Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Researched or Apocryphal? Myth? Wife's Tale?

Expand Messages
  • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
    Ah.. But I have done this. And I m afraid it has never borne out (for me) the way you describe. For men and women both, it always has been a function of how
    Message 1 of 38 , May 11, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Ah.. But I have done this. And I'm afraid it has never borne out (for
      me) the way you describe. For men and women both, it always has been a
      function of how the bow is grasped (not just the elbow position). I can
      _make_ my joints look the same as they are demonstrated to me. I can
      also _make_ the demonstrator's joints look the same as my joints and
      bones look when I shoot. The opposite always feels 'strange' initially
      to myself and others, but with strength training and development of
      muscle memory, I've never worked with anyone who absolutely continues
      keep their joints, bones, etc configured so that they remain in the
      'danger zone'. The only exception to this rule is people who only shoot
      once in a blue moon and never practice in muscle memory or develop
      strength. I mean. I may be obtuse here, but on the whole the
      discussion here has convinced me that there is no gender dimorphism on
      an osteopathic level... of course, it might still be argued that I'm
      just hearing what I want to hear.

      I myself find that I will slap my arm when I'm fatigued and I can't
      muster the strength to practice good form. I right now have a big
      bruise that's finally fading from last week. I haven't done that in a
      long while and last week I did it three days in a row adding nice knots
      to the bruises that are finally now dissolving.



