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About Armguards and such

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  • Frederick Fenters
    I have been following the commentary on the list and waiting to see if I needed to put in my 2 cents. There is nothing wrong with wearing an armguard. It is
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 8, 2008
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      I have been following the commentary on the list and waiting to see if I
      needed to put in my 2 cents. There is nothing wrong with wearing an
      armguard. It is better to learn to position yourself so that the string
      does not slap you, but sometimes that is not easily possible.



      I taught a lady several years ago who could not hold the bow out at arms
      length without locking her elbow. This resulted in her getting those
      amazing bruises, even when we had her try wearing a heavy sweatshirt. Her
      elbow, even when I had her try to keep it perpendicular to the round,
      hyperextended and put her arm in harm's way. I eventually made her an
      armguard that ran from her wrist to armpit. Essentially made a leather
      splint that locked her arm in the position she needed. It was a little
      uncomfortable for her at first, but when we finished fitting and trimming
      it, she was able to shoot without hurting herself.



      As to the other "problem" you mentioned, make sure that the string hits you
      on the outside of the anatomy and does not land between the lovely ladies.
      The other option is to add a Frisbee to your archery gear and place it
      between your nether garment (note how carefully p.c. I am trying to be and
      ignore that red glow in the sky over Michigan) and your anatomy. The
      Frisbee will serve a similar function to the armguard and the placement
      means no taping or other annoyances are needed. I assume that you do not
      wish to use the Amazon solution. Self mutilation is such a drag!



      I hope this helps some, rather than further muddying the waters,



      Padraig MacRaighne



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dan Scheid
      I have to agree with Padraig here, and I’m going to be blunt we are adults after all... Try pulling “to” your breast and lower your anchor point to your
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 8, 2008
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        I have to agree with Padraig here, and I�m going to be blunt we are adults
        after all... Try pulling �to� your breast and lower your anchor point to
        your chin.

        You may need a stronger bow to have enough kick for the shorter draw. The
        American Indians drew a very short draw. (Arm to belly) bow held flat,

        and hunted and feed and protected themselves.

        Damales

        /

        I have been following the commentary on the list and waiting to see if I
        needed to put in my 2 cents. There is nothing wrong with wearing an
        armguard. It is better to learn to position yourself so that the string
        does not slap you, but sometimes that is not easily possible.

        I taught a lady several years ago who could not hold the bow out at arms
        length without locking her elbow. This resulted in her getting those
        amazing bruises, even when we had her try wearing a heavy sweatshirt. Her
        elbow, even when I had her try to keep it perpendicular to the round,
        hyperextended and put her arm in harm's way. I eventually made her an
        armguard that ran from her wrist to armpit. Essentially made a leather
        splint that locked her arm in the position she needed. It was a little
        uncomfortable for her at first, but when we finished fitting and trimming
        it, she was able to shoot without hurting herself.

        As to the other "problem" you mentioned, make sure that the string hits you
        on the outside of the anatomy and does not land between the lovely ladies.
        The other option is to add a Frisbee to your archery gear and place it
        between your nether garment (note how carefully p.c. I am trying to be and
        ignore that red glow in the sky over Michigan) and your anatomy. The
        Frisbee will serve a similar function to the armguard and the placement
        means no taping or other annoyances are needed. I assume that you do not
        wish to use the Amazon solution. Self mutilation is such a drag!

        I hope this helps some, rather than further muddying the waters,

        Padraig MacRaighne

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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      • Lady Teresa of Blackwell Hall
        Thank you for your E-mail, these sound like good solutions. I was surprised that I had so much personal pain and suffering and yet still managed to put the
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 8, 2008
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          Thank you for your E-mail, these sound like good solutions.

          I was surprised that I had so much personal pain and suffering
          and yet still managed to put the arrows where they needed to go.
          I enjoyed being able to hit the target, and my friends enjoyed
          watching me do the ouwie dance. So next time I will be armed
          with wrist brace, arm guard, frisbee and corset. Just a few
          more layers and I will be ready for combat archery!

          Thank you again.

