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Re: IKAC Status and period shoots

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  • David
    I would say this hit the target... speaking as someone trying to establish an archery/live weapons group I know that cost is playing a big part in what people
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 8, 2007
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      I would say this hit the target... speaking as someone trying to
      establish an archery/live weapons group I know that cost is playing
      a big part in what people purchase to get started. I know when I
      started in heavy fighting most of my armor that wasn't visibly
      exposed was plastic because it was much less expensive and got me on
      the field faster. I am encountering the same with establishing a
      group... bow, arrows (fiber glass and wood) in my case targets and
      back stop materials, then you have those that also want to do the
      throwing knives and axes (I'd toss spears in but to be honest I
      haven't found a place to buy them). Just like starting in heavy
      fighting the outlay can be several hundred dollars but in this case
      for something you may or may not use more than a few times a year,
      granted once established where pratices can occur, etc. it will be a
      better seen investment. Right now for a lot of people its "I'll wait
      and see" which makes it tough to get started. So pointing out the
      period bows which look to require more skill, patience and practice
      in my case would be a detriment to getting a group started.

      The newbie 2 cents ....

      Thanks
      Egon DerRichter

      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "John and Carol Atkins"
      <cogworks@...> wrote:
      >
      > For my two cents worth on the subject of period shoots, I think
      they
      > would be great, BUT.............. Here's that word. In my area
      we
      > have had many folks join our group (and the SCA) through/becasue
      of
      > archery. As we all know to get reasonably good at archery it
      takes
      > lots of practice. Modern recurve bows "help" the archer. By that
      I
      > mean, they are typically easier to shoot for a variety of
      reasons.
      > Yes, I can buy a wood bow from any number of sources on the
      Internet
      > or in person for under $100 but the truth is, these bows are
      > difficult to shoot. They are more critical for setting up and
      > matching arrow spine to draw weight, etc., etc. I'M NOT KNOCKING
      > WOOD BOWS. I have 14 bows hanging in my garage right now, some
      are
      > all wood and real beauties. But new archers are looking for some
      > degree of success to stay encouraged to stay with the sport. How
      > many of us have seen a new archer doing the happy dance because
      > they "finally hit the target" (forget for what score) at 20 yards?
      >
      > My point here is period is fine, for those of us who have been in
      > archery for a while and have developed a degree of skill at the
      > sport. For new people let's not hamper them with rules requiring
      > expensive equipment that is more difficult to use.
      >
      > How many fighters would have become active fighters if the only
      way
      > they could have stepped on the field is with "period" armor? The
      > guy at Pennsic who sells plastic armor does a fine business for a
      > reason - he serves the new fighter community. As they get better,
      > like archers, they improve their equipment to a more period
      > appearance. Perhaps that is the goal for the archery community.
      > Get them in, get them hooked, get them improved (meaning more
      > period).
      >
      > cog
      >
    • Ben Reeder
      Speaking as a re-newbie, after being out for 10 years or so before getting back in, the true aim is indeed to get the newbie to the awesome wood bow with no
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 8, 2007
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        Speaking as a re-newbie, after being out for 10 years or so before getting back in, the true aim is indeed to get the newbie to the awesome wood bow with no shelf and horn nocks, etc. But like anything worthwhile, this is a journey, not a job interview. We don't show up to the field that first time ready to win our first IKAC competition or walk away with Crown tourney under our belts. So, yeah, start with that fiberglass bow. Just dont' stay with it. And, when we get that first decent recurve, we become the example that the next set of fresh faced newbies comes to emulate. When we get to the awesome longbow with horn tips and that set of hand fletched arrows, we become what we once tried to be. I don't think that journey would be as satisfying if we were required to start at the top and coast along. Period shoots are ways to recreate teh Middle Ages, yeah, and great to have as a part of period archery. But, the more important part here, at least in my eyes, isn't
        as much the target as the archer. The target just gets shot at. The archer is the one who displays the best parts of the current Middle Ages, whether in a down to the stitches recreation of a period archer's clothing or in a t-tunic and wal-mart firberglass bow and quiver. In the end, people can see the spirit we bring to the line, and they can see that spirit in the way we progress as archers. The targets represent that spirit, yes, in that they show our dedication to our sport (for lack of a better word). But they are only a part of our overall contribution to the Society.

