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Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers

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  • Keith Crawley
    Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%89cossaise this seems to at least hint at the officers having been noble. Baron Percival ...
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
      Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%89cossaise this seems to at least hint at the officers having been noble.

      Baron Percival

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: John edgerton
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:36 PM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers



      The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
      1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
      The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.

      I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard being
      nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer members of
      the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they had
      guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
      were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.

      Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
      which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
      noble birth?

      I am trying to put together some documented information to help
      counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
      were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
      there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
      am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
      for those I have found so far.

      Thank you for any help you can give.

      Jon

      Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn
      An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
      cunning of mind.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John edgerton
      Thank you. Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
        Thank you.

        Jon


        On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Keith Crawley wrote:

        > Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%
        > 89cossaisethis seems to at least hint at the officers having been
        > noble.
        >
        > Baron Percival
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: John edgerton
        > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        > Cc: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:36 PM
        > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
        >
        > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
        > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
        > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
        >
        > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard being
        > nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer members of
        > the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they had
        > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
        > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
        >
        > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
        > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
        > noble birth?
        >
        > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
        > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
        > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
        > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
        > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
        > for those I have found so far.
        >
        > Thank you for any help you can give.
        >
        > Jon
        >
        > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn
        > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
        > cunning of mind.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • caleb@buffnet.net
        ... I do not know about Scotland, but in England pretty much everyone from villein to the king praticed archery. I m almost done reading Agincourt: Henry V
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
          >
          > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
          > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
          > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
          >
          > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard being
          > nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer members of
          > the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they had
          > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
          > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
          >
          > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
          > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
          > noble birth?
          >
          > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
          > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
          > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
          > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
          > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
          > for those I have found so far.
          >
          > Thank you for any help you can give.
          >
          > Jon
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn An
          > Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and cunning
          > of mind.
          >
          >

          I do not know about Scotland, but in England pretty much everyone from
          villein to the king praticed archery. I'm almost done reading "Agincourt:
          Henry V and the Battle That Made England" by Juliet Barker. She documents
          that Henry V was a good archer, as were his brothers and his father, Henry
          IV, before him. She also says that the books of chivalry, the "Dummy's
          Guide to Being a Knight," that were written for English knights and
          nobility spoke of archery lessons and one particular one written in France
          said that if one wished to learn archery, "go to England." I don't have
          the book in front of me otherwise I would give the reference.

          THL Caleb Reynolds
          Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
          King's Archery Champion
        • John edgerton
          I am familiar with the English and other European nobles of varying degree using archery for sport and recreation. That is well documented. However, what I
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
            I am familiar with the English and other European nobles of varying
            degree using archery for sport and recreation. That is well
            documented. However, what I am trying to locate are sources for use
            of archery by the nobel class for military purposes.

            Jon
            On Dec 4, 2007, at 12:54 PM, <caleb@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I do not know about Scotland, but in England pretty much everyone from
            > villein to the king praticed archery. I'm almost done reading
            > "Agincourt:
            > Henry V and the Battle That Made England" by Juliet Barker. She
            > documents
            > that Henry V was a good archer, as were his brothers and his
            > father, Henry
            > IV, before him. She also says that the books of chivalry, the "Dummy's
            > Guide to Being a Knight," that were written for English knights and
            > nobility spoke of archery lessons and one particular one written in
            > France
            > said that if one wished to learn archery, "go to England." I don't
            > have
            > the book in front of me otherwise I would give the reference.
            >
            > THL Caleb Reynolds
            > Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
            > King's Archery Champion
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Keith Crawley
            How many bodies were in the Garde at any one time? If this was a small personal body guard one could expect perhaps a couple hundred at best and these sorts of
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
              How many bodies were in the Garde at any one time? If this was a small personal body guard one could expect perhaps a couple hundred at best and these sorts of numbers could certainly have come from the Scottish Nobility with little impact on Scotland herself. However if this was a regimental or larger sized unit the sheer numbers would lead one to think some at least must have been common soldiers. If it was totally made up of Nobles who was left back in Scotland to run things. At this time in History what would Scotland's population have been and a better question how many Noble families were there to feed such a machine fresh bodies on a regular basis as they were killed off in some of the battles? It isn't the proof you seek but I'm thinking unless this was a very small elite unit that it would by necessity have to be made up of nobles as officers and common soldiers filling out the rank and file.