          YIS Lady Teresa
        • Michael Grossberg
          ... eastern(woodland) indians were excellant stalkers, being able to get very close to their prey before shooting. The plains indians did most of their hunting
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 8, 2008
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            > [Original Message]
            > From: Dan Scheid <damales@...>
            > To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: 3/8/2008 6:48:56 PM
            > Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] About Armguards and such
            >
            >
            >
            > I have to agree with Padraig here, and I�m going to be blunt we are adults
            > after all... Try pulling �to� your breast and lower your anchor point to
            > your chin.
            >
            > You may need a stronger bow to have enough kick for the shorter draw. The
            > American Indians drew a very short draw. (Arm to belly) bow held flat,
            >
            > and hunted and feed and protected themselves.
            >
            > Damales
            >
            > --
            > There is a certain error in the citing of Native American archery. The
            eastern(woodland)
            indians were excellant stalkers, being able to get very close to their prey
            before shooting.
            The plains indians did most of their hunting from horseback, as well as
            being able to sneak
            up on their targets. Both did their shooting from fairly close range. The
            incredibly long-range
            shots that the indians always seem to be taking at the horse soldiers and
            cowboys is largely a
            figment of Hollywood's imagination. Also, as soon as they could the
            indians went to firearms;
            much more effective.
            Gardr Gunnarsson
          • Dan Scheid
            I said nothing about long range shots. I said that using a short draw worked for them. And could work for her. As for going to firearms . didn t we all.
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 8, 2008
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              I said nothing about long range shots. I said that using a short draw worked
              for them. And could work for her. As for going to firearms . didn't we all.
              Damales


              > [Original Message]
              > From: Dan Scheid <damales@...>
              > To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: 3/8/2008 6:48:56 PM
              > Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] About Armguards and such
              >
              >
              >
              > I have to agree with Padraig here, and Im going to be blunt we are adults
              > after all... Try pulling to your breast and lower your anchor point to
              > your chin.
              >
              > You may need a stronger bow to have enough kick for the shorter draw. The
              > American Indians drew a very short draw. (Arm to belly) bow held flat,
              >
              > and hunted and feed and protected themselves.
              >
              > Damales
              >
              > --
              > There is a certain error in the citing of Native American archery. The
              eastern(woodland)
              indians were excellant stalkers, being able to get very close to their prey
              before shooting.
              The plains indians did most of their hunting from horseback, as well as
              being able to sneak
              up on their targets. Both did their shooting from fairly close range. The
              incredibly long-range
              shots that the indians always seem to be taking at the horse soldiers and
              cowboys is largely a
              figment of Hollywood's imagination. Also, as soon as they could the
              indians went to firearms;
              much more effective.
              Gardr Gunnarsson



              --
              [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]

              Yahoo! Groups Links




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            • Nest verch Tangwistel
              When I have a new woman shooting I always tell them to pull the string to the side of the breast closest to the bow, not across the front. Unless you have a
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 9, 2008
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                When I have a new woman shooting I always tell them to pull the string to the side of the breast closest to the bow, not across the front. Unless you have a really long bow the angle between the two halves of the string (above and below the arrow nock) should be small enough that the string will only touch the breast lightly. It is also important to make sure the bow arm shoulder is not being pulled way back. that tends to be a mstake new people make because they are afraid of letting the string get that close to your bow arm, but then it can reach across the front of the chest.

                I hope I am making myself clear. It is a little hard to explain online.

                Nest

                Lady Teresa of Blackwell Hall <eyesofblue5_2@...> wrote:
                Thank you for your E-mail, these sound like good solutions.

                I was surprised that I had so much personal pain and suffering
                and yet still managed to put the arrows where they needed to go.
                I enjoyed being able to hit the target, and my friends enjoyed
                watching me do the ouwie dance. So next time I will be armed
                with wrist brace, arm guard, frisbee and corset. Just a few
                more layers and I will be ready for combat archery!

                Thank you again.