        Just my two schillings worth,

        Jon Strongebowe
        Shire of Oakheart, Calontir


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John edgerton
        Well said. Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 8, 2007
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          Well said.

          Jon
          On Nov 8, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Ben Reeder wrote:

          > Speaking as a re-newbie, after being out for 10 years or so before
          > getting back in, the true aim is indeed to get the newbie to the
          > awesome wood bow with no shelf and horn nocks, etc. But like
          > anything worthwhile, this is a journey, not a job interview. We
          > don't show up to the field that first time ready to win our first
          > IKAC competition or walk away with Crown tourney under our belts.
          > So, yeah, start with that fiberglass bow. Just dont' stay with it.
          > And, when we get that first decent recurve, we become the example
          > that the next set of fresh faced newbies comes to emulate. When we
          > get to the awesome longbow with horn tips and that set of hand
          > fletched arrows, we become what we once tried to be. I don't think
          > that journey would be as satisfying if we were required to start at
          > the top and coast along. Period shoots are ways to recreate teh
          > Middle Ages, yeah, and great to have as a part of period archery.
          > But, the more important part here, at least in my eyes, isn't
          > as much the target as the archer. The target just gets shot at. The
          > archer is the one who displays the best parts of the current Middle
          > Ages, whether in a down to the stitches recreation of a period
          > archer's clothing or in a t-tunic and wal-mart firberglass bow and
          > quiver. In the end, people can see the spirit we bring to the line,
          > and they can see that spirit in the way we progress as archers. The
          > targets represent that spirit, yes, in that they show our
          > dedication to our sport (for lack of a better word). But they are
          > only a part of our overall contribution to the Society.
          >
          > Just my two schillings worth,
          >
          > Jon Strongebowe
          > Shire of Oakheart, Calontir
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Carolus
          Great post. This is the spirit I have grown up with in the SCA and try to promote. Many folks tend to forget this is a hobby many only play at for a few
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 8, 2007
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            Great post. This is the spirit I have grown up with in the SCA and
            try to promote. Many folks tend to forget this is a hobby many only
            play at for a few hours a month or week. Our events are nothing more
            than costume party socials to give us a place to share our real
            accomplishments in education. That a small few become very
            proficient in a particular activity is wonderful and the fact that
            they can present a model worthy of inspiration and emulation is
            admirable. But those people need to recognize that they are a very
            special elite. Most of the rest of the participants will never reach
            that level. We need to keep our sport accessible and inviting to the
            masses. I have been shooting over 40 years now and have watched
            archery fall from a common participant sport to a nearly invisible
            one, the SCA is one of the best places to introduce it and expand
            it. If we make it too exclusive to the common member, we sill soon
            find it unavailable to the rest of us as well.
            Carolus

            At 10:19 AM 11/8/2007, you wrote:

            >Speaking as a re-newbie, after being out for 10 years or so before
            >getting back in, the true aim is indeed to get the newbie to the
            >awesome wood bow with no shelf and horn nocks, etc. But like
            >anything worthwhile, this is a journey, not a job interview. We
            >don't show up to the field that first time ready to win our first
            >IKAC competition or walk away with Crown tourney under our belts.
            >So, yeah, start with that fiberglass bow. Just dont' stay with it.
            >And, when we get that first decent recurve, we become the example
            >that the next set of fresh faced newbies comes to emulate. When we
            >get to the awesome longbow with horn tips and that set of hand
            >fletched arrows, we become what we once tried to be. I don't think
            >that journey would be as satisfying if we were required to start at
            >the top and coast along. Period shoots are ways to recreate teh
            >Middle Ages, yeah, and great to have as a part of period archery.
            >But, the more important part here, at least in my eyes, isn't
            >as much the target as the archer. The target just gets shot at. The
            >archer is the one who displays the best parts of the current Middle
            >Ages, whether in a down to the stitches recreation of a period
            >archer's clothing or in a t-tunic and wal-mart firberglass bow and
            >quiver. In the end, people can see the spirit we bring to the line,
            >and they can see that spirit in the way we progress as archers. The
            >targets represent that spirit, yes, in that they show our dedication
            >to our sport (for lack of a better word). But they are only a part
            >of our overall contribution to the Society.
            >
            >Just my two schillings worth,
            >
            >Jon Strongebowe
            >Shire of Oakheart, Calontir
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >No virus found in this incoming message.
            >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            >Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.24/1117 - Release Date:
            >11/7/2007 10:52 PM