              Baron Percival
              Baron of Septentria
              Archer Champion to TRM Trumbrand and Kayla Rex et Regina Ealdormere




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Keith Crawley
              Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not Noble mention as such
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 4, 2007
                Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not Noble mention as such and this would lead me to think some at least were of common birth. It also mentions a name David Simson as a part of a unit of archers with no title or rank even further indicating probable common birth i should think. It also mentions a number in the region of 100 men total with an elite group of 25 and 74 archers although this seems to have been a bit later in the units history. .

                Baron Percival
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: John edgerton
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers


                Thank you.

                Jon

                On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Keith Crawley wrote:

                > Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%
                > 89cossaisethis seems to at least hint at the officers having been
                > noble.
                >
                > Baron Percival
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: John edgerton
                > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                > Cc: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:36 PM
                > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
                >
                > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
                > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
                > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
                >
                > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard being
                > nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer members of
                > the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they had
                > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
                > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
                >
                > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
                > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
                > noble birth?
                >
                > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
                > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
                > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
                > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
                > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
                > for those I have found so far.
                >
                > Thank you for any help you can give.
                >
                > Jon
                >
                > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn
                > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
                > cunning of mind.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • loreleiElkins@aol.com
                Jon, Please do share your information with us all here when you do complete your work. And, thank you for the undertaking. Lorelei In a message dated
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
                  Jon,

                  Please do share your information with us all here when you do complete your
                  work. And, thank you for the undertaking.

                  Lorelei

                  In a message dated 12/4/2007 1:37:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  sirjon1@... writes:

                  am trying to put together some documented information to help
                  counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
                  were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
                  there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
                  am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
                  for those I have found so far.

                  Thank you for any help you can give.

                  Jon





                  Lorelei



                  **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
                  products.
                  (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • caleb@buffnet.net
                  I checked through my library last night and could not find anything about nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his archers 6
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
                    I checked through my library last night and could not find anything about
                    nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his
                    archers 6 pennies a day for his first campaign into France, where Knights
                    were paid 2 shillings a day. Barons were paid 4 shillings and higher
                    ranking members of nobility were paid even more. If these rates were
                    common across Europe, I don't think we will see any documentation of
                    nobles being hired as archers: they would be paid more money to be hired
                    at their rank. The increased money would cover horses, household members,
                    armor, etc. I would imagine that while they did not fight major battles
                    with bows or crossbows, the nobility might use them during a siege where
                    they would have nothing else to do while artiliary and siege engines were
                    working.

                    I did find a refence to some archer nobility:

                    "The Company of Scottish Archers was formed in 1676 and is possibly the
                    oldest sporting body in Britain today. It was granted a royal charter by
                    Queen Anne and drew its membership from the aristocracy, gentry and
                    professional classes of Edinburgh. "
                    http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/archers.html

                    "Among Viking armies, however, even kings fought with bows. For example,
                    at the great sea battle of Skold in 1000 AD, when Norwegian King Olav
                    Trygvasson was cornered by his enemies and killed, during the long day's
                    battle King Olav fought mostly from the raised rear quarterdeck of his
                    great warship the Long Serpent, alternately throwing spears and shooting
                    arrows at his attackers."
                    http://www.strongbowsaga.com/showwik.asp?WikID=38

                    "My point being that the archers, even at the low end, were paid
                    specialists, not peasant levies. I haven't found a picture of an armored
                    archer with his own arms(yet), but I'm working on it. When Henry II
                    conquered Ireland, Richard de Clare, Earl of Pembroke (which Earldom was a
                    traditional source of archer levies) had the epithet 'Strongbow', because
                    he was reputed to draw the strongest bow in the kingdom. I find it hard to
                    believe that he could get a name for his archery without using the bow a
                    *lot*, and in war; clearly, it isn't improper for a nobleman to be an
                    archer."
                    http://www.florilegium.org/files/ARCHERY/archery-msg.html

