Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers

Expand Messages
  • Keith Crawley
    Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not Noble mention as such
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not Noble mention as such and this would lead me to think some at least were of common birth. It also mentions a name David Simson as a part of a unit of archers with no title or rank even further indicating probable common birth i should think. It also mentions a number in the region of 100 men total with an elite group of 25 and 74 archers although this seems to have been a bit later in the units history. .

      Baron Percival
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: John edgerton
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers


      Thank you.

      Jon

      On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Keith Crawley wrote:

      > Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%
      > 89cossaisethis seems to at least hint at the officers having been
      > noble.
      >
      > Baron Percival
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: John edgerton
      > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      > Cc: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:36 PM
      > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
      >
      > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
      > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
      > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
      >
      > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard being
      > nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer members of
      > the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they had
      > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
      > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
      >
      > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
      > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
      > noble birth?
      >
      > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
      > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
      > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
      > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
      > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
      > for those I have found so far.
      >
      > Thank you for any help you can give.
      >
      > Jon
      >
      > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn
      > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
      > cunning of mind.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • loreleiElkins@aol.com
      Jon, Please do share your information with us all here when you do complete your work. And, thank you for the undertaking. Lorelei In a message dated
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Jon,

        Please do share your information with us all here when you do complete your
        work. And, thank you for the undertaking.

        Lorelei

        In a message dated 12/4/2007 1:37:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        sirjon1@... writes:

        am trying to put together some documented information to help
        counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
        were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
        there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
        am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
        for those I have found so far.

        Thank you for any help you can give.

        Jon





        Lorelei



        **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
        products.
        (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • caleb@buffnet.net
        I checked through my library last night and could not find anything about nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his archers 6
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          I checked through my library last night and could not find anything about
          nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his
          archers 6 pennies a day for his first campaign into France, where Knights
          were paid 2 shillings a day. Barons were paid 4 shillings and higher
          ranking members of nobility were paid even more. If these rates were
          common across Europe, I don't think we will see any documentation of
          nobles being hired as archers: they would be paid more money to be hired
          at their rank. The increased money would cover horses, household members,
          armor, etc. I would imagine that while they did not fight major battles
          with bows or crossbows, the nobility might use them during a siege where
          they would have nothing else to do while artiliary and siege engines were
          working.

          I did find a refence to some archer nobility:

          "The Company of Scottish Archers was formed in 1676 and is possibly the
          oldest sporting body in Britain today. It was granted a royal charter by
          Queen Anne and drew its membership from the aristocracy, gentry and
          professional classes of Edinburgh. "
          http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/archers.html

          "Among Viking armies, however, even kings fought with bows. For example,
          at the great sea battle of Skold in 1000 AD, when Norwegian King Olav
          Trygvasson was cornered by his enemies and killed, during the long day's
          battle King Olav fought mostly from the raised rear quarterdeck of his
          great warship the Long Serpent, alternately throwing spears and shooting
          arrows at his attackers."
          http://www.strongbowsaga.com/showwik.asp?WikID=38

          "My point being that the archers, even at the low end, were paid
          specialists, not peasant levies. I haven't found a picture of an armored
          archer with his own arms(yet), but I'm working on it. When Henry II
          conquered Ireland, Richard de Clare, Earl of Pembroke (which Earldom was a
          traditional source of archer levies) had the epithet 'Strongbow', because
          he was reputed to draw the strongest bow in the kingdom. I find it hard to
          believe that he could get a name for his archery without using the bow a
          *lot*, and in war; clearly, it isn't improper for a nobleman to be an
          archer."
          http://www.florilegium.org/files/ARCHERY/archery-msg.html

          THL Caleb Reynolds
          Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
          King's Archery Champion


          > Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it
          > mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not
          > Noble mention as such and this would lead me to think some at least were
          > of common birth. It also mentions a name David Simson as a part of a
          > unit of archers with no title or rank even further indicating probable
          > common birth i should think. It also mentions a number in the region of
          > 100 men total with an elite group of 25 and 74 archers although this
          > seems to have been a bit later in the units history. .
          >
          > Baron Percival
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: John edgerton
          > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 PM
          > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
          >
          >
          > Thank you.
          >
          > Jon
          >
          > On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Keith Crawley wrote:
          >
          > > Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%
          > 89cossaisethis seems to at least hint at the officers having been
          > noble.
          > >
          > > Baron Percival
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: John edgerton
          > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          > > Cc: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:36 PM
          > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
          > >
          > > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
          > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
          > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
          > >
          > > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard
          > being nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer
          > members of the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they
          > had
          > > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
          > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
          > >
          > > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
          > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
          > noble birth?
          > >
          > > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
          > counter the misconception that all medieval european military
          > archers were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show
          > that there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble
          > class. I am looking for information for other countries and
          > additional sources for those I have found so far.
          > >
          > > Thank you for any help you can give.
          > >
          > > Jon
          > >
          > > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn
          > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
          > cunning of mind.
          > >
        • Keith Crawley
          Here is a link http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/templar.htm that puts an interesting Templar spin on things. Don t know what if any facts are drawn on by the
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Here is a link http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/templar.htm that puts an interesting Templar spin on things. Don't know what if any facts are drawn on by the author who ever it is but it sure makes for an interesting theory when tied in with other Scottish Templar beliefs/myths.

            Baron Percival



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Logan McKnight
            If you are doing research on the subject of noble archers, I strongly suggest you pick up The Great Warbow by Matthew Strickland and Robert Hardy. I am
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              If you are doing research on the subject of 'noble' archers, I
              strongly suggest you pick up 'The Great Warbow' by Matthew Strickland
              and Robert Hardy. I am reading it now and there is a very thorough
              chapter on the English Mounted Archer and the rise of the Archer in
              social status and social mobility.

              While it does show a large number of recruited archers from the
              common folk, what it indicates is a growing trend that capable
              archers could ascend the social ladder, becoming minor gentry in the
              process.

              There are also two or three sections on Scottish Archery that may
              help with background on the Scottish forces serving in France, as
              well as in their homeland. It also has an interesting argument,
              backed up with archaeological finds as well as documents from the
              period that indicate William Wallace as being a formidable archer,
              and the longbow being his prefered weapon. They have even found
              Wallace's seal which bears a bow and arrow, lending support to their
              argument.

              Also, are you familiar with the 'Jodrell Pass'? Again this is
              English but you said your research extended beyond that Scottish
              unit. The Jodrell pass was a document of passage bearing Edward, the
              Black Prince's personal seal, allowing a mounted archer named Jodrell
              passage home to england. What this pass indicates to historians is
              that the archers of higher standing were very well thought of and
              afforded the same luxuries and respect as many of the knights/men-at-
              arms.

              All of these things are discussed in 'the Great Warbow' and the
              bibliography of that book contains an incredibly deep well of other
              sources to pour over. Good luck in your research, I look forward to
              perhaps hearing mroe about it.

              Godfrey McKnight, the Archer
            • John edgerton
              Around 25 to 100 depending upon the time period. The nobility in the guard would not have been the ruling nobility, just the sons or other relatives. Jon ...
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Around 25 to 100 depending upon the time period. The nobility in the
                guard would not have been the ruling nobility, just the sons or other
                relatives.

                Jon

                On Dec 4, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Keith Crawley wrote:

                > How many bodies were in the Garde at any one time? If this was a
                > small personal body guard one could expect perhaps a couple hundred
                > at best and these sorts of numbers could certainly have come from
                > the Scottish Nobility with little impact on Scotland herself.
                > However if this was a regimental or larger sized unit the sheer
                > numbers would lead one to think some at least must have been common
                > soldiers. If it was totally made up of Nobles who was left back in
                > Scotland to run things. At this time in History what would
                > Scotland's population have been and a better question how many
                > Noble families were there to feed such a machine fresh bodies on a
                > regular basis as they were killed off in some of the battles? It
                > isn't the proof you seek but I'm thinking unless this was a very
                > small elite unit that it would by necessity have to be made up of
                > nobles as officers and common soldiers filling out the rank and file.
                >
                > Baron Percival
                > Baron of Septentria
                > Archer Champion to TRM Trumbrand and Kayla Rex et Regina Ealdormere
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John edgerton
                I intend to post it here when it is done and also put it in the files section. Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  I intend to post it here when it is done and also put it in the files
                  section.