                YIS Lady Teresa






                ---------------------------------
                Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • blkknighti@aol.com
                This is how Lenny Cardinale taught women to shoot. My wife was under his tutelage for some time and I was privy to much of his wisdom. It works well for
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 9, 2008
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                  This is how Lenny Cardinale taught women to shoot. My wife was under his
                  tutelage for some time and I was privy to much of his wisdom. It works well for
                  anyone with more than small breasts. He ventured to say that when done
                  properly it may even help stabilize the archers overall set when at full draw or the
                  string at release. This came from watching slo-mo video of the process. There
                  really shouldn't be any breast armor because if the string is hitting the
                  breast as it passes it also will effect the strings path and adversly effect the
                  arrow flight. I have seen first hand the damage to a nipple that made even me
                  wince. ( I know your all smiling.... it was on a very overweight shirtless
                  male) I would advise do NOT draw the string over your breast if they are ample and
                  it simply isn't nescessary or wise.

                  Another period source for the use of bracer (armguard) and three fingered
                  "shooting" glove on the draw hand is the illumination in the "History of Tarquin"
                  (15th century) found in the Zamora Cathedral Treasury in Spain.

                  Richard

                  In a message dated 3/9/08 5:38:19 PM, eastarch@... writes:


                  > When I have a new woman shooting I always tell them to pull the string to
                  > the side of the breast closest to the bow, not across the front. Unless you
                  > have a really long bow the angle between the two halves of the string (above
                  > and below the arrow nock) should be small enough that the string will only
                  > touch the breast lightly. It is also important to make sure the bow arm shoulder
                  > is not being pulled way back. that tends to be a mstake new people make
                  > because they are afraid of letting the string get that close to your bow arm, but
                  > then it can reach across the front of the chest.
                  >   
                  >   I hope I am making myself clear. It is a little hard to explain online.
                  >   
                  >   Nest
                  >




                  **************
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                • logantheboweyder
                  The Teton (Lakota) Sioux first got introduced to horses around 1720. Assigning them any profeciency and tradition in horseback archery hunting might be more
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 10, 2008
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                    The Teton (Lakota) Sioux first got introduced to horses around 1720.
                    Assigning them any profeciency and tradition in horseback archery
                    hunting might be more attributable to hollywood, wishful thinking, or
                    historical revisionism, rather than having a firm basis in fact.
                    Certainly they did not have horseback archery in period times, as the
                    horse had been extinct in North America until reintroduction by the
                    conquistadores. Louis & Clark wrote that most of the native Americans
                    that they came across were completely unfamiliar with the horse. From
                    the time that the horse was introduced to the time that the firearm
                    was introduced is such a short interval that, at best, only a handful
                    of generations even had an opportunity to do it.

                    Logan

                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Grossberg" <geejayem@...>
                    wrote:

                    > The plains indians did most of their hunting from horseback, as well
                    as being able to sneak up on their targets.

                    > Gardr Gunnarsson
                    >
                  • Michael Grossberg
                    ... From: logantheboweyder To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: 3/10/2008 10:01:56 AM Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: About Armguards and such The Teton (Lakota)
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 10, 2008
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: logantheboweyder
                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: 3/10/2008 10:01:56 AM
                      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: About Armguards and such


                      The Teton (Lakota) Sioux first got introduced to horses around 1720.
                      Assigning them any profeciency and tradition in horseback archery
                      hunting might be more attributable to hollywood, wishful thinking, or
                      historical revisionism, rather than having a firm basis in fact.
                      Certainly they did not have horseback archery in period times, as the
                      horse had been extinct in North America until reintroduction by the
                      conquistadores. Louis & Clark wrote that most of the native Americans
                      that they came across were completely unfamiliar with the horse. From
                      the time that the horse was introduced to the time that the firearm
                      was introduced is such a short interval that, at best, only a handful
                      of generations even had an opportunity to do it.

                      Logan

                      True, before the Spanish arrived, the Native Americans made do with dogs
                      as beasts of burden, and didn't ride *them*. However, they were still
                      champions
                      at sneaking up on their prey. Indian bows were, compared to, say, English
                      longbows,
                      fairly weak. They didn't have the need for weapons that could hurl an
                      arrow long distances.
                    • Brad Boda d'Aylward
                      This sounds like an instance of Bow Creep or drawing the string across in front of the body with the bow arm angled from the sholder. Getting a *straight*
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 10, 2008
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                        This sounds like an instance of 'Bow Creep' or drawing the string across in
                        front of the body with the bow arm angled from the sholder. Getting a
                        *straight* line from the bow hand through the left shoulder to the right
                        shoulder (right handed archer) and drawing straight into the side of the
                        breast allows the string to go straight away from the breast. The head
                        should not be bent over into the string but held upright and draw the string
                        to the anchor point. To get the 'arch' to the back and that *straight* line
                        I tell archers to 'pinch a quarter between their shoulder blades'. I've seen
                        rather well endowed women shoot comfortably this way and avoid the 'titty
                        whack' <G>.

