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Preparing for A&S

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  • Bill Brown
    I am at the point in building hand planed/self nocked/ had forged bodkin tip arrows that I feel I am ready to have them judged in an A&S competition. My
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 14, 2008
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      I am at the point in building hand planed/self nocked/ had forged bodkin tip
      arrows that I feel I am ready to have them judged in an A&S competition. My
      question is more of format and reference citing. Does the group have any
      recommendations (with ISBN #) for reference material. I don't want to do
      this from internet sources (even though that is where I have found most of
      my information.



      Thanks,



      Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
      Arenal, Meridies



      Mine honour is my life, both grow in one. Take honour from me, and my life
      is done."

      - William Shakespeare, Richard II (1.1.182-185)





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • morgan wolf
      There s nothing wrong with internet sources, as long as they are reputable- Lord Bubba s MySpace page is NOT good documentation, the University of ____
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 14, 2008
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        There's nothing wrong with internet sources, as long as they are reputable- Lord Bubba's MySpace page is NOT good documentation, the University of ____ website is.

        Morgan



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Bill Brown <stickbow@...>
        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 12:15:51 PM
        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Preparing for A&S

        I am at the point in building hand planed/self nocked/ had forged bodkin tip
        arrows that I feel I am ready to have them judged in an A&S competition. My
        question is more of format and reference citing. Does the group have any
        recommendations (with ISBN #) for reference material. I don't want to do
        this from internet sources (even though that is where I have found most of
        my information.

        Thanks,

        Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
        Arenal, Meridies

        Mine honour is my life, both grow in one. Take honour from me, and my life
        is done."

        - William Shakespeare, Richard II (1.1.182-185)

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        Be a better friend, newshound, and
        know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jameswolfden
        Either of the two Hardy books,The Great Warbow and Longbow: A Social and Military History, have sections covering the Mary Rose finds. I don t have the ISBN
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 14, 2008
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          Either of the two Hardy books,The Great Warbow and Longbow: A Social
          and Military History, have sections covering the Mary Rose finds. I
          don't have the ISBN handy but I'm sure they would be on Amazon.com.

          The Mary Rose website has a nice artifact catalog where you can get
          lengths and thickness of the arrow shafts. While it is a website, it
          will fall into that 'reliable' category.

          With something like an arrow, your documentation is going to be
          based mainly on existing artifacts (physically in your hand) or on
          reliable first hand accounts of people examing the artifacts.

          Toxophilus is another good period source but it does not get into
          construction. There are some online PDF versions of a public domain
          version printed copy. I think a link is already in our groups links
          list.

          James

          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Brown" <stickbow@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I am at the point in building hand planed/self nocked/ had forged
          bodkin tip
          > arrows that I feel I am ready to have them judged in an A&S
          competition. My
          > question is more of format and reference citing. Does the group
          have any
          > recommendations (with ISBN #) for reference material. I don't want
          to do
          > this from internet sources (even though that is where I have found
          most of
          > my information.
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          >
          >
          > Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
          > Arenal, Meridies
          >
          >
          >
          > Mine honour is my life, both grow in one. Take honour from me, and
          my life
          > is done."
          >
          > - William Shakespeare, Richard II (1.1.182-185)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • logantheboweyder
          A question to some of the A&S laurels here... Do you consider _photographs_ of artifacts, cited along with their museum references and collection numbers, a
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 14, 2008
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            A question to some of the A&S laurels here...

            Do you consider _photographs_ of artifacts, cited along with their
            museum references and collection numbers, a primary source, or do
            you consider them a secondary source, no "better" than citing Hardy?