                  Jon

                  On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:14 AM, loreleiElkins@... wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Jon,
                  >
                  > Please do share your information with us all here when you do
                  > complete your
                  > work. And, thank you for the undertaking.
                  >
                  > Lorelei
                  >
                  > In a message dated 12/4/2007 1:37:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  > sirjon1@... writes:
                  >
                  > am trying to put together some documented information to help
                  > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
                  > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
                  > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
                  > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
                  > for those I have found so far.
                  >
                  > Thank you for any help you can give.
                  >
                  > Jon
                  >
                  > Lorelei
                  >
                  > **************************************Check out AOL's list of
                  > 2007's hottest
                  > products.
                  > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?
                  > NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John edgerton
                  The Garde Écossaise were not just a company of archers they were part of the kings personal guard and it seems were in attendance on him at times other than
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The Garde Écossaise were not just a company of archers they were part
                    of the kings personal guard and it seems were in attendance on him at
                    times other than in battle. Such duties would suggest they would
                    have been mainly of nobel birth and not just commoners.

                    Jon

                    On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:33 AM, <caleb@...> <caleb@...>
                    wrote:

                    > I checked through my library last night and could not find anything
                    > about
                    > nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his
                    > archers 6 pennies a day for his first campaign into France, where
                    > Knights
                    > were paid 2 shillings a day. Barons were paid 4 shillings and higher
                    > ranking members of nobility were paid even more. If these rates were
                    > common across Europe, I don't think we will see any documentation of
                    > nobles being hired as archers: they would be paid more money to be
                    > hired
                    > at their rank. The increased money would cover horses, household
                    > members,
                    > armor, etc. I would imagine that while they did not fight major
                    > battles
                    > with bows or crossbows, the nobility might use them during a siege
                    > where
                    > they would have nothing else to do while artiliary and siege
                    > engines were
                    > working.
                    >
                    > I did find a refence to some archer nobility:
                    >
                    > "The Company of Scottish Archers was formed in 1676 and is possibly
                    > the
                    > oldest sporting body in Britain today. It was granted a royal
                    > charter by
                    > Queen Anne and drew its membership from the aristocracy, gentry and
                    > professional classes of Edinburgh. "
                    > http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/archers.html
                    >
                    > "Among Viking armies, however, even kings fought with bows. For
                    > example,
                    > at the great sea battle of Skold in 1000 AD, when Norwegian King Olav
                    > Trygvasson was cornered by his enemies and killed, during the long
                    > day's
                    > battle King Olav fought mostly from the raised rear quarterdeck of his
                    > great warship the Long Serpent, alternately throwing spears and
                    > shooting
                    > arrows at his attackers."
                    > http://www.strongbowsaga.com/showwik.asp?WikID=38
                    >
                    > "My point being that the archers, even at the low end, were paid
                    > specialists, not peasant levies. I haven't found a picture of an
                    > armored
                    > archer with his own arms(yet), but I'm working on it. When Henry II
                    > conquered Ireland, Richard de Clare, Earl of Pembroke (which
                    > Earldom was a
                    > traditional source of archer levies) had the epithet 'Strongbow',
                    > because
                    > he was reputed to draw the strongest bow in the kingdom. I find it
                    > hard to
                    > believe that he could get a name for his archery without using the
                    > bow a
                    > *lot*, and in war; clearly, it isn't improper for a nobleman to be an
                    > archer."
                    > http://www.florilegium.org/files/ARCHERY/archery-msg.html
                    >
                    > THL Caleb Reynolds
                    > Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
                    > King's Archery Champion


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • mark s graves
                    i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing and maybe
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                      have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing
                      and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                      this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                    • John edgerton
                      At this point, no idea. Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        At this point, no idea.

                        Jon
                        On Dec 6, 2007, at 11:11 AM, mark s graves wrote:

                        > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards.
                        > Where
                        > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                        > wearing
                        > and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                        > this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Rusty McMillan
                        William, I m in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under Joan of Arc ,
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          William,

                          I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be
                          coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under "Joan
                          of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde Ecossaise".
                          Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you
                          should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this
                          thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until much
                          later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.