      Hon.Lady Arianna OSeaghdha wrote:
      > ---No, the joint is different. But it's easy to get around. It's just
      > a matter of rotating your elbow downward. Take a look at the next
      > woman you see, ask her to hold her arm out in a shooting position
      > without a bow, you'll see, Arianna SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com,
      > 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre <Merry@...> wrote:
      >
      >> Ah, you speak exactly to the (myth or truism, I guess that's what we're
      >> trying to determine) I've heard tell of by several people. The words
      >> I've heard are that the 'joint' or the 'bones' in that area are
      >> 'different' between men and women. This immediately struck me across
      >> the face being fantastic but I'm very willing to be educated if I'm
      >> wrong. Further I think that anyone who is being hurt, man or woman
      >> should wear a bracer just to keep them enjoying this wonderful
      >>
      > pastime.
      >
      >> In thinking of it and watching men and women shoot while on the line
      >> acting as marshal I've formed the sneaking suspicion that the joint and
      >> bones only 'appear' different because beginning archers, men and women
      >> and disappear more quickly in men because men develop muscle mass more
      >> quickly (and isn't it a particular kind of muscle? Skeletal as
      >>
      > opposed
      >
      >> to smooth muscle or something like that?). I've wondered if beginning
      >> archers don't tend to lock their wrist and elbows such that it's not
      >> taking muscle to hold the bow out in a drawn position (using weaker
      >> extensor muscles on that arm while working the naturally stronger
      >> contractor muscles on the other arm more) but rather locking their
      >>
      > bones
      >
      >> such that the pressure is transferred not onto the wrist joint and
      >> muscles but rather straight down the arm and into the shoulder. I've
      >> tried it myself and it does indeed make the wrist 'appear' funny,
      >>
      > almost
      >
      >> as if the bones were shaped differently. I've also noticed as I've
      >>
      > been
      >
      >> going every day to shoot 200 arrows that on the days I'm more fatigued
      >> that I'm striking my arm more (I have a lovely big bruise day after
      >>
      > day)
      >
      >> because when I'm holding my draw longer to concentrate on each point in
      >> my 'checklist' while trying to develop muscle memory, that I'm
      >>
      > unable to
      >
      >> use my muscles to hold things in position.
      >>
      >> Anyways. I'm really enjoying the discussion so far. I'm learning and
      >> getting the opinions of people who've been doing this for a long time.
      >>
      >> Hon.Lady Arianna OSeaghdha wrote:
      >>
      >>> -- Greetings,
      >>> Being a woman as well as an archer let me just say,when a woman
      >>> extends her arm you will see that the elbow joint is different than a
      >>> man's. The joint points in more of an upwardly direction than a man's.
      >>> While a woman doesn't need a bracer more than a man she does need to
      >>> take this difference into account and rotate her arm so the joint
      >>> isn't in the way.I learned this the hard way with many a severe bruise
      >>> along the inside of my arm. As soon as I learned to rotate my arm, the
      >>> bruising stopped. I hope this helps. Arianna- In
      >>> SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
      >>> <Merry@> wrote:
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> I've been hearing (and I may have even repeated it absent
      >>>>
      > mindedly) it
      >
      >>>> said all sorts of places recently that letting multiple archers
      >>>>
      > use a
      >
      >>>> single bow can be damaging to the bow. More specifically it runs
      >>>> something like this, "Everyone shoots differently and 'your bow
      >>>>
      > is used
      >
      >>>> to you' and someone else shooting in the manner which they shoot
      >>>>
      > could
      >
      >>>> damage your bow." I've heard this applied to all bows, even
      >>>>
      > factory
      >
      >>>> made fiberglass composite bows made by very popular manufacturers.
      >>>>
      >>>> I'd like to know if anyone has any concrete research and I mean
      >>>>
      > trials
      >
      >>>> with controlled circumstances that have been repeated by others with
      >>>> similar results, or if this is just something someone started
      >>>>
      > telling
      >
      >>>> people and it spread from person to person until nobody really
      >>>>
      > had any
      >
      >>>> idea if they were speaking truth or fantasy.
      >>>>
      >>>> My logical side is yelling at me and telling me that it's absolute
      >>>> bunk. My reasoning is as follows.
      >>>>
      >>>> 1. This research would be very expensive to do, and there is little
      >>>> demand for someone to do it and even less for someone to fund it.
      >>>>
      >>>> 2. This research would be _very_ difficult to quantify. For
      >>>>
      > longbows,
      >
      >>>> horsebows, flatbows, etc, these weapons are made in relatively small
      >>>> quantities under non-controlled conditions from organic
      >>>>
      > materials that
      >
      >>>> vary greatly. How exactly would you go about having even 5
      >>>>
      > 'identical'
      >
      >>>> or 'reasonably identical' bows 'built' using natural materials to
      >>>> satisfy research requirements.
      >>>>
      >>>> 3. I could see this whole premise as being remotely plausible for
      >>>> certain types of bow that are already considered temperamental which
      >>>> already require great care with regards to temperature, humidity,
      >>>>
      > dirty
      >
      >>>> looks, treatment, etc. But as I say above, I've heard it
      >>>>
      > applied to
      >
      >>>> Ben Pearsons, Bears, Martins, and Hoyts. This makes me all the
      >>>>
      > more
      >
      >>>> suspicious that someone said it and someone repeated it and perhaps
      >>>> someone was talking about a certain bow type, and the specifics were
      >>>> lost with the retelling.
      >>>>
      >>>> 4. Different shooters. I tell you what. I am a different
      >>>>
      > shooter
      >
      >>>> with vastly different 'styles' and 'draw's and other such specifics
      >>>> depending on how long it's been since I practiced recently, how much
