would cease immediately regardless of who was in the wrong.
                                    > Driving
                                    > past posted areas does not come with a penalty of possible death, unless
                                    > you're
                                    > trying to sneak into area 51.
                                    >
                                    > I agree that shooting should stop until the issue has been discussed with
                                    > the trespasser. If the range has posted "Do Not Enter", then contacting
                                    > mundane authorities is the correct step to take if the person refuses to
                                    > move. Assuming that the person is out of range, I still would adjust my
                                    > gates to maximize angle and allow limited shooting.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > 2. Has the issue been brought up to the archery club? They have the burden
                                    > of
                                    > providing or limiting access to and around the archery range, with city
                                    > approval
                                    > and also with State approval, with appropriate posting. Is the archery club
                                    > aware
                                    > that our traditional equipment can do as much if not more damage, within the
                                    > ranges most archery clubs shoot at?
                                    >
                                    > I would not phrase this in quite this way. I think that the people
                                    > responsible for the range should be reminded that ALL archery equipment is
                                    > indeed deadly weaponry and that allowing the public to disregard safety
                                    > rules, even by the simple means of not correctly blocking access opens the
                                    > proprieters of the range to lawsuits.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > 3. The wooden slats at the end are no safety barrier, and that issue should
                                    > be
                                    > brought to the attention of the club and the city.
                                    >
                                    > See my response above. The slat fence is far enough away that the area in
                                    > front of it is adequate, if marginal.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > 4. The refusal of the person to move his vehicle, should have resulted in
                                    > the
                                    > taking of name and license plate. That can then be turned in to the archery
                                    > club.
                                    > If this is a repeat offender, then the mundane authorities should be called,
                                    > and
                                    > is an option to do firstly.
                                    >
                                    > It does not matter how often the issue has arisen. If the individual is
                                    > trespassing and refuses to leave when confronted, the authorities should be
                                    > contacted and asked to remove him. The same is true for the vehicle. The
                                    > SCA shooters have the right, as citizens of the local area and authorized
                                    > users of the facility to contact mundane authorities and have the person
                                    > removed by whatever means is required. WE DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY DEAD!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > 5. Lastly, this is an unsafe range. It is obviously not well marked and the
                                    > authorities over it and the land may not care how marked it is. I would not
                                    > continue to hold ANY official SCA practice here forthwith. Try to stay in
                                    > the
                                    > good graces of the archery club, as that can be invaluable for obtaining
                                    > good
                                    > shooting range in the future. Locally, many of us have membership into the
                                    > club
                                    > that we hold practice at, so there is a vested interest in what happens at
                                    > the
                                    > ranges, and those of us with membership have authority to police activities
                                    > at
                                    > the range, outside of SCA practices or events.
                                    > I do not agree. The Range is clearly delineated by the fences. If there is
                                    > inadequate blockage of access to the sideline areas, that is what signage
                                    > and safety ropes, lines, tape, or flags are for. Anyone who ignores
                                    > warnings that his/her/its actions are unsafe deserves to suffer the
                                    > consequences. All measures to make the range safe, including adjusting the
                                    > angle of the line, can be taken and, assuming the range is rendered safe, IN
                                    > THE OPINION OF THE SENIOR MARSHAL ON SITE, it can still be used.
                                    > There's my two bits.
                                    >
                                    > Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
                                    > Kingdom Archer General,
                                    > Kingdom of Artemisia.
                                    >
                                    > ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone
                                    > <http://www.cableone.net> .net
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >

                                    --

                                    // Merry

                                    ----------
                                    'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                                    Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                                    Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
                                    http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
                                    ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

                                    'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
                                    pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
                                  • Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
                                    I reponded in stating how I would respond to the situation, and my assessment of it. I did not consider the attendance of any marshal, nor are my comments
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 29, 2008
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                                      I reponded in stating how I would respond to the situation, and my
                                      assessment of it. I did not consider the attendance of any marshal, nor
                                      are my comments meant to be construed as my judgement against the action
                                      of any marshal present. Indeed the several paragraphs explaining the
                                      situation did not make clear exactly what course of action took place.

                                      Since the question was put to the list, and input was sought - I
                                      provided my input, and stand by what I said.

