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Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers

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  • John edgerton
    Thank you. Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
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      Thank you.

      Jon


      On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Keith Crawley wrote:

      > Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%
      > 89cossaisethis seems to at least hint at the officers having been
      > noble.
      >
      > Baron Percival
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: John edgerton
      > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      > Cc: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:36 PM
      > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
      >
      > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
      > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
      > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
      >
      > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard being
      > nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer members of
      > the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they had
      > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
      > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
      >
      > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
      > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
      > noble birth?
      >
      > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
      > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
      > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
      > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
      > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
      > for those I have found so far.
      >
      > Thank you for any help you can give.
      >
      > Jon
      >
      > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn
      > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
      > cunning of mind.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • caleb@buffnet.net
      ... I do not know about Scotland, but in England pretty much everyone from villein to the king praticed archery. I m almost done reading Agincourt: Henry V
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
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        >
        > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
        > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
        > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
        >
        > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard being
        > nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer members of
        > the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they had
        > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
        > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
        >
        > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
        > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
        > noble birth?
        >
        > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
        > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
        > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
        > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
        > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
        > for those I have found so far.
        >
        > Thank you for any help you can give.
        >
        > Jon
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn An
        > Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and cunning
        > of mind.
        >
        >

        I do not know about Scotland, but in England pretty much everyone from
        villein to the king praticed archery. I'm almost done reading "Agincourt:
        Henry V and the Battle That Made England" by Juliet Barker. She documents
        that Henry V was a good archer, as were his brothers and his father, Henry
        IV, before him. She also says that the books of chivalry, the "Dummy's
        Guide to Being a Knight," that were written for English knights and
        nobility spoke of archery lessons and one particular one written in France
        said that if one wished to learn archery, "go to England." I don't have
        the book in front of me otherwise I would give the reference.

        THL Caleb Reynolds
        Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
        King's Archery Champion
      • John edgerton
        I am familiar with the English and other European nobles of varying degree using archery for sport and recreation. That is well documented. However, what I
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
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          I am familiar with the English and other European nobles of varying
          degree using archery for sport and recreation. That is well
          documented. However, what I am trying to locate are sources for use
          of archery by the nobel class for military purposes.

          Jon
          On Dec 4, 2007, at 12:54 PM, <caleb@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > I do not know about Scotland, but in England pretty much everyone from
          > villein to the king praticed archery. I'm almost done reading
          > "Agincourt:
          > Henry V and the Battle That Made England" by Juliet Barker. She
          > documents
          > that Henry V was a good archer, as were his brothers and his
          > father, Henry
          > IV, before him. She also says that the books of chivalry, the "Dummy's
          > Guide to Being a Knight," that were written for English knights and
          > nobility spoke of archery lessons and one particular one written in
          > France
          > said that if one wished to learn archery, "go to England." I don't
          > have
          > the book in front of me otherwise I would give the reference.
          >
          > THL Caleb Reynolds
          > Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
          > King's Archery Champion
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Keith Crawley
          How many bodies were in the Garde at any one time? If this was a small personal body guard one could expect perhaps a couple hundred at best and these sorts of
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
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            How many bodies were in the Garde at any one time? If this was a small personal body guard one could expect perhaps a couple hundred at best and these sorts of numbers could certainly have come from the Scottish Nobility with little impact on Scotland herself. However if this was a regimental or larger sized unit the sheer numbers would lead one to think some at least must have been common soldiers. If it was totally made up of Nobles who was left back in Scotland to run things. At this time in History what would Scotland's population have been and a better question how many Noble families were there to feed such a machine fresh bodies on a regular basis as they were killed off in some of the battles? It isn't the proof you seek but I'm thinking unless this was a very small elite unit that it would by necessity have to be made up of nobles as officers and common soldiers filling out the rank and file.

            Baron Percival
            Baron of Septentria
            Archer Champion to TRM Trumbrand and Kayla Rex et Regina Ealdormere




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Keith Crawley
            Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not Noble mention as such
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
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              Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not Noble mention as such and this would lead me to think some at least were of common birth. It also mentions a name David Simson as a part of a unit of archers with no title or rank even further indicating probable common birth i should think. It also mentions a number in the region of 100 men total with an elite group of 25 and 74 archers although this seems to have been a bit later in the units history. .