      >>>> sleep I've had (more accurately, how utterly fatigued I am), etc. I
      >>>> also experiment constantly. It's a trait of a horribly terrible
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>> archer
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> like myself to look for 'answers' to explain why I stink by
      >>>>
      > trying all
      >
      >>>> sorts of techniques and methods in the hope that I can 'discover'
      >>>>
      > that
      >
      >>>> secret thing that's keeping me from being a 'good archer'.... that
      >>>> secret thing is that I just stink :) (I sure enjoy it however,
      >>>>
      > so I'm
      >
      >>>> going to keep doing it.)
      >>>>
      >>>> 5. I'm certain that people look for all sorts of excuses for why
      >>>>
      > their
      >
      >>>> equipment fails other than manufacturing faults, or
      >>>>
      > mistreatments, or
      >
      >>>> what insurance companies call 'acts of God'. "It must be because I
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>> let
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> Joe Newbie use my bow that it failed." Perhaps he's overlooking
      >>>>
      > the
      >
      >>>> fact that Joe Newbie ran over the limb with his pickup while his
      >>>>
      > back
      >
      >>>> was turned or dry fired it, or that he himself has been using the
      >>>> step-through method to string his bow rather than using a
      >>>>
      > stringer or a
      >
      >>>> method less likely to encourage limb twist, or that perhaps he
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>> shouldn't
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> have stored it in the back window of his truck in the sun during
      >>>>
      > summer
      >
      >>>> (while being parked straddling the equator).
      >>>>
      >>>> 6. I could certainly believe that human nature would cause
      >>>>
      > someone to
      >
      >>>> dissemble when asked if someone could try or borrow their bow
      >>>>
      > with some
      >
      >>>> nonsense made-up reason for refusing to let someone 'touch their
      >>>> baby'... Especially when you consider that a neophyte archer cannot
      >>>> understand the delicacies of and special care certain weapons might
      >>>> require (delicate horn tips, not dry-firing, not 'leaning' on the
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>> bow or
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> grinding the end in the dirt, not stringing it with the step-through
      >>>> method they learned in high school. Many people have a basic
      >>>> introduction to archery that consists of bows made of a solid
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>> fiberglass
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> stick in some garish color with a nylon string with loops secured by
      >>>> copper pinch cable clamps. You can throw these weapons, or hit your
      >>>> friend over the head with them [gee, some friend] and they will
      >>>>
      > still
      >
      >>>> pretty much preform as they did when you pulled the cellophane
      >>>>
      > wrapping
      >
      >>>> off.)
      >>>>
      >>>> So... Tell me if these suspicions are spurious or just plain
      >>>>
      > stupid...
      >
      >>>> But I'm not going to buy it unless presented with some sort of
      >>>>
      > concrete
      >
      >>>> evidence. Research, or even some sort of reasonable evidence over
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>> time
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> (as opposed to hearing it said from someone, somewhere,
      >>>>
      > sometime). I
      >
      >>>> think the next time I hear some older archer tell a new archer this
      >>>> little nugget of truth, especially if it is in the context of
      >>>>
      > advising
      >
      >>>> them not to let others use their equipment, I may just challenge
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>> them to
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> back up the statement. I've got no problem with people not wanting
      >>>> others to use their equipment. It's fully justified, and I think
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>> it's a
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> big request to be made of any archer, though I expect that that
      >>>> knowledge only comes from being an archer for a long time... i.e.,
      >>>> someone just starting out might not intuit what a big request it
      >>>>
      > is if
      >
      >>>> they ask an archer to borrow or try out something that the
      >>>>
      > protect and
      >
      >>>> care as if it were their only child.
      >>>>
      >>>> I have another thing I've heard that I really wonder if it is a
      >>>>
      > 'myth'
      >
      >>>> or fact regarding women having an anatomical dimorphism that makes
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>> their
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> need for a bracer/arm guard greater than that of a man (and I'm
      >>>>
      > talking
      >
      >>>> about an arm guard here, not protection for other locations). I
      >>>>
      > don't
      >
      >>>> buy it, but I'm a little hesitant to open that can of worms.
      >>>>
      > We'll see
      >
      >>>> how this discussion goes.
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> --
      >>>>
      >>>> // Merry
      >>>>
      >>>> ----------
      >>>> 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
      >>>> Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
      >>>> Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
      >>>> http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
      >>>> ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....
      >>>>
      >>>> 'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
      >>>> pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>
      >>> ------------------------------------
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >> --
      >>
      >> // Merry
      >>
      >> ----------
      >> 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
      >> Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
      >> Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
      >> http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
      >> ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....
      >>
      >> 'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
      >> pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      >