                          Randal of Camusfearna

                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, mark s graves <williamross3@...>
                          wrote:

                          i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                          have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                          wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish
                          and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                        • ronan mackee
                          Hello When I was doing research on archers I came across information on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of these duties was
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello

                            When I was doing research on archers I came across information on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the king correct ?



                            the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free encyclopedia web sight under yeoman



                            I hope this helps

                            Ronan Mackay




                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Rusty McMillan <randal_of_camusfearna@...>
                            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 2:17:59 PM
                            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers














                            William,



                            I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be

                            coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under "Joan

                            of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde Ecossaise".

                            Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you

                            should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this

                            thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until much

                            later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.



                            Randal of Camusfearna



                            --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, mark s graves <williamross3@ ...>

                            wrote:



                            i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where

                            have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were

                            wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish

                            and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye














                            <!--

                            #ygrp-mkp{
                            border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;}
                            #ygrp-mkp hr{
                            border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
                            #ygrp-mkp #hd{
                            color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;}
                            #ygrp-mkp #ads{
                            margin-bottom:10px;}
                            #ygrp-mkp .ad{
                            padding:0 0;}
                            #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
                            color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
                            -->



                            <!--

                            #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
                            font-family:Arial;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
                            margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
                            margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
                            -->



                            <!--

                            #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
                            #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
                            #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
                            #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                            #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
                            #ygrp-text{
                            font-family:Georgia;
                            }
                            #ygrp-text p{
                            margin:0 0 1em 0;}
                            #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                            font-family:Arial;
                            clear:both;}
                            #ygrp-vitnav{
                            padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}
                            #ygrp-vitnav a{
                            padding:0 1px;}
                            #ygrp-actbar{
                            clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;}
                            #ygrp-actbar .left{
                            float:left;white-space:nowrap;}
                            .bld{font-weight:bold;}
                            #ygrp-grft{
                            font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}
                            #ygrp-ft{
                            font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;
                            padding:5px 0;
                            }
                            #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                            padding-bottom:10px;}

                            #ygrp-vital{
                            background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
                            #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                            font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:uppercase;}
                            #ygrp-vital ul{
                            padding:0;margin:2px 0;}
                            #ygrp-vital ul li{
                            list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;
                            }
                            #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                            font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.5em;}
                            #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                            font-weight:bold;}
                            #ygrp-vital a{
                            text-decoration:none;}

                            #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                            text-decoration:underline;}

                            #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                            color:#999;font-size:77%;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                            padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                            padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                            list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                            text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
                            background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                            padding:8px 0;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                            font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                            text-decoration:none;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                            text-decoration:underline;}
                            #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                            margin:0;}
                            o{font-size:0;}
                            .MsoNormal{
                            margin:0 0 0 0;}
                            #ygrp-text tt{
                            font-size:120%;}
                            blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
                            .replbq{margin:4;}
                            -->








                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                            http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John edgerton
                            Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The Scottish Guard of Archers,
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott
                              might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The
                              Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect
                              and serve the king of France.

                              Jon

                              On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:

                              > Hello
                              >
                              > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on
                              > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of
                              > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my
                              > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman
                              > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the
                              > king correct ?
                              >
                              > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free
                              > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman
                              >
                              > I hope this helps
                              >
                              > Ronan Mackay


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • ronan mackee
                              Thanks for clearing that up for me Ronan ... From: John edgerton To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thanks for clearing that up for me


                                Ronan

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: John edgerton <sirjon1@...>
                                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15 PM
                                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers














                                Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott

                                might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The

                                Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect

                                and serve the king of France.



                                Jon



                                On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:



                                > Hello

                                >

                                > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on

                                > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of

                                > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my

                                > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman

                                > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the

                                > king correct ?