            Logan the Boweyder
            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden"
            <jameswolfden@...> wrote:
            >
            > Either of the two Hardy books,The Great Warbow and Longbow: A
            Social
            > and Military History, have sections covering the Mary Rose finds.
            I
            > don't have the ISBN handy but I'm sure they would be on Amazon.com.
            >
            > The Mary Rose website has a nice artifact catalog where you can
            get
            > lengths and thickness of the arrow shafts. While it is a website,
            it
            > will fall into that 'reliable' category.
            >
            > With something like an arrow, your documentation is going to be
            > based mainly on existing artifacts (physically in your hand) or on
            > reliable first hand accounts of people examing the artifacts.
            >
            > Toxophilus is another good period source but it does not get into
            > construction. There are some online PDF versions of a public
            domain
            > version printed copy. I think a link is already in our groups
            links
            > list.
            >
            > James
            >
            > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Brown" <stickbow@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I am at the point in building hand planed/self nocked/ had
            forged
            > bodkin tip
            > > arrows that I feel I am ready to have them judged in an A&S
            > competition. My
            > > question is more of format and reference citing. Does the group
            > have any
            > > recommendations (with ISBN #) for reference material. I don't
            want
            > to do
            > > this from internet sources (even though that is where I have
            found
            > most of
            > > my information.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
            > > Arenal, Meridies
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Mine honour is my life, both grow in one. Take honour from me,
            and
            > my life
            > > is done."
            > >
            > > - William Shakespeare, Richard II (1.1.182-185)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • Jeff Morton
            IANAL, but... If you took the photograph yourself, for your reference and A&S display, because you had access to the artifact, then you can say you worked with
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 14, 2008
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              IANAL, but...

              If you took the photograph yourself, for your reference and A&S
              display, because you had access to the artifact, then you can say you
              worked with the primary source and provide the photograph as a
              secondary source for others. Otherwise, the photograph by itself is a
              secondary source. Longbow, by Hardy (which I haven't read, so I can't
              be more precise) probably would be a secondary or tertiary source
              depending on the portions cited. Photographs of extant items,
              personal analysis of those items by the author, and period
              illustrations and quotations would be secondary, the remainder would
              be tertiary.

              Also, I think within the different classes of sources, there's some
              room for valuation of the individual source. Its not like you're
              being assigned points for each source you cite with more points for
              primary sources, etc., (maybe you are, I don't know) but for the
              quality of the sources and the comprehensive and cohesive nature of
              your compilation of the documentation and the resultant recreation.

              - Brochfael / Jeff
              On Jan 14, 2008 4:01 PM, logantheboweyder <logantheboweyder@...> wrote:
              > A question to some of the A&S laurels here...
              >
              > Do you consider _photographs_ of artifacts, cited along with their
              > museum references and collection numbers, a primary source, or do
              > you consider them a secondary source, no "better" than citing Hardy?
              >
              > Logan the Boweyder
              > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden"
              > <jameswolfden@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Either of the two Hardy books,The Great Warbow and Longbow: A
              > Social
              > > and Military History, have sections covering the Mary Rose finds.
              > I
              > > don't have the ISBN handy but I'm sure they would be on Amazon.com.
              > >
              > > The Mary Rose website has a nice artifact catalog where you can
              > get
              > > lengths and thickness of the arrow shafts. While it is a website,
              > it
              > > will fall into that 'reliable' category.
              > >
              > > With something like an arrow, your documentation is going to be
              > > based mainly on existing artifacts (physically in your hand) or on
              > > reliable first hand accounts of people examing the artifacts.
              > >
              > > Toxophilus is another good period source but it does not get into
              > > construction. There are some online PDF versions of a public
              > domain
              > > version printed copy. I think a link is already in our groups
              > links
              > > list.
              > >
              > > James
              > >
              > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Brown" <stickbow@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I am at the point in building hand planed/self nocked/ had
              > forged
              > > bodkin tip
              > > > arrows that I feel I am ready to have them judged in an A&S
              > > competition. My
              > > > question is more of format and reference citing. Does the group
              > > have any
              > > > recommendations (with ISBN #) for reference material. I don't
              > want
              > > to do
              > > > this from internet sources (even though that is where I have
              > found
              > > most of
              > > > my information.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Thanks,
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
              > > > Arenal, Meridies
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Mine honour is my life, both grow in one. Take honour from me,
              > and
              > > my life
              > > > is done."
              > > >
              > > > - William Shakespeare, Richard II (1.1.182-185)
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Dan Lind
              If someone considders a photograph of an extant artifact to be a secondary source, what exactly are they considdering it secondary to? What is the primary
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 14, 2008
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                If someone considders a photograph of an extant artifact to be a secondary
                source, what exactly are they considdering it secondary to? What is the
                primary source of this example? The artifact itself?