      --

      // Merry

      ----------
      'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
      Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
      Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
      http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
      ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

      'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
      pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
      Ah.. But I have done this. And I m afraid it has never borne out (for me) the way you describe. For men and women both, it always has been a function of how
      Message 38 of 38 , May 11, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Ah.. But I have done this. And I'm afraid it has never borne out (for
        me) the way you describe. For men and women both, it always has been a
        function of how the bow is grasped (not just the elbow position). I can
        _make_ my joints look the same as they are demonstrated to me. I can
        also _make_ the demonstrator's joints look the same as my joints and
        bones look when I shoot. The opposite always feels 'strange' initially
        to myself and others, but with strength training and development of
        muscle memory, I've never worked with anyone who absolutely continues
        keep their joints, bones, etc configured so that they remain in the
        'danger zone'. The only exception to this rule is people who only shoot
        once in a blue moon and never practice in muscle memory or develop
        strength. I mean. I may be obtuse here, but on the whole the
        discussion here has convinced me that there is no gender dimorphism on
        an osteopathic level... of course, it might still be argued that I'm
        just hearing what I want to hear.

        I myself find that I will slap my arm when I'm fatigued and I can't
        muster the strength to practice good form. I right now have a big
        bruise that's finally fading from last week. I haven't done that in a
        long while and last week I did it three days in a row adding nice knots
        to the bruises that are finally now dissolving.