            --
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          • Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
            Jon, Exactly the way it should be done. My first bow ever was in 1999, and it was a PSE Impala, with store bought target arrows. As my skill and knowledge
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 9, 2007
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              Jon,

              Exactly the way it should be done.

              My first bow ever was in 1999, and it was a PSE Impala, with 'store bought'
              target arrows. As my skill and knowledge increased, I dropped a modern aspect and
              adopted a more period one, in shooting or building tackle. So for most of this,
              I am self taught, as there was really nobody in my region offering classes. I did
              take bow classes from two well known bowyers(Jay St. Charles/John Strunk).

              This I kept doing in continuous cycles, till now I build my own longbows, my own
              arrows, my own strings, tool my own leather accessories. It was the path I chose
              from the very beginning.

              And absolutely nobody has to go beyond the minimum requirements for garb and
              equipment, if that's what they want to do. However, I tell people there is
              absolutely nothing like taking a shoot, with equipment that you have built yourself.

              What I want to do, is show that the 'period path' is fun, exciting and very
              rewarding. I would like to think I've been fairly successful, based on the number
              of people asking for classes.

              As for period shoots, there is no reason to limit ourselves. I've run a clout
              shoot right before a 'who can drain the gallon zip-lock bag first' shoot. Or the
              quintain shoot I developed over 6 years ago.... it's an arrow eater, but that's
              part of the challenge and fun. Don't get me wrong, I would rather shoot a clout
              or york, or a roving range any day of the week, but there are so many other
              shoots that are not period, that offer a great deal of fun and .

              Well met Jon.

              Godwin fitzGilbert de Strigoil


              >>Speaking as a re-newbie, after being out for 10 years or so before
              >
              >>getting back in, the true aim is indeed to get the newbie to the
              >
              >>awesome wood bow with no shelf and horn nocks, etc. But like
              >
              >>anything worthwhile, this is a journey, not a job interview. We
              >
              >>don't show up to the field that first time ready to win our first
              >
              >>IKAC competition or walk away with Crown tourney under our belts.
              >
              >>So, yeah, start with that fiberglass bow. Just dont' stay with it.
              >
              >>And, when we get that first decent recurve, we become the example
              >
              >>that the next set of fresh faced newbies comes to emulate. When we
              >
              >>get to the awesome longbow with horn tips and that set of hand
              >
              >>fletched arrows, we become what we once tried to be. I don't think
              >
              >>that journey would be as satisfying if we were required to start at
              >
              >>the top and coast along. Period shoots are ways to recreate teh
              >
              >>Middle Ages, yeah, and great to have as a part of period archery.
              >
              >>But, the more important part here, at least in my eyes, isn't
              >
              >>as much the target as the archer. The target just gets shot at. The
              >
              >>archer is the one who displays the best parts of the current Middle
              >
              >>Ages, whether in a down to the stitches recreation of a period
              >
              >>archer's clothing or in a t-tunic and wal-mart firberglass bow and
              >
              >>quiver. In the end, people can see the spirit we bring to the line,
              >
              >>and they can see that spirit in the way we progress as archers. The
              >
              >>targets represent that spirit, yes, in that they show our dedication
              >
              >>to our sport (for lack of a better word). But they are only a part
              >
              >>of our overall contribution to the Society.
              >
              >>
              >
              >>Just my two schillings worth,
              >
              >>
              >
              >>Jon Strongebowe
              >
              >>Shire of Oakheart, Calontir

              ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net
            • Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
              Jon, Exactly the way it should be done. My first bow ever was in 1999, and it was a PSE Impala, with store bought target arrows. As my skill and knowledge
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 9, 2007
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                Jon,

                Exactly the way it should be done.