                                >

                                > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free

                                > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman

                                >

                                > I hope this helps

                                >

                                > Ronan Mackay



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














                                <!--

                                #ygrp-mkp{
                                border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;}
                                #ygrp-mkp hr{
                                border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
                                #ygrp-mkp #hd{
                                color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;}
                                #ygrp-mkp #ads{
                                margin-bottom:10px;}
                                #ygrp-mkp .ad{
                                padding:0 0;}
                                #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
                                color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
                                -->



                                <!--

                                #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
                                font-family:Arial;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
                                margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
                                margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
                                -->



                                <!--

                                #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
                                #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
                                #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
                                #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                                #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
                                #ygrp-text{
                                font-family:Georgia;
                                }
                                #ygrp-text p{
                                margin:0 0 1em 0;}
                                #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                                font-family:Arial;
                                clear:both;}
                                #ygrp-vitnav{
                                padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}
                                #ygrp-vitnav a{
                                padding:0 1px;}
                                #ygrp-actbar{
                                clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;}
                                #ygrp-actbar .left{
                                float:left;white-space:nowrap;}
                                .bld{font-weight:bold;}
                                #ygrp-grft{
                                font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}
                                #ygrp-ft{
                                font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;
                                padding:5px 0;
                                }
                                #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                                padding-bottom:10px;}

                                #ygrp-vital{
                                background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
                                #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                                font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:uppercase;}
                                #ygrp-vital ul{
                                padding:0;margin:2px 0;}
                                #ygrp-vital ul li{
                                list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;
                                }
                                #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                                font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.5em;}
                                #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                                font-weight:bold;}
                                #ygrp-vital a{
                                text-decoration:none;}

                                #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                                text-decoration:underline;}

                                #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                                color:#999;font-size:77%;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                                padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                                padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                                list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                                text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
                                background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                                padding:8px 0;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                                font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                                text-decoration:none;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                                text-decoration:underline;}
                                #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                                margin:0;}
                                o{font-size:0;}
                                .MsoNormal{
                                margin:0 0 0 0;}
                                #ygrp-text tt{
                                font-size:120%;}
                                blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
                                .replbq{margin:4;}
                                -->








                                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Edward deWitt
                                FWIW Check the link out. It doesn t have anything to do with the Archery Guard, but it has mention of the Scots Archers during the fight for Independence(
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  FWIW

                                  Check the link out. It doesn't have anything to do with the Archery Guard, but it has mention of the Scots Archers during the fight for Independence( Wallace and Bruce era). It refers to the Battle of Rosslyn, 1303.

                                  http://sinclair.quarterman.org/history/med/battleofrosslyn.html

                                  Edward

                                  gene

                                  ronan mackee <ronanmackee@...> wrote: Thanks for clearing that up for me

                                  Ronan

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: John edgerton <sirjon1@...>
                                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers

                                  Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott

                                  might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The

                                  Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect

                                  and serve the king of France.

                                  Jon

                                  On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:

                                  > Hello

                                  >

                                  > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on

                                  > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of

                                  > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my

                                  > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman

                                  > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the

                                  > king correct ?

                                  >

                                  > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free

                                  > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman

                                  >

                                  > I hope this helps

                                  >

                                  > Ronan Mackay

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  <!--

                                  #ygrp-mkp{
                                  border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;}
                                  #ygrp-mkp hr{
                                  border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
                                  #ygrp-mkp #hd{
                                  color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;}
                                  #ygrp-mkp #ads{
                                  margin-bottom:10px;}
                                  #ygrp-mkp .ad{
                                  padding:0 0;}
                                  #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
                                  color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
                                  -->

                                  <!--

                                  #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
                                  font-family:Arial;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
                                  margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
                                  margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
                                  -->

                                  <!--

                                  #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
                                  #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
                                  #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
                                  #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                                  #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
                                  #ygrp-text{
                                  font-family:Georgia;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-text p{
                                  margin:0 0 1em 0;}
                                  #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                                  font-family:Arial;
                                  clear:both;}
                                  #ygrp-vitnav{
                                  padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}
                                  #ygrp-vitnav a{
                                  padding:0 1px;}
                                  #ygrp-actbar{
                                  clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;}
                                  #ygrp-actbar .left{
                                  float:left;white-space:nowrap;}
                                  .bld{font-weight:bold;}
                                  #ygrp-grft{
                                  font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}
                                  #ygrp-ft{
                                  font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;
                                  padding:5px 0;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                                  padding-bottom:10px;}