        Hon.Lady Arianna OSeaghdha wrote:
        > ---No, the joint is different. But it's easy to get around. It's just
        > a matter of rotating your elbow downward. Take a look at the next
        > woman you see, ask her to hold her arm out in a shooting position
        > without a bow, you'll see, Arianna SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com,
        > 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre <Merry@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Ah, you speak exactly to the (myth or truism, I guess that's what we're
        >> trying to determine) I've heard tell of by several people. The words
        >> I've heard are that the 'joint' or the 'bones' in that area are
        >> 'different' between men and women. This immediately struck me across
        >> the face being fantastic but I'm very willing to be educated if I'm
        >> wrong. Further I think that anyone who is being hurt, man or woman
        >> should wear a bracer just to keep them enjoying this wonderful
        >>
        > pastime.
        >
        >> In thinking of it and watching men and women shoot while on the line
        >> acting as marshal I've formed the sneaking suspicion that the joint and
        >> bones only 'appear' different because beginning archers, men and women
        >> and disappear more quickly in men because men develop muscle mass more
        >> quickly (and isn't it a particular kind of muscle? Skeletal as
        >>
        > opposed
        >
        >> to smooth muscle or something like that?). I've wondered if beginning
        >> archers don't tend to lock their wrist and elbows such that it's not
        >> taking muscle to hold the bow out in a drawn position (using weaker
        >> extensor muscles on that arm while working the naturally stronger
        >> contractor muscles on the other arm more) but rather locking their
        >>
        > bones
        >
        >> such that the pressure is transferred not onto the wrist joint and
        >> muscles but rather straight down the arm and into the shoulder. I've
        >> tried it myself and it does indeed make the wrist 'appear' funny,
        >>
        > almost
        >
        >> as if the bones were shaped differently. I've also noticed as I've
        >>
        > been
        >
        >> going every day to shoot 200 arrows that on the days I'm more fatigued
        >> that I'm striking my arm more (I have a lovely big bruise day after
        >>
        > day)
        >
        >> because when I'm holding my draw longer to concentrate on each point in
        >> my 'checklist' while trying to develop muscle memory, that I'm
        >>
        > unable to
        >
        >> use my muscles to hold things in position.
        >>
        >> Anyways. I'm really enjoying the discussion so far. I'm learning and
        >> getting the opinions of people who've been doing this for a long time.
        >>
        >> Hon.Lady Arianna OSeaghdha wrote:
        >>
        >>> -- Greetings,
        >>> Being a woman as well as an archer let me just say,when a woman
        >>> extends her arm you will see that the elbow joint is different than a
        >>> man's. The joint points in more of an upwardly direction than a man's.
        >>> While a woman doesn't need a bracer more than a man she does need to
        >>> take this difference into account and rotate her arm so the joint
        >>> isn't in the way.I learned this the hard way with many a severe bruise
        >>> along the inside of my arm. As soon as I learned to rotate my arm, the
        >>> bruising stopped. I hope this helps. Arianna- In
        >>> SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
        >>> <Merry@> wrote:
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> I've been hearing (and I may have even repeated it absent
        >>>>
        > mindedly) it
        >
        >>>> said all sorts of places recently that letting multiple archers
        >>>>
        > use a
        >
        >>>> single bow can be damaging to the bow. More specifically it runs
        >>>> something like this, "Everyone shoots differently and 'your bow
        >>>>
        > is used
        >
        >>>> to you' and someone else shooting in the manner which they shoot
        >>>>
        > could
        >
        >>>> damage your bow." I've heard this applied to all bows, even
        >>>>
        > factory
        >
        >>>> made fiberglass composite bows made by very popular manufacturers.
        >>>>
        >>>> I'd like to know if anyone has any concrete research and I mean
        >>>>
        > trials
        >
        >>>> with controlled circumstances that have been repeated by others with
        >>>> similar results, or if this is just something someone started
        >>>>
        > telling
        >
        >>>> people and it spread from person to person until nobody really
        >>>>
        > had any
        >
        >>>> idea if they were speaking truth or fantasy.
        >>>>
        >>>> My logical side is yelling at me and telling me that it's absolute
        >>>> bunk. My reasoning is as follows.
        >>>>
        >>>> 1. This research would be very expensive to do, and there is little
        >>>> demand for someone to do it and even less for someone to fund it.
        >>>>
        >>>> 2. This research would be _very_ difficult to quantify. For
        >>>>
        > longbows,
        >
        >>>> horsebows, flatbows, etc, these weapons are made in relatively small
        >>>> quantities under non-controlled conditions from organic
        >>>>
        > materials that
        >
        >>>> vary greatly. How exactly would you go about having even 5
        >>>>
        > 'identical'
        >
        >>>> or 'reasonably identical' bows 'built' using natural materials to
        >>>> satisfy research requirements.
        >>>>
        >>>> 3. I could see this whole premise as being remotely plausible for
        >>>> certain types of bow that are already considered temperamental which
        >>>> already require great care with regards to temperature, humidity,
        >>>>
        > dirty
        >
        >>>> looks, treatment, etc. But as I say above, I've heard it
        >>>>
        > applied to
        >
        >>>> Ben Pearsons, Bears, Martins, and Hoyts. This makes me all the
        >>>>
        > more
        >
        >>>> suspicious that someone said it and someone repeated it and perhaps
        >>>> someone was talking about a certain bow type, and the specifics were
        >>>> lost with the retelling.
        >>>>
        >>>> 4. Different shooters. I tell you what. I am a different
        >>>>
        > shooter
        >
        >>>> with vastly different 'styles' and 'draw's and other such specifics
        >>>> depending on how long it's been since I practiced recently, how much
        >>>> sleep I've had (more accurately, how utterly fatigued I am), etc. I
        >>>> also experiment constantly. It's a trait of a horribly terrible
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>> archer