                My first bow ever was in 1999, and it was a PSE Impala, with 'store bought'
                target arrows. As my skill and knowledge increased, I dropped a modern aspect and
                adopted a more period one, in shooting or building tackle. So for most of this,
                I am self taught, as there was really nobody in my region offering classes. I did
                take bow classes from two well known bowyers(Jay St. Charles/John Strunk).

                This I kept doing in continuous cycles, till now I build my own longbows, my own
                arrows, my own strings, tool my own leather accessories. It was the path I chose
                from the very beginning.

                And absolutely nobody has to go beyond the minimum requirements for garb and
                equipment, if that's what they want to do. However, I tell people there is
                absolutely nothing like taking a shoot, with equipment that you have built yourself.

                What I want to do, is show that the 'period path' is fun, exciting and very
                rewarding. I would like to think I've been fairly successful, based on the number
                of people asking for classes.

                As for period shoots, there is no reason to limit ourselves. I've run a clout
                shoot right before a 'who can drain the gallon zip-lock bag first' shoot. Or the
                quintain shoot I developed over 6 years ago.... it's an arrow eater, but that's
                part of the challenge and fun. Don't get me wrong, I would rather shoot a clout
                or york, or a roving range any day of the week, but there are so many other
                shoots that are not period, that offer a great deal of fun and camaraderie.

                Well met Jon.

                Godwin fitzGilbert de Strigoil


                >>Speaking as a re-newbie, after being out for 10 years or so before
                >
                >>getting back in, the true aim is indeed to get the newbie to the
                >
                >>awesome wood bow with no shelf and horn nocks, etc. But like
                >
                >>anything worthwhile, this is a journey, not a job interview. We
                >
                >>don't show up to the field that first time ready to win our first
                >
                >>IKAC competition or walk away with Crown tourney under our belts.
                >
                >>So, yeah, start with that fiberglass bow. Just dont' stay with it.
                >
                >>And, when we get that first decent recurve, we become the example
                >
                >>that the next set of fresh faced newbies comes to emulate. When we
                >
                >>get to the awesome longbow with horn tips and that set of hand
                >
                >>fletched arrows, we become what we once tried to be. I don't think
                >
                >>that journey would be as satisfying if we were required to start at
                >
                >>the top and coast along. Period shoots are ways to recreate teh
                >
                >>Middle Ages, yeah, and great to have as a part of period archery.
                >
                >>But, the more important part here, at least in my eyes, isn't
                >
                >>as much the target as the archer. The target just gets shot at. The
                >
                >>archer is the one who displays the best parts of the current Middle
                >
                >>Ages, whether in a down to the stitches recreation of a period
                >
                >>archer's clothing or in a t-tunic and wal-mart firberglass bow and
                >
                >>quiver. In the end, people can see the spirit we bring to the line,
                >
                >>and they can see that spirit in the way we progress as archers. The
                >
                >>targets represent that spirit, yes, in that they show our dedication
                >
                >>to our sport (for lack of a better word). But they are only a part
                >
                >>of our overall contribution to the Society.
                >
                >>
                >
                >>Just my two schillings worth,
                >
                >>
                >
                >>Jon Strongebowe
                >
                >>Shire of Oakheart, Calontir

                ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net
              • arturdubh
                One thing I didn t see covered in all the well-worded responses (I may have missed it, it is past time to get some sleep)... There are many people who wish to
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 7, 2007
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                  One thing I didn't see covered in all the well-worded responses (I
                  may have missed it, it is past time to get some sleep)...