                                  #ygrp-vital{
                                  background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
                                  #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                                  font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:uppercase;}
                                  #ygrp-vital ul{
                                  padding:0;margin:2px 0;}
                                  #ygrp-vital ul li{
                                  list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                                  font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.5em;}
                                  #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                                  font-weight:bold;}
                                  #ygrp-vital a{
                                  text-decoration:none;}

                                  #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                                  text-decoration:underline;}

                                  #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                                  color:#999;font-size:77%;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                                  padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                                  padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                                  list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                                  text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
                                  background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                                  padding:8px 0;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                                  font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                                  text-decoration:none;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                                  text-decoration:underline;}
                                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                                  margin:0;}
                                  o{font-size:0;}
                                  .MsoNormal{
                                  margin:0 0 0 0;}
                                  #ygrp-text tt{
                                  font-size:120%;}
                                  blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
                                  .replbq{margin:4;}
                                  -->

                                  __________________________________________________________
                                  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                  http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                  ---------------------------------
                                  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • arturdubh
                                  I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split my time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the Scottish Garde
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split my
                                    time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the
                                    Scottish Garde couldn't be made up of at least "minor nobility"
                                    (perhaps even the "extra" sons of the higher nobility - those who
                                    wouldn't other-wise have much chance to "prove" themselves). Would a
                                    King really be able to trust a mere commoner with his life -- and
                                    would he want to? It was a different time, with a different mind-
                                    set....

                                    Also, it is never wise to trust Wkipedia as your primary source of
                                    information. Always check out any and all reference links provided in
                                    Wikipedia articles; some people like to add little "surprises" to
                                    those Wikipedia entries -- I nearly got burned by one of
                                    those "surprises" when I foolishly copy/pasted a portion of a
                                    Wikipedia article.

                                    --Artúr


                                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, ronan mackee <ronanmackee@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello
                                    >
                                    > When I was doing research on archers I came across information
                                    on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of
                                    these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my
                                    question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman
                                    because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the king
                                    correct ?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the
                                    free encyclopedia web sight under yeoman
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I hope this helps
                                    >
                                    > Ronan Mackay
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: Rusty McMillan <randal_of_camusfearna@...>
                                    > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 2:17:59 PM
                                    > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > William,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be
                                    >
                                    > coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches
                                    under "Joan
                                    >
                                    > of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde
                                    Ecossaise".
                                    >
                                    > Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you
                                    >
                                    > should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this
                                    >
                                    > thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until
                                    much
                                    >
                                    > later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Randal of Camusfearna
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, mark s graves
                                    <williamross3@ ...>
                                    >
                                    > wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards.
                                    Where
                                    >
                                    > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                                    >
                                    > wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am
                                    Scottish
                                    >
                                    > and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <!--
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-mkp{
                                    > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px
                                    0px;padding:0px 14px;}
                                    > #ygrp-mkp hr{
                                    > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
                                    > #ygrp-mkp #hd{
                                    > color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-
                                    height:122%;margin:10px 0px;}
                                    > #ygrp-mkp #ads{
                                    > margin-bottom:10px;}
                                    > #ygrp-mkp .ad{
                                    > padding:0 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
                                    > color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
                                    > -->
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <!--
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
                                    > font-family:Arial;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
                                    > margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
                                    > margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
                                    > -->
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <!--
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean,
                                    sans-serif;}
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica,
                                    clean, sans-serif;}
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
                                    > #ygrp-text{
                                    > font-family:Georgia;
                                    > }
                                    > #ygrp-text p{
                                    > margin:0 0 1em 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                                    > font-family:Arial;
                                    > clear:both;}
                                    > #ygrp-vitnav{
                                    > padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}
                                    > #ygrp-vitnav a{
                                    > padding:0 1px;}
                                    > #ygrp-actbar{
                                    > clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-
                                    align:right;}
                                    > #ygrp-actbar .left{
                                    > float:left;white-space:nowrap;}
                                    > .bld{font-weight:bold;}
                                    > #ygrp-grft{
                                    > font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-ft{
                                    > font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;
                                    > padding:5px 0;
                                    > }
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                                    > padding-bottom:10px;}
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-vital{
                                    > background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
                                    > #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                                    > font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-
                                    transform:uppercase;}
                                    > #ygrp-vital ul{
                                    > padding:0;margin:2px 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-vital ul li{
                                    > list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;
                                    > }
                                    > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                                    > font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-
                                    align:right;padding-right:.5em;}
                                    > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                                    > font-weight:bold;}
                                    > #ygrp-vital a{
                                    > text-decoration:none;}
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                                    > text-decoration:underline;}
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                                    > color:#999;font-size:77%;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                                    > padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                                    > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                                    > list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                                    > text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
                                    > background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                                    > padding:8px 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                                    > font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-
                                    size:100%;line-height:122%;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                                    > text-decoration:none;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                                    > text-decoration:underline;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                                    > margin:0;}
                                    > o{font-size:0;}
                                    > .MsoNormal{
                                    > margin:0 0 0 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-text tt{
                                    > font-size:120%;}
                                    > blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
                                    > .replbq{margin:4;}
                                    > -->
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ______________________________________________________________________
                                    ______________
                                    > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                    > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • jameswolfden
                                    In The Great Warbow by Strickland and Hardy, there is picture of Charles VII and the Garde Ecossaise by Jean Fouquet from The Hours of Etienne Chevalier. Here
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      In The Great Warbow by Strickland and Hardy, there is picture of Charles VII and the Garde
                                      Ecossaise by Jean Fouquet from The Hours of Etienne Chevalier. Here is an online link to
                                      the same picture.