              Baron Percival
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: John edgerton
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 PM
              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers


              Thank you.

              Jon

              On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Keith Crawley wrote:

              > Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%
              > 89cossaisethis seems to at least hint at the officers having been
              > noble.
              >
              > Baron Percival
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: John edgerton
              > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              > Cc: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:36 PM
              > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
              >
              > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
              > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
              > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
              >
              > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard being
              > nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer members of
              > the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they had
              > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
              > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
              >
              > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
              > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
              > noble birth?
              >
              > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
              > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
              > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
              > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
              > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
              > for those I have found so far.
              >
              > Thank you for any help you can give.
              >
              > Jon
              >
              > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn
              > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
              > cunning of mind.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • loreleiElkins@aol.com
              Jon, Please do share your information with us all here when you do complete your work. And, thank you for the undertaking. Lorelei In a message dated
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
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                Jon,

                Please do share your information with us all here when you do complete your
                work. And, thank you for the undertaking.

                Lorelei

                In a message dated 12/4/2007 1:37:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                sirjon1@... writes:

                am trying to put together some documented information to help
                counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
                were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
                there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
                am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
                for those I have found so far.

                Thank you for any help you can give.

                Jon





                Lorelei



                **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
                products.
                (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • caleb@buffnet.net
                I checked through my library last night and could not find anything about nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his archers 6
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
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                  I checked through my library last night and could not find anything about
                  nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his
                  archers 6 pennies a day for his first campaign into France, where Knights
                  were paid 2 shillings a day. Barons were paid 4 shillings and higher
                  ranking members of nobility were paid even more. If these rates were
                  common across Europe, I don't think we will see any documentation of
                  nobles being hired as archers: they would be paid more money to be hired
                  at their rank. The increased money would cover horses, household members,
                  armor, etc. I would imagine that while they did not fight major battles
                  with bows or crossbows, the nobility might use them during a siege where
                  they would have nothing else to do while artiliary and siege engines were
                  working.

                  I did find a refence to some archer nobility:

                  "The Company of Scottish Archers was formed in 1676 and is possibly the
                  oldest sporting body in Britain today. It was granted a royal charter by
                  Queen Anne and drew its membership from the aristocracy, gentry and
                  professional classes of Edinburgh. "
                  http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/archers.html

                  "Among Viking armies, however, even kings fought with bows. For example,
                  at the great sea battle of Skold in 1000 AD, when Norwegian King Olav
                  Trygvasson was cornered by his enemies and killed, during the long day's
                  battle King Olav fought mostly from the raised rear quarterdeck of his
                  great warship the Long Serpent, alternately throwing spears and shooting
                  arrows at his attackers."
                  http://www.strongbowsaga.com/showwik.asp?WikID=38

                  "My point being that the archers, even at the low end, were paid
                  specialists, not peasant levies. I haven't found a picture of an armored
                  archer with his own arms(yet), but I'm working on it. When Henry II
                  conquered Ireland, Richard de Clare, Earl of Pembroke (which Earldom was a
                  traditional source of archer levies) had the epithet 'Strongbow', because
                  he was reputed to draw the strongest bow in the kingdom. I find it hard to
                  believe that he could get a name for his archery without using the bow a
                  *lot*, and in war; clearly, it isn't improper for a nobleman to be an
                  archer."
                  http://www.florilegium.org/files/ARCHERY/archery-msg.html

                  THL Caleb Reynolds
                  Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
                  King's Archery Champion


