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RE: [SCA-Archery] Re: Judging distance

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  • Oakes, George
    Artur, Ah, I do respect your reply, and I thank you for it was well. This is what makes this group so nice, and that I like to read everyones suggestions,
    Message 1 of 77 , Apr 1 4:40 AM
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      Artur,

      Ah, I do respect your reply, and I thank you for it was well. This is what makes this group so nice, and that I like to read everyones suggestions, comments, critisizms, etc....

      I shoot a bamboo backed longbow, I use plain wood stained arrows with natural colored fletchings. For me I try to make my persona as acurate as my money, and current technology will allow while remaining safe for me and others arround me. I do not enforce this on others. I follow our kingdom rules when it comes to archery. I am also a Range Officer at a Gun club, so my very first thoughts are of safety, and the people around us.

      Our kingdom rules do say that the use of modern recurves are allowed, they are not left out of the rules. Plastic nocks are allowed, wood arrows, and feathers only. As far as plastic goes, if it helps keep the sport safe then I will allow it. Take nocks for instance, I feel more comfortable about allowing the use of a plastic nock, than a arrow with a selfnock. Wood does splinter, I do not know the fletcher that made the arrow and if it was made by the archer, then I probably dont know thier skill level either. I will not disallow a selfnock but I will inspect them a tad more closer than an arrow with a plastic nock. Same goes with modern recurves while fiberglass is not period, I feel much more comfortable allowing a moder fiberglass backed.reinforced recurve to shoot on the line than a linen backed selfbow. I had a linen backed selfbow made by a Bowyer who I feel their skills were questionable. I did not like that bow, and kick my self for even using it. Sure enough just before a competition the bow failed. Lucky for me, I felt it give just as I was drawing it, and stopped, to inspect it. Had I ignored that gentle thump I might have harmed myself or others around me. So I give lots of latitude when comes to safety and the more period an item is the more I inspect it for safety.
      Our rules also state that NO compound bows or mechanical release devices be used. No electronic or sighting equipment is allowed, except marks may be drawn on the bow limbs or crossbow to use as aiming points. As our rules state, no electronic devices, I would intepret that to be an electronic range finder. I am not familiar with all the range finders, but their use would most likely be not allowed. If I question an archer about his equipment or bow, and it is not stated clearly in the rules, then I use a majority vote of other archers present to help me make decisions. this is providing that it would be safe to use of course. If the other archers do not have a problem with the archers use of said device than I allow the use until either it is cleary allowed or disallowed per our kingdom rules.

      to the statement Range-finders would not have been available to an archer in period, I had made an assumption, which while not expressly written, that a ranger finder is an electronic device, and electronics would not be period. That I have no documentation proving this point one way or the other, is the typical SCA battle about if there is not documentation then it could have been, or the opposite, it could not have been possible. So as the SCA stance has always been to err on the side of caution, if its not documented, then it probably wasnt possible. This is not to say that is could not have been possible its just that the majority of reasoning is thats its probably not period.

      So with that said, Safety is first, fair play is second, and maintaining "The Dream" a close third.

      Thanks for your comments
      Gavin
      mka George



      ________________________________

      From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of arturdubh
      Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:09 AM
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Judging distance



      George, you know that I respect you as an archer and all (at least I
      hope that you know this), and I know I most likely won't be endearing
      myself to anybody (well, hardly anybody) with this, yet it needs to
      be said. So, here goes...

      This has been a discussion on range-finding implements, both modern
      and not-so-modern (optical or otherwise). Just replace "range-
      finders" with "modern recurve bows/longbows".... Just remember, even
      though SCA rules do not expressly forbid the use of modern-design
      Traditional bows (especially take-down bows), they do not "add to the
      realism involved with researching or reenacting our period" -- since
      Dacron, fibre-glass and "action wood" were not known in the Middle
      Ages.

      I personally do not like to see anyone using brightly-painted shafts
      while portraying a Norse persona, since it seems such a shaft would
      only serve to alert the "victim" (target) of its imminent fate, yet I
      would still allow the use of such brightly-painted shafts if I were
      the line-Marshal; some folks simply like their shafts to be
      personalized in such a way which is so very non-period in nature.
      What rankles is the blanket exclusion of something simply because the
      person "in charge" doesn't like it -- not because the rules forbid
      its use.