                                      http://expositions.bnf.fr/fouquet/grand/f068.htm

                                      We are also given this description attributed to Berry Herald in Narratives of the Expulsion
                                      of the English from Normandy:

                                      "And before them, in the first rank, were the archers of the King of France, all clad in
                                      jackets covered with gold embroidery, of the colour of red, white, and green."

                                      In Service,
                                      James Wolfden


                                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, mark s graves <williamross3@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                                      > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing
                                      > and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                                      > this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                      >
                                    • rolf_hobart
                                      To answer your questions, Yes and Yes. As an example I m summarizing Strickland in The Great Warbow page 258. Richard II maintained a personal bodyguard of
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 7, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        To answer your questions, Yes and Yes.
                                        As an example I'm summarizing Strickland in "The Great Warbow" page
                                        258. Richard II maintained a personal bodyguard of Cheshire yeoman
                                        archers. His familiarity with them, and their subsequent uppity and
                                        thuggish behavior caused them to be unpopular with the English
                                        nobility and provided Henry Bolingbroke another justification for his
                                        insurrection.

                                        Rolf Hobart

                                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "arturdubh" <nasionnaich@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split
                                        my
                                        > time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the
                                        > Scottish Garde couldn't be made up of at least "minor nobility"
                                        > (perhaps even the "extra" sons of the higher nobility - those who
                                        > wouldn't other-wise have much chance to "prove" themselves). Would
                                        a
                                        > King really be able to trust a mere commoner with his life -- and
                                        > would he want to? It was a different time, with a different mind-
                                        > set....
                                        >
                                        > Also, it is never wise to trust Wkipedia as your primary source of
                                        > information. Always check out any and all reference links provided
                                        in
                                        > Wikipedia articles; some people like to add little "surprises" to
                                        > those Wikipedia entries -- I nearly got burned by one of
                                        > those "surprises" when I foolishly copy/pasted a portion of a
                                        > Wikipedia article.
                                        >
                                        > --Artúr
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • John edgerton
                                        I would recommend the Great Warbow to anyone looking for a good source of medieval archery information. I may use some of the information rise of the archers
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 7, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I would recommend "the Great Warbow" to anyone looking for a good
                                          source of medieval archery information.

                                          I may use some of the information rise of the archers status if I
                                          decide to expand the scope of my article.

