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Re: Good arrows and bows.... and strings....

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  • Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
    And you are welcome to disagree. Not only my research, but my experience as well has driven me to make that comment. What I did not include was the rest of
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 5, 2007
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      And you are welcome to disagree. Not only my research, but my experience as well
      has driven me to make that comment.

      What I did not include was the rest of variables that make up that comment: limb
      tip speed, string speed...etc.

      I put a new string on my longbow a couple weeks ago, and instantly created more
      handshock. Why? Because my old string was made from some stuff called "S40" (it
      was about 7 years old). S40 was made from Spectra and Vectran. Spectra cannot be
      had anymore, as the mundane government like it's properties so well. So we are
      left with Vectran.

      At any rate, Vectran let me shoot a much lighter string than B-50.... much
      faster. This came to the forefront when the only string material I had was B50,
      so I made a string from it. It is too slow, slows down my limb tips and does not
      transfer the energy to the arrows like it did before. I had virtually no
      handshock in my bow.. but I do now. I just hope that FastFlight+ gives that back,
      otherwise I need to lighten my arrows.

      I still stand by my statement.

      Godwin
      >
      >
      >I'm a staunch believer in this: "no handshock = matched equipment"
      >
      >
      >
      >I must disagree. My research in building bows indicates to me that certain
      materials and designs either increase or decrease the likelihood of handshock, i.e.
      >
      > recurves tend to have less handshock than a longbow, bamboo has less than oak,
      composites have less than self bows. Is it possible to *reduce* handshock by
      making sure your arrows are matched in spine and weight to your bow? Absolutely,
      and it might even be possible to reduce it enough in an oak longbow that is
      negligible, not even really noticable to you once you're used to it, and of
      course I agree that having arrows that are too heavy *or* too light for your bow
      can cause more handshock, but I've never shot a true longbow that didn't have
      some handshock. Believe me, I'd love to find one, I have CTS, so for me
      handshock *hurts*. If your bow gives you no shock whatsoever, I'd love to try it
      sometime and find out how you made it.
      >
      >
      >
      >Morgan Blaidd Du,
      >
      >mka Morgan Wolf

      ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net
    • morgan wolf
      Let me start by saying that I consider this to be a reasoned discourse between two knowledgeable gentlemen, observed by various interested parties, much like a
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 5, 2007
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        Let me start by saying that I consider this to be a reasoned discourse between two knowledgeable gentlemen, observed by various interested parties, much like a polite debate at a cocktail party. I believe that discussions like this one are of great benefit to all archers on the list, and are one of the primary purposes for this list to exist (but hey, correct me if I'm wrong).
        I, personally at least, am not irate, angered, or offended in any way, and I hope the same is true on your side. We have, unfortunately, had discussions like this go horribly awry in the past, with others "stepping in to cool (us both) down". If we both see this discussion in the same light, please read my response at the end of your comments. If you do feel this is anything like a personal attack, please accept my apology, that was not my intent at all, let me know you saw it as such either here or in private, and read no further.

        Morgan Blaidd Du,
        mka Morgan Wolf
        Damn Vicar Archery and Stuff
        www.damnvicar.com
        damnvicar@...



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil <archergodwin@...>
        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2007 9:50:35 AM
        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Good arrows and bows.... and strings....

        And you are welcome to disagree. Not only my research, but my experience as well
        has driven me to make that comment.

        What I did not include was the rest of variables that make up that comment: limb
        tip speed, string speed...etc.

        I put a new string on my longbow a couple weeks ago, and instantly created more
        handshock. Why? Because my old string was made from some stuff called "S40" (it
        was about 7 years old). S40 was made from Spectra and Vectran. Spectra cannot be
        had anymore, as the mundane government like it's properties so well. So we are
        left with Vectran.

        At any rate, Vectran let me shoot a much lighter string than B-50.... much
        faster. This came to the forefront when the only string material I had was B50,
        so I made a string from it. It is too slow, slows down my limb tips and does not
        transfer the energy to the arrows like it did before. I had virtually no
        handshock in my bow.. but I do now. I just hope that FastFlight+ gives that back,
        otherwise I need to lighten my arrows.

        I still stand by my statement.