                    THL Caleb Reynolds
                    Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
                    King's Archery Champion


                    > Check out this link http://www.fraser-clan.org/newsletter.htm it
                    > mentions numbers of a few dozen archers and men at arms, certainly not
                    > Noble mention as such and this would lead me to think some at least were
                    > of common birth. It also mentions a name David Simson as a part of a
                    > unit of archers with no title or rank even further indicating probable
                    > common birth i should think. It also mentions a number in the region of
                    > 100 men total with an elite group of 25 and 74 archers although this
                    > seems to have been a bit later in the units history. .
                    >
                    > Baron Percival
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: John edgerton
                    > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you.
                    >
                    > Jon
                    >
                    > On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Keith Crawley wrote:
                    >
                    > > Check out the Wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%
                    > 89cossaisethis seems to at least hint at the officers having been
                    > noble.
                    > >
                    > > Baron Percival
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: John edgerton
                    > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Cc: SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:36 PM
                    > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Scottish Guard of Archers
                    > >
                    > > The Scottish Guard (Garde Écossaise) was created by Charles VII in
                    > 1422, and was the personal guard of Kings of France for many years.
                    > The Scottish Guard had a number of archers in it.
                    > >
                    > > I have been able to find reference to the captains of the guard
                    > being nobles. What I would like to know is if the regular archer
                    > members of the guard were also of noble birth. Given the duties they
                    > had
                    > > guarding and attending the king it would seem most likely that they
                    > were at least of the lesser Scottish nobility.
                    > >
                    > > Does anyone have any information and preferably source material to
                    > which they can refer me that can show that they were or were not of
                    > noble birth?
                    > >
                    > > I am trying to put together some documented information to help
                    > counter the misconception that all medieval european military
                    > archers were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show
                    > that there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble
                    > class. I am looking for information for other countries and
                    > additional sources for those I have found so far.
                    > >
                    > > Thank you for any help you can give.
                    > >
                    > > Jon
                    > >
                    > > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West Archer Champion, Mists, Esfenn
                    > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
                    > cunning of mind.
                    > >
                  • Keith Crawley
                    Here is a link http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/templar.htm that puts an interesting Templar spin on things. Don t know what if any facts are drawn on by the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
                      Here is a link http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/templar.htm that puts an interesting Templar spin on things. Don't know what if any facts are drawn on by the author who ever it is but it sure makes for an interesting theory when tied in with other Scottish Templar beliefs/myths.

                      Baron Percival



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Logan McKnight
                      If you are doing research on the subject of noble archers, I strongly suggest you pick up The Great Warbow by Matthew Strickland and Robert Hardy. I am
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 5, 2007
                        If you are doing research on the subject of 'noble' archers, I
                        strongly suggest you pick up 'The Great Warbow' by Matthew Strickland
                        and Robert Hardy. I am reading it now and there is a very thorough
                        chapter on the English Mounted Archer and the rise of the Archer in
                        social status and social mobility.

                        While it does show a large number of recruited archers from the
                        common folk, what it indicates is a growing trend that capable
                        archers could ascend the social ladder, becoming minor gentry in the
                        process.

                        There are also two or three sections on Scottish Archery that may
                        help with background on the Scottish forces serving in France, as
                        well as in their homeland. It also has an interesting argument,
                        backed up with archaeological finds as well as documents from the
                        period that indicate William Wallace as being a formidable archer,
                        and the longbow being his prefered weapon. They have even found
                        Wallace's seal which bears a bow and arrow, lending support to their
                        argument.

                        Also, are you familiar with the 'Jodrell Pass'? Again this is
                        English but you said your research extended beyond that Scottish
                        unit. The Jodrell pass was a document of passage bearing Edward, the
                        Black Prince's personal seal, allowing a mounted archer named Jodrell
                        passage home to england. What this pass indicates to historians is
                        that the archers of higher standing were very well thought of and
                        afforded the same luxuries and respect as many of the knights/men-at-
                        arms.

