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Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers

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  • John edgerton
    I am familiar with the English and other European nobles of varying degree using archery for sport and recreation. That is well documented. However, what I
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
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      I am familiar with the English and other European nobles of varying
      degree using archery for sport and recreation. That is well
      documented. However, what I am trying to locate are sources for use
      of archery by the nobel class for military purposes.

      Jon
      On Dec 4, 2007, at 12:54 PM, <caleb@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > I do not know about Scotland, but in England pretty much everyone from
      > villein to the king praticed archery. I'm almost done reading
      > "Agincourt:
      > Henry V and the Battle That Made England" by Juliet Barker. She
      > documents
      > that Henry V was a good archer, as were his brothers and his
      > father, Henry
      > IV, before him. She also says that the books of chivalry, the "Dummy's
      > Guide to Being a Knight," that were written for English knights and
      > nobility spoke of archery lessons and one particular one written in
      > France
      > said that if one wished to learn archery, "go to England." I don't
      > have
      > the book in front of me otherwise I would give the reference.
      >
      > THL Caleb Reynolds
      > Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
      > King's Archery Champion
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Keith Crawley
      How many bodies were in the Garde at any one time? If this was a small personal body guard one could expect perhaps a couple hundred at best and these sorts of
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
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        How many bodies were in the Garde at any one time? If this was a small personal body guard one could expect perhaps a couple hundred at best and these sorts of numbers could certainly have come from the Scottish Nobility with little impact on Scotland herself. However if this was a regimental or larger sized unit the sheer numbers would lead one to think some at least must have been common soldiers. If it was totally made up of Nobles who was left back in Scotland to run things. At this time in History what would Scotland's population have been and a better question how many Noble families were there to feed such a machine fresh bodies on a regular basis as they were killed off in some of the battles? It isn't the proof you seek but I'm thinking unless this was a very small elite unit that it would by necessity have to be made up of nobles as officers and common soldiers filling out the rank and file.

        Baron Percival
        Baron of Septentria
        Archer Champion to TRM Trumbrand and Kayla Rex et Regina Ealdormere




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Keith Crawley
        Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not Noble mention as such
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
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          Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not Noble mention as such and this would lead me to think some at least were of common birth. It also mentions a name David Simson as a part of a unit of archers with no title or rank even further indicating probable common birth i should think. It also mentions a number in the region of 100 men total with an elite group of 25 and 74 archers although this seems to have been a bit later in the units history. .

          Baron Percival
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: John edgerton
          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 PM
          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers


          Thank you.

          Jon

          On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Keith Crawley wrote:

          > Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%
          > 89cossaisethis seems to at least hint at the officers having been
          > noble.
          >
          > Baron Percival
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: John edgerton
          > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          > Cc: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:36 PM
          > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
          >
          > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
          > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
          > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
          >
          > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard being
          > nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer members of
          > the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they had
          > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
          > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
          >
          > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
          > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
          > noble birth?
          >
          > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
          > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
          > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
          > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
          > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
          > for those I have found so far.
          >
          > Thank you for any help you can give.
          >
          > Jon
          >
          > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn
          > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
          > cunning of mind.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • loreleiElkins@aol.com
          Jon, Please do share your information with us all here when you do complete your work. And, thank you for the undertaking. Lorelei In a message dated
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
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            Jon,

            Please do share your information with us all here when you do complete your
            work. And, thank you for the undertaking.

            Lorelei

            In a message dated 12/4/2007 1:37:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            sirjon1@... writes:

            am trying to put together some documented information to help
            counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
            were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
            there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
            am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
            for those I have found so far.

            Thank you for any help you can give.

            Jon





            Lorelei



            **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
            products.
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • caleb@buffnet.net
            I checked through my library last night and could not find anything about nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his archers 6
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
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              I checked through my library last night and could not find anything about
              nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his
              archers 6 pennies a day for his first campaign into France, where Knights
              were paid 2 shillings a day. Barons were paid 4 shillings and higher
              ranking members of nobility were paid even more. If these rates were
              common across Europe, I don't think we will see any documentation of
              nobles being hired as archers: they would be paid more money to be hired
              at their rank. The increased money would cover horses, household members,
              armor, etc. I would imagine that while they did not fight major battles
              with bows or crossbows, the nobility might use them during a siege where
              they would have nothing else to do while artiliary and siege engines were
              working.