                  There are many people who wish to use "period" equipment, but for
                  various reasons -- such as limited amounts of "extra" money after
                  paying bills, or no space or time in which to make their own
                  equipment -- are unable to acquire "period" equipment. Myself, when I
                  have the money I do not have the space, and when I have the space I
                  usually do not have the money; if I have the money and space, I
                  usually do not have the time. Now that I have the time to make my
                  own, I do not have the money (tools cost money, you know...I finally
                  got a piece of wood to use, though), and I no longer have the space
                  needed (some drying logs are taking it all up...).

                  There are many reasons to use "period" equipment -- and just as many
                  (if not more) why "period" equipment may be out of reach for many
                  people. Requiring archers at SCA Archery events to use only "period"
                  equipment (unless it actually IS a "specialty" event) would be akin
                  to requiring attendees at SCA events to wear only "period" clothing
                  made of "period" textiles sewn in only "period" patterns using
                  only "period" methods; not everyone will want to -- or be able to
                  afford to -- be that Authentic.

                  Just my opinion.

                  --Artúr


                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "John and Carol Atkins"
                  <cogworks@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > For my two cents worth on the subject of period shoots, I think
                  they
                  > would be great, BUT.............. Here's that word. In my area we
                  > have had many folks join our group (and the SCA) through/becasue of
                  > archery. As we all know to get reasonably good at archery it takes
                  > lots of practice. Modern recurve bows "help" the archer. By that
                  I
                  > mean, they are typically easier to shoot for a variety of reasons.
                  > Yes, I can buy a wood bow from any number of sources on the
                  Internet
                  > or in person for under $100 but the truth is, these bows are
                  > difficult to shoot. They are more critical for setting up and
                  > matching arrow spine to draw weight, etc., etc. I'M NOT KNOCKING
                  > WOOD BOWS. I have 14 bows hanging in my garage right now, some are
                  > all wood and real beauties. But new archers are looking for some
                  > degree of success to stay encouraged to stay with the sport. How
                  > many of us have seen a new archer doing the happy dance because
                  > they "finally hit the target" (forget for what score) at 20 yards?
                  >
                  > My point here is period is fine, for those of us who have been in
                  > archery for a while and have developed a degree of skill at the
                  > sport. For new people let's not hamper them with rules requiring
                  > expensive equipment that is more difficult to use.
                  >
                  > How many fighters would have become active fighters if the only way
                  > they could have stepped on the field is with "period" armor? The
                  > guy at Pennsic who sells plastic armor does a fine business for a
                  > reason - he serves the new fighter community. As they get better,
                  > like archers, they improve their equipment to a more period
                  > appearance. Perhaps that is the goal for the archery community.
                  > Get them in, get them hooked, get them improved (meaning more
                  > period).
                  >
                  > cog
                  >
                • jameswolfden
                  Your opinion is both valuable and a common one. But what I will add here is also common among those of us trying to promote the use of period gear. Nobody is
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 8, 2007
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                    Your opinion is both valuable and a common one. But what I will add here is also common
                    among those of us trying to promote the use of period gear.

                    Nobody is trying to restrict archery to only 'period' gear. I see it as a progression that
                    mirrors other aspects of one's involvement in the SCA.

                    I started with a Ragim Victory Takedown Recurve. I still have a Checkmate Recurve for
                    when I do combat archery. But my preference is to shoot period gear. My current target
                    bow is a Elm longbow I made myself. My arrows are port orford cedar with wrapped self
                    nocks and hand cut fletching.

                    By the same nature, my first garb was a tunic made of cotton/polyester blend and jogging
                    pants (100% synthetic). I now wear linen and/or wool braies, hose, tunic, and cotehardie. I
                    am working on some turnshoes. My drive is towards being more period both in my
                    equipment, my garb, and my approach to the A&S of archery.

                    If a newcomer asks me what bow should he get, I will steer him towards the modern
                    recurve. Of course, if he/she really wants to go with a longbow, I won't stop him.