                        All of these things are discussed in 'the Great Warbow' and the
                        bibliography of that book contains an incredibly deep well of other
                        sources to pour over. Good luck in your research, I look forward to
                        perhaps hearing mroe about it.

                        Godfrey McKnight, the Archer
                      • John edgerton
                        Around 25 to 100 depending upon the time period. The nobility in the guard would not have been the ruling nobility, just the sons or other relatives. Jon ...
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                          Around 25 to 100 depending upon the time period. The nobility in the
                          guard would not have been the ruling nobility, just the sons or other
                          relatives.

                          Jon

                          On Dec 4, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Keith Crawley wrote:

                          > How many bodies were in the Garde at any one time? If this was a
                          > small personal body guard one could expect perhaps a couple hundred
                          > at best and these sorts of numbers could certainly have come from
                          > the Scottish Nobility with little impact on Scotland herself.
                          > However if this was a regimental or larger sized unit the sheer
                          > numbers would lead one to think some at least must have been common
                          > soldiers. If it was totally made up of Nobles who was left back in
                          > Scotland to run things. At this time in History what would
                          > Scotland's population have been and a better question how many
                          > Noble families were there to feed such a machine fresh bodies on a
                          > regular basis as they were killed off in some of the battles? It
                          > isn't the proof you seek but I'm thinking unless this was a very
                          > small elite unit that it would by necessity have to be made up of
                          > nobles as officers and common soldiers filling out the rank and file.
                          >
                          > Baron Percival
                          > Baron of Septentria
                          > Archer Champion to TRM Trumbrand and Kayla Rex et Regina Ealdormere
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • John edgerton
                          I intend to post it here when it is done and also put it in the files section. Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                            I intend to post it here when it is done and also put it in the files
                            section.

                            Jon

                            On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:14 AM, loreleiElkins@... wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > Jon,
                            >
                            > Please do share your information with us all here when you do
                            > complete your
                            > work. And, thank you for the undertaking.
                            >
                            > Lorelei
                            >
                            > In a message dated 12/4/2007 1:37:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                            > sirjon1@... writes:
                            >
                            > am trying to put together some documented information to help
                            > counter the misconception that all medieval european military archers
                            > were just peasants. I have so far found some sources to show that
                            > there were Spanish, Italian and French archers of the noble class. I
                            > am looking for information for other countries and additional sources
                            > for those I have found so far.
                            >
                            > Thank you for any help you can give.
                            >
                            > Jon
                            >
                            > Lorelei
                            >
                            > **************************************Check out AOL's list of
                            > 2007's hottest
                            > products.
                            > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?
                            > NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John edgerton
                            The Garde Écossaise were not just a company of archers they were part of the kings personal guard and it seems were in attendance on him at times other than
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                              The Garde Écossaise were not just a company of archers they were part
                              of the kings personal guard and it seems were in attendance on him at
                              times other than in battle. Such duties would suggest they would
                              have been mainly of nobel birth and not just commoners.

                              Jon

                              On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:33 AM, <caleb@...> <caleb@...>
                              wrote:

                              > I checked through my library last night and could not find anything
                              > about
                              > nobles marching into battle as just archers. Good King Harry paid his
                              > archers 6 pennies a day for his first campaign into France, where
                              > Knights
                              > were paid 2 shillings a day. Barons were paid 4 shillings and higher
                              > ranking members of nobility were paid even more. If these rates were
                              > common across Europe, I don't think we will see any documentation of
                              > nobles being hired as archers: they would be paid more money to be
                              > hired
                              > at their rank. The increased money would cover horses, household
                              > members,
                              > armor, etc. I would imagine that while they did not fight major
                              > battles
                              > with bows or crossbows, the nobility might use them during a siege
                              > where
                              > they would have nothing else to do while artiliary and siege
                              > engines were
                              > working.
                              >
                              > I did find a refence to some archer nobility:
                              >
                              > "The Company of Scottish Archers was formed in 1676 and is possibly
                              > the
                              > oldest sporting body in Britain today. It was granted a royal
                              > charter by
                              > Queen Anne and drew its membership from the aristocracy, gentry and
                              > professional classes of Edinburgh. "
                              > http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/archers.html
                              >
                              > "Among Viking armies, however, even kings fought with bows. For
                              > example,
                              > at the great sea battle of Skold in 1000 AD, when Norwegian King Olav
                              > Trygvasson was cornered by his enemies and killed, during the long
                              > day's
                              > battle King Olav fought mostly from the raised rear quarterdeck of his
                              > great warship the Long Serpent, alternately throwing spears and
                              > shooting
                              > arrows at his attackers."
                              > http://www.strongbowsaga.com/showwik.asp?WikID=38
                              >
                              > "My point being that the archers, even at the low end, were paid
                              > specialists, not peasant levies. I haven't found a picture of an
                              > armored
                              > archer with his own arms(yet), but I'm working on it. When Henry II
                              > conquered Ireland, Richard de Clare, Earl of Pembroke (which
                              > Earldom was a
                              > traditional source of archer levies) had the epithet 'Strongbow',
                              > because
                              > he was reputed to draw the strongest bow in the kingdom. I find it
                              > hard to
                              > believe that he could get a name for his archery without using the
                              > bow a
                              > *lot*, and in war; clearly, it isn't improper for a nobleman to be an
                              > archer."
                              > http://www.florilegium.org/files/ARCHERY/archery-msg.html
                              >
                              > THL Caleb Reynolds
                              > Scarlet Guard of the Kingdom of AEthelmearc
                              > King's Archery Champion


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • mark s graves
                              i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing and maybe
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                                have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing
                                and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                                this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                              • John edgerton
                                At this point, no idea. Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                  At this point, no idea.

                                  Jon
                                  On Dec 6, 2007, at 11:11 AM, mark s graves wrote:

                                  > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards.
                                  > Where
                                  > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                                  > wearing
                                  > and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                                  > this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Rusty McMillan
                                  William, I m in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under Joan of Arc ,
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                    William,

                                    I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be
                                    coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under "Joan
                                    of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde Ecossaise".
                                    Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you
                                    should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this
                                    thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until much
                                    later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.

                                    Randal of Camusfearna

                                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, mark s graves <williamross3@...>
                                    wrote:

                                    i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                                    have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                                    wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish
                                    and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                  • ronan mackee
                                    Hello When I was doing research on archers I came across information on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of these duties was
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                      Hello

                                      When I was doing research on archers I came across information on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the king correct ?



                                      the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free encyclopedia web sight under yeoman



                                      I hope this helps

                                      Ronan Mackay




                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: Rusty McMillan <randal_of_camusfearna@...>
                                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 2:17:59 PM
                                      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers














                                      William,



                                      I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be

                                      coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches under "Joan

                                      of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde Ecossaise".

                                      Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you

                                      should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this

                                      thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until much

                                      later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.



                                      Randal of Camusfearna



                                      --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, mark s graves <williamross3@ ...>

                                      wrote:



                                      i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where

                                      have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were

                                      wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish

                                      and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye














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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • John edgerton
                                      Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The Scottish Guard of Archers,
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                        Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott
                                        might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The
                                        Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect
                                        and serve the king of France.

                                        Jon

                                        On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:

                                        > Hello
                                        >
                                        > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on
                                        > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of
                                        > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my
                                        > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman
                                        > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the
                                        > king correct ?
                                        >
                                        > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free
                                        > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman
                                        >
                                        > I hope this helps
                                        >
                                        > Ronan Mackay


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • ronan mackee
                                        Thanks for clearing that up for me Ronan ... From: John edgerton To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                          Thanks for clearing that up for me


                                          Ronan

                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: John edgerton <sirjon1@...>
                                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers














                                          Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott

                                          might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The

                                          Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect

                                          and serve the king of France.