        Godwin
        >
        >
        >I'm a staunch believer in this: "no handshock = matched equipment"

        But, as I see it, you've made my point, in stating that it is the difference in string material that makes the difference in handshock. Changing string material to FastFlight Plus(tm) or TS-1 (tm) absolutely does increase limb speed and limbshock, to the point that retailers of those string materials have a "check with manufacturer" disclaimer, since the string can cause limbs, especially un-reinforced tips, to crack or outright break because of the increased speed and shock in a more condensed area of the bow (smaller diameter string, which these are, = less surface contact, = more strain on contact surfaces). The shock you're getting now has alwasy been there, it is just carrying further down the bow because of the different string, the smaller string created higher speeds and focused the shock more in your tips and limbs, making what little actually reaches the grip area negligible. Were you to go to an even thicker string, such as hemp or linen,
        you would probably have yet more shock making it all the way to your hand. Thus, I reiterate, by choosing specific materials one reduces or increases the amount of shock reaching the hand, but the shock is always there at some level. I do apologize for not making note in my previous post that string material, as well as bow style and construction material, plays a large part in how much shock actually reaches the hand.

        Perhaps we can both agree that the shock itself is always present, but that by tuning your equipment, *including your string*, one can drastically reduce the amount of shock that is felt *in the hand*?



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      • morgan wolf
        Holy ##$%#^*! We actually came to an agreement in an email discussion, we should forward this to the Sagittarii List, and also print and frame it! ... Morgan
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 15, 2007
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          Holy ##$%#^*! We actually came to an agreement in an email discussion, we should forward this to the Sagittarii List, and also print and frame it!

          :-D

          Morgan Blaidd Du,
          mka Morgan Wolf
          Damn Vicar Archery and Stuff
          www.damnvicar.com
          damnvicar@...



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil <archergodwin@...>
          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:36:57 AM
          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Good arrows and bows.... and strings....

          Yes, I do agree that there is a certain amount of shock always present. I guess
          with further discussion, brings out more variables that we have a different
          recesses of the logic mind.

          I also, 'listen' to the bow. When shooting with the Vectran/Spectra mix string,
          my bow was very quiet - to the point of other people making comment about just
          how quiet it was. I guess I didn't realize just how big the impact would be in
          changing string material - but upon thinking about the physics of it, it makes
          perfect sense.

          The bow this is about, is a horn tipped, hickory backed yew of 62#. 72" nock to nock.

          And I think we're saying basically the same thing. Conversations like this are
          good - they make you think, and also mull over what you believe to be true.

          Godwin



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        • Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
          Yes, I do agree that there is a certain amount of shock always present. I guess with further discussion, brings out more variables that we have a different
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 15, 2007
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            Yes, I do agree that there is a certain amount of shock always present. I guess
            with further discussion, brings out more variables that we have a different
            recesses of the logic mind.

            I also, 'listen' to the bow. When shooting with the Vectran/Spectra mix string,
            my bow was very quiet - to the point of other people making comment about just
            how quiet it was. I guess I didn't realize just how big the impact would be in
            changing string material - but upon thinking about the physics of it, it makes
            perfect sense.

            The bow this is about, is a horn tipped, hickory backed yew of 62#. 72" nock to nock.

            And I think we're saying basically the same thing. Conversations like this are
            good - they make you think, and also mull over what you believe to be true.

            Godwin


            >>I'm a staunch believer in this: "no handshock = matched equipment"
            >
            >
            >
            >But, as I see it, you've made my point, in stating that it is the difference in
            string material that makes the difference in handshock. Changing string material
            to FastFlight Plus(tm) or TS-1 (tm) absolutely does increase limb speed and
            limbshock, to the point that retailers of those string materials have a "check
            with manufacturer" disclaimer, since the string can cause limbs, especially
            un-reinforced tips, to crack or outright break because of the increased speed and
            shock in a more condensed area of the bow (smaller diameter string, which these
            are, = less surface contact, = more strain on contact surfaces). The shock
            you're getting now has alwasy been there, it is just carrying further down the
            bow because of the different string, the smaller string created higher speeds and
            focused the shock more in your tips and limbs, making what little actually
            reaches the grip area negligible. Were you to go to an even thicker string, such
            as hemp or linen,
            >
            > you would probably have yet more shock making it all the way to your hand.
            Thus, I reiterate, by choosing specific materials one reduces or increases the
            amount of shock reaching the hand, but the shock is always there at some level.
            I do apologize for not making note in my previous post that string material, as
            well as bow style and construction material, plays a large part in how much shock
            actually reaches the hand.
            >

            >Perhaps we can both agree that the shock itself is always present, but that by
            tuning your equipment, *including your string*, one can drastically reduce the
            amount of shock that is felt *in the hand*?

            ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net
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