                    I have promoted a period shoot at the Clinton War the past two years. It is open to all
                    archers and arbalests but only those shooting period gear may win the prize. I do ask the
                    archers to use the most period gear they have. The prize, one of Sir Jon's first minting of
                    the archer coin, does not have a great monetary value but holds a special significance
                    because it is the prize. One of the archers, Archos Thomas Lackland of Appledore, is also
                    a merchant who has donated prizes in addition to the coin. I am fairly liberal in deciding if
                    the gear is period. Next year, I plan on making some period gear that I can award to
                    highest finishing modern gear. Something like an arrow bag or three period arrows.

                    Lorenzo is looking at doing a period shoot as part of the IKAC but the IKAC still has the
                    Open class. Sir Jon has also suggested that the period shoot not be limited to period gear
                    but open to all gear. Again this is an idea to promote period archery (which is about more
                    than just the gear) without restricting other archers.

                    If you make your own arrows, a simple start towards period gear is self-nocked arrows.

                    In Service,
                    HL James Wolfden


                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "arturdubh" <nasionnaich@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Requiring archers at SCA Archery events to use only "period"
                    > equipment (unless it actually IS a "specialty" event) would be akin
                    > to requiring attendees at SCA events to wear only "period" clothing
                    > made of "period" textiles sewn in only "period" patterns using
                    > only "period" methods; not everyone will want to -- or be able to
                    > afford to -- be that Authentic.
                    >
                    > Just my opinion.
                    >
                    > --Artúr
                  • ld.blackmoon
                    greetings ... i ve seen lots of articles on how to make period self nocks using 1: a nifty nocker,2: hacksaw blades, 3: a dremil tool ,but none using a period
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 8, 2007
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                      greetings

                      >If you make your own arrows, a simple start towards period gear is self-nocked arrows.

                      >In Service,
                      >HL James Wolfden

                      i've seen lots of articles on how to make period self nocks using 1: a nifty nocker,2: hacksaw blades, 3: a dremil tool ,but none using a period tool, or technique . any idea where to look to find such an article ?? or perhaps pictures ? diagrams ?

                      be safe, be happy, have fun
                      arthur blackmoon

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: jameswolfden
                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 2:57 AM
                      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: IKAC Status and period shoots


                      Your opinion is both valuable and a common one. But what I will add here is also common
                      among those of us trying to promote the use of period gear.

                      Nobody is trying to restrict archery to only 'period' gear. I see it as a progression that
                      mirrors other aspects of one's involvement in the SCA.

                      I started with a Ragim Victory Takedown Recurve. I still have a Checkmate Recurve for
                      when I do combat archery. But my preference is to shoot period gear. My current target
                      bow is a Elm longbow I made myself. My arrows are port orford cedar with wrapped self
                      nocks and hand cut fletching.

                      By the same nature, my first garb was a tunic made of cotton/polyester blend and jogging
                      pants (100% synthetic). I now wear linen and/or wool braies, hose, tunic, and cotehardie. I
                      am working on some turnshoes. My drive is towards being more period both in my
                      equipment, my garb, and my approach to the A&S of archery.

                      If a newcomer asks me what bow should he get, I will steer him towards the modern
                      recurve. Of course, if he/she really wants to go with a longbow, I won't stop him.

                      I have promoted a period shoot at the Clinton War the past two years. It is open to all
                      archers and arbalests but only those shooting period gear may win the prize. I do ask the
                      archers to use the most period gear they have. The prize, one of Sir Jon's first minting of
                      the archer coin, does not have a great monetary value but holds a special significance
                      because it is the prize. One of the archers, Archos Thomas Lackland of Appledore, is also
                      a merchant who has donated prizes in addition to the coin. I am fairly liberal in deciding if
                      the gear is period. Next year, I plan on making some period gear that I can award to
                      highest finishing modern gear. Something like an arrow bag or three period arrows.