                                          Jon



                                          On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:



                                          > Hello

                                          >

                                          > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on

                                          > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of

                                          > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my

                                          > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman

                                          > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the

                                          > king correct ?

                                          >

                                          > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free

                                          > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman

                                          >

                                          > I hope this helps

                                          >

                                          > Ronan Mackay



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Edward deWitt
                                          FWIW Check the link out. It doesn t have anything to do with the Archery Guard, but it has mention of the Scots Archers during the fight for Independence(
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                            FWIW

                                            Check the link out. It doesn't have anything to do with the Archery Guard, but it has mention of the Scots Archers during the fight for Independence( Wallace and Bruce era). It refers to the Battle of Rosslyn, 1303.

                                            http://sinclair.quarterman.org/history/med/battleofrosslyn.html

                                            Edward

                                            gene

                                            ronan mackee <ronanmackee@...> wrote: Thanks for clearing that up for me

                                            Ronan

                                            ----- Original Message ----
                                            From: John edgerton <sirjon1@...>
                                            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:07:15 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers

                                            Well, one major difference would be that normally the king a Scott

                                            might be sworn to protect would be the king of Scotland. The

                                            Scottish Guard of Archers, Garde Ecossaise, were hired to protect

                                            and serve the king of France.

                                            Jon

                                            On Dec 6, 2007, at 8:00 PM, ronan mackee wrote:

                                            > Hello

                                            >

                                            > When I was doing research on archers I came across information on

                                            > yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of

                                            > these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my

                                            > question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman

                                            > because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the

                                            > king correct ?

                                            >

                                            > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the free

                                            > encyclopedia web sight under yeoman

                                            >

                                            > I hope this helps

                                            >

                                            > Ronan Mackay

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                                          • arturdubh
                                            I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split my time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the Scottish Garde
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                              I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split my
                                              time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the
                                              Scottish Garde couldn't be made up of at least "minor nobility"
                                              (perhaps even the "extra" sons of the higher nobility - those who
                                              wouldn't other-wise have much chance to "prove" themselves). Would a
                                              King really be able to trust a mere commoner with his life -- and
                                              would he want to? It was a different time, with a different mind-
                                              set....

                                              Also, it is never wise to trust Wkipedia as your primary source of
                                              information. Always check out any and all reference links provided in
                                              Wikipedia articles; some people like to add little "surprises" to
                                              those Wikipedia entries -- I nearly got burned by one of
                                              those "surprises" when I foolishly copy/pasted a portion of a
                                              Wikipedia article.

                                              --Artúr


                                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, ronan mackee <ronanmackee@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hello
                                              >
                                              > When I was doing research on archers I came across information
                                              on yeoman in the middle ages. They talk about there duties and one of
                                              these duties was protecting the king and other nobility. So my
                                              question is Is there a difference from Scottish guard and Yeoman
                                              because as long you had rank and title your job was to serve the king
                                              correct ?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > the information that I have found was on the wikipedia the
                                              free encyclopedia web sight under yeoman
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I hope this helps
                                              >
                                              > Ronan Mackay
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message ----
                                              > From: Rusty McMillan <randal_of_camusfearna@...>
                                              > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 2:17:59 PM
                                              > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers
                                              >
                                              >
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                                              >
                                              > William,
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I'm in the same boat, persona wise. Most of the info seems to be
                                              >
                                              > coming from internet sources. I have done browser searches
                                              under "Joan
                                              >
                                              > of Arc", "Scottish Guard", "King Charles VII" and "Garde
                                              Ecossaise".
                                              >
                                              > Each of these will lead you to many source links. Of course, you
                                              >
                                              > should also check the links mentioned by others responding in this
                                              >
                                              > thread. So far, I have not seen much detail on the Guards until
                                              much
                                              >
                                              > later in their history, well after their service to Charles VII.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Randal of Camusfearna
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, mark s graves
                                              <williamross3@ ...>
                                              >
                                              > wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards.
                                              Where
                                              >
                                              > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were
                                              >
                                              > wearing and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am
                                              Scottish
                                              >
                                              > and have this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                              >
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                                            • jameswolfden
                                              In The Great Warbow by Strickland and Hardy, there is picture of Charles VII and the Garde Ecossaise by Jean Fouquet from The Hours of Etienne Chevalier. Here
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Dec 6, 2007
                                                In The Great Warbow by Strickland and Hardy, there is picture of Charles VII and the Garde
                                                Ecossaise by Jean Fouquet from The Hours of Etienne Chevalier. Here is an online link to
                                                the same picture.