                  > Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it
                  > mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not
                  > Noble mention as such and this would lead me to think some at least were
                  > of common birth. It also mentions a name David Simson as a part of a
                  > unit of archers with no title or rank even further indicating probable
                  > common birth i should think. It also mentions a number in the region of
                  > 100 men total with an elite group of 25 and 74 archers although this
                  > seems to have been a bit later in the units history. .
                  >
                  > Baron Percival
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: John edgerton
                  > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
                  >
                  >
                  > Thank you.
                  >
                  > Jon
                  >
                  > On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Keith Crawley wrote:
                  >
                  > > Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%
                  > 89cossaisethis seems to at least hint at the officers having been
                  > noble.
                  > >
                  > > Baron Percival
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: John edgerton
                  > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Cc: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:36 PM
                  > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
                  > >
                  > > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
                  > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
                  > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
                  > >
                  > > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard
                  > being nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer
                  > members of the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they
                  > had
                  > > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
                  > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
                  > >
                  > > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
                  > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
                  > noble birth?
                  > >
                  > > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
                  > counter the misconception that all medieval european military
                  > archers were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show
                  > that there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble
                  > class. I am looking for information for other countries and
                  > additional sources for those I have found so far.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for any help you can give.
                  > >
                  > > Jon
                  > >
                  > > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn
                  > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
                  > cunning of mind.
                  > >
                • Keith Crawley
                  Here is a link http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/templar.htm that puts an interesting Templar spin on things. Don t know what if any facts are drawn on by the
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
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                    Here is a link http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/templar.htm that puts an interesting Templar spin on things. Don't know what if any facts are drawn on by the author who ever it is but it sure makes for an interesting theory when tied in with other Scottish Templar beliefs/myths.

                    Baron Percival



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Logan McKnight
                    If you are doing research on the subject of noble archers, I strongly suggest you pick up The Great Warbow by Matthew Strickland and Robert Hardy. I am
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
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                      If you are doing research on the subject of 'noble' archers, I
                      strongly suggest you pick up 'The Great Warbow' by Matthew Strickland
                      and Robert Hardy. I am reading it now and there is a very thorough
                      chapter on the English Mounted Archer and the rise of the Archer in
                      social status and social mobility.

                      While it does show a large number of recruited archers from the
                      common folk, what it indicates is a growing trend that capable
                      archers could ascend the social ladder, becoming minor gentry in the
                      process.

                      There are also two or three sections on Scottish Archery that may
                      help with background on the Scottish forces serving in France, as
                      well as in their homeland. It also has an interesting argument,
                      backed up with archaeological finds as well as documents from the
                      period that indicate William Wallace as being a formidable archer,
                      and the longbow being his prefered weapon. They have even found
                      Wallace's seal which bears a bow and arrow, lending support to their
                      argument.

                      Also, are you familiar with the 'Jodrell Pass'? Again this is
                      English but you said your research extended beyond that Scottish
                      unit. The Jodrell pass was a document of passage bearing Edward, the
                      Black Prince's personal seal, allowing a mounted archer named Jodrell
                      passage home to england. What this pass indicates to historians is
                      that the archers of higher standing were very well thought of and
                      afforded the same luxuries and respect as many of the knights/men-at-
                      arms.

                      All of these things are discussed in 'the Great Warbow' and the
                      bibliography of that book contains an incredibly deep well of other
                      sources to pour over. Good luck in your research, I look forward to
                      perhaps hearing mroe about it.

                      Godfrey McKnight, the Archer
                    • John edgerton
                      Around 25 to 100 depending upon the time period. The nobility in the guard would not have been the ruling nobility, just the sons or other relatives. Jon ...
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                        Around 25 to 100 depending upon the time period. The nobility in the
                        guard would not have been the ruling nobility, just the sons or other
                        relatives.

                        Jon

                        On Dec 4, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Keith Crawley wrote:

                        > How many bodies were in the Garde at any one time? If this was a
                        > small personal body guard one could expect perhaps a couple hundred
                        > at best and these sorts of numbers could certainly have come from
                        > the Scottish Nobility with little impact on Scotland herself.
                        > However if this was a regimental or larger sized unit the sheer
                        > numbers would lead one to think some at least must have been common
                        > soldiers. If it was totally made up of Nobles who was left back in
                        > Scotland to run things. At this time in History what would
                        > Scotland's population have been and a better question how many
                        > Noble families were there to feed such a machine fresh bodies on a
                        > regular basis as they were killed off in some of the battles? It
                        > isn't the proof you seek but I'm thinking unless this was a very
                        > small elite unit that it would by necessity have to be made up of
                        > nobles as officers and common soldiers filling out the rank and file.
                        >
                        > Baron Percival
                        > Baron of Septentria
                        > Archer Champion to TRM Trumbrand and Kayla Rex et Regina Ealdormere
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John edgerton
                        I intend to post it here when it is done and also put it in the files section. Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                          I intend to post it here when it is done and also put it in the files
                          section.