                Einarr the Christian


                On 1/14/08, logantheboweyder <logantheboweyder@...> wrote:
                >
                > A question to some of the A&S laurels here...
                >
                > Do you consider _photographs_ of artifacts, cited along with their
                > museum references and collection numbers, a primary source, or do
                > you consider them a secondary source, no "better" than citing Hardy?
                >
                > Logan the Boweyder
                > .
                >
                >
                >



                --
                Einarr the Christian Son of Håkon, GPA
                Côte du Ciel
                Artemisia
                (MKA Dan Lind)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jeff Morton
                I recall reading that some of the shafts have either residue or discoloration from the residue of the glue holding the fletches on, and the fletches were
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 14, 2008
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                  I recall reading that some of the shafts have either residue or
                  discoloration from the residue of the glue holding the fletches on,
                  and the fletches were placed helically. Does anyone know of any
                  sources confirm that, and if so, do they list the degree of helix?

                  - Brochfael / Jeff

                  On Jan 14, 2008 3:46 PM, jameswolfden <jameswolfden@...> wrote:
                  > Either of the two Hardy books,The Great Warbow and Longbow: A Social
                  > and Military History, have sections covering the Mary Rose finds. I
                  > don't have the ISBN handy but I'm sure they would be on Amazon.com.
                  >
                  > The Mary Rose website has a nice artifact catalog where you can get
                  > lengths and thickness of the arrow shafts. While it is a website, it
                  > will fall into that 'reliable' category.
                • zipper51em
                  ... There are a number of books with the information you seek. A recent puplication with a section on arrows is in Secrets of the English War Bow by Hugh D. H.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 14, 2008
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                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Brown" <stickbow@...> wrote:
                    >
                    There are a number of books with the information you seek. A recent
                    puplication with a section on arrows is in Secrets of the English War
                    Bow by Hugh D. H. Soar
                    Omelan


                    > I am at the point in building hand planed/self nocked/ had forged
                    bodkin tip
                    > arrows that I feel I am ready to have them judged in an A&S
                    competition. My
                    > question is more of format and reference citing. Does the group
                    have any
                    > recommendations (with ISBN #) for reference material. I don't want
                    to do
                    > this from internet sources (even though that is where I have found
                    most of
                    > my information.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
                    > Arenal, Meridies
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Mine honour is my life, both grow in one. Take honour from me, and
                    my life
                    > is done."
                    >
                    > - William Shakespeare, Richard II (1.1.182-185)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • carl.west@comcast.net
                    ... From: Bill Brown ... If it s a general A&S competition you cannot count on the judge(s) knowing _anything_ about what you ve done.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 14, 2008
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                      -------------- Original message ----------------------
                      From: "Bill Brown" <stickbow@...>
                      > I am at the point in building hand planed/self nocked/ had forged bodkin tip
                      > arrows that I feel I am ready to have them judged in an A&S competition. My
                      > question is more of format and reference citing. Does the group have any
                      > recommendations (with ISBN #) for reference material. I don't want to do
                      > this from internet sources (even though that is where I have found most of
                      > my information.


                      If it's a general A&S competition you cannot count on the judge(s) knowing _anything_ about what you've done. As much as you can, make your documentation a _lesson_ on the subject. Give sufficient detail for them to be able to look at your piece with a now-educated eye and judge it fairly.

                      I've been tapped to judge on occasion, because I'm a metalworker, not because I happen to know anything about the pieces. Sometimes the documentation has been great and I've learned about Frisian flangdaffles, and other times it has been a 3x5 card with the word "Fencing Helm" written on it. I'm left to use my own aesthetic judgement. I can be picky, especially if I'm grumpy about crappy documentation.

                      - Fritz aka Meister Frydherik Eysenkopf OL, Sagg,&cetera

                      P.S. Oh, and don't put BS in your doc either, a judge might be an authority on the subject. Then you're really hosed.
                    • Liam (the Doryman)
                      Hunting Weapons , from the middle ages to the twentieth century Howard L. Blackmore Dover Publishing ISBN 0-486-40961-9 $16.95 U.S. Liam (the Doryman) I am not
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 14, 2008
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                        Hunting Weapons , from the middle ages to the twentieth century
                        Howard L. Blackmore
                        Dover Publishing
                        ISBN 0-486-40961-9
                        $16.95 U.S.

