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RE: [SCA-Archery] Re: Shooting Form

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  • Bill Brown
    Your advice is well taken. I will try to get a better video and better footage and have another snippet to look at soon. I have pretty good groups, often, but
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 12, 2008
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      Your advice is well taken. I will try to get a better video and better
      footage and have another snippet to look at soon. I have pretty good groups,
      often, but not consistent enough to take credit for them preferring to thank
      the gods…lol. There is little traditional archery in my area and it is an
      honor to have who I consider experts in the field offer their wisdom. Thank
      you.



      Domingos



      _____

      From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of arturdubh
      Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:00 PM
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Shooting Form



      The video is a bit grainy, and the resolution therefor is not all
      that great, and I am not really anyone of importance (not of Great
      Accomplishment) in the world of SCA archery -- but here's what I see:

      The draw: Your arm looks to be in line with the arrow, at least
      up/down alginment. But it looks like your wrist is bent on release,
      which causes the elbow to be out of line -- and often causes the
      string to be 'plucked' to the side. It's difficult to tell, really,
      since there is no footage from behind and the camera view is too far
      away for a clear picture.... The bow arm looks good, nicely lined up
      with the arrow; the elbow looks to be bent consistently. I am
      wondering what type of grip your longbow has, i.e., "Howard Hill"
      or "straight" grip...I'm just curious. It appears that your shoulders
      are a little hunched, even at full-draw, but this could be from the
      perspective the video was shot from.

      Your anchor looks solid and consistent; draw length does not seem to
      be changing from shot to shot.

      The release: You seem to be "flinging" your fingers open, instead of
      just letting them relax... Your "follow through" looks to be good;
      you aren't jerking around, you aren't letting your bow arm drop too
      soon and you appear to be looking to where you want the shot to go
      from draw to "thunk" (when the arrow hits the target).

      With the camera being hand-held, the view is a bit shaky, so some
      things which might need a bit of work may be "masked". If you are
      willing to do it again, possibly include footage from behind as you
      shoot, as well as from behind (no, I don't care about your hinder-
      quarters - we need to see if you are using your back as much as
      posible) and a few close-ups of your anchor/release (or at least a
      zoom to show mostly the shoulders/arms..); it'll help to better
      identify any areas which might need work.

      I hope this critique will be of some use to you, sir.

      --Artúr

      --- In SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
      "Bill Brown" <stickbow@...> wrote:
      >
      > This may be out of place but would anyone mind critiquing a short
      you tube
      > video of me shooting a half light of arrows, I don't mind reply's
      on list as
      > I respect the expertise in this group.
      >
      >
      >
      > http://www.youtube <http://www.youtube.com/v/6AMnqr9nv5g>
      com/v/6AMnqr9nv5g
      >
      >
      >
      > Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
      > Arenal, Meridies
      >
      >
      >
      > Mine honour is my life, both grow in one. Take honour from me, and
      my life
      > is done."
      >
      > - William Shakespeare, Richard II (1.1.182-185)
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Carolus
      I had to watch the video several times and finally step through it. For the most part your form is very nice. Whit I saw are fine tuning items. First, your
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 12, 2008
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        I had to watch the video several times and
        finally step through it. For the most part your
        form is very nice. Whit I saw are fine tuning
        items. First, your shoulders are hunched and
        tense. Relax. Second, as you begin to draw,
        your string arm is very tense and taut. Taken
        together, these show that you are not using your
        back to draw. This makes you work too hard with
        your arm. This also leads to the cock in your
        wrist. As you relax it will straighten
        out. Also as a result, you do tend to "explode"
        your release resulting in at least a loss of
        energy if not a pluck of the string.

        You are steady and in place at anchor but you
        stop drawing when you reach anchor. You should
        relax your fingers at that point but continue
        drawing through it. Your elbow should continue
        on the same line through your release. This can
        result in 5-15 fps increase in arrow speed. It
        will also reduce the tendency to pluck and will
        improve your group. I could not see if you kept
        your mouth in the same position or if you
        clenched your jaw nor could I detect if your
        breathing was consistent with the same amount of
        breath in your lungs at release. These can also affect the shot.

        You could improve your consistency if you slowed
        down your shots a little, resting a bit more
        between each shot. This is fine form for speed
        shooting but your untimed shooting can improve
        considerably by resting a little. These are all
        rather advanced items and you are doing fine at this point.
        Carolus

        At 09:14 PM 2/12/2008, you wrote:

        >Your advice is well taken. I will try to get a better video and better
        >footage and have another snippet to look at soon. I have pretty good groups,
        >often, but not consistent enough to take credit for them preferring to thank
        >the gods…lol. There is little traditional archery in my area and it is an
        >honor to have who I consider experts in the field offer their wisdom. Thank
        >you.
        >
        >Domingos
        >
        >_____
        >
        >From:
        ><mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        >[mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
        >Behalf Of arturdubh
        >Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:00 PM
        >To: <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Shooting Form
        >
        >The video is a bit grainy, and the resolution therefor is not all
        >that great, and I am not really anyone of importance (not of Great
        >Accomplishment) in the world of SCA archery -- but here's what I see:
        >
        >The draw: Your arm looks to be in line with the arrow, at least
        >up/down alginment. But it looks like your wrist is bent on release,
        >which causes the elbow to be out of line -- and often causes the
        >string to be 'plucked' to the side. It's difficult to tell, really,
        >since there is no footage from behind and the camera view is too far
        >away for a clear picture.... The bow arm looks good, nicely lined up
        >with the arrow; the elbow looks to be bent consistently. I am
        >wondering what type of grip your longbow has, i.e., "Howard Hill"
        >or "straight" grip...I'm just curious. It appears that your shoulders
        >are a little hunched, even at full-draw, but this could be from the
        >perspective the video was shot from.
        >
        >Your anchor looks solid and consistent; draw length does not seem to
        >be changing from shot to shot.
        >
        >The release: You seem to be "flinging" your fingers open, instead of
        >just letting them relax... Your "follow through" looks to be good;
        >you aren't jerking around, you aren't letting your bow arm drop too
        >soon and you appear to be looking to where you want the shot to go
        >from draw to "thunk" (when the arrow hits the target).
        >
        >With the camera being hand-held, the view is a bit shaky, so some
        >things which might need a bit of work may be "masked". If you are
        >willing to do it again, possibly include footage from behind as you
        >shoot, as well as from behind (no, I don't care about your hinder-
        >quarters - we need to see if you are using your back as much as
        >posible) and a few close-ups of your anchor/release (or at least a
        >zoom to show mostly the shoulders/arms..); it'll help to better
        >identify any areas which might need work.
        >
        >I hope this critique will be of some use to you, sir.
        >
        >--Artúr
        >
        >--- In SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
        >"Bill Brown" <stickbow@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > This may be out of place but would anyone mind critiquing a short
        >you tube
        > > video of me shooting a half light of arrows, I don't mind reply's
        >on list as
        > > I respect the expertise in this group.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > <http://www.youtube>http://www.youtube
        > <http://www.youtube.com/v/6AMnqr9nv5g>
        >com/v/6AMnqr9nv5g
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
        > > Arenal, Meridies
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Mine honour is my life, both grow in one. Take honour from me, and
        >my life
        > > is done."
        > >
        > > - William Shakespeare, Richard II (1.1.182-185)
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >No virus found in this incoming message.
        >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1272
        >- Release Date: 2/11/2008 5:28 PM


        --
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      • Fritz
        When Bill Brown put fingers to keys it was 2/12/08 9:10 PM... ... What I see is variation in the follow-through of the string hand. It doesn t seem to do the
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 13, 2008
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          When Bill Brown put fingers to keys it was 2/12/08 9:10 PM...

          > This may be out of place but would anyone mind critiquing a short you tube
          > video of me shooting a half light of arrows,

          What I see is variation in the follow-through of the string hand. It
          doesn't seem to do the same thing after each release.


          --
          Fritz
          Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.
        • Edward deWitt
          Lord Domingos, I am not going to try to critique your form since mine has many problems, but I have been fussed at for drawing my arrows from the quiver
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 13, 2008
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            Lord Domingos, I am not going to try to critique your form since mine has many problems, but I have been fussed at for drawing my arrows from the quiver below the fletching. I am still trying to break the habit. As you do, I did this and sometimes I had a hard time hitting the string with the nock. This was really important when shooting speed rounds. Those fussing at me said to grab by the nock, this giving me quicker placement of the nock to string. I am still having trouble with this, but I think it has to do with the long length of my quiver not being able to clear it.
            FWIW

            Edward
            Bill Brown <stickbow@...> wrote: This may be out of place but would anyone mind critiquing a short you tube
            video of me shooting a half light of arrows, I don't mind reply's on list as
            I respect the expertise in this group.

            http://www.youtube.com/v/6AMnqr9nv5g

            Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
            Arenal, Meridies

            Mine honour is my life, both grow in one. Take honour from me, and my life
            is done."

            - William Shakespeare, Richard II (1.1.182-185)

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            ---------------------------------
            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Hobbe
            ... I can t add anything constructive to what has been said by the others, but I do see one thing in your form that bothers me when I see it. I also know that
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 13, 2008
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              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Brown" <stickbow@...> wrote:
              > Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
              > Arenal, Meridies

              I can't add anything constructive to what has been said by the others,
              but I do see one thing in your form that bothers me when I see it. I
              also know that I am often guilty of doing the same...

              Pointing your arrow upwards as you draw. There is really no reason to
              do so and if your fingers slip off the string the arrow will likely
              travel farther than you wish.

              Respectfully,
              Hobbe
            • Scott B. Jaqua
              ... I believe both these problems can be addressed in the Pre-Draw. I have found that using a technique taken from Japanese archery works for me. First hold
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 13, 2008
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                Carolus wrote:

                > Second, as you begin to draw,
                > your string arm is very tense and taut. Taken
                > together, these show that you are not using your
                > back to draw. This makes you work too hard with
                > your arm. This also leads to the cock in your
                > wrist.