                          Jon

                          On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:14 AM, loreleiElkins@... wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > Jon,
                          >
                          > Please do share your information with us all here when you do
                          > complete your
                          > work. And, thank you for the undertaking.
                          >
                          > Lorelei
                          >
                          > In a message dated 12/4/2007 1:37:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          > sirjon1@... writes:
                          >
                          > am trying to put together some documented information to help
                          > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
                          > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
                          > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
                          > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
                          > for those I have found so far.
                          >
                          > Thank you for any help you can give.
                          >
                          > Jon
                          >
                          > Lorelei
                          >
                          > **************************************Check out AOL's list of
                          > 2007's hottest
                          > products.
                          > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?
                          > NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • John edgerton
                          The Garde Écossaise were not just a company of archers they were part of the kings personal guard and it seems were in attendance on him at times other than
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                            The Garde Écossaise were not just a company of archers they were part
                            of the kings personal guard and it seems were in attendance on him at
                            times other than in battle. Such duties would suggest they would
                            have been mainly of nobel birth and not just commoners.

                            Jon

                            On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:33 AM, <caleb@...> <caleb@...>
                            wrote:

                            > I checked through my library last night and could not find anything
                            > about
                            > nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his
                            > archers 6 pennies a day for his first campaign into France, where
                            > Knights
                            > were paid 2 shillings a day. Barons were paid 4 shillings and higher
                            > ranking members of nobility were paid even more. If these rates were
                            > common across Europe, I don't think we will see any documentation of
                            > nobles being hired as archers: they would be paid more money to be
                            > hired
                            > at their rank. The increased money would cover horses, household
                            > members,
                            > armor, etc. I would imagine that while they did not fight major
                            > battles
                            > with bows or crossbows, the nobility might use them during a siege
                            > where
                            > they would have nothing else to do while artiliary and siege
                            > engines were
                            > working.
                            >
                            > I did find a refence to some archer nobility:
                            >
                            > "The Company of Scottish Archers was formed in 1676 and is possibly
                            > the
                            > oldest sporting body in Britain today. It was granted a royal
                            > charter by
                            > Queen Anne and drew its membership from the aristocracy, gentry and
                            > professional classes of Edinburgh. "
                            > http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/archers.html
                            >
                            > "Among Viking armies, however, even kings fought with bows. For
                            > example,
                            > at the great sea battle of Skold in 1000 AD, when Norwegian King Olav
                            > Trygvasson was cornered by his enemies and killed, during the long
                            > day's
                            > battle King Olav fought mostly from the raised rear quarterdeck of his
                            > great warship the Long Serpent, alternately throwing spears and
                            > shooting
                            > arrows at his attackers."
                            > http://www.strongbowsaga.com/showwik.asp?WikID=38
                            >
                            > "My point being that the archers, even at the low end, were paid
                            > specialists, not peasant levies. I haven't found a picture of an
                            > armored
                            > archer with his own arms(yet), but I'm working on it. When Henry II
                            > conquered Ireland, Richard de Clare, Earl of Pembroke (which
                            > Earldom was a
                            > traditional source of archer levies) had the epithet 'Strongbow',
                            > because
                            > he was reputed to draw the strongest bow in the kingdom. I find it
                            > hard to
                            > believe that he could get a name for his archery without using the
                            > bow a
                            > *lot*, and in war; clearly, it isn't improper for a nobleman to be an
                            > archer."
                            > http://www.florilegium.org/files/ARCHERY/archery-msg.html
                            >
                            > THL Caleb Reynolds
                            > Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
                            > King's Archery Champion


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • mark s graves
                            i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing and maybe
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                              i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                              have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing
                              and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                              this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                            • John edgerton
                              At this point, no idea. Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                At this point, no idea.

                                Jon
                                On Dec 6, 2007, at 11:11 AM, mark s graves wrote:

                                > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards.
                                > Where
                                > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                                > wearing
                                > and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                                > this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Rusty McMillan
                                William, I m in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under Joan of Arc ,
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                                  William,

                                  I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be
                                  coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under "Joan
                                  of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde Ecossaise".
                                  Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you
                                  should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this
                                  thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until much
                                  later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.