                        Liam (the Doryman)
                        I am not sure if this is the "right" book you need,
                        but it has tons of information from around the world.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Bill Brown" <stickbow@...>
                        To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 11:15 AM
                        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Preparing for A&S


                        > I am at the point in building hand planed/self nocked/ had forged bodkin
                        tip
                        > arrows that I feel I am ready to have them judged in an A&S competition.
                        My
                        > question is more of format and reference citing. Does the group have any
                        > recommendations (with ISBN #) for reference material. I don't want to do
                        > this from internet sources (even though that is where I have found most of
                        > my information.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Lord Domingos de Leon CQY, LWM
                        > Arenal, Meridies
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Mine honour is my life, both grow in one. Take honour from me, and my life
                        > is done."
                        >
                        > - William Shakespeare, Richard II (1.1.182-185)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Carolus
                        Precisely. If one refers to the object itself with a photograph as a reference to it, the source is primary. If one is looking at the photograph and making
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 15, 2008
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                          Precisely. If one refers to the object itself with a photograph as a
                          reference to it, the source is primary. If one is looking at the
                          photograph and making observations from it, it is secondary. The
                          difference comes in that when looking at the photograph key aspects
                          may be hidden or trifling aspects magnified.
                          Carolus

                          At 01:21 PM 1/14/2008, you wrote:

                          >If someone considders a photograph of an extant artifact to be a secondary
                          >source, what exactly are they considdering it secondary to? What is the
                          >primary source of this example? The artifact itself?
                          >
                          >Einarr the Christian


                          --
                          No virus found in this outgoing message.
                          Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date: 1/14/2008 5:39 PM
                        • Scott B. Jaqua
                          ... Taking my Wallace Collection Catalog for example. That would make the photos of the artifacts, contained there in, primary source material. However the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 15, 2008
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                            > Precisely. If one refers to the object itself with a photograph as a
                            > reference to it, the source is primary. If one is looking at the
                            > photograph and making observations from it, it is secondary. The
                            > difference comes in that when looking at the photograph key aspects
                            > may be hidden or trifling aspects magnified.
                            > Carolus


                            Taking my Wallace Collection Catalog for example. That would make the
                            photos of the artifacts, contained there in, primary source material.
                            However the text entry for the item would be a secondary source to cite.
                            In that the observation of the dimensions and markings were not made by
                            me (but rather by someone on Sir David Edges staff).

                            Or photos of the Devonshire tapestries would be a secondary source for
                            the subject shown (if we accept the tapestries as being rendered from
                            direct observation in history). The text describing the content of the
                            tapestries would be a tertiary source. (unless we are talking about
                            fiber arts, then the photo of the tapestry is primary and the text
                            describing the construction of the tapestries is secondary (confusing
                            enough, for you?)).

                            Njall


                            --
                            Scott B. Jaqua
                            Hagerson Forge, Custom Blades from Historic Patterns
                            http://www.hagersonforge.com
                          • logantheboweyder
                            I m trying to figure out how things work in my head, NOT argue... So, a period painting would be a primary source for art, and a secondary source for archery?
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 15, 2008
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                              I'm trying to figure out how things work in my head, NOT argue...

                              So, a period painting would be a primary source for art, and a
                              secondary source for archery?

                              And following this example, a 1000 year old sausage would be a
                              primary source, and a period cookbook would be a secondary source
                              for sausage making, but a primary source for bookmaking and recipe
                              construction styles?