              I did find a refence to some archer nobility:

              "The Company of Scottish Archers was formed in 1676 and is possibly the
              oldest sporting body in Britain today. It was granted a royal charter by
              Queen Anne and drew its membership from the aristocracy, gentry and
              professional classes of Edinburgh. "
              http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/archers.html

              "Among Viking armies, however, even kings fought with bows. For example,
              at the great sea battle of Skold in 1000 AD, when Norwegian King Olav
              Trygvasson was cornered by his enemies and killed, during the long day's
              battle King Olav fought mostly from the raised rear quarterdeck of his
              great warship the Long Serpent, alternately throwing spears and shooting
              arrows at his attackers."
              http://www.strongbowsaga.com/showwik.asp?WikID=38

              "My point being that the archers, even at the low end, were paid
              specialists, not peasant levies. I haven't found a picture of an armored
              archer with his own arms(yet), but I'm working on it. When Henry II
              conquered Ireland, Richard de Clare, Earl of Pembroke (which Earldom was a
              traditional source of archer levies) had the epithet 'Strongbow', because
              he was reputed to draw the strongest bow in the kingdom. I find it hard to
              believe that he could get a name for his archery without using the bow a
              *lot*, and in war; clearly, it isn't improper for a nobleman to be an
              archer."
              http://www.florilegium.org/files/ARCHERY/archery-msg.html

              THL Caleb Reynolds
              Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
              King's Archery Champion


              > Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it
              > mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not
              > Noble mention as such and this would lead me to think some at least were
              > of common birth. It also mentions a name David Simson as a part of a
              > unit of archers with no title or rank even further indicating probable
              > common birth i should think. It also mentions a number in the region of
              > 100 men total with an elite group of 25 and 74 archers although this
              > seems to have been a bit later in the units history. .
              >
              > Baron Percival
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: John edgerton
              > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 PM
              > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
              >
              >
              > Thank you.
              >
              > Jon
              >
              > On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Keith Crawley wrote:
              >
              > > Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%
              > 89cossaisethis seems to at least hint at the officers having been
              > noble.
              > >
              > > Baron Percival
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: John edgerton
              > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              > > Cc: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:36 PM
              > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
              > >
              > > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
              > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
              > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
              > >
              > > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard
              > being nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer
              > members of the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they
              > had
              > > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
              > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
              > >
              > > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
              > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
              > noble birth?
              > >
              > > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
              > counter the misconception that all medieval european military
              > archers were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show
              > that there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble
              > class. I am looking for information for other countries and
              > additional sources for those I have found so far.
              > >
              > > Thank you for any help you can give.
              > >
              > > Jon
              > >
              > > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn
              > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
              > cunning of mind.
              > >
            • Keith Crawley
              Here is a link http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/templar.htm that puts an interesting Templar spin on things. Don t know what if any facts are drawn on by the
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
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                Here is a link http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/templar.htm that puts an interesting Templar spin on things. Don't know what if any facts are drawn on by the author who ever it is but it sure makes for an interesting theory when tied in with other Scottish Templar beliefs/myths.

                Baron Percival



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Logan McKnight
                If you are doing research on the subject of noble archers, I strongly suggest you pick up The Great Warbow by Matthew Strickland and Robert Hardy. I am
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
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                  If you are doing research on the subject of 'noble' archers, I
                  strongly suggest you pick up 'The Great Warbow' by Matthew Strickland
                  and Robert Hardy. I am reading it now and there is a very thorough
                  chapter on the English Mounted Archer and the rise of the Archer in
                  social status and social mobility.

                  While it does show a large number of recruited archers from the
                  common folk, what it indicates is a growing trend that capable
                  archers could ascend the social ladder, becoming minor gentry in the
                  process.

                  There are also two or three sections on Scottish Archery that may
                  help with background on the Scottish forces serving in France, as
                  well as in their homeland. It also has an interesting argument,
                  backed up with archaeological finds as well as documents from the
                  period that indicate William Wallace as being a formidable archer,
                  and the longbow being his prefered weapon. They have even found
                  Wallace's seal which bears a bow and arrow, lending support to their
                  argument.

                  Also, are you familiar with the 'Jodrell Pass'? Again this is
                  English but you said your research extended beyond that Scottish
                  unit. The Jodrell pass was a document of passage bearing Edward, the
                  Black Prince's personal seal, allowing a mounted archer named Jodrell
                  passage home to england. What this pass indicates to historians is
                  that the archers of higher standing were very well thought of and
                  afforded the same luxuries and respect as many of the knights/men-at-
                  arms.