      Now, if the shoot were to have rules expressly forbidding the use of
      (modern) range-finding devices, including anything incorporating a
      magnifying lens of any kind (excluding, of course, prescription eye-
      glasses) and/or ranging marks on the bow....

      Also, the statement that range-finders "would not have been available
      to archer in period": Just what documentation is there to show that
      they were not available to archers "in period"? This question is not
      lightly asked, nor is it asked sarcastically; there are people who
      really want to know.

      Just my fourteen cents (adjusted for inflation).

      --Artúr

      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com> , "Oakes, George" <goakes@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > As a Ranger at Large in Trimaris,
      >
      > I would not allow such a device as it has no reference or would not
      have
      > been available to archer in period. While the rules do not expressly
      > forbid it, I still would not allow it as it does not add to the
      realism
      > involved with researching or reenacting our period.
      >
      > just my two cents, other rangers may agree or disagree, and that is
      > there place to do so.
      >
      > YIS
      > Ranger Gavin
      >
      > ________________________________
      >
      > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:SCA-
      Archery@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Archery%40yahoogroups.com> ]
      > On Behalf Of Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
      > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:50 PM
      > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Judging distance
      >
      >
      >
      > Any opinions on the use of optical range finders or other less
      modern
      > equipment to judge unknown distances at SCA competitions? Their use
      > is not expressly forbidden by SCA rules.
      >
      > Jon
      >
      > Yep, strong opinion:
      >
      > NO, not allowed.
      >
      > I don't even like the marking of bow limbs. :|
      >
      > Godwin
      >
      > ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net <http://www.cableone.net>
      > <http://www.cableone.net <http://www.cableone.net> >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Carolus
      Yes, a marshal or event steward can ban sights or anything else for a particular event or shoot even if otherwise allowed by society and kingdom rules. Just
      Message 77 of 77 , Apr 3 9:01 PM
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        Yes, a marshal or event steward can ban sights or anything else for a
        particular event or shoot even if otherwise allowed by society and
        kingdom rules. Just as a tourney may be made great weapons only,
        hits above the waist only, or any other special rule. I have seen
        and run events that were "period" equipment only - bring your
        fiberglas and be a spectator.
        Carolus

        At 08:07 AM 4/3/2008, you wrote:

        > > First, I don't remember if "electronic range finders" were
        > > specified by yourself or not (I don't think they were), but I do
        > > know that I was refering to "generic range finders"
        > > anything/everything which could possibly be used as a range finder -
        > > including bows). Since a bow can be used as a range finder (limb
        > > tips have a known length/width/etc, as do risers), I must assume
        > > that any edict banning "range finders" from use in unknown distance
        > > shoots includes bows...
        >
        >The first to mention electronic range finders was Sir Jon.
        >
        >Here is the question I pose. If any kind of "range finders" are
        >going to be banned, what are you going to do with those marshals who
        >help setup or those already familar with the range?
        >
        >I know of one kingdom archery championship where the actual shoot
        >being done was kept quiet from the archers and the marshal running
        >the shoot won the event. Kind of unfair if you ask me. That's
        >definitely more unfair that somebody any kind of period tool to
        >estimate distance.
        >
        > > That is why I feel that the use of **some form** of non-modern
        > > range finding device should be allowed, unless it is SPECIFICALLY
        > > discouraged for a particular competition.
        >
        >But how are you going to do that? Crossbows are permitted to have
        >rear sights and with a simple peep site compared to a horizon one can
        >determine distance. You mean a marshal can ban sights when they are
        >permitted under SCA and a kingdom rules?
        >
        >If something was done in period (provided it's safe for the event)
        >then it should be permitted. No banning of period sighting
        >techniques used even if they were frowned upon by Roger Ascham. No
        >banning of period sights.
        >
        >There are plenty of these types of rules I've seen that are rather
        >bogus. If I want to come to an event with 20 different types of
        >arrows and use the type of arrow which best suits a type of shoot
        >that should be allowed. I certainly don't want to use my IKAC bolts
        >to shoot a clout or anything that will damage my bolts. If one
        >wanted to change from one type of a bow to another during a
        >competition that should also be allow as it takes more effort to
        >master two types of weaponry that one.
        >
        >Comes down to what are people afraid of?
        >
        >Michael


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