                              Logan
                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Precisely. If one refers to the object itself with a photograph
                              as a
                              > reference to it, the source is primary. If one is looking at the
                              > photograph and making observations from it, it is secondary. The
                              > difference comes in that when looking at the photograph key
                              aspects
                              > may be hidden or trifling aspects magnified.
                              > Carolus
                              >
                              > At 01:21 PM 1/14/2008, you wrote:
                              >
                              > >If someone considders a photograph of an extant artifact to be a
                              secondary
                              > >source, what exactly are they considdering it secondary to? What
                              is the
                              > >primary source of this example? The artifact itself?
                              > >
                              > >Einarr the Christian
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                              > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date:
                              1/14/2008 5:39 PM
                              >
                            • Jeff Morton
                              A period cookbook would be a primary source for sausage recipes, just as a period treatise on arrow making would be a primary source for arrow making. (I can
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 15, 2008
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                                A period cookbook would be a primary source for sausage recipes, just
                                as a period treatise on arrow making would be a primary source for
                                arrow making. (I can dream, right?)

                                On Jan 15, 2008 5:12 PM, logantheboweyder <logantheboweyder@...> wrote:
                                > I'm trying to figure out how things work in my head, NOT argue...
                                >
                                > So, a period painting would be a primary source for art, and a
                                > secondary source for archery?
                                >
                                > And following this example, a 1000 year old sausage would be a
                                > primary source, and a period cookbook would be a secondary source
                                > for sausage making, but a primary source for bookmaking and recipe
                                > construction styles?
                                >
                                >
                                > Logan
                                > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Precisely. If one refers to the object itself with a photograph
                                > as a
                                > > reference to it, the source is primary. If one is looking at the
                                > > photograph and making observations from it, it is secondary. The
                                > > difference comes in that when looking at the photograph key
                                > aspects
                                > > may be hidden or trifling aspects magnified.
                                > > Carolus
                                > >
                                > > At 01:21 PM 1/14/2008, you wrote:
                                > >
                                > > >If someone considders a photograph of an extant artifact to be a
                                > secondary
                                > > >source, what exactly are they considdering it secondary to? What
                                > is the
                                > > >primary source of this example? The artifact itself?
                                > > >
                                > > >Einarr the Christian
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date:
                                > 1/14/2008 5:39 PM
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • jameswolfden
                                Yes, but if the dream becomes real, let us know! Quite a number of us have the same dream.
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 15, 2008
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                                  Yes, but if the dream becomes real, let us know! Quite a number of us
                                  have the same dream.


                                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Morton" <ioldanach@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > A period cookbook would be a primary source for sausage recipes, just
                                  > as a period treatise on arrow making would be a primary source for
                                  > arrow making. (I can dream, right?)
                                  >
                                • J. Hughes
                                  OK, I have tried to educate A&S judges (to include Laurels) on the meanings of Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary. Only some time with success. These terms come
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 15, 2008
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                                    OK, I have tried to educate A&S judges (to include Laurels) on the meanings of Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary. Only some time with success. These terms come from the profession of History which use them to sort out their bibliography. Every historian knows a primary source can be misleading while a secondary can be quite enlightening. A Primary Source is one that is contemporaneous with the the event/manufacture that is under discussion. A photograph of an artifact is a primary source. A painting done at the time is a primary source (though it might well depict armor of a different era and therefore be less than fully useful). A manuscript done at the time is a primary source. A printed translation of a manuscript done at the time is a primary source. A secondary source is a commentary on an event or object in the past. There are medieval manuscripts that are secondary sources for the events they record (but primary for calligraphy and illumination of
                                    the period produced).

                                    When speaking of primary sources do not confuse the terminology with primary, secondary, and tertiary relics. There is not a relations of once, twice, or three times removed. There is one large kingdom that insists in its judging criteria to give different points for number of primary sources, secondary sources, and tertiary sources. They are flat wrong to do so and I have not been remiss in telling them that.

                                    It is better to go beyond any hangup with primary and secondary to "best available evidence critically examined."

                                    Charles O'Connor
                                    (MKA J. Patrick Hughes, Ph.D.)


                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: logantheboweyder <logantheboweyder@...>
                                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12:15 PM
                                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Preparing for A&

                                    I'm trying to figure out how things work in my head, NOT argue...

                                    So, a period painting would be a primary source for art, and a
                                    secondary source for archery?

                                    And following this example, a 1000 year old sausage would be a
                                    primary source, and a period cookbook would be a secondary source
                                    for sausage making, but a primary source for bookmaking and recipe
                                    construction styles?