                  All of these things are discussed in 'the Great Warbow' and the
                  bibliography of that book contains an incredibly deep well of other
                  sources to pour over. Good luck in your research, I look forward to
                  perhaps hearing mroe about it.

                  Godfrey McKnight, the Archer
                • John edgerton
                  Around 25 to 100 depending upon the time period. The nobility in the guard would not have been the ruling nobility, just the sons or other relatives. Jon ...
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                    Around 25 to 100 depending upon the time period. The nobility in the
                    guard would not have been the ruling nobility, just the sons or other
                    relatives.

                    Jon

                    On Dec 4, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Keith Crawley wrote:

                    > How many bodies were in the Garde at any one time? If this was a
                    > small personal body guard one could expect perhaps a couple hundred
                    > at best and these sorts of numbers could certainly have come from
                    > the Scottish Nobility with little impact on Scotland herself.
                    > However if this was a regimental or larger sized unit the sheer
                    > numbers would lead one to think some at least must have been common
                    > soldiers. If it was totally made up of Nobles who was left back in
                    > Scotland to run things. At this time in History what would
                    > Scotland's population have been and a better question how many
                    > Noble families were there to feed such a machine fresh bodies on a
                    > regular basis as they were killed off in some of the battles? It
                    > isn't the proof you seek but I'm thinking unless this was a very
                    > small elite unit that it would by necessity have to be made up of
                    > nobles as officers and common soldiers filling out the rank and file.
                    >
                    > Baron Percival
                    > Baron of Septentria
                    > Archer Champion to TRM Trumbrand and Kayla Rex et Regina Ealdormere
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • John edgerton
                    I intend to post it here when it is done and also put it in the files section. Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                      I intend to post it here when it is done and also put it in the files
                      section.

                      Jon

                      On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:14 AM, loreleiElkins@... wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > Jon,
                      >
                      > Please do share your information with us all here when you do
                      > complete your
                      > work. And, thank you for the undertaking.
                      >
                      > Lorelei
                      >
                      > In a message dated 12/4/2007 1:37:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      > sirjon1@... writes:
                      >
                      > am trying to put together some documented information to help
                      > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
                      > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
                      > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
                      > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
                      > for those I have found so far.
                      >
                      > Thank you for any help you can give.
                      >
                      > Jon
                      >
                      > Lorelei
                      >
                      > **************************************Check out AOL's list of
                      > 2007's hottest
                      > products.
                      > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?
                      > NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John edgerton
                      The Garde Écossaise were not just a company of archers they were part of the kings personal guard and it seems were in attendance on him at times other than
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                        The Garde Écossaise were not just a company of archers they were part
                        of the kings personal guard and it seems were in attendance on him at
                        times other than in battle. Such duties would suggest they would
                        have been mainly of nobel birth and not just commoners.

                        Jon

                        On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:33 AM, <caleb@...> <caleb@...>
                        wrote:

                        > I checked through my library last night and could not find anything
                        > about
                        > nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his
                        > archers 6 pennies a day for his first campaign into France, where
                        > Knights
                        > were paid 2 shillings a day. Barons were paid 4 shillings and higher
                        > ranking members of nobility were paid even more. If these rates were
                        > common across Europe, I don't think we will see any documentation of
                        > nobles being hired as archers: they would be paid more money to be
                        > hired
                        > at their rank. The increased money would cover horses, household
                        > members,
                        > armor, etc. I would imagine that while they did not fight major
                        > battles
                        > with bows or crossbows, the nobility might use them during a siege
                        > where
                        > they would have nothing else to do while artiliary and siege
                        > engines were
                        > working.
                        >
                        > I did find a refence to some archer nobility:
                        >
                        > "The Company of Scottish Archers was formed in 1676 and is possibly
                        > the
                        > oldest sporting body in Britain today. It was granted a royal
                        > charter by
                        > Queen Anne and drew its membership from the aristocracy, gentry and
                        > professional classes of Edinburgh. "
                        > http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/archers.html
                        >
                        > "Among Viking armies, however, even kings fought with bows. For
                        > example,
                        > at the great sea battle of Skold in 1000 AD, when Norwegian King Olav
                        > Trygvasson was cornered by his enemies and killed, during the long
                        > day's
                        > battle King Olav fought mostly from the raised rear quarterdeck of his
                        > great warship the Long Serpent, alternately throwing spears and
                        > shooting
                        > arrows at his attackers."
                        > http://www.strongbowsaga.com/showwik.asp?WikID=38
                        >
                        > "My point being that the archers, even at the low end, were paid
                        > specialists, not peasant levies. I haven't found a picture of an
                        > armored
                        > archer with his own arms(yet), but I'm working on it. When Henry II
                        > conquered Ireland, Richard de Clare, Earl of Pembroke (which
                        > Earldom was a
                        > traditional source of archer levies) had the epithet 'Strongbow',
                        > because
                        > he was reputed to draw the strongest bow in the kingdom. I find it
                        > hard to
                        > believe that he could get a name for his archery without using the
                        > bow a
                        > *lot*, and in war; clearly, it isn't improper for a nobleman to be an
                        > archer."
                        > http://www.florilegium.org/files/ARCHERY/archery-msg.html
                        >
                        > THL Caleb Reynolds
                        > Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
                        > King's Archery Champion