                        Brad


                        Subject: [SCA-Archery] About Armguards and such


                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > As to the other "problem" you mentioned, make sure that the string hits
                        you
                        > on the outside of the anatomy and does not land between the lovely ladies.
                        > The other option is to add a Frisbee to your archery gear and place it
                        > between your nether garment (note how carefully p.c. I am trying to be and
                        > ignore that red glow in the sky over Michigan) and your anatomy. The
                        > Frisbee will serve a similar function to the armguard and the placement
                        > means no taping or other annoyances are needed. I assume that you do not
                        > wish to use the Amazon solution. Self mutilation is such a drag!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I hope this helps some, rather than further muddying the waters,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Padraig MacRaighne
                        >
                      • arturdubh
                        The thing about making generalizations about anything, is that there are ALWAYS exceptions. Examples: The Natives of the Great Lakes Region are known to have
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 10, 2008
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                          The thing about making generalizations about anything, is that there
                          are ALWAYS exceptions.

                          Examples: The Natives of the Great Lakes Region are known to have
                          used ash self-bows, most likely capable of the same range as the ELB.
                          The "Nez Perce" of the Pacific Northwest (primarily modern Idaho) are
                          known to have made, used and traded hornbows (prized for their
                          strength and durability). source: Dr. Grayson's website.

                          To say that "Indian bows were, compared to, say, English longbows,
                          fairly weak" is just too much of a generalization. Same with saying
                          that Native Americans did not become proficient in horseback archery:
                          There were relatively few "tribes" which possesed the "White Man's
                          weapon" (and those that did have guns did not have enough for every
                          hunter - and guns were prized for their advantage in **war**). In the
                          short time between the (re)introduction of the horse and the arrival
                          of the "White Man", the Nez Perces alone became such proficient horse-
                          people that, from all the descriptions I have ever read, they rivaled
                          even the Mongols in riding and breeding; Lewis & Clark wrote that the
                          herds they saw were better than any breed the "White Man" possesed.

                          I have no doubt that many (no, not all) "tribes" had "warriors"
                          capable of supreme horse archery -- even in the latter decades of the
                          19th century, when "all the Indians" had firearms.

                          --Artúr - Never believed the Hollywood version of European archery,
                          either...where every peasant had a hand-crafted yew self-bow that
                          even the King would pay a ransom for.


                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Grossberg"
                          <geejayem@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: logantheboweyder
                          > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: 3/10/2008 10:01:56 AM
                          > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: About Armguards and such
                          >
                          >
                          > The Teton (Lakota) Sioux first got introduced to horses around
                          1720.
                          > Assigning them any profeciency and tradition in horseback archery
                          > hunting might be more attributable to hollywood, wishful thinking,
                          or
                          > historical revisionism, rather than having a firm basis in fact.
                          > Certainly they did not have horseback archery in period times, as
                          the
                          > horse had been extinct in North America until reintroduction by the
                          > conquistadores. Louis & Clark wrote that most of the native
                          Americans
                          > that they came across were completely unfamiliar with the horse.
                          From
                          > the time that the horse was introduced to the time that the firearm
                          > was introduced is such a short interval that, at best, only a
                          handful
                          > of generations even had an opportunity to do it.
                          >
                          > Logan
                          >
                          > True, before the Spanish arrived, the Native Americans made do with
                          dogs
                          > as beasts of burden, and didn't ride *them*. However, they were
                          still
                          > champions
                          > at sneaking up on their prey. Indian bows were, compared to, say,
                          English
                          > longbows,
                          > fairly weak. They didn't have the need for weapons that could hurl
                          an
                          > arrow long distances.
                          >
                        • ebpayne
                          The Crow had horn bows too, they re just beautiful and still take over a year to make...the problem with generalizing anything about Native Americans is that
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 11, 2008
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                            The Crow had horn bows too, they're just beautiful and still take
                            over a year to make...the problem with generalizing anything about
                            Native Americans is that there were so many of such different
                            cultures. There were plains peoples who never adopted horses, or had
                            them but only used them as beasts of burden. Horsebow hunting was by
                            no means universal on the Plains. The Lakota were numerous but only
                            one of many.