                      Lorenzo is looking at doing a period shoot as part of the IKAC but the IKAC still has the
                      Open class. Sir Jon has also suggested that the period shoot not be limited to period gear
                      but open to all gear. Again this is an idea to promote period archery (which is about more
                      than just the gear) without restricting other archers.

                      If you make your own arrows, a simple start towards period gear is self-nocked arrows.

                      In Service,
                      HL James Wolfden

                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "arturdubh" <nasionnaich@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Requiring archers at SCA Archery events to use only "period"
                      > equipment (unless it actually IS a "specialty" event) would be akin
                      > to requiring attendees at SCA events to wear only "period" clothing
                      > made of "period" textiles sewn in only "period" patterns using
                      > only "period" methods; not everyone will want to -- or be able to
                      > afford to -- be that Authentic.
                      >
                      > Just my opinion.
                      >
                      > --Artúr






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                    • jameswolfden
                      No, I have not found any period documentation discussing the actual how-to s of either fletchering or bowyering. I think this is where we have to look at the
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 8, 2007
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                        No, I have not found any period documentation discussing the actual how-to's of either
                        fletchering or bowyering. I think this is where we have to look at the evidence of the
                        artifacts that exist and the tools around at the time and make educated guess.

                        It was likely cut with a bow saw similar to the hacksaw method. Jigs might have been used
                        but the skill of medieval artisan producing thousands of arrows was probably better than
                        those of ours where we might make a couple of dozen arrows.

                        That said, the first step should be to make some self nocks using whatever method works.
                        Then experiment on the period techniques and tools later. At events, it is bad form to pull
                        out the magnifying glass and check whether the stitching on garb is hand sewn or
                        machine sewn... unless it is an Arts and Science competition entry.

                        If you show up on the range with a dozen self nocks and I ask you how you made them
                        and you reply that you worked up a jig on your table saw that lets you do a dozen in one
                        pass, I'm still going to go "Cool, can you send me a picture of the jig?"

                        James Wolfden


                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "ld.blackmoon" <ld.blackmoon@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > i've seen lots of articles on how to make period self nocks using 1: a nifty nocker,2:
                        hacksaw blades, 3: a dremil tool ,but none using a period tool, or technique . any idea
                        where to look to find such an article ?? or perhaps pictures ? diagrams ?
                        >
                        > be safe, be happy, have fun
                        > arthur blackmoon
                      • atruemark@aol.com
                        I concur with James conclusion regarding documentation for either self-nocks or fletching. Apparently either the activity was of such base nature that
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 8, 2007
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                          I concur with James' conclusion regarding documentation for either
                          self-nocks or fletching. Apparently either the activity was of such base nature that
                          chroniclers felt it unworthy of documentation, or it was a guild activity and
                          medieval guilds were word-of-mouth and very secretive. In fact, Roger
                          Ascham makes a reference to this very fact in his book when he says that
                          (paraphrasing as I don't have the material in front of me) he doesn't want to
                          antagonize the fletchers (guild) by giving away their secrets. So I would conclude
                          that our lack of archival information is probably due mainly to the latter and
                          that we must, as James states, refer to the actual artifacts to try to
                          determine a period method.

                          Having said that, a survey of European tool technology of that time period
                          has surely been done...from that it may be possible to extrapolate a potential
                          answer to the question. Anyone out there a specialist in European tool
                          technology from about 1200 to 1500 A.D.?

                          Andras



                          **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Sheri Rees
                          When I ve had this discussion with Sir Aethelred or Master Gordon in the past, they seem to concur that many simple hand tools (saws, files, carving knives) we
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 8, 2007
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                            When I've had this discussion with Sir Aethelred or Master Gordon in
                            the past, they seem to concur that many simple hand tools (saws,
                            files, carving knives) we have now were known in that time
                            period. It's just that some of those same simple hand tools have
                            gone out of modern popularity due to new, electric (and therefore
                            exciting and maybe dangerous) tools.

                            We have a couple books on the subject, if you make it over here
                            sometime for shooting. Or if I remember, I can try to bring them to
                            Ursalmas (I might need a reminder closer to the event). Or corner
                            one of the above mentioned at AnTir Twelfth Night, I'm sure they'd
                            both appreciate the distraction from meetings.