                                      Godwin


                                      SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                                      >
                                      > I have read this thread and previous threads started on CalonTAM and
                                      > SCA-Archery groups by the OP. We should all note that the OP is
                                      > not an
                                      > Authorized Archery Marshal in Calontir. He is a relative new to
                                      > the SCA
                                      > and SCA archery.
                                      >
                                      > The OP indicates that the Group Archer Marshal and the Kingdom of
                                      > Calontir Archer General was in attendance during the described
                                      > incident.
                                      >
                                      > I have had no communication with them about this (they are
                                      > friends) so I
                                      > have no inside knowledge of the incident.
                                      >
                                      > What I have read so far indicates to me that this problem was handled
                                      > properly by the appropriate powers that were present. What I am
                                      > concerned about is that the discussion is, in my opinion, drifting
                                      > toward the concept that the marshals present that handled the problem
                                      > did not act appropriately.
                                      >
                                      > I have full faith that the Group Archer Marshal, the Kingdom Archer
                                      > General, the Kingdom of Calontir and if needed, the Society Archer
                                      > Marshal have / are and will, as necessary, handle any problems
                                      > such as this.
                                      >
                                      > I believe that our safety rules were followed and they worked in this
                                      > incident.
                                      >
                                      > Thank you for listening.
                                      >
                                      > Baron Master Hugh Prescott, OP, Sword, etc etc
                                      > Huscarl of Calontir
                                      >
                                      > Back to top <#toc>
                                      > <mailto:hugh@...?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BCalontam%5D%20Go%2FNo-Go%20Judgement%20Call%2E%20%20%20How%20would%20you%20decide%2E>
                                      >
                                    • John and Carol Atkins
                                      ... have ... might ... OH PLEASE! Tell me insanity has NOT invaded the SCA archery community! Rights? Yes, anyone has the right to walk anywhere. But why
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 30, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        > I think I failed to mention and it is apropos that I don't think we
                                        have
                                        > any rights or any more rights than the fisher gentleman might or
                                        might
                                        > not have.

                                        OH PLEASE! Tell me insanity has NOT invaded the SCA archery
                                        community! Rights? Yes, anyone has the "right" to walk anywhere.
                                        But why then do we cordon off archery ranges? To prevent people from
                                        executing their "right" to walk across our ranges while in use? I
                                        have a perfect "right" in this country to walk across a freeway or
                                        for that matter have a picnic in the median of a freeway (see San
                                        Diego illegal aliens walking up the freeway median and the locals
                                        holding card games and picnics in the median because the
                                        police/government said the illegal aliens had the "right" to walk in
                                        the median, but the locals are the ones who paid for it). While I
                                        have this "right" there is a certain self-preservation thing that
                                        comes into effect and causes me to realize that on this day I can't
                                        walk across the freeway. So the question becomes do "rights" trump
                                        reason? Not on my marshal's ranges or I'll yank their warrant!

                                        Christophe of Grey
                                        DEM Target Archery
                                        Atlantia
                                      • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                                        Allow me to clarify as I seem to have touched a nerve. The right being discussed is not the right to put one s self in danger. The right being discussed is,
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 30, 2008
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                                          Allow me to clarify as I seem to have touched a nerve. The right being
                                          discussed is not the right to put one's self in danger. The right
                                          being discussed is, if it came down to a battle between his right to
                                          fish even if it meant the range could not be used, or our right to use
                                          the range and to make him move to a sensible and safe location. We
                                          don't really know. That one person might actually be one of the
                                          American Legion hall members and they might have priority on their land
                                          over all guests. He might also have special dispensation to do exactly
                                          what he did because of some disability (though he looked hale to us...
                                          I'm inclined to think selfish, lazy and stubborn, but I really have no
                                          proof of that either. He may have felt that he was prosecuting his
                                          rights in the situation. He may have been right.)

                                          Insanity has very much not invaded the SCA archery community, or the
                                          community of Columbia (though I think the baseball stadium will loose
                                          money at a very impressive clip.)

                                          We as archers are guests on that site and while we might have the some
                                          rights to insist that he move the following is certainly true:

                                          1. we don't know that to be true and would be fools to make
                                          assumptions. Existence of the range does not ipso facto mean that our
                                          priorities are primary in the grand scheme of things. I've already
                                          demonstrated that we are certainly taking a distant backseat to those
                                          pushing to bring a minor-league baseball stadium to that site.

                                          2. we are both cap-in-hand here and also responsible for promoting
                                          good-will towards all archers if for no other reason than gratitude for
                                          the existence of and use of this very conveniently located and all in
                                          all very nice range for many years. We are hoping that our desire to
                                          have a range to replace the one we're loosing and hopefully one that
                                          will lack the safety drawbacks of the current one and perhaps offer more
                                          facilities (the archery club wishes to have a 3D range and some other
                                          things as well).

                                          We do have rights. We have rights to be booted off the range if we
                                          start telling other people what the can and cannot do w/o first
                                          ascertaining how strong our position is and how we're regarded. We
                                          have the right to be treated as the ingrates we are if we start making
                                          demands from our generous hosts.