                                          Jon

                                          On Dec 5, 2007, at 10:45 AM, Logan McKnight wrote:

                                          > If you are doing research on the subject of 'noble' archers, I
                                          > strongly suggest you pick up 'The Great Warbow' by Matthew Strickland
                                          > and Robert Hardy. I am reading it now and there is a very thorough
                                          > chapter on the English Mounted Archer and the rise of the Archer in
                                          > social status and social mobility.
                                          >
                                          > While it does show a large number of recruited archers from the
                                          > common folk, what it indicates is a growing trend that capable
                                          > archers could ascend the social ladder, becoming minor gentry in the
                                          > process.
                                          >
                                          > There are also two or three sections on Scottish Archery that may
                                          > help with background on the Scottish forces serving in France, as
                                          > well as in their homeland. It also has an interesting argument,
                                          > backed up with archaeological finds as well as documents from the
                                          > period that indicate William Wallace as being a formidable archer,
                                          > and the longbow being his prefered weapon. They have even found
                                          > Wallace's seal which bears a bow and arrow, lending support to their
                                          > argument.
                                          >
                                          > Also, are you familiar with the 'Jodrell Pass'? Again this is
                                          > English but you said your research extended beyond that Scottish
                                          > unit. The Jodrell pass was a document of passage bearing Edward, the
                                          > Black Prince's personal seal, allowing a mounted archer named Jodrell
                                          > passage home to england. What this pass indicates to historians is
                                          > that the archers of higher standing were very well thought of and
                                          > afforded the same luxuries and respect as many of the knights/men-at-
                                          > arms.
                                          >
                                          > All of these things are discussed in 'the Great Warbow' and the
                                          > bibliography of that book contains an incredibly deep well of other
                                          > sources to pour over. Good luck in your research, I look forward to
                                          > perhaps hearing mroe about it.
                                          >
                                          > Godfrey McKnight, the Archer
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • J. Hughes
                                          The disertation was done in 1972 and has 423 pages. But my sources do not list who has it or what institution it was done for. I am sure the article is a
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            The disertation was done in 1972 and has 423 pages. But my sources do not list who has it or what institution it was done for. I am sure the article is a watered down version.

                                            Charles O'Connor


                                            ----- Original Message ----
                                            From: Bruce <obsidian@...>
                                            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:20:26 PM
                                            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers

                                            Greetings

                                            Well... dunno if it's the same document, but there is this:

                                            Richard II's Archers of the Crown
                                            James L. Gillespie
                                            The Journal of British Studies, Vol. 18, No. 2 (Spring, 1979), pp. 14-
                                            29

                                            I hasten to add that I don't have a copy of this myself, but I do
                                            have the reference, so anyone with access to this journal might look
                                            it up?

                                            Nigel

                                            --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@.. .>
                                            wrote:

                                            >
                                            > I have been cursing myself for letting this slip past me but:
                                            years ago,
                                            > while beginning my researching of archers, I came across a listing
                                            in I
                                            > think was Dissertated Abstracts international, which was a
                                            collection of
                                            > Masters and PHD theses. The interesting one was titled "The
                                            Cheshire Archers
                                            > of Richard II and the creation of Bastard Feudalism". At the time
                                            (the late
                                            > 80s) I didn't think it worth the $35.00 to pay for this. I have
                                            since been
                                            > unable to try to find this again. This might be worth looking into
                                            for this
                                            > project. I keep intending to look for this again, as well as any
                                            theses on
                                            > medieval banner construction.
                                            > Ancel





                                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                            Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                            Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • runewald
                                            On Dec 11, 2007, at 12:44 PM, J. Hughes ... Just because....I Googled for The Journal of British Studies and got a list of hits. It is possible to access
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              On Dec 11, 2007, at 12:44 PM, J. Hughes ...

                                              Just because....I Googled for "The Journal of British Studies" and got
                                              a list of hits. It is possible to access the various volumes, but
                                              appears you need a Library which has an account. I would suspect that
                                              most University Libraries have accounts.

                                              Just a thought....

                                              Lord Robert Runewald
                                              Barony of Lochmere
                                              Kingdom of Atlantia
                                              >



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Edward deWitt
                                              This isn t specific to the Scottish Archer Guard , but it does deal with Scots nobility as archers in late 1500s
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                This isn't specific to the Scottish Archer Guard , but it does deal with Scots nobility as archers in late 1500s

                                                http://www.electricscotland.com/history/genhist/hist35.html


                                                ---------------------------------
                                                Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.