                            Shadhra

                            At 01:02 PM 12/8/2007, you wrote:
                            >I concur with James' conclusion regarding documentation for either
                            >self-nocks or fletching. Apparently either the activity was of such
                            >base nature that
                            >chroniclers felt it unworthy of documentation, or it was a
                            >guild activity and
                            >medieval guilds were word-of-mouth and very secretive. In fact, Roger
                            >Ascham makes a reference to this very fact in his book when he says that
                            >(paraphrasing as I don't have the material in front of me) he
                            >doesn't want to
                            >antagonize the fletchers (guild) by giving away their secrets. So
                            >I would conclude
                            >that our lack of archival information is probably due mainly to the
                            >latter and
                            >that we must, as James states, refer to the actual artifacts to try to
                            >determine a period method.
                            >
                            >Having said that, a survey of European tool technology of that time period
                            >has surely been done...from that it may be possible to extrapolate a
                            >potential
                            >answer to the question. Anyone out there a specialist in European tool
                            >technology from about 1200 to 1500 A.D.?
                            >
                            >Andras
                          • arturdubh
                            ... 2007 s hottest ... NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ... Or even prior to 1200 -- say 1000 BC to 900 AD? Some of us (myself, for example) are interested in the
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 8, 2007
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                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, atruemark@... wrote:
                              >
                              .... Anyone out there a specialist in European tool
                              > technology from about 1200 to 1500 A.D.?
                              >
                              > Andras
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > **************************************Check out AOL's list of
                              2007's hottest
                              > products.
                              > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?
                              NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >


                              Or even prior to 1200 -- say 1000 BC to 900 AD? Some of us (myself,
                              for example) are interested in the earlier time periods... And I, for
                              one, do not have access to a large library system (I do purchase
                              books when I can), as do most people who live in large cities. (Yes,
                              there is the Inter-Library Loan System, but it can be really hard to
                              learn what you need when the book has to be returned within two
                              weeks... and internet access is limited most of the time - when it is
                              affordable)

                              Just a thought.

                              --Artúr
                            • Eadric Anstapa
                              I dont think we know exactly. It seems as if it was such common knowledge it didn t seem worth recording. We do know that they were highly skilled and had
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 9, 2007
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                                I dont think we know exactly. It seems as if it was such common
                                knowledge it didn't seem worth recording. We do know that they were
                                highly skilled and had most any hand tool you have today. That includes
                                sharp knives, saws, files, and drills. Any of those tools likely would
                                have been used by various folks at various times in period. No doubt
                                different cultures and different eras within the period covered by the
                                SCA had different preferred methods. Something like a hacksaw blade is
                                not too unperiod of a tool as they had very thin and fine toothed saw
                                blades.

                                While we don't necessarily know how it was done in SCA period Europe we
                                do know how it is done by primitive cultures today and how it was done
                                by Native Americans. Native American arrows, along with many other
                                cultures that used a pinch grip, had a V cut or flared nock that it
                                easily cut with a sharp knife. The Powhatan indians abraded the nocks
                                into their arrows with a beaver tooth attached to a haft.

                                For primitive arrow making techniques look at
                                Cherokee Bows and Arrows by Al Herrin
                                Making Indian Bows and Arrows, The Old Way, by Doug Wallentine
                                or
                                Making Arrows the Old Way!!, by Doug Wallentine
                                Bows and Arrows of the Native Americans, by Jim Hamm

                                Regards,

                                -Eadric

                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "ld.blackmoon" <ld.blackmoon@...> wrote:

                                > i've seen lots of articles on how to make period self nocks using 1: a nifty nocker,2: hacksaw blades, 3: a dremil tool ,but none using a period tool, or technique . any idea
                                > where to look to find such an article ?? or perhaps pictures ? diagrams ?be safe, be happy, have fun
                                > arthur blackmoon
                                >
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