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • mark s graves
                        i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing and maybe
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                          i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                          have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing
                          and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                          this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                        • John edgerton
                          At this point, no idea. Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            At this point, no idea.

                            Jon
                            On Dec 6, 2007, at 11:11 AM, mark s graves wrote:

                            > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards.
                            > Where
                            > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                            > wearing
                            > and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                            > this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Rusty McMillan
                            William, I m in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under Joan of Arc ,
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                              William,

                              I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be
                              coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under "Joan
                              of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde Ecossaise".
                              Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you
                              should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this
                              thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until much
                              later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.

                              Randal of Camusfearna

                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, mark s graves <williamross3@...>
                              wrote:

                              i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                              have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                              wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish
                              and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                            • ronan mackee
                              Hello When I was doing research on archers I came across information on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of these duties was
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                                Hello

                                When I was doing research on archers I came across information on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the king correct ?



                                the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free encyclopedia web sight under yeoman



                                I hope this helps

                                Ronan Mackay




                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Rusty McMillan <randal_of_camusfearna@...>
                                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 2:17:59 PM
                                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers














                                William,



                                I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be

                                coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under "Joan

                                of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde Ecossaise".

                                Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you

                                should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this

                                thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until much

                                later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.



                                Randal of Camusfearna



                                --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, mark s graves <williamross3@ ...>

                                wrote:



                                i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where

                                have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were

                                wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish

                                and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye














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                              • John edgerton
                                Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The Scottish Guard of Archers,
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott
                                  might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The
                                  Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect
                                  and serve the king of France.

                                  Jon

                                  On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:

                                  > Hello
                                  >
                                  > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on
                                  > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of
                                  > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my
                                  > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman
                                  > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the
                                  > king correct ?
                                  >
                                  > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free
                                  > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman
                                  >
                                  > I hope this helps
                                  >
                                  > Ronan Mackay


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • ronan mackee
                                  Thanks for clearing that up for me Ronan ... From: John edgerton To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks for clearing that up for me


                                    Ronan

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: John edgerton <sirjon1@...>
                                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers














                                    Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott

                                    might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The

                                    Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect

                                    and serve the king of France.



                                    Jon



                                    On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:



                                    > Hello

                                    >

                                    > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on

                                    > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of

                                    > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my

                                    > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman

                                    > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the

                                    > king correct ?

                                    >

                                    > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free

                                    > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman

                                    >

                                    > I hope this helps

                                    >

                                    > Ronan Mackay



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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                                  • Edward deWitt
                                    FWIW Check the link out. It doesn t have anything to do with the Archery Guard, but it has mention of the Scots Archers during the fight for Independence(
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                                      FWIW

                                      Check the link out. It doesn't have anything to do with the Archery Guard, but it has mention of the Scots Archers during the fight for Independence( Wallace and Bruce era). It refers to the Battle of Rosslyn, 1303.

                                      http://sinclair.quarterman.org/history/med/battleofrosslyn.html

                                      Edward

                                      gene

                                      ronan mackee <ronanmackee@...> wrote: Thanks for clearing that up for me

                                      Ronan

                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: John edgerton <sirjon1@...>
                                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers

                                      Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott

                                      might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The

                                      Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect

                                      and serve the king of France.

                                      Jon

                                      On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:

                                      > Hello

                                      >

                                      > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on

                                      > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of

                                      > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my

                                      > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman

                                      > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the

                                      > king correct ?