                                  Randal of Camusfearna

                                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, mark s graves <williamross3@...>
                                  wrote:

                                  i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                                  have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                                  wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish
                                  and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                • ronan mackee
                                  Hello When I was doing research on archers I came across information on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of these duties was
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello

                                    When I was doing research on archers I came across information on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the king correct ?



                                    the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free encyclopedia web sight under yeoman



                                    I hope this helps

                                    Ronan Mackay




                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Rusty McMillan <randal_of_camusfearna@...>
                                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 2:17:59 PM
                                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers














                                    William,



                                    I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be

                                    coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under "Joan

                                    of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde Ecossaise".

                                    Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you

                                    should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this

                                    thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until much

                                    later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.



                                    Randal of Camusfearna



                                    --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, mark s graves <williamross3@ ...>

                                    wrote:



                                    i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where

                                    have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were

                                    wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish

                                    and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye














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                                  • John edgerton
                                    Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The Scottish Guard of Archers,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott
                                      might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The
                                      Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect
                                      and serve the king of France.

                                      Jon

                                      On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:

                                      > Hello
                                      >
                                      > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on
                                      > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of
                                      > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my
                                      > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman
                                      > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the
                                      > king correct ?
                                      >
                                      > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free
                                      > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman
                                      >
                                      > I hope this helps
                                      >
                                      > Ronan Mackay


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • ronan mackee
                                      Thanks for clearing that up for me Ronan ... From: John edgerton To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Thanks for clearing that up for me


                                        Ronan

                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: John edgerton <sirjon1@...>
                                        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers














                                        Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott

                                        might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The

                                        Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect

                                        and serve the king of France.



                                        Jon



                                        On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:



                                        > Hello

                                        >

                                        > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on

                                        > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of

                                        > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my

                                        > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman

                                        > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the

                                        > king correct ?

                                        >

                                        > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free

                                        > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman

                                        >

                                        > I hope this helps

                                        >

                                        > Ronan Mackay



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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                                      • Edward deWitt
                                        FWIW Check the link out. It doesn t have anything to do with the Archery Guard, but it has mention of the Scots Archers during the fight for Independence(
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                                          FWIW

                                          Check the link out. It doesn't have anything to do with the Archery Guard, but it has mention of the Scots Archers during the fight for Independence( Wallace and Bruce era). It refers to the Battle of Rosslyn, 1303.

                                          http://sinclair.quarterman.org/history/med/battleofrosslyn.html

                                          Edward

                                          gene

                                          ronan mackee <ronanmackee@...> wrote: Thanks for clearing that up for me

                                          Ronan

                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: John edgerton <sirjon1@...>
                                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers

                                          Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott

                                          might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The

                                          Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect

                                          and serve the king of France.

                                          Jon

                                          On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:

                                          > Hello

                                          >

                                          > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on

                                          > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of

                                          > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my

                                          > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman

                                          > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the

                                          > king correct ?

                                          >

                                          > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free

                                          > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman

                                          >

                                          > I hope this helps

                                          >

                                          > Ronan Mackay

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                                        • arturdubh
                                          I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split my time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the Scottish Garde
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split my
                                            time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the
                                            Scottish Garde couldn't be made up of at least "minor nobility"
                                            (perhaps even the "extra" sons of the higher nobility - those who
                                            wouldn't other-wise have much chance to "prove" themselves). Would a
                                            King really be able to trust a mere commoner with his life -- and
                                            would he want to? It was a different time, with a different mind-
                                            set....

                                            Also, it is never wise to trust Wkipedia as your primary source of
                                            information. Always check out any and all reference links provided in
                                            Wikipedia articles; some people like to add little "surprises" to
                                            those Wikipedia entries -- I nearly got burned by one of
                                            those "surprises" when I foolishly copy/pasted a portion of a
                                            Wikipedia article.