                Hobbe wrote:

                > I can't add anything constructive to what has been said by the others,
                > but I do see one thing in your form that bothers me when I see it. I
                > also know that I am often guilty of doing the same...
                >
                > Pointing your arrow upwards as you draw. There is really no reason to
                > do so and if your fingers slip off the string the arrow will likely
                > travel farther than you wish.

                I believe both these problems can be addressed in the Pre-Draw. I have
                found that using a technique taken from Japanese archery works for me.
                First hold both your bow hand and string hand slightly above your head
                with the arrow level to the ground (this is called Climbing Mount
                something or another in Japanese archery). Then draw the bow by puling
                both hands down to your draw and anchor position, moving in as straight
                a line as possible. If you do it right, you will feel it in the back
                right off. You can not avoid using you back instead of your arms. It
                also keeps the arrow safely pointed down range the entire time.

                Not that my form is perfect by any means. I still have the pluck, I was
                known for (and some of my students picked up). I keep hoping it's
                consistent enough that is a part of my form almost like a certain
                Olympic archer that used to shoot for ASU. But somehow I don't think so :)

                Njall

                --

                Scott B. Jaqua
                Hagerson Forge, Custom Blades from Historic Patterns
                http://www.hagersonforge.com
              • Bill Brown
                Ok, one step at a time is the only way to move forward. I am going to concentrate first on my release. It is very apparent that I am plucking my string like a
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 13, 2008
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                  Ok, one step at a time is the only way to move forward. I am going to
                  concentrate first on my release. It is very apparent that I am plucking my
                  string like a base guitar. Some of this may be from homemade/cheap shooting
                  glove trying to clear the fingertips of the glove. I will look at this and
                  practice the "let the hand relax, the string will follow" method I "thought"
                  I was doing. I looked at that video several times and never noticed the
                  things spoken of until they were pointed out. I see them now. This is
                  turning out to be similar to a bow build along, but instead a shooting form
                  build along..thanks!



                  Domingos



                  _____

                  From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Hobbe
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:39 AM
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Shooting Form



                  --- In SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                  "Bill Brown" <stickbow@...> wrote:
                  > Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
                  > Arenal, Meridies

                  I can't add anything constructive to what has been said by the others,
                  but I do see one thing in your form that bothers me when I see it. I
                  also know that I am often guilty of doing the same...

                  Pointing your arrow upwards as you draw. There is really no reason to
                  do so and if your fingers slip off the string the arrow will likely
                  travel farther than you wish.

                  Respectfully,
                  Hobbe





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John and Carol Atkins
                  Many good points here but the one I noticed and it s effect was commented here by Carolus is holding the draw. Carolus and others pointed out your shoulders
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 13, 2008
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                    Many good points here but the one I noticed and it's effect was
                    commented here by Carolus is holding the draw. Carolus and others
                    pointed out your shoulders seem hunched and your draw/release occurs
                    rapidly. Good for speed rounds, not so good for untimed rounds. I
                    think the problem here lies in your stance. You appear to be using
                    what is called an open stance. In this case, very open stance. That
                    is, the basic stance has your toes perpendicular to a line from your
                    position to the target. In this position your bow arm is referred to
                    as being bone on bone on bone. That is, bow hand anchored to arm,
                    anchored to shoulder. In this configuration it takes little arm
                    strength to hold and maintain a steady aim prior to release. Now
                    also, if you are using the basic stance as you reach your anchor
                    point, I tell folks "stick your chest out". This forces your body to
                    use your back muscles to hold the draw and takes the strain off your
                    arm muscles. It also adds an inch or two to your draw and results in
                    faster arrow speed. In the video you appear to have your forward
                    foot back off the line from position to target. This position is
                    very good for snap shooting where you do not hold the draw but also
                    requires the draw to be held primarily by your arm muscles.

                    I find for myself when I begin to have shooting issues I actually
                    move into a closed stance, wherein my backward foot is behind the
                    line from postion to target. This forces my body to "twist" into the
                    shooting position but into the bone on bone on bone stance. Think
                    like a horse bow archer shooting over his shoulder but not that
                    exagerated.

                    Edward's point of grabbing the next arrow by the nock I find has
                    increased my performance in the speed rounds considerably. Another
                    trick I use is to hold two extra arrows in my bow hand fingers. More
                    specifically I hold one between my little finger and ring finger and
                    a second between my middle finger and index finger, with a third
                    arrow on the string. After I shoot the first arrow on the string I
                    simply grab the nock of the next arrow in my bow hand and lever it
                    onto the string. I get off three arrows in fairly rapid sequence.
                    The guy I learned this trick from holds three arrows in his bow hand
                    with one on the string.

                    Good luck in your venture and most interesting way to get critique on
                    techinque,

                    cog
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