                                      >

                                      > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free

                                      > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman

                                      >

                                      > I hope this helps

                                      >

                                      > Ronan Mackay

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                                    • arturdubh
                                      I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split my time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the Scottish Garde
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split my
                                        time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the
                                        Scottish Garde couldn't be made up of at least "minor nobility"
                                        (perhaps even the "extra" sons of the higher nobility - those who
                                        wouldn't other-wise have much chance to "prove" themselves). Would a
                                        King really be able to trust a mere commoner with his life -- and
                                        would he want to? It was a different time, with a different mind-
                                        set....

                                        Also, it is never wise to trust Wkipedia as your primary source of
                                        information. Always check out any and all reference links provided in
                                        Wikipedia articles; some people like to add little "surprises" to
                                        those Wikipedia entries -- I nearly got burned by one of
                                        those "surprises" when I foolishly copy/pasted a portion of a
                                        Wikipedia article.

                                        --Artúr


                                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, ronan mackee <ronanmackee@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello
                                        >
                                        > When I was doing research on archers I came across information
                                        on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of
                                        these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my
                                        question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman
                                        because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the king
                                        correct ?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the
                                        free encyclopedia web sight under yeoman
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I hope this helps
                                        >
                                        > Ronan Mackay
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > From: Rusty McMillan <randal_of_camusfearna@...>
                                        > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 2:17:59 PM
                                        > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > William,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be
                                        >
                                        > coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches
                                        under "Joan
                                        >
                                        > of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde
                                        Ecossaise".
                                        >
                                        > Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you
                                        >
                                        > should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this
                                        >
                                        > thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until
                                        much
                                        >
                                        > later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Randal of Camusfearna
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, mark s graves
                                        <williamross3@ ...>
                                        >
                                        > wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards.
                                        Where
                                        >
                                        > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                                        >
                                        > wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am
                                        Scottish
                                        >
                                        > and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                      • jameswolfden
                                        In The Great Warbow by Strickland and Hardy, there is picture of Charles VII and the Garde Ecossaise by Jean Fouquet from The Hours of Etienne Chevalier. Here
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                                          In The Great Warbow by Strickland and Hardy, there is picture of Charles VII and the Garde
                                          Ecossaise by Jean Fouquet from The Hours of Etienne Chevalier. Here is an online link to
                                          the same picture.

                                          http://expositions.bnf.fr/fouquet/grand/f068.htm

                                          We are also given this description attributed to Berry Herald in Narratives of the Expulsion
                                          of the English from Normandy:

                                          "And before them, in the first rank, were the archers of the King of France, all clad in
                                          jackets covered with gold embroidery, of the colour of red, white, and green."

                                          In Service,
                                          James Wolfden


                                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, mark s graves <williamross3@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                                          > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing
                                          > and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                                          > this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                          >
                                        • rolf_hobart
                                          To answer your questions, Yes and Yes. As an example I m summarizing Strickland in The Great Warbow page 258. Richard II maintained a personal bodyguard of
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 7, 2007
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                                            To answer your questions, Yes and Yes.
                                            As an example I'm summarizing Strickland in "The Great Warbow" page
                                            258. Richard II maintained a personal bodyguard of Cheshire yeoman
                                            archers. His familiarity with them, and their subsequent uppity and
                                            thuggish behavior caused them to be unpopular with the English
                                            nobility and provided Henry Bolingbroke another justification for his
                                            insurrection.

                                            Rolf Hobart

                                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "arturdubh" <nasionnaich@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split
                                            my
                                            > time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the
                                            > Scottish Garde couldn't be made up of at least "minor nobility"
                                            > (perhaps even the "extra" sons of the higher nobility - those who
                                            > wouldn't other-wise have much chance to "prove" themselves). Would
                                            a
                                            > King really be able to trust a mere commoner with his life -- and
                                            > would he want to? It was a different time, with a different mind-
                                            > set....
                                            >
                                            > Also, it is never wise to trust Wkipedia as your primary source of
                                            > information. Always check out any and all reference links provided
                                            in
                                            > Wikipedia articles; some people like to add little "surprises" to
                                            > those Wikipedia entries -- I nearly got burned by one of
                                            > those "surprises" when I foolishly copy/pasted a portion of a
                                            > Wikipedia article.
                                            >
                                            > --Artúr
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • John edgerton
                                            I would recommend the Great Warbow to anyone looking for a good source of medieval archery information. I may use some of the information rise of the archers
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Dec 7, 2007
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                                              I would recommend "the Great Warbow" to anyone looking for a good
                                              source of medieval archery information.

                                              I may use some of the information rise of the archers status if I
                                              decide to expand the scope of my article.