                            Sorcha

                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "arturdubh" <nasionnaich@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > The thing about making generalizations about anything, is that
                            there
                            > are ALWAYS exceptions.
                            >
                            > Examples: The Natives of the Great Lakes Region are known to have
                            > used ash self-bows, most likely capable of the same range as the
                            ELB.
                            > The "Nez Perce" of the Pacific Northwest (primarily modern Idaho)
                            are
                            > known to have made, used and traded hornbows (prized for their
                            > strength and durability). source: Dr. Grayson's website.
                            >
                            > To say that "Indian bows were, compared to, say, English longbows,
                            > fairly weak" is just too much of a generalization. Same with saying
                            > that Native Americans did not become proficient in horseback
                            archery:
                            > There were relatively few "tribes" which possesed the "White Man's
                            > weapon" (and those that did have guns did not have enough for every
                            > hunter - and guns were prized for their advantage in **war**). In
                            the
                            > short time between the (re)introduction of the horse and the
                            arrival
                            > of the "White Man", the Nez Perces alone became such proficient
                            horse-
                            > people that, from all the descriptions I have ever read, they
                            rivaled
                            > even the Mongols in riding and breeding; Lewis & Clark wrote that
                            the
                            > herds they saw were better than any breed the "White Man" possesed.
                            >
                            > I have no doubt that many (no, not all) "tribes" had "warriors"
                            > capable of supreme horse archery -- even in the latter decades of
                            the
                            > 19th century, when "all the Indians" had firearms.
                            >
                            > --Artúr - Never believed the Hollywood version of European archery,
                            > either...where every peasant had a hand-crafted yew self-bow that
                            > even the King would pay a ransom for.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Grossberg"
                            > <geejayem@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: logantheboweyder
                            > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: 3/10/2008 10:01:56 AM
                            > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: About Armguards and such
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > The Teton (Lakota) Sioux first got introduced to horses around
                            > 1720.
                            > > Assigning them any profeciency and tradition in horseback archery
                            > > hunting might be more attributable to hollywood, wishful
                            thinking,
                            > or
                            > > historical revisionism, rather than having a firm basis in fact.
                            > > Certainly they did not have horseback archery in period times, as
                            > the
                            > > horse had been extinct in North America until reintroduction by
                            the
                            > > conquistadores. Louis & Clark wrote that most of the native
                            > Americans
                            > > that they came across were completely unfamiliar with the horse.
                            > From
                            > > the time that the horse was introduced to the time that the
                            firearm
                            > > was introduced is such a short interval that, at best, only a
                            > handful
                            > > of generations even had an opportunity to do it.
                            > >
                            > > Logan
                            > >
                            > > True, before the Spanish arrived, the Native Americans made do
                            with
                            > dogs
                            > > as beasts of burden, and didn't ride *them*. However, they were
                            > still
                            > > champions
                            > > at sneaking up on their prey. Indian bows were, compared to,
                            say,
                            > English
                            > > longbows,
                            > > fairly weak. They didn't have the need for weapons that could
                            hurl
                            > an
                            > > arrow long distances.
                            > >
                            >
                          • Lady Teresa of Blackwell Hall
                            In addition to the comments already made about the Sioux Indians so far, it is also important to understand the Sioux (Lakota, Dakota and Nakota) were fairly
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 11, 2008
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                              In addition to the comments already made about the Sioux Indians so
                              far, it is also important to understand the Sioux (Lakota, Dakota and
                              Nakota) were fairly recent arrivals to the plains region. Prior to
                              the horse and gun period, the tribe that dominated this are were the
                              Mandan. They were mound builders, hunter/gatherers and
                              farmer/planters. Small bands of Mandan were still living in the
                              Dakotas when Lewis and Clark explored this area.