                                                http://expositions.bnf.fr/fouquet/grand/f068.htm

                                                We are also given this description attributed to Berry Herald in Narratives of the Expulsion
                                                of the English from Normandy:

                                                "And before them, in the first rank, were the archers of the King of France, all clad in
                                                jackets covered with gold embroidery, of the colour of red, white, and green."

                                                In Service,
                                                James Wolfden


                                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, mark s graves <williamross3@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > i have been following the e-mails on the Scottish Archery Guards. Where
                                                > have you been getting the infor. Any idea what the officers were wearing
                                                > and maybe what the ranks of the officers were? I am Scottish and have
                                                > this type of persona in the SCA. William Ross of Skye
                                                >
                                              • rolf_hobart
                                                To answer your questions, Yes and Yes. As an example I m summarizing Strickland in The Great Warbow page 258. Richard II maintained a personal bodyguard of
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Dec 7, 2007
                                                  To answer your questions, Yes and Yes.
                                                  As an example I'm summarizing Strickland in "The Great Warbow" page
                                                  258. Richard II maintained a personal bodyguard of Cheshire yeoman
                                                  archers. His familiarity with them, and their subsequent uppity and
                                                  thuggish behavior caused them to be unpopular with the English
                                                  nobility and provided Henry Bolingbroke another justification for his
                                                  insurrection.

                                                  Rolf Hobart

                                                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "arturdubh" <nasionnaich@...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > I have been (barely) keeping up with this, as I am trying to split
                                                  my
                                                  > time between three or five other things... I see no reason why the
                                                  > Scottish Garde couldn't be made up of at least "minor nobility"
                                                  > (perhaps even the "extra" sons of the higher nobility - those who
                                                  > wouldn't other-wise have much chance to "prove" themselves). Would
                                                  a
                                                  > King really be able to trust a mere commoner with his life -- and
                                                  > would he want to? It was a different time, with a different mind-
                                                  > set....
                                                  >
                                                  > Also, it is never wise to trust Wkipedia as your primary source of
                                                  > information. Always check out any and all reference links provided
                                                  in
                                                  > Wikipedia articles; some people like to add little "surprises" to
                                                  > those Wikipedia entries -- I nearly got burned by one of
                                                  > those "surprises" when I foolishly copy/pasted a portion of a
                                                  > Wikipedia article.
                                                  >
                                                  > --Artúr
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • John edgerton
                                                  I would recommend the Great Warbow to anyone looking for a good source of medieval archery information. I may use some of the information rise of the archers
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Dec 7, 2007
                                                    I would recommend "the Great Warbow" to anyone looking for a good
                                                    source of medieval archery information.

                                                    I may use some of the information rise of the archers status if I
                                                    decide to expand the scope of my article.

                                                    Jon

                                                    On Dec 5, 2007, at 10:45 AM, Logan McKnight wrote:

                                                    > If you are doing research on the subject of 'noble' archers, I
                                                    > strongly suggest you pick up 'The Great Warbow' by Matthew Strickland
                                                    > and Robert Hardy. I am reading it now and there is a very thorough
                                                    > chapter on the English Mounted Archer and the rise of the Archer in
                                                    > social status and social mobility.
                                                    >
                                                    > While it does show a large number of recruited archers from the
                                                    > common folk, what it indicates is a growing trend that capable
                                                    > archers could ascend the social ladder, becoming minor gentry in the
                                                    > process.
                                                    >
                                                    > There are also two or three sections on Scottish Archery that may
                                                    > help with background on the Scottish forces serving in France, as
                                                    > well as in their homeland. It also has an interesting argument,
                                                    > backed up with archaeological finds as well as documents from the
                                                    > period that indicate William Wallace as being a formidable archer,
                                                    > and the longbow being his prefered weapon. They have even found
                                                    > Wallace's seal which bears a bow and arrow, lending support to their
                                                    > argument.
                                                    >
                                                    > Also, are you familiar with the 'Jodrell Pass'? Again this is
                                                    > English but you said your research extended beyond that Scottish
                                                    > unit. The Jodrell pass was a document of passage bearing Edward, the
                                                    > Black Prince's personal seal, allowing a mounted archer named Jodrell
                                                    > passage home to england. What this pass indicates to historians is
                                                    > that the archers of higher standing were very well thought of and
                                                    > afforded the same luxuries and respect as many of the knights/men-at-
                                                    > arms.
                                                    >
                                                    > All of these things are discussed in 'the Great Warbow' and the
                                                    > bibliography of that book contains an incredibly deep well of other
                                                    > sources to pour over. Good luck in your research, I look forward to
                                                    > perhaps hearing mroe about it.
                                                    >
                                                    > Godfrey McKnight, the Archer
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >



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                                                  • J. Hughes
                                                    The disertation was done in 1972 and has 423 pages. But my sources do not list who has it or what institution it was done for. I am sure the article is a
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
                                                      The disertation was done in 1972 and has 423 pages. But my sources do not list who has it or what institution it was done for. I am sure the article is a watered down version.

                                                      Charles O'Connor


                                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                                      From: Bruce <obsidian@...>
                                                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:20:26 PM
                                                      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Scottish Guard of Archers

                                                      Greetings

                                                      Well... dunno if it's the same document, but there is this:

                                                      Richard II's Archers of the Crown
                                                      James L. Gillespie
                                                      The Journal of British Studies, Vol. 18, No. 2 (Spring, 1979), pp. 14-
                                                      29

                                                      I hasten to add that I don't have a copy of this myself, but I do
                                                      have the reference, so anyone with access to this journal might look
                                                      it up?

                                                      Nigel

                                                      --- In SCA-Archery@ yahoogroups. com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@.. .>
                                                      wrote:

                                                      >
                                                      > I have been cursing myself for letting this slip past me but:
                                                      years ago,
                                                      > while beginning my researching of archers, I came across a listing
                                                      in I
                                                      > think was Dissertated Abstracts international, which was a
                                                      collection of
                                                      > Masters and PHD theses. The interesting one was titled "The
                                                      Cheshire Archers
                                                      > of Richard II and the creation of Bastard Feudalism". At the time
                                                      (the late
                                                      > 80s) I didn't think it worth the $35.00 to pay for this. I have
                                                      since been
                                                      > unable to try to find this again. This might be worth looking into
                                                      for this
                                                      > project. I keep intending to look for this again, as well as any
                                                      theses on
                                                      > medieval banner construction.
                                                      > Ancel





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                                                    • runewald
                                                      On Dec 11, 2007, at 12:44 PM, J. Hughes ... Just because....I Googled for The Journal of British Studies and got a list of hits. It is possible to access
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
                                                        On Dec 11, 2007, at 12:44 PM, J. Hughes ...

                                                        Just because....I Googled for "The Journal of British Studies" and got
                                                        a list of hits. It is possible to access the various volumes, but
                                                        appears you need a Library which has an account. I would suspect that
                                                        most University Libraries have accounts.

                                                        Just a thought....

                                                        Lord Robert Runewald
                                                        Barony of Lochmere
                                                        Kingdom of Atlantia
                                                        >



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                                                      • Edward deWitt
                                                        This isn t specific to the Scottish Archer Guard , but it does deal with Scots nobility as archers in late 1500s
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Dec 11, 2007
                                                          This isn't specific to the Scottish Archer Guard , but it does deal with Scots nobility as archers in late 1500s

                                                          http://www.electricscotland.com/history/genhist/hist35.html


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