                                              Jon

                                              On Dec 5, 2007, at 10:45 AM, Logan McKnight wrote:

                                              > If you are doing research on the subject of 'noble' archers, I
                                              > strongly suggest you pick up 'The Great Warbow' by Matthew Strickland
                                              > and Robert Hardy. I am reading it now and there is a very thorough
                                              > chapter on the English Mounted Archer and the rise of the Archer in
                                              > social status and social mobility.
                                              >
                                              > While it does show a large number of recruited archers from the
                                              > common folk, what it indicates is a growing trend that capable
                                              > archers could ascend the social ladder, becoming minor gentry in the
                                              > process.
                                              >
                                              > There are also two or three sections on Scottish Archery that may
                                              > help with background on the Scottish forces serving in France, as
                                              > well as in their homeland. It also has an interesting argument,
                                              > backed up with archaeological finds as well as documents from the
                                              > period that indicate William Wallace as being a formidable archer,
                                              > and the longbow being his prefered weapon. They have even found
                                              > Wallace's seal which bears a bow and arrow, lending support to their
                                              > argument.
                                              >
                                              > Also, are you familiar with the 'Jodrell Pass'? Again this is
                                              > English but you said your research extended beyond that Scottish
                                              > unit. The Jodrell pass was a document of passage bearing Edward, the
                                              > Black Prince's personal seal, allowing a mounted archer named Jodrell
                                              > passage home to england. What this pass indicates to historians is
                                              > that the archers of higher standing were very well thought of and
                                              > afforded the same luxuries and respect as many of the knights/men-at-
                                              > arms.
                                              >
                                              > All of these things are discussed in 'the Great Warbow' and the
                                              > bibliography of that book contains an incredibly deep well of other
                                              > sources to pour over. Good luck in your research, I look forward to
                                              > perhaps hearing mroe about it.
                                              >
                                              > Godfrey McKnight, the Archer
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • J. Hughes
                                              The disertation was done in 1972 and has 423 pages. But my sources do not list who has it or what institution it was done for. I am sure the article is a
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
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                                                The disertation was done in 1972 and has 423 pages. But my sources do not list who has it or what institution it was done for. I am sure the article is a watered down version.

                                                Charles O'Connor


                                                ----- Original Message ----
                                                From: Bruce <obsidian@...>
                                                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:20:26 PM
                                                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers

                                                Greetings

                                                Well... dunno if it's the same document, but there is this:

                                                Richard II's Archers of the Crown
                                                James L. Gillespie
                                                The Journal of British Studies, Vol. 18, No. 2 (Spring, 1979), pp. 14-
                                                29

                                                I hasten to add that I don't have a copy of this myself, but I do
                                                have the reference, so anyone with access to this journal might look
                                                it up?

                                                Nigel

                                                --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@.. .>
                                                wrote:

                                                >
                                                > I have been cursing myself for letting this slip past me but:
                                                years ago,
                                                > while beginning my researching of archers, I came across a listing
                                                in I
                                                > think was Dissertated Abstracts international, which was a
                                                collection of
                                                > Masters and PHD theses. The interesting one was titled "The
                                                Cheshire Archers
                                                > of Richard II and the creation of Bastard Feudalism". At the time
                                                (the late
                                                > 80s) I didn't think it worth the $35.00 to pay for this. I have
                                                since been
                                                > unable to try to find this again. This might be worth looking into
                                                for this
                                                > project. I keep intending to look for this again, as well as any
                                                theses on
                                                > medieval banner construction.
                                                > Ancel





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                                              • runewald
                                                On Dec 11, 2007, at 12:44 PM, J. Hughes ... Just because....I Googled for The Journal of British Studies and got a list of hits. It is possible to access
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
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                                                  On Dec 11, 2007, at 12:44 PM, J. Hughes ...

                                                  Just because....I Googled for "The Journal of British Studies" and got
                                                  a list of hits. It is possible to access the various volumes, but
                                                  appears you need a Library which has an account. I would suspect that
                                                  most University Libraries have accounts.

                                                  Just a thought....

                                                  Lord Robert Runewald
                                                  Barony of Lochmere
                                                  Kingdom of Atlantia
                                                  >



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                                                • Edward deWitt
                                                  This isn t specific to the Scottish Archer Guard , but it does deal with Scots nobility as archers in late 1500s
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
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                                                    This isn't specific to the Scottish Archer Guard , but it does deal with Scots nobility as archers in late 1500s

                                                    http://www.electricscotland.com/history/genhist/hist35.html


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