                                          Now... this is all our situation. It's possible if we're truly
                                          discussing the photos and diagram as completely hypothetical and the
                                          range wasn't under the cloud of being closed and we owned it and
                                          contributed to it that I would completely agree with your indignation.
                                          We should assertively prosecute our prerogative and if idiots decide to
                                          endanger themselves act in full accordance of our permitted rights to
                                          have them removed and/or prosecuted.

                                          You are absolutely correct however in that rights should never trump
                                          reason. It's just possible though that in this situation we would have
                                          had to yield the field if it came to a confrontation and let him fish
                                          while the field sat idle.

                                          Cheers.

                                          P.s., as the CAA was sent a copy of the original message with the
                                          photos, I would be very gratified to find out that that he didn't have
                                          permission to be driving his car out when the ground was soggy (or at
                                          all) and that he was reprimanded. I doubt anything will ever come of it
                                          however. Heck.. for all I know, he have owned the land and donated it
                                          to the American Legion hall 30 years ago with the understanding that he
                                          could fish it when and how he wanted. Since we're talking
                                          hypotheticals here.


                                          John and Carol Atkins wrote:
                                          >> I think I failed to mention and it is apropos that I don't think we
                                          >>
                                          > have
                                          >
                                          >> any rights or any more rights than the fisher gentleman might or
                                          >>
                                          > might
                                          >
                                          >> not have.
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          > OH PLEASE! Tell me insanity has NOT invaded the SCA archery
                                          > community! Rights? Yes, anyone has the "right" to walk anywhere.
                                          > But why then do we cordon off archery ranges? To prevent people from
                                          > executing their "right" to walk across our ranges while in use? I
                                          > have a perfect "right" in this country to walk across a freeway or
                                          > for that matter have a picnic in the median of a freeway (see San
                                          > Diego illegal aliens walking up the freeway median and the locals
                                          > holding card games and picnics in the median because the
                                          > police/government said the illegal aliens had the "right" to walk in
                                          > the median, but the locals are the ones who paid for it). While I
                                          > have this "right" there is a certain self-preservation thing that
                                          > comes into effect and causes me to realize that on this day I can't
                                          > walk across the freeway. So the question becomes do "rights" trump
                                          > reason? Not on my marshal's ranges or I'll yank their warrant!
                                          >
                                          > Christophe of Grey
                                          > DEM Target Archery
                                          > Atlantia
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          >

                                          --

                                          // Merry

                                          ----------
                                          'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                                          Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                                          Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
                                          http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
                                          ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

                                          'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
                                          pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • arturdubh
                                          I would make sure to have a good supply of waivers for the boneheads to sign, so that WHEN they are skewered and they try to sue for damages , y all can show
                                          Message 20 of 20 , May 30, 2008
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                                            I would make sure to have a good supply of waivers for the boneheads
                                            to sign, so that WHEN they are skewered and they try to sue
                                            for "damages", y'all can show the signed document to the judge and
                                            have the case dismissed. Since they don't want y'all to be concerned
                                            about their safety -- and they obviously ain't at all concerned about
                                            it, either -- there should be no problem getting them to sign the
                                            waiver. Once it is signed, forget about calling "hold".

                                            Or y'all could put up a VERY LARGE sign, one at EACH side of the
                                            range, stating that STEEL-TIPPED ARROWS are being launched and that
                                            they pass through the area AT THEIR OWN RISK. Anyone stupid enough to
                                            ignore the sign and cross an active archery range anyway deserves to
                                            skewered. "And this week's winner of the Darwin Award is...."

                                            Maybe even do both. That's my five cent's worth.

                                            --Artúr


                                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder
                                            Lutre <Merry@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I enjoy posting questions occasionally for academic purposes from
                                            time
                                            > to time and seeing how others perceive things and what judgments
                                            they
                                            > would make.
                                            >
                                            > Take a gander at these photos if you would:
                                            > http://photos.shireofstandingstones.org/main.php?g2_itemId=649
                                            >
                                            > We were setting up for our weekly shire archery practice at the
                                            range
                                            > maintained by the Columbia Area Archers and I believe the State
                                            Dept. of
                                            > Conservation, and City at the American Legion Hall this Tuesday,
                                            when to
                                            > our disbelief a gentleman in a Toyota Prius drove drove past the
                                            > chain-link fence and parked at the terminus end of the range. We
                                            were
                                            > surprised, especially as there are signs on the approach and at the
                                            ends
                                            > of the range warning people that it is a hazardous zone. I
                                            suppose we
                                            > should not have been however. Three weeks ago I had to call
                                            a 'Hold'
                                            > when three youths were running back and forth .... (snipped)
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