                                            --Artúr


                                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, ronan mackee <ronanmackee@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hello
                                            >
                                            > When I was doing research on archers I came across information
                                            on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of
                                            these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my
                                            question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman
                                            because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the king
                                            correct ?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the
                                            free encyclopedia web sight under yeoman
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I hope this helps
                                            >
                                            > Ronan Mackay
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message ----
                                            > From: Rusty McMillan <randal_of_camusfearna@...>
                                            > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 2:17:59 PM
                                            > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > William,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be
                                            >
                                            > coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches
                                            under "Joan
                                            >
                                            > of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde
                                            Ecossaise".
                                            >
                                            > Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you
                                            >
                                            > should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this
                                            >
                                            > thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until
                                            much
                                            >
                                            > later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Randal of Camusfearna
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, mark s graves
                                            <williamross3@ ...>
                                            >
                                            > wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards.
                                            Where
                                            >
                                            > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                                            >
                                            > wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am
                                            Scottish
                                            >
                                            > and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                          • jameswolfden
                                            In The Great Warbow by Strickland and Hardy, there is picture of Charles VII and the Garde Ecossaise by Jean Fouquet from The Hours of Etienne Chevalier. Here
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
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                                              In The Great Warbow by Strickland and Hardy, there is picture of Charles VII and the Garde
                                              Ecossaise by Jean Fouquet from The Hours of Etienne Chevalier. Here is an online link to
                                              the same picture.

                                              http://expositions.bnf.fr/fouquet/grand/f068.htm

                                              We are also given this description attributed to Berry Herald in Narratives of the Expulsion
                                              of the English from Normandy:

                                              "And before them, in the first rank, were the archers of the King of France, all clad in
                                              jackets covered with gold embroidery, of the colour of red, white, and green."

                                              In Service,
                                              James Wolfden


                                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, mark s graves <williamross3@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                                              > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing
                                              > and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                                              > this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                              >
                                            • rolf_hobart
                                              To answer your questions, Yes and Yes. As an example I m summarizing Strickland in The Great Warbow page 258. Richard II maintained a personal bodyguard of
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Dec 7, 2007
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                                                To answer your questions, Yes and Yes.
                                                As an example I'm summarizing Strickland in "The Great Warbow" page
                                                258. Richard II maintained a personal bodyguard of Cheshire yeoman
                                                archers. His familiarity with them, and their subsequent uppity and
                                                thuggish behavior caused them to be unpopular with the English
                                                nobility and provided Henry Bolingbroke another justification for his
                                                insurrection.

                                                Rolf Hobart

                                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "arturdubh" <nasionnaich@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split
                                                my
                                                > time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the
                                                > Scottish Garde couldn't be made up of at least "minor nobility"
                                                > (perhaps even the "extra" sons of the higher nobility - those who
                                                > wouldn't other-wise have much chance to "prove" themselves). Would
                                                a
                                                > King really be able to trust a mere commoner with his life -- and
                                                > would he want to? It was a different time, with a different mind-
                                                > set....
                                                >
                                                > Also, it is never wise to trust Wkipedia as your primary source of
                                                > information. Always check out any and all reference links provided
                                                in
                                                > Wikipedia articles; some people like to add little "surprises" to
                                                > those Wikipedia entries -- I nearly got burned by one of
                                                > those "surprises" when I foolishly copy/pasted a portion of a
                                                > Wikipedia article.
                                                >
                                                > --Artúr
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • John edgerton
                                                I would recommend the Great Warbow to anyone looking for a good source of medieval archery information. I may use some of the information rise of the archers
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Dec 7, 2007
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                                                  I would recommend "the Great Warbow" to anyone looking for a good
                                                  source of medieval archery information.

                                                  I may use some of the information rise of the archers status if I
                                                  decide to expand the scope of my article.