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> like myself to look for 'answers' to explain why I stink by
        >>>>
        > trying all
        >
        >>>> sorts of techniques and methods in the hope that I can 'discover'
        >>>>
        > that
        >
        >>>> secret thing that's keeping me from being a 'good archer'.... that
        >>>> secret thing is that I just stink :) (I sure enjoy it however,
        >>>>
        > so I'm
        >
        >>>> going to keep doing it.)
        >>>>
        >>>> 5. I'm certain that people look for all sorts of excuses for why
        >>>>
        > their
        >
        >>>> equipment fails other than manufacturing faults, or
        >>>>
        > mistreatments, or
        >
        >>>> what insurance companies call 'acts of God'. "It must be because I
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>> let
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> Joe Newbie use my bow that it failed." Perhaps he's overlooking
        >>>>
        > the
        >
        >>>> fact that Joe Newbie ran over the limb with his pickup while his
        >>>>
        > back
        >
        >>>> was turned or dry fired it, or that he himself has been using the
        >>>> step-through method to string his bow rather than using a
        >>>>
        > stringer or a
        >
        >>>> method less likely to encourage limb twist, or that perhaps he
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>> shouldn't
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> have stored it in the back window of his truck in the sun during
        >>>>
        > summer
        >
        >>>> (while being parked straddling the equator).
        >>>>
        >>>> 6. I could certainly believe that human nature would cause
        >>>>
        > someone to
        >
        >>>> dissemble when asked if someone could try or borrow their bow
        >>>>
        > with some
        >
        >>>> nonsense made-up reason for refusing to let someone 'touch their
        >>>> baby'... Especially when you consider that a neophyte archer cannot
        >>>> understand the delicacies of and special care certain weapons might
        >>>> require (delicate horn tips, not dry-firing, not 'leaning' on the
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>> bow or
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> grinding the end in the dirt, not stringing it with the step-through
        >>>> method they learned in high school. Many people have a basic
        >>>> introduction to archery that consists of bows made of a solid
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>> fiberglass
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> stick in some garish color with a nylon string with loops secured by
        >>>> copper pinch cable clamps. You can throw these weapons, or hit your
        >>>> friend over the head with them [gee, some friend] and they will
        >>>>
        > still
        >
        >>>> pretty much preform as they did when you pulled the cellophane
        >>>>
        > wrapping
        >
        >>>> off.)
        >>>>
        >>>> So... Tell me if these suspicions are spurious or just plain
        >>>>
        > stupid...
        >
        >>>> But I'm not going to buy it unless presented with some sort of
        >>>>
        > concrete
        >
        >>>> evidence. Research, or even some sort of reasonable evidence over
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>> time
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> (as opposed to hearing it said from someone, somewhere,
        >>>>
        > sometime). I
        >
        >>>> think the next time I hear some older archer tell a new archer this
        >>>> little nugget of truth, especially if it is in the context of
        >>>>
        > advising
        >
        >>>> them not to let others use their equipment, I may just challenge
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>> them to
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> back up the statement. I've got no problem with people not wanting
        >>>> others to use their equipment. It's fully justified, and I think
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>> it's a
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> big request to be made of any archer, though I expect that that
        >>>> knowledge only comes from being an archer for a long time... i.e.,
        >>>> someone just starting out might not intuit what a big request it
        >>>>
        > is if
        >
        >>>> they ask an archer to borrow or try out something that the
        >>>>
        > protect and
        >
        >>>> care as if it were their only child.
        >>>>
        >>>> I have another thing I've heard that I really wonder if it is a
        >>>>
        > 'myth'
        >
        >>>> or fact regarding women having an anatomical dimorphism that makes
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>> their
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> need for a bracer/arm guard greater than that of a man (and I'm
        >>>>
        > talking
        >
        >>>> about an arm guard here, not protection for other locations). I
        >>>>
        > don't
        >
        >>>> buy it, but I'm a little hesitant to open that can of worms.
        >>>>
        > We'll see
        >
        >>>> how this discussion goes.
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> --
        >>>>
        >>>> // Merry
        >>>>
        >>>> ----------
        >>>> 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
        >>>> Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
        >>>> Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
        >>>> http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
        >>>> ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....
        >>>>
        >>>> 'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
        >>>> pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>> ------------------------------------
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >> --
        >>
        >> // Merry
        >>
        >> ----------
        >> 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
        >> Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
        >> Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
        >> http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
        >> ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....
        >>
        >> 'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
        >> pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >

        --

        // Merry

        ----------
        'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
        Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
        Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
        http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
        ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

        'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
        pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.