                                    Logan
                                    --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, Carolus <eulenhorst@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Precisely. If one refers to the object itself with a photograph
                                    as a
                                    > reference to it, the source is primary. If one is looking at the
                                    > photograph and making observations from it, it is secondary. The
                                    > difference comes in that when looking at the photograph key
                                    aspects
                                    > may be hidden or trifling aspects magnified.
                                    > Carolus
                                    >
                                    > At 01:21 PM 1/14/2008, you wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >If someone considders a photograph of an extant artifact to be a
                                    secondary
                                    > >source, what exactly are they considdering it secondary to? What
                                    is the
                                    > >primary source of this example? The artifact itself?
                                    > >
                                    > >Einarr the ChristianRecent Activity
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                                  • Carolus
                                    No, in these cases all the examples are primary sources. In the previous case the photo is a modern resource, not contemporary with the object being
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jan 16, 2008
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                                      No, in these cases all the examples are primary sources. In the
                                      previous case the photo is a modern resource, not contemporary with
                                      the object being documented. In the cases you cite the sources are
                                      all contemporaneous. If you were to make an object today, take a
                                      photo of it, make a painting of it, and write a book about it, they
                                      would become primary sources to a future researcher but a future
                                      photo viewed by the same researchers would be secondary. One of the
                                      reasons is that the photo taken in the future will show all the
                                      effects of wear and tear on the object and will not show its
                                      condition when it was in use. For instance, if I have a medieval
                                      arrow which has lost it's fletching and I replace it with plastic
                                      vanes it will be obvious on examination that the vanes were
                                      changed. If you were to only look at a photo of the arrow after it
                                      was modified you might not be able to tell the change was made. This
                                      is an extreme example drawn for illustrative purposes but it
                                      demonstrates the principal.

                                      The simple rule is if the source was made at the same time the
                                      artifact was used by someone who had firsthand knowledge of the
                                      object, it is primary.
                                      Carolus

                                      At 02:12 PM 1/15/2008, you wrote:

                                      >I'm trying to figure out how things work in my head, NOT argue...
                                      >
                                      >So, a period painting would be a primary source for art, and a
                                      >secondary source for archery?
                                      >
                                      >And following this example, a 1000 year old sausage would be a
                                      >primary source, and a period cookbook would be a secondary source
                                      >for sausage making, but a primary source for bookmaking and recipe
                                      >construction styles?
                                      >
                                      >Logan


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                                    • logantheboweyder
                                      Thank you on the clear and consice explanation. Logan ... meanings of Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary. Only some time with success. These terms come from the
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jan 16, 2008
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                                        Thank you on the clear and consice explanation.

                                        Logan

                                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "J. Hughes" <jphughessr@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > OK, I have tried to educate A&S judges (to include Laurels) on the
                                        meanings of Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary. Only some time with
                                        success. These terms come from the profession of History which use
                                        them to sort out their bibliography. Every historian knows a primary
                                        source can be misleading while a secondary can be quite
                                        enlightening. A Primary Source is one that is contemporaneous with
                                        the the event/manufacture that is under discussion. A photograph of
                                        an artifact is a primary source. A painting done at the time is a
                                        primary source (though it might well depict armor of a different era
                                        and therefore be less than fully useful). A manuscript done at the
                                        time is a primary source. A printed translation of a manuscript done
                                        at the time is a primary source. A secondary source is a commentary
                                        on an event or object in the past. There are medieval manuscripts
                                        that are secondary sources for the events they record (but primary
                                        for calligraphy and illumination of
                                        > the period produced).
                                        >
                                        > When speaking of primary sources do not confuse the terminology
                                        with primary, secondary, and tertiary relics. There is not a
                                        relations of once, twice, or three times removed. There is one large
                                        kingdom that insists in its judging criteria to give different
                                        points for number of primary sources, secondary sources, and
                                        tertiary sources. They are flat wrong to do so and I have not been
                                        remiss in telling them that.
                                        >
                                        > It is better to go beyond any hangup with primary and secondary
                                        to "best available evidence critically examined."
                                        >
                                        > Charles O'Connor
                                        > (MKA J. Patrick Hughes, Ph.D.)
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