                                                  Jon

                                                  On Dec 5, 2007, at 10:45 AM, Logan McKnight wrote:

                                                  > If you are doing research on the subject of 'noble' archers, I
                                                  > strongly suggest you pick up 'The Great Warbow' by Matthew Strickland
                                                  > and Robert Hardy. I am reading it now and there is a very thorough
                                                  > chapter on the English Mounted Archer and the rise of the Archer in
                                                  > social status and social mobility.
                                                  >
                                                  > While it does show a large number of recruited archers from the
                                                  > common folk, what it indicates is a growing trend that capable
                                                  > archers could ascend the social ladder, becoming minor gentry in the
                                                  > process.
                                                  >
                                                  > There are also two or three sections on Scottish Archery that may
                                                  > help with background on the Scottish forces serving in France, as
                                                  > well as in their homeland. It also has an interesting argument,
                                                  > backed up with archaeological finds as well as documents from the
                                                  > period that indicate William Wallace as being a formidable archer,
                                                  > and the longbow being his prefered weapon. They have even found
                                                  > Wallace's seal which bears a bow and arrow, lending support to their
                                                  > argument.
                                                  >
                                                  > Also, are you familiar with the 'Jodrell Pass'? Again this is
                                                  > English but you said your research extended beyond that Scottish
                                                  > unit. The Jodrell pass was a document of passage bearing Edward, the
                                                  > Black Prince's personal seal, allowing a mounted archer named Jodrell
                                                  > passage home to england. What this pass indicates to historians is
                                                  > that the archers of higher standing were very well thought of and
                                                  > afforded the same luxuries and respect as many of the knights/men-at-
                                                  > arms.
                                                  >
                                                  > All of these things are discussed in 'the Great Warbow' and the
                                                  > bibliography of that book contains an incredibly deep well of other
                                                  > sources to pour over. Good luck in your research, I look forward to
                                                  > perhaps hearing mroe about it.
                                                  >
                                                  > Godfrey McKnight, the Archer
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • J. Hughes
                                                  The disertation was done in 1972 and has 423 pages. But my sources do not list who has it or what institution it was done for. I am sure the article is a
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
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                                                    The disertation was done in 1972 and has 423 pages. But my sources do not list who has it or what institution it was done for. I am sure the article is a watered down version.

                                                    Charles O'Connor


                                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                                    From: Bruce <obsidian@...>
                                                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:20:26 PM
                                                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers

                                                    Greetings

                                                    Well... dunno if it's the same document, but there is this:

                                                    Richard II's Archers of the Crown
                                                    James L. Gillespie
                                                    The Journal of British Studies, Vol. 18, No. 2 (Spring, 1979), pp. 14-
                                                    29

                                                    I hasten to add that I don't have a copy of this myself, but I do
                                                    have the reference, so anyone with access to this journal might look
                                                    it up?

                                                    Nigel

                                                    --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@.. .>
                                                    wrote:

                                                    >
                                                    > I have been cursing myself for letting this slip past me but:
                                                    years ago,
                                                    > while beginning my researching of archers, I came across a listing
                                                    in I
                                                    > think was Dissertated Abstracts international, which was a
                                                    collection of
                                                    > Masters and PHD theses. The interesting one was titled "The
                                                    Cheshire Archers
                                                    > of Richard II and the creation of Bastard Feudalism". At the time
                                                    (the late
                                                    > 80s) I didn't think it worth the $35.00 to pay for this. I have
                                                    since been
                                                    > unable to try to find this again. This might be worth looking into
                                                    for this
                                                    > project. I keep intending to look for this again, as well as any
                                                    theses on
                                                    > medieval banner construction.
                                                    > Ancel





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                                                  • runewald
                                                    On Dec 11, 2007, at 12:44 PM, J. Hughes ... Just because....I Googled for The Journal of British Studies and got a list of hits. It is possible to access
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
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                                                      On Dec 11, 2007, at 12:44 PM, J. Hughes ...

                                                      Just because....I Googled for "The Journal of British Studies" and got
                                                      a list of hits. It is possible to access the various volumes, but
                                                      appears you need a Library which has an account. I would suspect that
                                                      most University Libraries have accounts.

                                                      Just a thought....

                                                      Lord Robert Runewald
                                                      Barony of Lochmere
                                                      Kingdom of Atlantia
                                                      >



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                                                    • Edward deWitt
                                                      This isn t specific to the Scottish Archer Guard , but it does deal with Scots nobility as archers in late 1500s
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
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                                                        This isn't specific to the Scottish Archer Guard , but it does deal with Scots nobility as archers in late 1500s

                                                        http://www.electricscotland.com/history/genhist/hist35.html


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