                              Archealogical evidence shows a "stampede/drive em off a cliff" method
                              of hunting buffalo. Sioux bows were short (2-3 ft long) 1 1/2 to 2"
                              wide, very stiff and sineu backed. Having seen them shot, they are
                              very powerful at short ranges, best suited for rabbit and grouse
                              hunting. War parties used spears and war clubs in human fights. If
                              the Sioux fired arrows at a wagon train, it was more for harrasment
                              and the fear factor than to actually do harm.

                              YIS Lady Teresa, in the heart of Sioux Country


                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "logantheboweyder"
                              <logantheboweyder@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The Teton (Lakota) Sioux first got introduced to horses around
                              1720.
                              > Assigning them any profeciency and tradition in horseback archery
                              > hunting might be more attributable to hollywood, wishful thinking,
                              or
                              > historical revisionism, rather than having a firm basis in fact.
                              > Certainly they did not have horseback archery in period times, as
                              the
                              > horse had been extinct in North America until reintroduction by the
                              > conquistadores. Louis & Clark wrote that most of the native
                              Americans
                              > that they came across were completely unfamiliar with the horse.
                              From
                              > the time that the horse was introduced to the time that the firearm
                              > was introduced is such a short interval that, at best, only a
                              handful
                              > of generations even had an opportunity to do it.
                              >
                              > Logan
                              >
                              > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Grossberg" <geejayem@>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              > > The plains indians did most of their hunting from horseback, as
                              well
                              > as being able to sneak up on their targets.
                              >
                              > > Gardr Gunnarsson
                              > >
                              >
                            • Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
                              ... SNIP ... This also describes the bows that the Welsh were using, at the time of Gerald of Wales writing of his journey across Wales, circa 1100. Where he
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 12, 2008
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                                > Re: About Armguards and such
                                SNIP
                                >
                                >Archealogical evidence shows a "stampede/drive em off a cliff" method
                                >
                                >of hunting buffalo. Sioux bows were short (2-3 ft long) 1 1/2 to 2"
                                >
                                >wide, very stiff and sineu backed. Having seen them shot, they are
                                >
                                >very powerful at short ranges, best suited for rabbit and grouse
                                >
                                >hunting. War parties used spears and war clubs in human fights. If
                                >
                                >the Sioux fired arrows at a wagon train, it was more for harrasment
                                >
                                >and the fear factor than to actually do harm.
                                >
                                >YIS Lady Teresa, in the heart of Sioux Country


                                This also describes the bows that the Welsh were using, at the time of Gerald of
                                Wales writing of his journey across Wales, circa 1100. Where he describes the
                                Welsh bow as short, rough and twisted as though made from several branches...
                                describing the short elm bow.

                                It is indeed interesting to see the progress of archery in cultures who never had
                                contact with other, but yet their progress and day to day life, is striking similar.

                                Godwin
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                              • jameswolfden
                                I am going to have to respectfully disagree on this point. Gerald never describes the bow as being short. Most translations have it at rude, uncouth, and
                                Message 15 of 15 , Mar 12, 2008
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                                  I am going to have to respectfully disagree on this point. Gerald never
                                  describes the bow as being short. Most translations have it at rude,
                                  uncouth, and stout. Stout means strong.

                                  There is little from Gerald's description that lets us know its length
                                  or how it compares to the more familiar English Longbow except that Elm
                                  was favoured over Yew.

                                  Pure speculation on my part but I believe that the Welsh bow was pretty
                                  much an English Longbow and that's why we don't hear any more about it
                                  other than Gerald of Wales comments.


                                  James Wolfden

                                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
                                  <archergodwin@...> wrote:
                                  > This also describes the bows that the Welsh were using, at the time
                                  of Gerald of
                                  > Wales writing of his journey across Wales, circa 1100. Where he
                                  describes the
                                  > Welsh bow as short, rough and twisted as though made from several
                                  branches...
                                  > describing the short elm bow.
                                  >
                                  > It is indeed interesting to see the progress of archery in cultures
                                  who never had
                                  > contact with other, but yet their progress and day to day life, is
                                  striking similar.
                                  >
                                  > Godwin
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